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Brexit

Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 8:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

Galted wrote:It will stop foreigners praying in our mosques.
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Re: Brexit

Post by lostinwales on Tue 21 Aug 2018, 12:09 pm

I suspect the 'what happens in the event of a no deal' leaflets the gov are going to send out may help to focus minds somewhat, unless they are just full of pictures of unicorns and rainbows.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Tue 21 Aug 2018, 12:45 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You will see a trend when Prices....Unemployment...Homelessness go up and Companies start leaving.

Brexit is....was..and always will be a bad idea..

Still waiting for unemployment to go up. What was it Osborne said: 500,000 jobs would be lost after a *vote* to Leave the EU.

Unemployment currently at its lowest since 1975.

Homelessness will go *down* after Brexit. A carefully planned migration system will ensure the government can plan ahead for housing and infrastructure, plus the UK Shared Prosperity Fund can be better targeted at the causes of homelessness than the current EU funding.

Brexit will always be a superb idea, the European Union less so.

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Re: Brexit

Post by lostinwales on Tue 21 Aug 2018, 12:51 pm

Duty281 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You will see a trend when Prices....Unemployment...Homelessness go up and Companies start leaving.

Brexit is....was..and always will be a bad idea..

Still waiting for unemployment to go up.  What was it Osborne said: 500,000 jobs would be lost after a *vote* to Leave the EU.

Unemployment currently at its lowest since 1975.

Homelessness will go *down* after Brexit. A carefully planned migration system will ensure the government can plan ahead for housing and infrastructure, plus the UK Shared Prosperity Fund can be better targeted at the causes of homelessness than the current EU funding.

Brexit will always be a superb idea, the European Union less so.

'Government'....'Carefully planned'...

Hmm

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Re: Brexit

Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 21 Aug 2018, 2:48 pm

Homelessness three times higher than under Labour.

In work Poverty the highest it has ever been since records began..

Free School meals disappearing..

Train fares rising for the 2nd time this year.

Zero hour contracts at their highest level..

Public Sector workers using Foodbanks..

Nurse/Doctor shortage.

Operations cancelled

A/E waiting times targets worst ever..

Evictions at record levels..

I could go on but it is so depressing I will leave it here.




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Re: Brexit

Post by Luke on Tue 21 Aug 2018, 2:49 pm

I'd be careful about using unemployment figures as a barometer.
We all know that the figure quoted and the actually figure is a lie. And that if you add all the people who get benefits then the figure is a hell of a lot higher.
Plus the amount of people on 0 hour contracts (around were I live there are a he'll of a lot of jobs that only offer these), has fudged any true idea.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Tue 21 Aug 2018, 2:53 pm

Luke wrote:I'd be careful about using unemployment figures as a barometer.
We all know that the figure quoted and the actually figure is a lie. And that if you add all the people who get benefits then the figure is a hell of a lot higher.
Plus the amount of people on 0 hour contracts (around were I live there are a he'll of a lot of jobs that only offer these), has fudged any true idea.

Perhaps, but we can certainly agree that 500,000 jobs have not been lost.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Tue 21 Aug 2018, 2:53 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Homelessness three times higher than under Labour.

In work Poverty the highest it has ever been since records began..

Free School meals disappearing..

Train fares rising for the 2nd time this year.

Zero hour contracts at their highest level..

Public Sector workers using Foodbanks..

Nurse/Doctor shortage.

Operations cancelled

A/E waiting times targets worst ever..

Evictions at record levels..

I could go on but it is so depressing I will leave it here.




Absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Luke on Tue 21 Aug 2018, 3:12 pm

Duty281 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Homelessness three times higher than under Labour.

In work Poverty the highest it has ever been since records began..

Free School meals disappearing..

Train fares rising for the 2nd time this year.

Zero hour contracts at their highest level..

Public Sector workers using Foodbanks..

Nurse/Doctor shortage.

Operations cancelled

A/E waiting times targets worst ever..

Evictions at record levels..

I could go on but it is so depressing I will leave it here.




Absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.

Agree with Duty here. A lot of this is more down to austerity and the Tories handling of it then Brexit. That's why Corbyn nearly won the last ge, because he offered a hope and away out of it. Whether it will get worse after Brexit, only time will tell.
And yes she I'm not sure 500,000 jobs have been lost. But you would agree the amount companies that are shutting down has gone past worrying.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Samo on Tue 21 Aug 2018, 3:16 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Luke wrote:I'd be careful about using unemployment figures as a barometer.
We all know that the figure quoted and the actually figure is a lie. And that if you add all the people who get benefits then the figure is a hell of a lot higher.
Plus the amount of people on 0 hour contracts (around were I live there are a he'll of a lot of jobs that only offer these), has fudged any true idea.

