Brexit

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Brexit

Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 8:51 pm

Galted wrote:It will stop foreigners praying in our mosques.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 9:49 pm

Muscular-mouse wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:Can some Brexit supporters please tell me what good has come from brexit? Will it make the UK richer? Will it create more home grown talent? I mean without using soundbites such as 'taking back control' or whatever nonsense politicians use what good do you think brexit will do to the UK.

Brexit hasn't happened yet.

Which is my point, you voted for brexit in order to achieve what? WHat positive outcomes will the UK achieve from brexit?

1) Supremacy of law-making power, thus increasing democratic control.
2) A supreme judicial system, and an end to the European Arrest Warrant.
3) Full control of immigration, so an equal system can be developed for all potential migrants, rather than having a preference for EU over non-EU.
4) Freedom for the UK to control its own trade policy.
5) Full control of the UK’s fishing waters.
6) Saving a net figure of around £8.5 billion a year.
7) Ensuring the UK doesn’t sign up to an EU army.
8) Getting the UK out of the Common Agricultural Policy.

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Re: Brexit

Post by catchweight on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:00 pm

The price paid for these things, is likely to far outweigh the benefits though. And there is in not, and never really has been a meaningful plan to deliver them or extract from the EU in way that is not going to create a monster of a mess.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:11 pm

catchweight wrote:The price paid for these things, is likely to far outweigh the benefits though. And there is in not, and never really has been a meaningful plan to deliver them or extract from the EU in way that is not going to create a monster of a mess.

There has been no meaningful plan because the governing Tory party support the EU and are in no real wish to deliver upon Brexit. Cameron, also, was arrogant to the point of foolish in believing the Leave side would not carry the day, and reneged on a promise to trigger Article 50 on June 24.

Equally, there is no real opposition to this from the Labour Party, as around 95% of their MPs support the EU.

Parliament is very detached from the ‘will of the people’ (not my favourite phrase) on several issues, so all this is, of course, of no real surprise.

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Re: Brexit

Post by catchweight on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:18 pm

Not really. There is no real plan becaue there just never was one to begin with. The Brexit campaig never had one beyond it ill be alright on the night kind of stuff. Reckless and irresponsible. This should have been in place before and during the campaign. Not an afterthought to the election result.


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Re: Brexit

Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 10:42 pm

You own your economy....Always been the case from great Men who were unlucky like Grover Cleveland to slime like George Bush Sr.

Labour need to just sit back and watch the next few years..

The Tories own Brexit..Good luck to them.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Muscular-mouse on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 11:02 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:Can some Brexit supporters please tell me what good has come from brexit? Will it make the UK richer? Will it create more home grown talent? I mean without using soundbites such as 'taking back control' or whatever nonsense politicians use what good do you think brexit will do to the UK.

Brexit hasn't happened yet.

Which is my point, you voted for brexit in order to achieve what? WHat positive outcomes will the UK achieve from brexit?

1) Supremacy of law-making power, thus increasing democratic control.
2) A supreme judicial system, and an end to the European Arrest Warrant.
3) Full control of immigration, so an equal system can be developed for all potential migrants, rather than having a preference for EU over non-EU.
4) Freedom for the UK to control its own trade policy.
5) Full control of the UK’s fishing waters.
6) Saving a net figure of around £8.5 billion a year.
7) Ensuring the UK doesn’t sign up to an EU army.
8) Getting the UK out of the Common Agricultural Policy.

I will just touch on a few of those points.

3) why don't you campaign for free movement of NON-EU citizens as well if you are so against eu citizens having an advantage? Don't try to mask your dislike of immigration by pretending that you want to end free movement of EU citizens because for eg Indians or Chinese don't have free movement.

4) what deals do you expect to be better than the ones we already have? Easy to say we can control our trade police but what does that entail? Will we get better deals? Doesn't seem like we will so far.

6) I think we all know that we will lose money by not being in the EU.

7) we had a veto for the EU army so we would never have agreed to it if we didn't want to.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Ent on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 11:06 pm

Duty is a abut of a racist who believes if you aren't white you aren't British.

He'll say any nonsense to justify his position.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 11:41 pm

catchweight wrote:Not really. There is no real plan becaue there just never was one to begin with. The Brexit campaig never had one beyond it ill be alright on the night kind of stuff. Reckless and irresponsible. This should have been in place before and during the campaign. Not an afterthought to the election result.


Whilst I certainly disliked the official Vote Leave campaign, the referendum wasn’t like a General Election where the winning side are then given a position to implement what they want.

