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Brexit - Page 17 Empty Brexit

Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 8:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

Galted wrote:It will stop foreigners praying in our mosques.
Laugh
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Post by Pr4wn on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 9:07 am

Duty281 wrote:I hope the marching of the bad losers is better than their tenuous grip on reality - they say more than 100,000 turned up in June for the first march. laughing

This wholly sums up how puerile this who "you lost, get over it" argument really is. Pathetic.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 9:13 am

Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I hope the marching of the bad losers is better than their tenuous grip on reality - they say more than 100,000 turned up in June for the first march. laughing

This wholly sums up how puerile this who "you lost, get over it" argument really is. Pathetic.

Can't read any of your posts without first remembering what you said to me a few weeks before the referendum - something about how my tears would be delicious after Leave lost the referendum. That was truly puerile. Laugh Laugh

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 9:14 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I hope the marching of the bad losers is better than their tenuous grip on reality - they say more than 100,000 turned up in June for the first march. laughing

Luckily the magnanimity of the winners is helping to heal the divisions raised by the vote and its outcome.

I make no apology for mocking the slender minority of Remain voters who have revealed themselves to be the most vicious and abhorrent anti-democrats.

Most Remain voters have accepted the outcome with good grace and humility. Peace and love to them.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 9:23 am

Duty281 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I hope the marching of the bad losers is better than their tenuous grip on reality - they say more than 100,000 turned up in June for the first march. laughing

Luckily the magnanimity of the winners is helping to heal the divisions raised by the vote and its outcome.

I make no apology for mocking the slender minority of Remain voters who have revealed themselves to be the most vicious and abhorrent anti-democrats.

Most Remain voters have accepted the outcome with good grace and humility. Peace and love to them.

Would you say everyone going on the march is a 'vicious and abhorrent anti-democrat'?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 10:42 am

Another Flip Flop from the Tories....

Not sure the suicide rate is going up due to Poverty or because of these negotiations.

Heaven help us..

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 10:58 am

MrInvisible wrote:https://www.peoples-vote.uk/march Anyone going to the big anti-Brexit demonstration in London this Saturday 20th October?  

Guess you won't be seen there.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 10:59 am

People are lumping money on....Britain not leaving when the deadline comes...

Have to agree with that train of thought..

Monsieur Farage will probably start a New Party..

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 11:12 am

Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I hope the marching of the bad losers is better than their tenuous grip on reality - they say more than 100,000 turned up in June for the first march. laughing

This wholly sums up how puerile this who "you lost, get over it" argument really is. Pathetic.

Can't read any of your posts without first remembering what you said to me a few weeks before the referendum - something about how my tears would be delicious after Leave lost the referendum. That was truly puerile. Laugh Laugh

Not engaging with the subject matter posted then, old chap? Thought not.

In truth, calling protesters anti-democratic is truly anti-democratic in itself. Especially when you consider the increasing number of stories to do with broken spending limits and nefarious foreign intervention.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 11:14 am

Is George Soros British?

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 12:15 pm

Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I hope the marching of the bad losers is better than their tenuous grip on reality - they say more than 100,000 turned up in June for the first march. laughing

This wholly sums up how puerile this who "you lost, get over it" argument really is. Pathetic.

Maybe worth pointing out that there have been marches supporting Brexit, and that there is one statistic for those marches which is massively higher than the pro EU events - and that is police involvement...

But you know - all those vicious nasty remainers with their kids and all...

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 12:18 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I hope the marching of the bad losers is better than their tenuous grip on reality - they say more than 100,000 turned up in June for the first march. laughing

This wholly sums up how puerile this who "you lost, get over it" argument really is. Pathetic.

Maybe worth pointing out that there have been marches supporting Brexit, and that there is one statistic for those marches which is massively higher than the pro EU events - and that is police involvement...

But you know - all those vicious nasty remainers with their kids and all...


so the Police are pro-Brexit? What's your point, lost? They got rights to march too, innit??? Wink

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 1:35 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I hope the marching of the bad losers is better than their tenuous grip on reality - they say more than 100,000 turned up in June for the first march. laughing

Luckily the magnanimity of the winners is helping to heal the divisions raised by the vote and its outcome.