Perhaps, but we can certainly agree that 500,000 jobs have not been lost.

Probably because brexit hasnt happened yet?

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Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Tue 21 Aug 2018, 3:27 pm

Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Luke wrote:I'd be careful about using unemployment figures as a barometer.
We all know that the figure quoted and the actually figure is a lie. And that if you add all the people who get benefits then the figure is a hell of a lot higher.
Plus the amount of people on 0 hour contracts (around were I live there are a he'll of a lot of jobs that only offer these), has fudged any true idea.

Perhaps, but we can certainly agree that 500,000 jobs have not been lost.

Probably because brexit hasnt happened yet?

As I referenced and emphasised, the claim from Osborne was specifically referring to the *vote* to Leave and how it would result in 500,000 lost jobs. Full quote:

"a vote to leave would represent an immediate and profound shock to our economy. That shock would push our economy into a recession and lead to an increase in unemployment of around 500,000..."

We've voted to Leave over two years ago. Both of those things have not happened.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Samo on Tue 21 Aug 2018, 3:36 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Luke wrote:I'd be careful about using unemployment figures as a barometer.
We all know that the figure quoted and the actually figure is a lie. And that if you add all the people who get benefits then the figure is a hell of a lot higher.
Plus the amount of people on 0 hour contracts (around were I live there are a he'll of a lot of jobs that only offer these), has fudged any true idea.

Perhaps, but we can certainly agree that 500,000 jobs have not been lost.

Probably because brexit hasnt happened yet?

As I referenced and emphasised, the claim from Osborne was specifically referring to the *vote* to Leave and how it would result in 500,000 lost jobs. Full quote:

"a vote to leave would represent an immediate and profound shock to our economy. That shock would push our economy into a recession and lead to an increase in unemployment of around 500,000..."

We've voted to Leave over two years ago. Both of those things have not happened.

Well, the pound has fallen in value, by 12% vs the Euro and 5% vs the US dollar. Thats undeniable. Its not armageddon (yet) like Osbourne predicted but theres definitely been a negative impact already.

Oh, and while we're here...

Duty281 wrote:

Homelessness will go *down* after Brexit. A carefully planned migration system will ensure the government can plan ahead for housing and infrastructure, plus the UK Shared Prosperity Fund can be better targeted at the causes of homelessness than the current EU funding.


You are aware we can implement this already? While still a member of the EU, right? Even Farage has been forced to admit that leaving the EU wont affect our ability to control migration.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Tue 21 Aug 2018, 3:48 pm

Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Luke wrote:I'd be careful about using unemployment figures as a barometer.
We all know that the figure quoted and the actually figure is a lie. And that if you add all the people who get benefits then the figure is a hell of a lot higher.
Plus the amount of people on 0 hour contracts (around were I live there are a he'll of a lot of jobs that only offer these), has fudged any true idea.

Perhaps, but we can certainly agree that 500,000 jobs have not been lost.

Probably because brexit hasnt happened yet?

As I referenced and emphasised, the claim from Osborne was specifically referring to the *vote* to Leave and how it would result in 500,000 lost jobs. Full quote:

"a vote to leave would represent an immediate and profound shock to our economy. That shock would push our economy into a recession and lead to an increase in unemployment of around 500,000..."

We've voted to Leave over two years ago. Both of those things have not happened.

Well, the pound has fallen in value, by 12% vs the Euro and 5% vs the US dollar.  Thats undeniable.  Its not armageddon (yet) like Osbourne predicted but theres definitely been a negative impact already.

Oh, and while we're here...

Duty281 wrote:

Homelessness will go *down* after Brexit. A carefully planned migration system will ensure the government can plan ahead for housing and infrastructure, plus the UK Shared Prosperity Fund can be better targeted at the causes of homelessness than the current EU funding.


You are aware we can implement this already?  While still a member of the EU, right?  Even Farage has been forced to admit that leaving the EU wont affect our ability to control migration.  

1) Irrelevant to what the original point is.

