Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

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Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by bsando on Mon 13 Nov 2017, 9:59 am

First topic message reminder :

SCOTLAND


VS

NEW ZEALAND


Round 31

Brief History

Scotland 0 wins 2 Draws
New Zealand 28 wins 2 draws

Last time Scotland played NZ in Scotland was the 15th of November 2014 (Score: 16 - 24 to NZ)

Last time Scotland played NZ in NZ was the 1st of July 2000 (Score: 48 - 14 to NZ)

On the 18th of January 1964, Scotland played NZ at Murrayfield resulting in an unusual scoreline of 0 - 0

Teams

Scotland


All Kittens

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/98933295/all-blacks-delay-team-naming-pondering-final-selections-for-scotland-test


Last edited by bsando on Thu 16 Nov 2017, 3:46 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 3:51 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:exactly - it doesn't fit citing criteria I don't think

Citings are red card offences only. That clearly wasn't a red card, as horribly cynical as it was.


A yellow and a penalty try for my money.

I'm afraid you can't give a penalty try for that, there's no evidence that a try would probably have been scored if you take Read out of the play. NZ have plenty of defenders left. Definite YC though, cynical infringement in the red zone.

Shame the ref missed it, but it can happen. I felt overall he had a good game actually, was pretty consistent throughout, most annoying was him allowing the TMO to talk him out of the YC for the tackle on Hogg in the air.

A try was scored 2 seconds after that knock on when people thought the game was still live.

True, but that was as a result of the ball squirting out from Read's slap and Scotland reacting quickest to the loose ball. The guidance re penalty tries is to remove the offender from the picture and judge whether a try would probably have been scored. In this case there are a couple of NZ players behind Read in a position to tackle Gray. He might have powered through for the try as he did for one previously, but you can't really state that with any great degree of confidence IMO.

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 3:54 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:exactly - it doesn't fit citing criteria I don't think

Citings are red card offences only. That clearly wasn't a red card, as horribly cynical as it was.


A yellow and a penalty try for my money.

I'm afraid you can't give a penalty try for that, there's no evidence that a try would probably have been scored if you take Read out of the play. NZ have plenty of defenders left. Definite YC though, cynical infringement in the red zone.

Shame the ref missed it, but it can happen. I felt overall he had a good game actually, was pretty consistent throughout, most annoying was him allowing the TMO to talk him out of the YC for the tackle on Hogg in the air.

A try was scored 2 seconds after that knock on when people thought the game was still live.

True, but that was as a result of the ball squirting out from Read's slap and Scotland reacting quickest to the loose ball. The guidance re penalty tries is to remove the offender from the picture and judge whether a try would probably have been scored. In this case there are a couple of NZ players behind Read in a position to tackle Gray. He might have powered through for the try as he did for one previously, but you can't really state that with any great degree of confidence IMO.

Yeah you are probably right. I do think that Scotland need to wise up a bit at the cheating part of the game. We are not very good at it, and IMO it seems to be the difference maker between the top sides and those vying for position.
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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by tigertattie on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 4:13 pm

Surely there's a case for citing when bringing the game into disrepute.

I fully understand many penalties are not intentional, like not supporting your weight at a ruck and flopping over the ball or crossing.

What Reid did though was intentional and as it was missed during the game, you'd think there was some recourse to punish his behavior!
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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by Gwlad on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 9:02 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Its SNAFU with NZ. They cheat, always have, maybe thats why they're the best in the world. They have no concept of sportsmanship - look at Fat Shags comments post game - arrogance personified. Its about time they were taken down by having to follow the rules like the rest if us

Geez, do you ever even hit the dartboard?

Yours every time Laugh

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by Heaf on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 10:40 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
Mad for Chelsea wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:exactly - it doesn't fit citing criteria I don't think

Citings are red card offences only. That clearly wasn't a red card, as horribly cynical as it was.


A yellow and a penalty try for my money.

I'm afraid you can't give a penalty try for that, there's no evidence that a try would probably have been scored if you take Read out of the play. NZ have plenty of defenders left. Definite YC though, cynical infringement in the red zone.

Shame the ref missed it, but it can happen. I felt overall he had a good game actually, was pretty consistent throughout, most annoying was him allowing the TMO to talk him out of the YC for the tackle on Hogg in the air.

A try was scored 2 seconds after that knock on when people thought the game was still live.

True, but that was as a result of the ball squirting out from Read's slap and Scotland reacting quickest to the loose ball. The guidance re penalty tries is to remove the offender from the picture and judge whether a try would probably have been scored. In this case there are a couple of NZ players behind Read in a position to tackle Gray. He might have powered through for the try as he did for one previously, but you can't really state that with any great degree of confidence IMO.

What the ref should have done is just played on as there was no knock-on so Scotland score and Reid ironically contributes to the try with his illegal act.