I make no apology for mocking the slender minority of Remain voters who have revealed themselves to be the most vicious and abhorrent anti-democrats.

Most Remain voters have accepted the outcome with good grace and humility. Peace and love to them.

Would you say everyone going on the march is a 'vicious and abhorrent anti-democrat'?

Everyone who wants to overturn the democratic decision, without it first being implemented, are vicious and abhorrent anti-democrats.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 1:36 pm

Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I hope the marching of the bad losers is better than their tenuous grip on reality - they say more than 100,000 turned up in June for the first march. laughing

This wholly sums up how puerile this who "you lost, get over it" argument really is. Pathetic.

Can't read any of your posts without first remembering what you said to me a few weeks before the referendum - something about how my tears would be delicious after Leave lost the referendum. That was truly puerile. Laugh Laugh

Not engaging with the subject matter posted then, old chap? Thought not.

You don't post subject matter, old boy. You post drivel of the highest order, the only purpose of which gives myself a good laugh.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 1:54 pm

Duty281 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I hope the marching of the bad losers is better than their tenuous grip on reality - they say more than 100,000 turned up in June for the first march. laughing

Luckily the magnanimity of the winners is helping to heal the divisions raised by the vote and its outcome.

I make no apology for mocking the slender minority of Remain voters who have revealed themselves to be the most vicious and abhorrent anti-democrats.

Most Remain voters have accepted the outcome with good grace and humility. Peace and love to them.

Would you say everyone going on the march is a 'vicious and abhorrent anti-democrat'?

Everyone who wants to overturn the democratic decision, without it first being implemented, are vicious and abhorrent anti-democrats.

OK. So a people's vote on the actual proposed deal is neither vicious nor anti-democratic.

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Post by Samo on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 2:30 pm

Duty281 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I hope the marching of the bad losers is better than their tenuous grip on reality - they say more than 100,000 turned up in June for the first march. laughing

Luckily the magnanimity of the winners is helping to heal the divisions raised by the vote and its outcome.

I make no apology for mocking the slender minority of Remain voters who have revealed themselves to be the most vicious and abhorrent anti-democrats.

Most Remain voters have accepted the outcome with good grace and humility. Peace and love to them.

Would you say everyone going on the march is a 'vicious and abhorrent anti-democrat'?

Everyone who wants to overturn the democratic decision, without it first being implemented, are vicious and abhorrent anti-democrats.

Sorry thats just absolute nonsense. One of the tenants of democracy is being allowed to change your mind, either before a decision has been implemented or not.


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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 2:46 pm

Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I hope the marching of the bad losers is better than their tenuous grip on reality - they say more than 100,000 turned up in June for the first march. laughing

Luckily the magnanimity of the winners is helping to heal the divisions raised by the vote and its outcome.

I make no apology for mocking the slender minority of Remain voters who have revealed themselves to be the most vicious and abhorrent anti-democrats.

Most Remain voters have accepted the outcome with good grace and humility. Peace and love to them.

Would you say everyone going on the march is a 'vicious and abhorrent anti-democrat'?

Everyone who wants to overturn the democratic decision, without it first being implemented, are vicious and abhorrent anti-democrats.

Sorry thats just absolute nonsense.  One of the tenants of democracy is being allowed to change your mind, either before a decision has been implemented or not.  

Sorry. Although my language is different to Duty's, I agree. There's no real evidence of any sea change in opinion from those that voted 'out' in the Referendum. Without that, there's no way you can seriously advocate another one before the outcomes of this one have been enacted. That's the way the cookie crumbles I'm afraid...and I voted 'in'.
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Post by Samo on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 2:53 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I hope the marching of the bad losers is better than their tenuous grip on reality - they say more than 100,000 turned up in June for the first march. laughing

Luckily the magnanimity of the winners is helping to heal the divisions raised by the vote and its outcome.

I make no apology for mocking the slender minority of Remain voters who have revealed themselves to be the most vicious and abhorrent anti-democrats.

Most Remain voters have accepted the outcome with good grace and humility. Peace and love to them.