2) We already control immigration outside the EU, but not inside the EU. Farage has admitted no such thing.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Samo on Tue 21 Aug 2018, 4:09 pm



1:35 when the penny drops. "In theory you're right. In theory there are - under European treaties - there are restrictions that can be put in place"

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Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Tue 21 Aug 2018, 4:41 pm

Ah, yes I thought it'd be that which you were referring to. The misleading video from Femi who badly misquotes and totally mangles article 7 of the citizens rights directive!*

0:49 - "In order to come here" - wrong. What Femi is quoting from is in reference to EU migrants who *stay* for longer than three months.

1:00 - If you do not fulfil those criteria (not becoming a burden and having medical insurance), you can still stay under numerous other conditions listed (link below), which Femi (cleverly enough) doesn't expand upon in order to dupe his audience (the picture is also cropped).

http://www.eearegulations.co.uk/CitizensRightsDirective/ByPage/Article_07

Farage may have made a concession there (an incorrect one if he did so), he may not have done (I would need to see the full, unedited video).

Either way, you cannot control migration from within the EU whilst being a member of the EU.

*Not that he's ignorant about this, just clever.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Samo on Tue 21 Aug 2018, 5:15 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Either way, you cannot control migration from within the EU whilst being a member of the EU.

Did you even read Article 7 which describes all the ways that someone can lose right of residence and the massive list of things they need to fulfil in order to be allowed to stay? In what way is that not controlling migration?

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Re: Brexit

Post by lostinwales on Wed 22 Aug 2018, 11:15 am

I know people who have lost their jobs because of Brexit - as in Brexit was explicitly mentioned in the statement from the company who closed down the division that employed them.

It is a common fallacy to assume because something hasn't happened instantly that it can be ignored. We haven't left yet but investment into the UK has flatlined. We won't lose those jobs overnight but we will over the months and years that follow.

There are a lot of major employers who are catching a cold over Brexit, like car manufacturers (particularly the Japanese owned ones) Airbus, the city moving jobs abroad etc. I don't see a list of companies ready to leap in to provide alternatives (and it won't affect arch brexiteer Dyson because he has already shifted his manufacturing to Malaysia).

Now you may choose to discount the opinions of people who run these businesses, but looking after them is actually their job.


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Re: Brexit

Post by superflyweight on Wed 22 Aug 2018, 11:58 am

Duty281 wrote:
Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Luke wrote:I'd be careful about using unemployment figures as a barometer.
We all know that the figure quoted and the actually figure is a lie. And that if you add all the people who get benefits then the figure is a hell of a lot higher.
Plus the amount of people on 0 hour contracts (around were I live there are a he'll of a lot of jobs that only offer these), has fudged any true idea.

Perhaps, but we can certainly agree that 500,000 jobs have not been lost.

Probably because brexit hasnt happened yet?

As I referenced and emphasised, the claim from Osborne was specifically referring to the *vote* to Leave and how it would result in 500,000 lost jobs. Full quote:

"a vote to leave would represent an immediate and profound shock to our economy. That shock would push our economy into a recession and lead to an increase in unemployment of around 500,000..."

We've voted to Leave over two years ago. Both of those things have not happened.

It's bloody lucky for him that he didn't do something really daft and stick his claims on the side of a bus. That would have been really embarrassing.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Samo on Sun 26 Aug 2018, 11:35 am

JRM’s latest solution to the Irish border: people who cross will be subject to ‘inspections, just like during the Troubles’. He also claimed its a border that doesnt have to be crossed everyday.

The guy is so far out of touch with reality its incredible. But the plebs keep doffing their caps and tugging their furlocks. This man is poison incarnate and it scares me that people sincerely believe he should be PM.

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Re: Brexit

Post by JuliusHMarx on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 12:10 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45351288

Obviously Panasonic aren't really moving their HQ - it's all just scare-mongering as part of Project Fear.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Samo on Thu 30 Aug 2018, 2:17 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45351288

Obviously Panasonic aren't really moving their HQ - it's all just scare-mongering as part of Project Fear.

Massive mistake from Panasonic here. Dont they realise they're going to miss out on selling their 55" OLED curved TV's to lucrative markets in Africa such as Burundi, Somalia and the Central African Republic?

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Re: Brexit

Post by SecretFly on Fri 31 Aug 2018, 10:40 am

Samo wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45351288

Obviously Panasonic aren't really moving their HQ - it's all just scare-mongering as part of Project Fear.

Massive mistake from Panasonic here.  Dont they realise they're going to miss out on selling their 55" OLED curved TV's to lucrative markets in Africa such as Burundi, Somalia and the Central African Republic?