Vote Leave were just a campaign group. Nothing more. The only ones in position to make the changes desired are the government.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 11:47 pm

I
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:Can some Brexit supporters please tell me what good has come from brexit? Will it make the UK richer? Will it create more home grown talent? I mean without using soundbites such as 'taking back control' or whatever nonsense politicians use what good do you think brexit will do to the UK.

Brexit hasn't happened yet.

Which is my point, you voted for brexit in order to achieve what? WHat positive outcomes will the UK achieve from brexit?

1) Supremacy of law-making power, thus increasing democratic control.
2) A supreme judicial system, and an end to the European Arrest Warrant.
3) Full control of immigration, so an equal system can be developed for all potential migrants, rather than having a preference for EU over non-EU.
4) Freedom for the UK to control its own trade policy.
5) Full control of the UK’s fishing waters.
6) Saving a net figure of around £8.5 billion a year.
7) Ensuring the UK doesn’t sign up to an EU army.
8) Getting the UK out of the Common Agricultural Policy.

I will just touch on a few of those points.

3) why don't you campaign for free movement of NON-EU citizens as well if you are so against eu citizens having an advantage? Don't try to mask your dislike of immigration by pretending that you want to end free movement of EU citizens because for eg Indians or Chinese don't have free movement.

4) what deals do you expect to be better than the ones we already have? Easy to say we can control our trade police but what does that entail? Will we get better deals? Doesn't seem like we will so far.

6) I think we all know that we will lose money by not being in the EU.

7) we had a veto for the EU army so we would never have agreed to it if we didn't want to.

3) Total free movement would be absolute anarchy. You have to have a system in place to maximise the benefits of immigration. And no, I don’t dislike immigration, please don’t invent things to support your point.

4) Free trade deals with any of the 30+ countries who’ve indicated since last year that they want one with the UK for a start! The EU has, historically, proven itself to be very poor in negotiating trade arrangements.

6) Not at all.

7) True, but is there any guarantee the government would use such a veto? This referendum was pretty much the only chance for an ordinary person like you or I to vote against the UK’s involvement in the EU army, as such an issue doesn’t seem to crop up in General Elections.


Last edited by Duty281 on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 11:51 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 11:49 pm

Ent wrote:Duty is a abut of a racist who believes if you aren't white you aren't British.

He'll say any nonsense to justify his position.

Absolute drivel. Of course you can be non-white and British e.g. Maro Itoje, Anthony Joshua, Theo Walcott or Mo Farah.

Very telling that your response to some actual points about Brexit is to come out with this garbage.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Muscular-mouse on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 12:39 am

Duty281 wrote:I
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:Can some Brexit supporters please tell me what good has come from brexit? Will it make the UK richer? Will it create more home grown talent? I mean without using soundbites such as 'taking back control' or whatever nonsense politicians use what good do you think brexit will do to the UK.

Brexit hasn't happened yet.

Which is my point, you voted for brexit in order to achieve what? WHat positive outcomes will the UK achieve from brexit?

1) Supremacy of law-making power, thus increasing democratic control.
2) A supreme judicial system, and an end to the European Arrest Warrant.
3) Full control of immigration, so an equal system can be developed for all potential migrants, rather than having a preference for EU over non-EU.
4) Freedom for the UK to control its own trade policy.
5) Full control of the UK’s fishing waters.
6) Saving a net figure of around £8.5 billion a year.
7) Ensuring the UK doesn’t sign up to an EU army.
8) Getting the UK out of the Common Agricultural Policy.

I will just touch on a few of those points.

3) why don't you campaign for free movement of NON-EU citizens as well if you are so against eu citizens having an advantage? Don't try to mask your dislike of immigration by pretending that you want to end free movement of EU citizens because for eg Indians or Chinese don't have free movement.

4) what deals do you expect to be better than the ones we already have? Easy to say we can control our trade police but what does that entail? Will we get better deals? Doesn't seem like we will so far.

6) I think we all know that we will lose money by not being in the EU.

7) we had a veto for the EU army so we would never have agreed to it if we didn't want to.

3) Total free movement would be absolute anarchy. You have to have a system in place to maximise the benefits of immigration. And no, I don’t dislike immigration, please don’t invent things to support your point.

4) Free trade deals with any of the 30+ countries who’ve indicated since last year that they want one with the UK for a start! The EU has, historically, proven itself to be very poor in negotiating trade arrangements.

6) Not at all.