Would you say everyone going on the march is a 'vicious and abhorrent anti-democrat'?

Everyone who wants to overturn the democratic decision, without it first being implemented, are vicious and abhorrent anti-democrats.

Sorry thats just absolute nonsense.  One of the tenants of democracy is being allowed to change your mind, either before a decision has been implemented or not.  

Sorry. Although my language is different to Duty's, I agree. There's no real evidence of any sea change in opinion from those that voted 'out' in the Referendum. Without that, there's no way you can seriously advocate another one before the outcomes of this one have been enacted. That's the way the cookie crumbles I'm afraid...and I voted 'in'.

So you've never changed your mind about something before you did it? Its like if your decorating your bedroom. You buy a tester pot of a paint you think you like, you try it, but it doesnt look great in the light of the room. Do you then buy that paint anyway and paint all the walls before trying a new paint? No, of course you dont. In this case, the past 2 years of negotiations have been the tester pot. We've put it on the wall, now we need to decide if it looks right or not.

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Post by MrInvisible on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 4:45 pm

I strongly disagree with the premise that a 2nd referendum on Brexit is somehow anti-democratic. The original 2016 referendum was handled poorly (from both sides) and very few people had a clear idea of what the alternatives to being in the EU would actually involve. Now, whilst there will still undoubtedly be many without the foggiest idea, we have had 2 and a half years of in-depth discussions on the subject so the electorate will be better educated on what the different outcomes involve.

Also, leaving aside the short-lived fixed-term parliament act, our political system allows for elections to be called frequently. Was it anti-democratic for Theresa May to call another general election in 2017 so soon after 2015? Opportunistic and ill-advised maybe, but giving people another opportunity to exercise their democratic right is hardly anti-democratic.

I think Brexiters are running scared. If they were that concerned about the democratic will they'd be welcoming a 2nd referendum with open arms, as surely that will give the opportunity to validate leaving the EU and coalesce around one type of post-EU model.

I'm sure many people are bored with Brexit and 'just want them to get on with it' but this sort of mentality plays right into the hands of Rees Mogg and his dodgy ERG chums who are wanting us to be hoodwinked into a hard Brexit with minimal rights and regulations before we have a chance to wake up and stop it.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 5:16 pm

So if Remain won a second referendum by the same margin as the Leavers won the last one?

What then?

Two or three more years of "How will we negotiate ourselves back in?" and then another referendum to see if people really want to Remain at all after those two more years of thinking seriously about the consequences?

When is a vote a final decision of the people if the margins always say that there is room to change your mind?

What the Remain camp should probably realise also is that the mechanism for Leaving was enacted - the formal and legal process of Leaving adopted.  If the UK should change its mind now, I think the EU will still play hard ball on any re-entry.  
Their object is to make the UK an example for all others so that nobody ever asks to leave again.  They'd have the UK where they want them - begging to be allowed stay and having to meet new membership requirements.  I'd bet that adopting the Euro would be high on the list of 'conditions' of re-entry amongst other things.

Be careful what you wish for.  Always expect to be screwed by the EU and you won't go far wrong Wink

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 5:24 pm

So shouldn't we just let the Government get on with it and accept whatever May, as PM, comes up with? Remain MPs and Leave MPs should surely all just shut up toe the line, as the original vote gave May the mandate.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 5:31 pm

Yep, that might be what a Referendum should mean alright.

No problem with people chatting about things of course.....

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Post by Samo on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 5:35 pm

SecretFly wrote:Yep, that might be what a Referendum should mean alright.

No problem with people chatting about things of course.....

You mean an advisory referendum that had no legal mandate? That referendum?

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 5:40 pm

SecretFly wrote:Yep, that might be what a Referendum should mean alright.

No problem with people chatting about things of course.....

How about if they get together in large numbers in one place and chat loudly?

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 5:43 pm

No, I mean democracy. The people should decide what they want, don't you think? Or else it's back to Queen Elizabeth and her Nobles doing the thinking for the unthinking serfs.

I do actually and serious think many talking heads in European politics right now wouldn't mind such a structure at all - after all, China gets away with it, don't they.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 5:45 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Yep, that might be what a Referendum should mean alright.