A lot of Chinese in Africa these days with loadsa money.. they like their luxuries, don't they? Developing markets is always the best markets.... rather than the saturated markets. The EU is a saturated market... hell even the 'NEWS' is over-supplied to a news-fatigued populace. "That was the 9o'clock news and now the 9.30 News"

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Re: Brexit

Post by Hero on Fri 31 Aug 2018, 11:10 am

China are pumping huge amounts of cash into Africa at the moment especially in regards to the building of dams in Ethiopia & Sudan much to the annoyance of Egypt.

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Re: Brexit

Post by SecretFly on Fri 31 Aug 2018, 11:41 am

The NEW Territory Amassing Imperialistic Age, Hero. That's why the world seems in flux.... let's not talk about it openly but everyone knows the codes - lots of nice 'let's work together' lingo covering up the naked truth - greedy resource grabbing by competing empires (China/USA/Europe/Russia).

We always ask ourselves in the history books: "The lessons to be learned from the past?" Well, we know the lessons but nobody cares about truly learning from them because to do so would be to deny our very impulse as humans - evolutionary greed.

The EU and America watches China and Russia like a hawks and vice versa. All nice 'lets trade together' but all the while the tension growing and growing - just as it did in the years before virtually all major wars through history. 'Alliances', 'common goals', 'Pacts', 'let's make the world a better place by cooperating', colonisation under the guise of migration....and then All Out War.

Is that what's in store for our 'developed' world? Well if people don't think it is then I'd like to know why they feel this century is so special that it will so naturally avoid the inevitable results of 'colonising' tension.


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Re: Brexit

Post by lostinwales on Fri 31 Aug 2018, 12:29 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Samo wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45351288

Obviously Panasonic aren't really moving their HQ - it's all just scare-mongering as part of Project Fear.

Massive mistake from Panasonic here.  Dont they realise they're going to miss out on selling their 55" OLED curved TV's to lucrative markets in Africa such as Burundi, Somalia and the Central African Republic?

A lot of Chinese in Africa these days with loadsa money..  they like their luxuries, don't they?  Developing markets is always the best markets.... rather than the saturated markets.  The EU is a saturated market... hell even the 'NEWS' is over-supplied to a news-fatigued populace.  "That was the 9o'clock news and now the 9.30 News"

Well yes the EU is a saturated market, and those lovely Brexit guys used to push the line about growth in new markets, but quite frankly selling 2 carrots instead of one represents a growth of 100%, but it is still only 2 carrots.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Fri 14 Sep 2018, 11:39 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/electoral-commission-misinterpreted-law-vote-leave-high-court

The High Court finds what most people involved in politics already know: that the Electoral Commission is a total mess and unfit for purpose.

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Re: Brexit

Post by lostinwales on Fri 14 Sep 2018, 1:06 pm

Duty281 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/electoral-commission-misinterpreted-law-vote-leave-high-court

The High Court finds what most people involved in politics already know: that the Electoral Commission is a total mess and unfit for purpose.

Yep. Still pretty clear that Vote Leave misbehaved though

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Re: Brexit

Post by SecretFly on Fri 14 Sep 2018, 1:38 pm

Oh Dear.... in a bit of a convoluted incident an advisory body sanctioned by Parliament gives a Pro-Brexit group bad advice on financing a campaign.

Was there more to it than a mistake and a misunderstanding of law?  Was there a set up planned to discredit the Pro-Brexit movement at the time?

Hmmmm.... still more investigations needed into Brexit skulduggery?

Funny though..in a real funny way not a metaphorical funny way... that all participants say that right is on their side.

Court - "Electoral Commission got it wrong"
Electoral Commission - "You see?  The courts agree with us.  We got it wrong and sorted it out by fining Vote Leave."
Vote Leave - "You see?  They're all potentially corrupt - either the courts or the Electoral Commission.  We've been vindicated and want our money back."

Laugh The Law...you can always be right if you interpret the legal claptrap language to suit the philosophy of your followers.

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Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Fri 14 Sep 2018, 4:27 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Duty281 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/electoral-commission-misinterpreted-law-vote-leave-high-court

The High Court finds what most people involved in politics already know: that the Electoral Commission is a total mess and unfit for purpose.

Yep. Still pretty clear that Vote Leave misbehaved though

Both official campaigns 'misbehaved'.

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Re: Brexit

Post by lostinwales on Sat 15 Sep 2018, 6:12 pm

Duty281 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Duty281 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/electoral-commission-misinterpreted-law-vote-leave-high-court

The High Court finds what most people involved in politics already know: that the Electoral Commission is a total mess and unfit for purpose.