7) True, but is there any guarantee the government would use such a veto? This referendum was pretty much the only chance for an ordinary person like you or I to vote against the UK’s involvement in the EU army, as such an issue doesn’t seem to crop up in General Elections.

3) Stop lying, you don't want to end free movement for eu citizens because non-eu citizen don't have free movement. You want to end free movement for eu citizen because you don't like immigration from eu countries. If you cared so much about the job prospects in the uk for indian or Chinese or African migrants you would be arguing for greater immigration powers for those people and less visa restrictions but you are not. You are using them as a pawn in your argument to remove free movement for eu citizens.

4) of course those countries want trade deals with the UK and I am sure the number should be higher than 30 but that doesn't mean anything. That doesn't indicate we would get a better deal, and the negotiations with bombardier and the USA indicate that. At least with the uk we had 600 million citizens and collectively the biggest economy negotiating to get the best deal and now we have 1 country with 65 million people so of course we cant get as good a deal.

7) Personally I see nothing wrong with the EU army, all it was closer integration a bit like Nato but for the EU. But the decision would always rest with the government and as such would be OUR decision as we elect who is in power.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Muscular-mouse on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 12:46 am

Duty281 wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:Can some Brexit supporters please tell me what good has come from brexit? Will it make the UK richer? Will it create more home grown talent? I mean without using soundbites such as 'taking back control' or whatever nonsense politicians use what good do you think brexit will do to the UK.

Brexit hasn't happened yet.

Which is my point, you voted for brexit in order to achieve what? WHat positive outcomes will the UK achieve from brexit?

1) Supremacy of law-making power, thus increasing democratic control.
2) A supreme judicial system, and an end to the European Arrest Warrant.
3) Full control of immigration, so an equal system can be developed for all potential migrants, rather than having a preference for EU over non-EU.
4) Freedom for the UK to control its own trade policy.
5) Full control of the UK’s fishing waters.
6) Saving a net figure of around £8.5 billion a year.
7) Ensuring the UK doesn’t sign up to an EU army.
8) Getting the UK out of the Common Agricultural Policy.

1) UK laws have always been supreme, hence why we could vote in parliament to leave the EU and remove all of their laws. If UK law was not supreme then we wouldn't be able to vote to leave the EU and legally remove all of their laws.


But what you are doing is listing sound bites that sound good on the surface but in reality have little substance. I was hoping for a bit more meat on the bone to be honest.
I'm surprised you haven't listed £350 million for the nhs as point 9

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Re: Brexit

Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 7:21 am

1. The reason the EU isn't wholly democratic is because they don't have enough power - by our own design. Democratic accountability is required where there is power - where there is little (granted by mutual consent by our democratically elected representative) power theres a limit to how democratic you can be without being overly bureaucratic for no benefit. As for control over our laws - the only laws the EU has supremacy over are ones we've granted them competence over for the benefit of the trading might of 500m relatively rich customers.
2. Our Judicial sovereignty is only handed over in relation to the above, in certain key areas where we've agreed to hand over competence to prevent abuse within the system and undercutting each other. In most instances, the ECJ doesn't get involved and the one you probably have an issue with - ECHR, we aren't leaving that any time soon, if ever.
3. Love sacks. We have agreements on immigration from nations whom we derive big benefits from or would have benefited from in future
4. I think you're going to find how insignificant the UK really is soon enough and how little power we have against the economies of scale of other nations
5. Technically, but most of it is sold to Europe so what's going to happen is that we're going to attract tarriffs from our biggest market and the people who've already own contracts are going to keep theirs seeing as british businessmen sold it to them. Once those quotas run out, the British government will sell the fishermen down the river (pun intended) to get concessions in other areas. Essentially, exactly what happened when we joined the EEC, the fishermen were leveraged as one of our few assets for concession in other areas.
6. Won't be saving sh*t, first we'll be paying off the divorce bill and some RAL commitments for years to come and we'll have to replace all the funding in the UK for a while, by then we will have lost out far more in trade to the EU replaced by trade to developing nations who will destroy our agriculture and food security - unless we keep funding our agriculture and fall foul of the WTO - thus stunting our exports.
7. The UK contributes to a NATO army and an EU army wouldn't be much different, relying on the Yanks to save us just won't cut it anymore. Even then we would have to have a referendum if we wanted to be part of it or give any further competences to the EU so the nation could choose whether or not it wanted to without having to leave the trading bloc.
8. We would have to replace the cap with our own funding or get destroyed by the other competition and adhere to rules made by them, rather than making them adhere to ours. This isn't a tea party where they all get together and agree to buy each others stuff, this is a vicious business and any nation would be negligent not to rip us a new one. When New Zealand and Australia are chomping at the bit waiting for the axe to fall, then you know it's game over. The name of the game is regulatory convergence - better regulation makes for frictionless trading , hence why every other bloc in the world save the US and China is copying the EU model as much as they can. Unfortunately for us WTO rules make it so that the EU can't do us favours and leave us outside of their extended customs search process - I think we're going to lose a lot of stock to delays at the border and the BIPS.