No problem with people chatting about things of course.....

How about if they get together in large numbers in one place and chat loudly?

NO PROBLEMO from my end Julius. I ADORE free speech

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 5:45 pm

SecretFly wrote: to Samo: No, I mean democracy.  The people should decide what they want, don't you think?  Or else it's back to Queen Elizabeth and her Nobles doing the thinking for the unthinking serfs.  

I do actually and serious think many talking heads in European politics right now wouldn't mind such a structure at all - after all, China gets away with it, don't they.

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Post by Samo on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 5:58 pm

SecretFly wrote:No, I mean democracy.  The people should decide what they want, don't you think?  Or else it's back to Queen Elizabeth and her Nobles doing the thinking for the unthinking serfs.  

I do actually and serious think many talking heads in European politics right now wouldn't mind such a structure at all - after all, China gets away with it, don't they.

Theres a reason Socrates disagreed with open democracy. People who vote on subjects they have no idea on leads to demagoguery which leads to the likes of Rees-Mogg and Trump.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 15 Oct 2018, 6:41 pm

Samo wrote:
SecretFly wrote:No, I mean democracy.  The people should decide what they want, don't you think?  Or else it's back to Queen Elizabeth and her Nobles doing the thinking for the unthinking serfs.  

I do actually and serious think many talking heads in European politics right now wouldn't mind such a structure at all - after all, China gets away with it, don't they.

Theres a reason Socrates disagreed with open democracy.  People who vote on subjects they have no idea on leads to demagoguery which leads to the likes of Rees-Mogg and Trump.

Dangerous thinking by both you and Socrates Samo.  Wouldn't agree with a millimetre of it.

Firstly Socrates himself is a composite figure imagined from the minds of Philosophers who followed him.  So a few pinches of salt are needed when 'reading' his thoughts on anything.

Secondly, claiming that certain people should be denied their democratic voice because they know too little is the very same as claiming that certain people should be denied their democratic voice because they know too much.

How many fascist/despot regimes kill off the intelligentsia before claiming full control?  Pol Pot?  Hitler?  Stalin?

Well to me it's the same fascism to then enslave the rest (the remaining 'uneducated' masses with "no idea") under regimes that allow no more voting for the 'ignorant'.

Socrates was evidently a bit of a fascist.  Mainland Europe knows all about Fascism.  But now we're told they're all experts in true democracy - lecturing America of all places how to be truly Democratic.  Shocked   I laugh.  

Nope, they're new to the Democracy party and some of them appear to be getting very bored with this 'government of the people, by the people' experiment again.

I choose to bow to the greater instincts once again displayed by the normal British people.  They sensed trouble and elected to get out when the going was good.  I hope they/you go ahead with it and make a bloody great success of it   Bubbly

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Post by Pr4wn on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 1:59 am

Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I hope the marching of the bad losers is better than their tenuous grip on reality - they say more than 100,000 turned up in June for the first march. laughing

This wholly sums up how puerile this who "you lost, get over it" argument really is. Pathetic.

Can't read any of your posts without first remembering what you said to me a few weeks before the referendum - something about how my tears would be delicious after Leave lost the referendum. That was truly puerile. Laugh Laugh

Not engaging with the subject matter posted then, old chap? Thought not.

You don't post subject matter, old boy. You post drivel of the highest order, the only purpose of which gives myself a good laugh.

Says he who didn't quote the second line of my post, the one that contained the very subject matter which he refuses to address. Because it doesn't fit the narrative.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 10:57 am

Don't moan people............... MARCH!

Hut, two, three, four!

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 11:18 am

Why March when we have May?

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 11:56 am

March to end May?

January, February, March, April, Boris, June, July, August, September, October, November, December.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 12:18 pm

May is delivering Brexit. Can't understand why some Leavers are against her. Unless of course, the actual terms of Brexit that people voted for wasn't properly defined in the referendum question. Nah, that would just make us all look like idiots.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 2:52 pm

Samo wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I hope the marching of the bad losers is better than their tenuous grip on reality - they say more than 100,000 turned up in June for the first march. laughing

Luckily the magnanimity of the winners is helping to heal the divisions raised by the vote and its outcome.