Yep. Still pretty clear that Vote Leave misbehaved though

Both official campaigns 'misbehaved'.
In different ways and one significantly more than the other. The issue which lead  the current ruling is that the advice apparently given to Vote Leave was different than to the remain groups, which meant that Vote Leave were happy to spend more through what they thought was a loophole.

Anyway, two wrongs don't make a right. I can't deny there is a significant eurosceptic part of this country but the vote itself was a farce

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Re: Brexit

Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 3:34 pm

May is losing this game of Chess.

Hard to see how she can avoid a "leaving the EU in name only Brexit" and not stay in CU/SM..

She can't afford no deal.....The EU aren't bending.

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Re: Brexit

Post by lostinwales on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 4:42 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:May is losing this game of Chess.

Hard to see how she can avoid a "leaving the EU in name only Brexit" and not stay in CU/SM..

She can't afford no deal.....The EU aren't bending.

They never would, not much, and not for such an unreliable protagonist. Brexit will be hard on the EU, but much harder on us. If they had more faith in us they might bend a little but they have never had much room for movement.

There is one theory that she will call a GE when the Chequers deal falls through. It would be very interesting to see what happens, particularly if she switches to a remain based agenda, or even a 'people's vote'

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Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 5:01 pm

If she openly switched to a remain agenda/another referendum, rather than just pretending she supports Brexit, she would get annihilated at the ballot box.

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Re: Brexit

Post by MrInvisible on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 5:35 pm

Brexit is clearly going to dominate proceedings at the party conferences. Pressure for a 2nd referendum is coming from all wings of the party in Labour at the moment, with trade unions also now pushing for it. Corbyn/McDonnell will look a bit isolated and longer term will lose lots of support from younger urban voters if they resist this.

Meanwhile, Donald Tusk says the Chequers plan is dead and Macron is calling Brexiteers liars. Theresa May is in for a tough old time at the Tory party conference, and I sense there may be a Tory leadership battle brewing. Self-preservation always comes naturally to the Tories though so despite their Brexit in-fighting I can see them doing whatever they can to avoid a general election. I wonder whether they will feel backed into a corner and reluctantly agree 2nd referendum to head off the threat of no-confidence vote and general election.

I've no idea to be honest but I get the sense we will be in for some turbulent times politically in these next few weeks and months.

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Re: Brexit

Post by lostinwales on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 5:41 pm

Duty281 wrote:If she openly switched to a remain agenda/another referendum, rather than just pretending she supports Brexit, she would get annihilated at the ballot box.

Leaving Labour owning the toxic Brexit baby isn't the dumbest long term strategy

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Re: Brexit

Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 20 Sep 2018, 8:14 pm

MrInvisible wrote:Brexit is clearly going to dominate proceedings at the party conferences.  Pressure for a 2nd referendum is coming from all wings of the party in Labour at the moment, with trade unions also now pushing for it.  Corbyn/McDonnell will look a bit isolated and longer term will lose lots of support from younger urban voters if they resist this.

Meanwhile, Donald Tusk says the Chequers plan is dead and Macron is calling Brexiteers liars.  Theresa May is in for a tough old time at the Tory party conference, and I sense there may be a Tory leadership battle brewing.  Self-preservation always comes naturally to the Tories though so despite their Brexit in-fighting I can see them doing whatever they can to avoid a general election.  I wonder whether they will feel backed into a corner and reluctantly agree 2nd referendum to head off the threat of no-confidence vote and general election.

I've no idea to be honest but I get the sense we will be in for some turbulent times politically in these next few weeks and months.

No way that she can agree the CU and get away with the back me or GE threat...These Brexiteers have been rabid in their hate against the EU for twenty plus years..

They Won't accept it.. The Tories are more obsessed with Brexit than Labour...


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Re: Brexit

Post by Duty281 on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 9:35 am

MrInvisible wrote:I wonder whether they will feel backed into a corner and reluctantly agree 2nd referendum to head off the threat of no-confidence vote and general election.

There's no time for a second referendum, anyway, unless the EU and the UK agree to an extension on Article 50 (can't see the EU agreeing to that).

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Re: Brexit

Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 11:00 am

Duty281 wrote:
MrInvisible wrote:I wonder whether they will feel backed into a corner and reluctantly agree 2nd referendum to head off the threat of no-confidence vote and general election.

There's no time for a second referendum, anyway, unless the EU and the UK agree to an extension on Article 50 (can't see the EU agreeing to that).