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by Cyril on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 11:04 pm

This happens all the time (several times per game probably). Not sure why Read is being castigated above others in this.

There were plenty of moments when Scotland got the rub of the green and were probably lucky to still be in it (all have 15 men on the field) in the later stages.

It was a good effort by Scotland, but I don't think anyone could argue about the result or the better side winning.

NZ were below par and Scotland gave a good account of themselves, but let's not get carried away.

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by reallybored on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 11:21 pm

Read should have gone to the bin, it was a professional foul of the highest order and deserved a YC.  But fair play to him, he gambled and got away with it.

Would we have won had they been reduced to 13 for the final 8 minutes? Possibly.


Having watched the game back, blown away by the level of performance from the team.  So many classy moments and awesome commitment at the breakdown, really matched the All Black intensity.

Heartbreaking to not quite get there but hopefully they build on this and push on, this is a special group of players.

Hogg is God.

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by Gwlad on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 11:35 pm

Cyril wrote:This happens all the time (several times per game probably). Not sure why Read is being castigated above others in this.

There were plenty of moments when Scotland got the rub of the green and were probably lucky to still be in it (all have 15 men on the field) in the later stages.

It was a good effort by Scotland, but I don't think anyone could argue about the result or the better side winning.

NZ were below par and Scotland gave a good account of themselves, but let's not get carried away.

Something else you're a 'bit behind on'

Surprised you can type with your head stuck up your a$%^

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by Cyril on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 11:39 pm

Gwlad wrote:
Cyril wrote:This happens all the time (several times per game probably). Not sure why Read is being castigated above others in this.

There were plenty of moments when Scotland got the rub of the green and were probably lucky to still be in it (all have 15 men on the field) in the later stages.

It was a good effort by Scotland, but I don't think anyone could argue about the result or the better side winning.

NZ were below par and Scotland gave a good account of themselves, but let's not get carried away.

Something else you're a 'bit behind on'

Surprised you can type with your head stuck up your a$%^
Cheers mate. Hope you enjoyed your latest game  OK

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by ebop on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 3:58 am

Cyril wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Cyril wrote:This happens all the time (several times per game probably). Not sure why Read is being castigated above others in this.

There were plenty of moments when Scotland got the rub of the green and were probably lucky to still be in it (all have 15 men on the field) in the later stages.

It was a good effort by Scotland, but I don't think anyone could argue about the result or the better side winning.

NZ were below par and Scotland gave a good account of themselves, but let's not get carried away.

Something else you're a 'bit behind on'

Surprised you can type with your head stuck up your a$%^
Cheers mate. Hope you enjoyed your latest game  OK
Nailed it Cyril clap

I see the resident village idiot thinks otherwise
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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by Gwlad on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 6:18 am

ebop wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Cyril wrote:This happens all the time (several times per game probably). Not sure why Read is being castigated above others in this.

There were plenty of moments when Scotland got the rub of the green and were probably lucky to still be in it (all have 15 men on the field) in the later stages.

It was a good effort by Scotland, but I don't think anyone could argue about the result or the better side winning.

NZ were below par and Scotland gave a good account of themselves, but let's not get carried away.

Something else you're a 'bit behind on'

Surprised you can type with your head stuck up your a$%^
Cheers mate. Hope you enjoyed your latest game  OK
Nailed it Cyril clap

I see the resident village idiot thinks otherwise

You mean Hansen, I can see why you and him see eye to eye. Laugh

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 8:12 am

Well this was a thread with some positive discussion...
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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 9:04 am

tigertattie wrote:Surely there's a case for citing when bringing the game into disrepute.

I fully understand many penalties are not intentional, like not supporting your weight at a ruck and flopping over the ball or crossing.

What Reid did though was intentional and as it was missed during the game, you'd think there was some recourse to punish his behavior!

How is a technical foul play bringing the game into disrepute? Jumping off a ship into the ocean during a world cup is bringing the game into disrepute.

Reed was gambling but the black cloak that New Zealand seem to have was on again. They do it all thew time and they get away with it all the time. And when they do it, it's called "playing the ref". When other teams do it, and get penalised, it's "terrible lack of discipline".

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 9:07 am

Got to say I can't agree with tattie here - there's no reason why Reid should be cited.

I also don't think it is right to see lots of anger directed towards him - this kind of play happens all the time in rugby and usually it is forgotten about because they get penalised and yellow carded. The ref missed this (despite being right in front of him) so it is his mistake.

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 9:11 am

READ....can't be cited and shouldn't be.

It was a clever/cynical play, very McCaw-esq. If you can get away with this stuff you do, he was a very luck boy.

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 9:12 am

Whoops - I didn't think 'Reid' looked correct....

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 9:17 am

Haha....Reed, Reid, Read...luckily we're not discussing Viliame Waqaseduadua, that could get messy.