You think you've cracked it but there's a reason why Britain begged to join the EEC and you'll spend the rest of your life disavowing responsibility or convincing yourself how life is better now we're out of the EU. The reality is unless the government fudges it, we are f*cked. Maybe in 30 years time we will get back to where we are now, but when the pharmaceutical industry is considering relocation you know how bad it is going to be. Britain is the world leader in R&D in pharmaceutical and chemical development, putting out much more than than the relatively low funding would suggest. For them to flee would be the death knell.

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Re: Brexit

Post by catchweight on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 7:50 am

There is a realistic chance of a corbyn labour governmemt now also which combined with the effects of brexit could send the uk back to the 1970s. More soverignty and control will be scant consolation.

The brexit campaign was extremelly reckless. No regard at all given to the practicalities and pragmatism of leaving the eu.

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Re: Brexit

Post by LionsV2 on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 7:56 am

Duty

I wouldn't bother wasting your time if I was you, no matter what you say you'll be accused of racism by Muscular_Mouse (aka champagne_socialist) and all you'll get from everyone else is negativity because the vote didn't go their way.

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Re: Brexit

Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 8:15 am


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Re: Brexit

Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 8:33 am

ShahenshahG wrote:Are you a DUP MC Hammer?

Fixed for you.

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Re: Brexit

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 8:37 am

LionsV2 wrote:Duty

I wouldn't bother wasting your time if I was you, no matter what you say you'll be accused of racism by Muscular_Mouse (aka champagne_socialist) and all you'll get from everyone else is negativity because the vote didn't go their way.
Can we not start this up again please? I see nothing of issue to act on at the moment and just because (it appears that) there's more anti-Brexit commenters just now, doesn't really justify your comment above. You'll just have to deal with it and come up with some decent arguments/evidence. Duty's certainly never been cowed by people disagreeing...
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Re: Brexit

Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 8:40 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Are you a DUP MC Hammer?

Fixed for you.

Laugh

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Re: Brexit

Post by Galted on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 9:00 am

ShahenshahG wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Are you a DUP MC Hammer?

Fixed for you.

Laugh

Laugh

U can't touch Julius when it comes to plays on words.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Scottrf on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 9:01 am

Is this the part where we do puns with all of his other famous songs? Oh wait...

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Re: Brexit

Post by Galted on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 9:24 am

Scottrf wrote:Is this the part where we do puns with all of his other famous songs? Oh wait...

I'll never understand why he gave up his singing career so quickly, I'd always thought he was too legit to quit.
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Re: Brexit

Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 9:34 am

Galted wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Is this the part where we do puns with all of his other famous songs? Oh wait...

I'll never understand why he gave up his singing career so quickly, I'd always thought he was too legit to quit.

He was too cool for the establishment, they had to turn this mutha out

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Re: Brexit

Post by rick_dagless on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 9:39 am

ShahenshahG wrote:
Galted wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Is this the part where we do puns with all of his other famous songs? Oh wait...

I'll never understand why he gave up his singing career so quickly, I'd always thought he was too legit to quit.

He was too cool for the establishment, they had to turn this mutha out

I guess we just have to Pray for his return

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Re: Brexit

Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 9:41 am

rick_dagless wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
Galted wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Is this the part where we do puns with all of his other famous songs? Oh wait...

I'll never understand why he gave up his singing career so quickly, I'd always thought he was too legit to quit.

He was too cool for the establishment, they had to turn this mutha out

I guess we just have to Pray for his return

This is gaining momentum.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Galted on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 9:46 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:
rick_dagless wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
Galted wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Is this the part where we do puns with all of his other famous songs? Oh wait...

I'll never understand why he gave up his singing career so quickly, I'd always thought he was too legit to quit.

He was too cool for the establishment, they had to turn this mutha out

I guess we just have to Pray for his return

This is gaining momentum.