I am pretty sure I have heard the EU have said there can't be a second referendum in any case. Wheels already in motion and too much spent on talks etc, provisional changes etc to go back at such a late stage plus it equally messes about the existing EU states.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Samo on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 11:51 am

The Independent were reporting a few months ago that the EU were pushing for a 6 month extension to give them more flexibility and protect their own interests.  An extra six months would be more than enough for a new referendum.

Given the fact that Leave voters still cant agree on what leaving means (Norway deal, Canada ++, no deal, stay in the SM/CU) and there still isnt a solution to the Irish border problem (that maintains the integrity of the GFA) shows that you really cant argue that leaving is the 'will of the people' anymore.  The fact that we now know what deal we're likely to get and what the effects will look like, the only democratically sound thing to do is have a new referendum between dumping Brexit, accepting whatever deal the government can pull out of its arse, or leave with no deal.

The people deserve a say on the final terms. Thats the definition of democracy.

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Re: Brexit

Post by lostinwales on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 11:52 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
MrInvisible wrote:I wonder whether they will feel backed into a corner and reluctantly agree 2nd referendum to head off the threat of no-confidence vote and general election.

There's no time for a second referendum, anyway, unless the EU and the UK agree to an extension on Article 50 (can't see the EU agreeing to that).

I am pretty sure I have heard the EU have said there can't be a second referendum in any case. Wheels already in motion and too much spent on talks etc, provisional changes etc to go back at such a late stage plus it equally messes about the existing EU states.

I understood what the EU said is that they can't agree to an extension of article 50 unless there is an obvious reason to do so, which means a GE or another referendum. They won't just extend for the hell of it, only if they think there is a benefit for doing so.

They are balancing up currently getting nowhere with the current bunch of clowns and not wanting the UK to leave.

If the situation was not so predictable it would be gobsmacking. Chequers would have been OK as a starting point 2 years ago but was never going to be acceptable to the EU and now they have told May that in no uncertain tones. And yet the shower of Poopie are still claiming it is a live document.

I have no idea where May has left to go. Even if the ERG actually try to boot her out and take over you would have thought that the government majority in parliament is so slight that the smallest push would lead to the government collapsing, unless Corbyn supports the Tory nutters (which I can't discount, sadly)

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Re: Brexit

Post by lostinwales on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 11:54 am

Samo wrote:The Independent were reporting a few months ago that the EU were pushing for a 6 month extension to give them more flexibility and protect their own interests.  An extra six months would be more than enough for a new referendum.

Given the fact that Leave voters still cant agree on what leaving means (Norway deal, Canada ++, no deal, stay in the SM/CU) and there still isnt a solution to the Irish border problem (that maintains the integrity of the GFA) shows that you really cant argue that leaving is the 'will of the people' anymore.  The fact that we now know what deal we're likely to get and what the effects will look like, the only democratically sound thing to do is have a new referendum between dumping Brexit, accepting whatever deal the government can pull out of its arse, or leave with no deal.

The people deserve a say on the final terms.  Thats the definition of democracy.

Yep. Another referendum won't be easy, but it must be the best route to get out of the current impasse and to help the f-wits to save both of their two faces - which apparently has always been more important than the interests of the country as a whole

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Re: Brexit

Post by SecretFly on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 2:25 pm

Christ.... let's not try to pretend we're all fools just to advance these arguments.

Let's at least give everyone the nod that most of us know how the stuff works.  

The delays and the frustrations, and the seeming confusion, and the never-ending growls and frowns, and never-ending BBC panels of anti-Brexiteer commentators - it's all designed to be exactly what it was designed to be - an attempt to linger, linger, linger on the decision of the People of the UK to leave so that the delaying, and Shakespearean procrastination, and constant bad-blood snarls from Brussels would bring about this very mood: "Let's try asking the British people to vote again"

It's of course also designed to be an ultra difficult extraction process as an attempt to scare other Nations out of wanting to go down the same exit route in the future. It's a warning for the sceptics.
So Europe doesn't like the scent or taste of Brexit?  Big surprise that they show the rabies teeth all the way to the end.

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Re: Brexit

Post by lostinwales on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 2:40 pm

SecretFly wrote:Christ.... let's not try to pretend we're all fools just to advance these arguments.

Let's at least give everyone the nod that most of us know how the stuff works.  