I make no apology for mocking the slender minority of Remain voters who have revealed themselves to be the most vicious and abhorrent anti-democrats.

Most Remain voters have accepted the outcome with good grace and humility. Peace and love to them.

Would you say everyone going on the march is a 'vicious and abhorrent anti-democrat'?

Everyone who wants to overturn the democratic decision, without it first being implemented, are vicious and abhorrent anti-democrats.

Sorry thats just absolute nonsense.  One of the tenants of democracy is being allowed to change your mind, either before a decision has been implemented or not.  

Sorry. Although my language is different to Duty's, I agree. There's no real evidence of any sea change in opinion from those that voted 'out' in the Referendum. Without that, there's no way you can seriously advocate another one before the outcomes of this one have been enacted. That's the way the cookie crumbles I'm afraid...and I voted 'in'.

So you've never changed your mind about something before you did it?  Its like if your decorating your bedroom.  You buy a tester pot of a paint you think you like, you try it, but it doesnt look great in the light of the room.  Do you then buy that paint anyway and paint all the walls before trying a new paint?  No, of course you dont.  In this case, the past 2 years of negotiations have been the tester pot.  We've put it on the wall, now we need to decide if it looks right or not.
Not exactly a very relevant analogy is it? I'm not buying paints. As I said before, if the ~51% who voted out aren't showing major signs of wanting to 'take the tester pot back', there's no second referendum. Doing so would be storing immense issues for politics in this country for a generation.
Those that didn't get out and vote for staying in on the referendum in 2016 need to look at themselves. If 'remain' was so obvious and so important, where were they??
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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 2:57 pm

MrInvisible wrote:I strongly disagree with the premise that a 2nd referendum on Brexit is somehow anti-democratic.  The original 2016 referendum was handled poorly (from both sides) and very few people had a clear idea of what the alternatives to being in the EU would actually involve.  Now, whilst there will still undoubtedly be many without the foggiest idea, we have had 2 and a half years of in-depth discussions on the subject so the electorate will be better educated on what the different outcomes involve.

Also, leaving aside the short-lived fixed-term parliament act, our political system allows for elections to be called frequently.  Was it anti-democratic for Theresa May to call another general election in 2017 so soon after 2015?  Opportunistic and ill-advised maybe, but giving people another opportunity to exercise their democratic right is hardly anti-democratic.

I think Brexiters are running scared.  If they were that concerned about the democratic will they'd be welcoming a 2nd referendum with open arms, as surely that will give the opportunity to validate leaving the EU and coalesce around one type of post-EU model.  

I'm sure many people are bored with Brexit and 'just want them to get on with it' but this sort of mentality plays right into the hands of Rees Mogg and his dodgy ERG chums who are wanting us to be hoodwinked into a hard Brexit with minimal rights and regulations before we have a chance to wake up and stop it.
Not a good analogy. The 2015 election occurred and we had 2 years of Cameron/May. The result was implemented. You can't have another Referendum when the outcome of the last one hasn't been enacted! Your analogy is like saying that if Cameron won in 2015, we should have another General Election before he'd formed a Government.
Despite what you (or I) might think about the consequences of Brexit, we don't actually know. If it's sh!t in 5, 10, 15 years, by all means have another one, if the demand country-wide is there, and negotiate membership of the EU again. It'll be entirely by their rules then though. No rebates, having the Euro etc.

Edit: I'd happily support calls for a second Referendum if it's proved that there was illegal stuff going on re. financing, the Russian mob or whatever. Until that time, however...


Last edited by navyblueshorts on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 3:17 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 3:01 pm

SecretFly wrote:So if Remain won a second referendum by the same margin as the Leavers won the last one?

What then?

Two or three more years of "How will we negotiate ourselves back in?" and then another referendum to see if people really want to Remain at all after those two more years of thinking seriously about the consequences?

When is a vote a final decision of the people if the margins always say that there is room to change your mind?