That's what I said.
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Re: Brexit

Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 10:01 am

Galted wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
rick_dagless wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
Galted wrote:
Scottrf wrote:Is this the part where we do puns with all of his other famous songs? Oh wait...

I'll never understand why he gave up his singing career so quickly, I'd always thought he was too legit to quit.

He was too cool for the establishment, they had to turn this mutha out

I guess we just have to Pray for his return

This is gaining momentum.

That's what I said.

If he continues in this vein he won't need to pump it up

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Re: Brexit

Post by Scottrf on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 10:07 am

I think that was Joe Budden...

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Re: Brexit

Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 10:13 am

Scottrf wrote:I think that was Joe Budden...

Well, he's only human.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Galted on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 10:17 am

Trust Shah to get the Wrong One.
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Re: Brexit

Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 10:31 am

Scottrf wrote:I think that was Joe Budden...

No Mc hammer did as well but thanks for putting Joe Budden in the mix

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Re: Brexit

Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 10:32 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:
Scottrf wrote:I think that was Joe Budden...

Well, he's only human.

Laugh Genius

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Re: Brexit

Post by Scottrf on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 10:36 am

ShahenshahG wrote:
Scottrf wrote:I think that was Joe Budden...

No Mc hammer did as well but thanks for putting Joe Budden in the mix

I couldn't help it.

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Re: Brexit

Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 10:36 am

ShahenshahG wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
Scottrf wrote:I think that was Joe Budden...

Well, he's only human.

Laugh Genius

We're all playing our part.

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Re: Brexit

Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 10:42 am

Scottrf wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
Scottrf wrote:I think that was Joe Budden...

No Mc hammer did as well but thanks for putting Joe Budden in the mix

I couldn't help it.

Well I suppose you have to go for other forms of entertainment if she don't put it down

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Re: Brexit

Post by Ent on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 11:19 am

Duty281 wrote:
Ent wrote:Duty is a abut of a racist who believes if you aren't white you aren't British.

He'll say any nonsense to justify his position.

Absolute drivel. Of course you can be non-white and British e.g. Maro Itoje, Anthony Joshua, Theo Walcott or Mo Farah.

Very telling that your response to some actual points about Brexit is to come out with this garbage.

Not proper British though, remember the quote? Remember the bans you had for your continuing racist statements. People remember and know what you are all about.

The actual points about leaving the eu are nonsense and have been continually rebuffed.

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Re: Brexit

Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 11:30 am

Ent wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Ent wrote:Duty is a abut of a racist who believes if you aren't white you aren't British.

He'll say any nonsense to justify his position.

Absolute drivel. Of course you can be non-white and British e.g. Maro Itoje, Anthony Joshua, Theo Walcott or Mo Farah.

Very telling that your response to some actual points about Brexit is to come out with this garbage.

Not proper British though, remember the quote? Remember the bans you had for your continuing racist statements. People remember and know what you are all about.

The actual points about leaving the eu are nonsense and have been continually rebuffed.

That's not MC Hammer. Is it from the upcoming Morrissey album?

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Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 11:31 am

Muscular-mouse wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:Can some Brexit supporters please tell me what good has come from brexit? Will it make the UK richer? Will it create more home grown talent? I mean without using soundbites such as 'taking back control' or whatever nonsense politicians use what good do you think brexit will do to the UK.

Brexit hasn't happened yet.

Which is my point, you voted for brexit in order to achieve what? WHat positive outcomes will the UK achieve from brexit?

1) Supremacy of law-making power, thus increasing democratic control.
2) A supreme judicial system, and an end to the European Arrest Warrant.
3) Full control of immigration, so an equal system can be developed for all potential migrants, rather than having a preference for EU over non-EU.
4) Freedom for the UK to control its own trade policy.
5) Full control of the UK’s fishing waters.
6) Saving a net figure of around £8.5 billion a year.
7) Ensuring the UK doesn’t sign up to an EU army.
8) Getting the UK out of the Common Agricultural Policy.

I will just touch on a few of those points.

3) why don't you campaign for free movement of NON-EU citizens as well if you are so against eu citizens having an advantage? Don't try to mask your dislike of immigration by pretending that you want to end free movement of EU citizens because for eg Indians or Chinese don't have free movement.

4) what deals do you expect to be better than the ones we already have? Easy to say we can control our trade police but what does that entail? Will we get better deals? Doesn't seem like we will so far.

6) I think we all know that we will lose money by not being in the EU.

7) we had a veto for the EU army so we would never have agreed to it if we didn't want to.