The delays and the frustrations, and the seeming confusion, and the never-ending growls and frowns, and never-ending BBC panels of anti-Brexiteer commentators - it's all designed to be exactly what it was designed to be - an attempt to linger, linger, linger on the decision of the People of the UK to leave so that the delaying, and Shakespearean procrastination, and constant bad-blood snarls from Brussels would bring about this very mood: "Let's try asking the British people to vote again"

It's of course also designed to be an ultra difficult extraction process as an attempt to scare other Nations out of wanting to go down the same exit route in the future.  It's a warning for the sceptics.
So Europe doesn't like the scent or taste of Brexit?  Big surprise that they show the rabies teeth all the way to the end.

The main complaint I have heard about the BBC (and it is one that I buy into) is that there has been too much unchallenged exposure of the rabid brexiteers, and not enough education as to what all this Poopie means. Nowhere near enough exposure of the dreaded 'experts' and far too much shouted opinion.

For instance virtually no UK MEP is ever seen on TV or radio save those from Ukip. There are some interesting theories as to why

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Re: Brexit

Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 2:48 pm

Another speech where May tries to counter terrible press with 'Posturing'...

All this Woman ever does is kick things into the long grass and posture....

Surely the Tory Party can put her and the Country out of its misery soon...Just looking at her makes the suicide rate rocket...

Corbyn isn't any better but at least he has shown that the left has a place in politics even if it is better being chaperoned by moderation....I never thought the guy could be so succesful...Like Bernie..

Time for both Leaders to go.....for different reasons..

One has proved left wing politics is alive and kicking......The other is just crap !!

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Re: Brexit

Post by SecretFly on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 3:05 pm

lostinwales wrote:

The main complaint I have heard about the BBC (and it is one that I buy into) is that there has been too much unchallenged exposure of the rabid brexiteers, and not enough education as to what all this Poopie means. Nowhere near enough exposure of the dreaded 'experts' and far too much shouted opinion.

For instance virtually no UK MEP is ever seen on TV or radio save those from Ukip. There are some interesting theories as to why

Well I haven't heard, lost.  I've been doing the seeing for myself.  

And yep, there is plenty of 'expertise' on the BBC News Channel these last few years, especially on that special round table chat at the weekend (can't remember the exact name of the segment) where the news anchor of the day shares his/her/its studio with about five 'commentators' - writers, political journalists etc...from all over Europe and then UK itself.  

I've watched that a lot and really, in all honesty, I don't know how they get away with it because there is absolutely no attempt at balancing out the panel.  All rabid remainers (some of the 'mainland' contributers often acting like they truly have rabies too - wild with fury).  No alternative voice of protest on the panel and only luke-warm.... very luke-warm... attempts at devil's advocate brexiteer questions being put by quite distinctly Remainer news anchors.

I'm not in the realm of the BBC but if I were I'd be complaining mucho about the lack of balance from a supposed National Broadcaster.  But even the Brexiteers don't seem to care anymore.  They obvioulsly don't watch it.  So the panellists - poor eejits - they should be told they're only preaching to their own flock; never the most productive of exercises.

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Re: Brexit

Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 3:17 pm

SecretFly wrote:
lostinwales wrote:

The main complaint I have heard about the BBC (and it is one that I buy into) is that there has been too much unchallenged exposure of the rabid brexiteers, and not enough education as to what all this Poopie means. Nowhere near enough exposure of the dreaded 'experts' and far too much shouted opinion.

For instance virtually no UK MEP is ever seen on TV or radio save those from Ukip. There are some interesting theories as to why

Well I haven't heard, lost.  I've been doing the seeing for myself.  

And yep, there is plenty of 'expertise' on the BBC News Channel these last few years, especially on that special round table chat at the weekend (can't remember the exact name of the segment) where the news anchor of the day shares his/her/its studio with about five 'commentators' - writers, political journalists etc...from all over Europe and then UK itself.  

I've watched that a lot and really, in all honesty, I don't know how they get away with it because there is absolutely no attempt at balancing out the panel.  All rabid remainers (some of the 'mainland' contributers often acting like they truly have rabies too - wild with fury).  No alternative voice of protest on the panel and only luke-warm.... very luke-warm... attempts at devil's advocate brexiteer questions being put by quite distinctly Remainer news anchors.

I'm not in the realm of the BBC but if I were I'd be complaining mucho about the lack of balance from a supposed National Broadcaster.  But even the Brexiteers don't seem to care anymore.  They obvioulsly don't watch it.  So the panellists - poor eejits - they should be told they're only preaching to their own flock; never the most productive of exercises.