What the Remain camp should probably realise also is that the mechanism for Leaving was enacted - the formal and legal process of Leaving adopted.  If the UK should change its mind now, I think the EU will still play hard ball on any re-entry.  
Their object is to make the UK an example for all others so that nobody ever asks to leave again.  They'd have the UK where they want them - begging to be allowed stay and having to meet new membership requirements.  I'd bet that adopting the Euro would be high on the list of 'conditions' of re-entry amongst other things.

Be careful what you wish for.  Always expect to be screwed by the EU and you won't go far wrong Wink
I agree with all this (Hug), apart from the highlighted bit (and the last sentence; you had to mess it up didn't you?). They're playing hardball, because they can't be seen to give a country a good deal without being part of the EU club. Fair enough to me and it was us that asked to leave.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 3:02 pm

Samo wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Yep, that might be what a Referendum should mean alright.

No problem with people chatting about things of course.....

You mean an advisory referendum that had no legal mandate?  That referendum?
Splitting hairs. No-one is going to give you a second referendum. Not yet, at any rate.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 3:11 pm

Samo wrote:
SecretFly wrote:No, I mean democracy.  The people should decide what they want, don't you think?  Or else it's back to Queen Elizabeth and her Nobles doing the thinking for the unthinking serfs.  

I do actually and serious think many talking heads in European politics right now wouldn't mind such a structure at all - after all, China gets away with it, don't they.

Theres a reason Socrates disagreed with open democracy.  People who vote on subjects they have no idea on leads to demagoguery which leads to the likes of Rees-Mogg and Trump.
Ah, the logic of the superior states-person. The answer isn't to disenfranchise the serfs; it's to give them the knowledge/education/whatever to enable them to make an informed choice. Your suggestion is just an excuse for poor education, sh!te politicians and sh!te levels of debate around anything that's important in this country.
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Post by Hero on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 3:30 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Samo wrote:
SecretFly wrote:No, I mean democracy.  The people should decide what they want, don't you think?  Or else it's back to Queen Elizabeth and her Nobles doing the thinking for the unthinking serfs.  

I do actually and serious think many talking heads in European politics right now wouldn't mind such a structure at all - after all, China gets away with it, don't they.

Theres a reason Socrates disagreed with open democracy.  People who vote on subjects they have no idea on leads to demagoguery which leads to the likes of Rees-Mogg and Trump.
Ah, the logic of the superior states-person. The answer isn't to disenfranchise the serfs; it's to give them the knowledge/education/whatever to enable them to make an informed choice. Your suggestion is just an excuse for poor education, sh!te politicians and sh!te levels of debate around anything that's important in this country.

Which is what the Tories will be implementing across the country post Brexit being that we'll suddenly need loads of low skill workers once immigration rules kick in. Handing them the keys to pump less money into school funding.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 4:02 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:Not a good analogy. The 2015 election occurred and we had 2 years of Cameron/May. The result was implemented. You can't have another Referendum when the outcome of the last one hasn't been enacted! Your analogy is like saying that if Cameron won in 2015, we should have another General Election before he'd formed a Government.
Despite what you (or I) might think about the consequences of Brexit, we don't actually know. If it's sh!t in 5, 10, 15 years, by all means have another one, if the demand country-wide is there, and negotiate membership of the EU again.

Exactly this.

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Post by Hero on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 4:48 pm

How's this analogy wise then...(not of my doing)



LEAVER: I want an omelette.

REMAINER: Right. It’s just we haven’t got any eggs.

LEAVER: Yes, we have. There they are. [HE POINTS AT A CAKE]

REMAINER: They’re in the cake.

LEAVER: Yes, get them out of the cake, please.

REMAINER: But we voted in 1974 to put them into a cake.

LEAVER: Yes, but that cake has got icing on it. Nobody said there was going to be icing on it.

REMAINER: Icing is good.

LEAVER: And there are raisins in it. I don’t like raisins. Nobody mentioned raisins. I demand another vote.

DAVID CAMERON ENTERS.

DAVID CAMERON: OK.

DAVID CAMERON SCARPERS.

LEAVER: Right, where’s my omelette?

REMAINER: I told you, the eggs are in the cake.