3) Total free movement would be absolute anarchy. You have to have a system in place to maximise the benefits of immigration. And no, I don’t dislike immigration, please don’t invent things to support your point.

4) Free trade deals with any of the 30+ countries who’ve indicated since last year that they want one with the UK for a start! The EU has, historically, proven itself to be very poor in negotiating trade arrangements.

6) Not at all.

7) True, but is there any guarantee the government would use such a veto? This referendum was pretty much the only chance for an ordinary person like you or I to vote against the UK’s involvement in the EU army, as such an issue doesn’t seem to crop up in General Elections.

3) Stop lying, you don't want to end free movement for eu citizens because non-eu citizen don't have free movement. You want to end free movement for eu citizen because you don't like immigration from eu countries. If you cared so much about the job prospects in the uk for indian or Chinese or African migrants you would be arguing for greater immigration powers for those people and less visa restrictions but you are not. You are using them as a pawn in your argument to remove free movement for eu citizens.

4) of course those countries want trade deals with the UK and I am sure the number should be higher than 30 but that doesn't mean anything. That doesn't indicate we would get a better deal, and the negotiations with bombardier and the USA indicate that. At least with the uk we had 600 million citizens and collectively the biggest economy negotiating to get the best deal and now we have 1 country with 65 million people so of course we cant get as good a deal.

7) Personally I see nothing wrong with the EU army, all it was closer integration a bit like Nato but for the EU. But the decision would always rest with the government and as such would be OUR decision as we elect who is in power.

3) I'm not lying. And, yes, I certainly do want a looser cap on skilled immigration.

4) Well, in this case of the US, we currently don't have a trade deal!

7) But this issue doesn't crop up in General Elections, so remains an unknown.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 11:33 am

Muscular-mouse wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Muscular-mouse wrote:Can some Brexit supporters please tell me what good has come from brexit? Will it make the UK richer? Will it create more home grown talent? I mean without using soundbites such as 'taking back control' or whatever nonsense politicians use what good do you think brexit will do to the UK.

Brexit hasn't happened yet.

Which is my point, you voted for brexit in order to achieve what? WHat positive outcomes will the UK achieve from brexit?

1) Supremacy of law-making power, thus increasing democratic control.
2) A supreme judicial system, and an end to the European Arrest Warrant.
3) Full control of immigration, so an equal system can be developed for all potential migrants, rather than having a preference for EU over non-EU.
4) Freedom for the UK to control its own trade policy.
5) Full control of the UK’s fishing waters.
6) Saving a net figure of around £8.5 billion a year.
7) Ensuring the UK doesn’t sign up to an EU army.
8) Getting the UK out of the Common Agricultural Policy.

1) UK laws have always been supreme, hence why we could vote in parliament to leave the EU and remove all of their laws. If UK law was not supreme then we wouldn't be able to vote to leave the EU and legally remove all of their laws.


But what you are doing is listing sound bites that sound good on the surface but in reality have little substance. I was hoping for a bit more meat on the bone to be honest.
I'm surprised you haven't listed £350 million for the nhs as point 9

Texas can leave the USA if it wants - does that mean Texan law is supreme? Of course not. The European Communities Act 1972 and the case of Factortame underline that, whilst the UK is a member of the EU, it has to accept the supremacy of EU law over UK law.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 11:50 am

ShahenshahG wrote:You think you've cracked it but there's a reason why Britain begged to join the EEC and you'll spend the rest of your life disavowing responsibility or convincing yourself how life is better now we're out of the EU.

If the EU is so wonderful I cannot help but wonder how it is that 160-odd countries manage to survive outside of it? Or why youth unemployment is so high? Or why anti-EU parties in many parts of the continent are on the rise? Or why the growth in the Eurozone is so stagnant? Or why they struggle to firm up various trade deals? Or why they are so bereft of quality leadership? Or why the complicated bureaucracy of the EU is not cloned across the world?

I proudly voted for Brexit. I proudly campaigned for many days and nights and weeks and months for it. That will never change. thumbsup

And yes, life will certainly be better outside the EU.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 11:52 am

Ent wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Ent wrote:Duty is a abut of a racist who believes if you aren't white you aren't British.

He'll say any nonsense to justify his position.

Absolute drivel. Of course you can be non-white and British e.g. Maro Itoje, Anthony Joshua, Theo Walcott or Mo Farah.

Very telling that your response to some actual points about Brexit is to come out with this garbage.

Not proper British though, remember the quote? Remember the bans you had for your continuing racist statements. People remember and know what you are all about.