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by BigGee on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 9:35 am

Illegal play in rugby, especially in the close quarter stuff, rucks and mauls, has gone on since time and memorial. It is nothing to do with professionalism, the only difference now is that they are coached how to do it.

It is only cheating if you get caught and the All Blacks just seem to get caught less than anyone else!

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by SecretFly on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 9:51 am

Nah, cheating is cheating.... even if it ain't caught.

And plenty sides do it. Rugby is the closest thing to war on a playing field. Telling players who are steamed up and throwing themselves into seismic collisions with abandon (such becomes the nature of intense rugby); telling them to behave and mind their manners is like telling a bunch of soldiers not to try to ambush an enemy unit in a pincer manoeuvre coz it ain't sporting like.....

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by lostinwales on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 12:10 pm

Citings are only going to happen for dangerous play.

All else (however cynical) needs to be dealt with on the pitch by the ref with support from the linesmen/assistant ref/whatever they are these days, and the TMO

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 12:29 pm

BigGee wrote:Illegal play in rugby, especially in the close quarter stuff, rucks and mauls, has gone on since time and memorial. It is nothing to do with professionalism, the only difference now is that they are coached how to do it.

It is only cheating if you get caught and the All Blacks just seem to get caught less than anyone else!

So Neil Back didn't cheat? Ok then. Thierry Henry / Maradonna / Alex Rodriguez didn't cheat?

How all four officials missed that and the referee wasn't made aware of it only they will know.

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by BigGee on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 1:04 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
BigGee wrote:Illegal play in rugby, especially in the close quarter stuff, rucks and mauls, has gone on since time and memorial. It is nothing to do with professionalism, the only difference now is that they are coached how to do it.

It is only cheating if you get caught and the All Blacks just seem to get caught less than anyone else!

So Neil Back didn't cheat? Ok then. Thierry Henry / Maradonna / Alex Rodriguez didn't cheat?

How all four officials missed that and the referee wasn't made aware of it only they will know.

Anyone who goes for the illegal move knows that there is a risk/benefit to doing it. If Read had been spotted, then he would likely have been binned as well, NZ down to 13 and a good chance it would have cost them the game. He took the chance, got away with it and they won the game, that's rugby, sport in general and probably life.

This concept of fairplay, is a very Brittish one. There was no wailing in Argentina over the hand of god, they actually admired him for having the balls to give it a go and get away with it. Hero or villain, it's a fine line!

If you asked Madonna, Henry, Neil Back (or Joe Jordan in an honest reflective moment) if they were glad they did what they did, the answer would certainly be yes. I don't remember Scottish football fans being up in arms about it at the time, rather we all found the winging of the Welsh fans quite amusing.

I will stick to my original point. It is only cheating if you get caught. It would probably be a pretty boring game if no-one tried it on occasionally!


Last edited by BigGee on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : poor grammer)

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by George Carlin on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 2:22 pm

BigGee wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
BigGee wrote:Illegal play in rugby, especially in the close quarter stuff, rucks and mauls, has gone on since time and memorial. It is nothing to do with professionalism, the only difference now is that they are coached how to do it.

It is only cheating if you get caught and the All Blacks just seem to get caught less than anyone else!

So Neil Back didn't cheat? Ok then. Thierry Henry / Maradonna / Alex Rodriguez didn't cheat?

How all four officials missed that and the referee wasn't made aware of it only they will know.

Anyone who goes for the illegal move knows that there is a risk/benefit to doing it. If Read had been spotted, then he would likely have been binned as well, NZ down to 13 and a good chance it would have cost them the game. He took the chance, got away with it and they won the game, that's rugby, sport in general and probably life.

This concept of fairplay, is a very Brittish one. There was no wailing in Argentina over the hand of god, they actually admired him for having the balls to give it a go and get away with it. Hero or villain, it's a fine line!

If you asked Madonna, Henry, Neil Back (or Joe Jordan in an honest reflective moment) if they were glad they did what they did, the answer would certainly be yes. I don't remember Scottish football fans being up in arms about it at the time, rather we all found the winging of the Welsh fans quite amusing.

I will stick to my original point. It is only cheating if you get caught. It would probably be a pretty boring game if no-one tried it on occasionally!
The 'Hugh Grant' approach to life.
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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 2:30 pm

BigGee wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
BigGee wrote:Illegal play in rugby, especially in the close quarter stuff, rucks and mauls, has gone on since time and memorial. It is nothing to do with professionalism, the only difference now is that they are coached how to do it.

It is only cheating if you get caught and the All Blacks just seem to get caught less than anyone else!

So Neil Back didn't cheat? Ok then. Thierry Henry / Maradonna / Alex Rodriguez didn't cheat?

How all four officials missed that and the referee wasn't made aware of it only they will know.