Did you expect any differently? You should see the bias on any Scottish matters of independence on the BBC or on shows like Newsnight. It is the norm for the BBC.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Samo on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 3:25 pm

The BBC is hardly a place for journalism. They have two sides allowed to spout whatever pish they want - unchallenged - for the sake of 'balance'. I've seen massive complaints from both sides that BBC is both anti and pro brexit, which tells me people will see whatever bias they want when 'balance' is key. The BBC is the last place I would look for credible journalism.

I love the hyperbole of comparing Brussels to rabid dogs, and how the EU are making it as difficult as possible to turn off other nations from trying to leave. The EU have said from the very start what leaving would entail and it has been very clear from Day one, and yet at every step the government and the ERG and the Vote Leave campaign and the likes of Farage have went 'Nope, it'll be like this'. And as soon as the EU says 'actually no, it wont be, we've already told you why' they're the bad guys.

Its like trying to remove the eggs from a baked cake, and then blaming the baker when you cant do it.

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Re: Brexit

Post by SecretFly on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 3:26 pm

I don't expect any differently. I merely wonder why it's not a topic brought up for real debate in the chambers of Brexit Parliament at Westminster. It'd be a change from the usual stuff, wouldn't it.

But again, nobody genuinely seems to care that there is no 'neutral' news broadcasters anymore, anywhere in the world (even State run, tax funded operations in supposed democratic states). They all have a defined political agenda and none even mind the slur that they might have some kind of role in society but purveyors of genuine 'journalism' isn't it.


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Re: Brexit

Post by SecretFly on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 3:31 pm

Samo wrote:

I love the hyperbole of comparing Brussels to rabid dogs, and how the EU are making it as difficult as possible to turn off other nations from trying to leave.  The EU have said from the very start what leaving would entail and it has been very clear from Day one, and yet at every step the government and the ERG and the Vote Leave campaign and the likes of Farage have went 'Nope, it'll be like this'. And as soon as the EU says 'actually no, it wont be, we've already told you why' they're the bad guys.

Its like trying to remove the eggs from a baked cake, and then blaming the baker when you cant do it.

Nice rabies analogy! I won't look for copyright Wink

On the other analogy about the egg in the cake. I have an easier one. It's like trying to cross the wall from east Berlin to the western side. You blame the prisoner for wanting to escape jail and being annoyed that the jailer keeps interrupting the attempts? It's natural that a jailer wants to hold on to prisoner. It's natural that a prisoner always has dreams of being free...


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Re: Brexit

Post by CaledonianCraig on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 3:32 pm

SecretFly wrote:I don't expect any differently.  I merely wonder why it's not a topic brought up for real debate in the chambers of Brexit Parliament at Westminster.  It'd be a change from the usual stuff, wouldn't it.  

But again, nobody genuinely seems to care that there is no 'neutral' news broadcasters anymore, anywhere in the world (even State run, tax funded operations in supposed democratic states).  They all have a defined political agenda and none even mind the slur that they might have some kind of role in society but purveyors of genuine 'journalism' isn't it.


To expect neutrality though is probably expecting too much. Remember that this is the BRITISH Broadcasting Corporation so sees everything through British eyes. That is why there is the bias towards the union and all things British and its stance in politics. Westminster (well the ruling party) and the PM back Brexit so they tow the line. And it is not rocket science to work out why they are biased against independence for Scotland as it is affront to Britain.
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Re: Brexit

Post by Samo on Fri 21 Sep 2018, 3:36 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Samo wrote:

I love the hyperbole of comparing Brussels to rabid dogs, and how the EU are making it as difficult as possible to turn off other nations from trying to leave.  The EU have said from the very start what leaving would entail and it has been very clear from Day one, and yet at every step the government and the ERG and the Vote Leave campaign and the likes of Farage have went 'Nope, it'll be like this'. And as soon as the EU says 'actually no, it wont be, we've already told you why' they're the bad guys.

Its like trying to remove the eggs from a baked cake, and then blaming the baker when you cant do it.

Nice rabies analogy!  I won't look for copyright Wink

On the other analogy about the egg in the cake.  I have an easier one.  It's like trying to cross the wall from east Berlin to the western side.  You blame the prisoner for wanting to escape jail and being annoyed that the jailer keeps interrupting the attempts?  It's natural that a jailer wants to hold on to prisoner.  It's natural that a prisoner always has dreams of being free...


Not even close. The prisoner has the option of walking away from the jail completely (no deal) and the jailer isnt going to stop them if they want to do that, but they would recommend against it.

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Re: Brexit

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