The actual points about leaving the eu are nonsense and have been continually rebuffed.

You mean you disagree with the points.

And of course they're 'proper British' - whatever that is. I've never been banned for racism. Slander, yes! Upsetting folk, yes! Being on the wind-up, yes! Bloody belligerence, yes! But never racism.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Hero on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 12:08 pm

*Goes back to check ban logs....

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Re: Brexit

Post by LionsV2 on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 12:10 pm

Duty281 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:You think you've cracked it but there's a reason why Britain begged to join the EEC and you'll spend the rest of your life disavowing responsibility or convincing yourself how life is better now we're out of the EU.

If the EU is so wonderful I cannot help but wonder how it is that 160-odd countries manage to survive outside of it? Or why youth unemployment is so high? Or why anti-EU parties in many parts of the continent are on the rise? Or why the growth in the Eurozone is so stagnant? Or why they struggle to firm up various trade deals? Or why they are so bereft of quality leadership? Or why the complicated bureaucracy of the EU is not cloned across the world?

I proudly voted for Brexit. I proudly campaigned for many days and nights and weeks and months for it. That will never change.  thumbsup

And yes, life will certainly be better outside the EU.

Spot on Duty, the EU doesn't have trade agreements with anyone and the ECJ is abhorrent to me, blocking the extradition of known terrorists on torture grounds. The EU would work if it were a select group of the strongest economies in Europe, there is something to gain from being in cahoots with Germany and France but the former eastern block are simply parasites on our economy, we gain nothing from them.

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Re: Brexit

Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 12:13 pm

LionsV2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:You think you've cracked it but there's a reason why Britain begged to join the EEC and you'll spend the rest of your life disavowing responsibility or convincing yourself how life is better now we're out of the EU.

If the EU is so wonderful I cannot help but wonder how it is that 160-odd countries manage to survive outside of it? Or why youth unemployment is so high? Or why anti-EU parties in many parts of the continent are on the rise? Or why the growth in the Eurozone is so stagnant? Or why they struggle to firm up various trade deals? Or why they are so bereft of quality leadership? Or why the complicated bureaucracy of the EU is not cloned across the world?

I proudly voted for Brexit. I proudly campaigned for many days and nights and weeks and months for it. That will never change.  thumbsup

And yes, life will certainly be better outside the EU.

Spot on Duty, the EU doesn't have trade agreements with anyone and the ECJ is abhorrent to me, blocking the extradition of known terrorists on torture grounds. The EU would work if it were a select group of the strongest economies in Europe, there is something to gain from being in cahoots with Germany and France but the former eastern block are simply parasites on our economy, we gain nothing from them.

I feel the same way about the North.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Galted on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 12:23 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
LionsV2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:You think you've cracked it but there's a reason why Britain begged to join the EEC and you'll spend the rest of your life disavowing responsibility or convincing yourself how life is better now we're out of the EU.

If the EU is so wonderful I cannot help but wonder how it is that 160-odd countries manage to survive outside of it? Or why youth unemployment is so high? Or why anti-EU parties in many parts of the continent are on the rise? Or why the growth in the Eurozone is so stagnant? Or why they struggle to firm up various trade deals? Or why they are so bereft of quality leadership? Or why the complicated bureaucracy of the EU is not cloned across the world?

I proudly voted for Brexit. I proudly campaigned for many days and nights and weeks and months for it. That will never change.  thumbsup

And yes, life will certainly be better outside the EU.

Spot on Duty, the EU doesn't have trade agreements with anyone and the ECJ is abhorrent to me, blocking the extradition of known terrorists on torture grounds. The EU would work if it were a select group of the strongest economies in Europe, there is something to gain from being in cahoots with Germany and France but the former eastern block are simply parasites on our economy, we gain nothing from them.

I feel the same way about the North.

Speak for yourself, northerners make excellent insulation if you can find some way of elIminating the horrific smell.
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Re: Brexit

Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 12:42 pm

160 odd countries have their own trade agreements they don't sell access to other countries markets like we do. That's why Japanese, US and countless other countries operate from the UK. One is English and two is easy access. You don't realise how much we've developed around eu rules. It's one thing like Canada coming from nothing to quite a lot of access. Going from having access to everything to practically nothing overnight means serious pain. ASEAN and BRICS are two other such blocs who wish to have the seamless trade we have in the EU.