LEAVER: Well, get them out.

EU: It’s our cake.

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes, get them out now.

REMAINER: I have absolutely no idea how to get them out. Don’t you know how to get them out?

LEAVER: Yes! You just get them out and then you make an omelette.

REMAINER: But how?! Didn’t you give this any thought?

LEAVER: Saboteur! You’re talking eggs down. We could make omelettes before the eggs went into the cake, so there’s no reason why we can’t make them now.

THERESA MAY: It’s OK, I can do it.

REMAINER: How?

THERESA MAY: There was a vote to remove the eggs from the cake, and so the eggs will be removed from the cake.

REMAINER: Yeah, but…

LEAVER: Hang on, if we take the eggs out of the cake, does that mean we don’t have any cake? I didn’t say I didn’t want the cake, just the bits I don’t like.

EU: It’s our cake.

REMAINER: But you can’t take the eggs out of the cake and then still have a cake.

LEAVER: You can. I saw the latest Bake Off and you can definitely make cakes without eggs in them. It’s just that they’re horrible.

REMAINER: Fine. Take the eggs out. See what happens.

LEAVER: It’s not my responsibility to take the eggs out. Get on with it.

REMAINER: Why should I have to come up with some long-winded incredibly difficult chemical process to extract eggs that have bonded at the molecular level to the cake, while somehow still having the cake?

LEAVER: You lost, get over it.

THERESA MAY: By the way, I’ve started the clock on this.

REMAINER: So I assume you have a plan?

THERESA MAY: Actually, back in a bit. Just having another election.

REMAINER: Jeremy, are you going to sort this out?

JEREMY CORBYN: Yes. No. Maybe.

EU: It’s our cake.

LEAVER: Where’s my omelette? I voted for an omelette.

REMAINER: This is ridiculous. This is never going to work. We should have another vote, or at least stop what we’re doing until we know how to get the eggs out of the cake while keeping the bits of the cake that we all like.

LEAVER/MAY/CORBYN: WE HAD A VOTE. STOP SABOTAGING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE. EGGSIT MEANS EGGSIT.

REMAINER: Fine, I’m moving to France. The cakes are nicer there.

LEAVER: You can’t. We’ve taken your freedom of movement.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 5:14 pm

Laugh OK
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Post by Samo on Tue 16 Oct 2018, 5:51 pm

10/10

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 1:52 pm

TNS/Kantar..

EU...

Remain 60% (+7)
Leave... 40% (-7)


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Post by SecretFly on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 9:07 pm

That's one dumb Leaver. Why didn't he just point to a Chicken? I think he sounds dumb enough to be a secret Remainer trying to get another vote.........................

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Wed 17 Oct 2018, 10:29 pm

The whole thing would be easier if we just let the EU dictate all the terms. That way we are out of the EU, end of story. The Leavers can't complain, because that's exactly what they voted for and the Remainers can't complain, as they lost the vote.

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 18 Oct 2018, 11:12 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:TNS/Kantar..

EU...

Remain 60% (+7)
Leave... 40%  (-7)


Completely pointless poll. Amongst others, it asked 15 year olds and EU citizens who currently live in the U.K.

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Post by Hero on Thu 18 Oct 2018, 11:25 am

So... Northern Ireland?
What's the answer?

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 18 Oct 2018, 12:16 pm

Hero wrote:So... Northern Ireland?
What's the answer?

It's an invented issue, so there is no answer, because there is no problem. Reports from the European Parliament and the Legatum Institute have already confirmed this. Keep the common travel area, co-operate on customs inspections (largely automated due to technology) and everything is fine.

These 'negotiations' are just a faff. Bloody faff.

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 18 Oct 2018, 12:18 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Hero wrote:So... Northern Ireland?
What's the answer?

It's an invented issue, so there is no answer, because there is no problem. Reports from the European Parliament and the Legatum Institute have already confirmed this. Keep the common travel area, co-operate on customs inspections (largely automated due to technology) and everything is fine.

These 'negotiations' are just a faff. Bloody faff.

If it was that easy they would have resolved this by now. They haven't.

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