Youth unemployment is so high because they count employment differently and they haven't had the education system as good as ours, slowly they're improving but with such vast numbers it takes time. Remember these are individual countries not as a whole. Where education is brilliant youth unemployment is lower. Then you have to account for the slow recovery worldwide from the recession. The numbers are gradually reducing but it's going to take a while until education in some countries has improved enough to get the majority employed.

Economies generally improve slowly and after such a long depression were seeing signs of growth but they won't filter into the pockets of the general public for a couple of years. In times of recession extreme wing parties thrive. And most of the anti eu parties are anti muslim parties also hence their success after all these terror attacks. Look up the parties who lost trying to tone down their anti eu rhetoric so they could succeed next time.

As for eurozone growth, I think you should check the latest figures, they're growing but these are relatively developed economies which only ever have a few percent growth. Undeveloped economies always grow faster because they're coming from nothing so an economy that is 50 quid gbp and now is 5000 quid gbp has had 10000 percent growth whereas a trillion euro economy will grow in small percentages.

The reason they fail to firm up various deals is because status quo is the power factor in giant blocs of multiple countries so they make sure each deal won't be disadvantageous in future as they'd struggle to get unanimity for countermeasures. That why the deals are done carefully and thoroughly making sure they won't impact on us. If you want an example look at bombardier, the US went to protect them despite Boeing being the biggest recipient of state aid there has ever been. The eu gives access sparingly. But even despite that have a look at the treaty database and find how many agreements the EU has, including bilateral treaties and mutual recognition all of which will be no longer available to us once we leave.

This doesn't end there, this will also mean recognition of our previous existing regulations will also fall away including but not limited to any medicine made since 2010, when the last list was updated at the WTO. Flights between us and Europe and US and any other signatory to eu skies. Food standards, nuclear standards and veterinary standards for meat. All of which requires agreements with other nations to recognise our new bodies. I assure you, we aren't getting this for free.

You don't seem to have realised how desperate the situation is. The government wants a transition of two years where we have no representation in the EU Council or EU parliament. So we have no say and we have to adhere to the rules and to FOM and yo the ecj. They are so desperate to keep the status quo that they are willing to be a vassal state. This isnt taking back control, this is complete abject surrender.

The reason it isn't cloned across the world is because either their economies aren't yet developed enough or they are so big like US, China or India that they can do it on their own without giving away too much to others hence the US always bitching about access to China's markets.

Why are they bereft of quality leadership? Why are we?




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Re: Brexit

Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 12:50 pm

LionsV2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:You think you've cracked it but there's a reason why Britain begged to join the EEC and you'll spend the rest of your life disavowing responsibility or convincing yourself how life is better now we're out of the EU.



If the EU is so wonderful I cannot help but wonder how it is that 160-odd countries manage to survive outside of it? Or why youth unemployment is so high? Or why anti-EU parties in many parts of the continent are on the rise? Or why the growth in the Eurozone is so stagnant? Or why they struggle to firm up various trade deals? Or why they are so bereft of quality leadership? Or why the complicated bureaucracy of the EU is not cloned across the world?

I proudly voted for Brexit. I proudly campaigned for many days and nights and weeks and months for it. That will never change.  thumbsup

And yes, life will certainly be better outside the EU.

Spot on Duty, the EU doesn't have trade agreements with anyone and the ECJ is abhorrent to me, blocking the extradition of known terrorists on torture grounds. The EU would work if it were a select group of the strongest economies in Europe, there is something to gain from being in cahoots with Germany and France but the former eastern block are simply parasites on our economy, we gain nothing from them.

This is so ignorant as to be unbelievable.

http://ec.europa.eu/world/agreements/AdvancedSearch.do?freshSearch=true&currentUser=null

Search for the country you want and find how many deals we have worldwide through the EU.

You've mistaken the ECHR for ECJ. The European Court of human rights we won't be leaving that. Ever.

We sell market access of the eastern European countries to companies who come to the EU major economies and open up businesses to access excellent finance in our nations. Then they sell their products and serivices to the mainland. Once we've developed their economies we will have more customers due to the ease of trade between us.

Just in time supply chains of Europe are the envy of the entire world.

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Re: Brexit

Post by LionsV2 on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 12:54 pm

If you're going to try and act all high and mighty then get your facts right, it was the ECJ who blocked the extradition of Abu Hamza..

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Re: Brexit

Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 19 Oct 2017, 1:07 pm

Check it again. The ECJ blocked the extradition of his daughter in law for smuggling a mobile phone into him or trying to. Her extradition was blocked because her child was an EU citizen. His case was with the ECHR

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Re: Brexit

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