Anyone who goes for the illegal move knows that there is a risk/benefit to doing it. If Read had been spotted, then he would likely have been binned as well, NZ down to 13 and a good chance it would have cost them the game. He took the chance, got away with it and they won the game, that's rugby, sport in general and probably life.

This concept of fairplay, is a very Brittish one. There was no wailing in Argentina over the hand of god, they actually admired him for having the balls to give it a go and get away with it. Hero or villain, it's a fine line!

If you asked Madonna, Henry, Neil Back (or Joe Jordan in an honest reflective moment) if they were glad they did what they did, the answer would certainly be yes. I don't remember Scottish football fans being up in arms about it at the time, rather we all found the winging of the Welsh fans quite amusing.

I will stick to my original point. It is only cheating if you get caught. It would probably be a pretty boring game if no-one tried it on occasionally!

And I'll stick to mine: You're spouting absolute nonsense.

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by BigGee on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 2:37 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
BigGee wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
BigGee wrote:Illegal play in rugby, especially in the close quarter stuff, rucks and mauls, has gone on since time and memorial. It is nothing to do with professionalism, the only difference now is that they are coached how to do it.

It is only cheating if you get caught and the All Blacks just seem to get caught less than anyone else!

So Neil Back didn't cheat? Ok then. Thierry Henry / Maradonna / Alex Rodriguez didn't cheat?

How all four officials missed that and the referee wasn't made aware of it only they will know.

Anyone who goes for the illegal move knows that there is a risk/benefit to doing it. If Read had been spotted, then he would likely have been binned as well, NZ down to 13 and a good chance it would have cost them the game. He took the chance, got away with it and they won the game, that's rugby, sport in general and probably life.

This concept of fairplay, is a very Brittish one. There was no wailing in Argentina over the hand of god, they actually admired him for having the balls to give it a go and get away with it. Hero or villain, it's a fine line!

If you asked Madonna, Henry, Neil Back (or Joe Jordan in an honest reflective moment) if they were glad they did what they did, the answer would certainly be yes. I don't remember Scottish football fans being up in arms about it at the time, rather we all found the winging of the Welsh fans quite amusing.

I will stick to my original point. It is only cheating if you get caught. It would probably be a pretty boring game if no-one tried it on occasionally!

And I'll stick to mine: You're spouting absolute nonsense.

Did you ever play rugby?

Never went a yard offside to get a flyer?

Never followed through on a tackle when you could have pulled out?

Never gave anyone a shove in the air?

And of course if you had, I expect you would then self refer yourself to the ref!

He who is without sin can cast the first stone!

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 2:41 pm

BigGee wrote:

Did you ever play rugby?
YES

Never went a yard offside to get a flyer?
YES

Never followed through on a tackle when you could have pulled out?
YES

Never gave anyone a shove in the air?
YES

[quoteAnd of course if you had, I expect you would then self refer yourself to the ref!

He who is without sin can cast the first stone!

That's where you lose it. This moronic thinking that the player breaking the law has to own up to his misdemeanour. Why are you linking this to a player breaking the laws? It's quite bizarre.

Players cheat. All the time. Players get caught all the time. Players get away with it all the time. Read Cheated. He got away with it.

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 2:45 pm

I'm pretty sure Rugbyfan that you're of the same opinion as Biggee and completely missing his point / tone of writing...

It's probably not helped by you saying he's sprouting nonsense and not saying why!

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by aucklandlaurie on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 2:46 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
BigGee wrote:

Did you ever play rugby?
YES

Never went a yard offside to get a flyer?
YES

Never followed through on a tackle when you could have pulled out?
YES

Never gave anyone a shove in the air?
YES

[quoteAnd of course if you had, I expect you would then self refer yourself to the ref!

He who is without sin can cast the first stone!

That's where you lose it. This moronic thinking that the player breaking the law has to own up to his misdemeanour. Why are you linking this to a player breaking the laws? It's quite bizarre.

Players cheat. All the time. Players get caught all the time. Players get away with it all the time. Read Cheated. He got away with it.

 Probably the word "Cheat" is a bit too strong?

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 2:51 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
BigGee wrote:

Did you ever play rugby?
YES

Never went a yard offside to get a flyer?
YES

Never followed through on a tackle when you could have pulled out?
YES

Never gave anyone a shove in the air?
YES

[quoteAnd of course if you had, I expect you would then self refer yourself to the ref!

He who is without sin can cast the first stone!

That's where you lose it. This moronic thinking that the player breaking the law has to own up to his misdemeanour. Why are you linking this to a player breaking the laws? It's quite bizarre.

Players cheat. All the time. Players get caught all the time. Players get away with it all the time. Read Cheated. He got away with it.

 Probably the word "Cheat" is a bit too strong?

Cheat

verb
gerund or present participle: cheating
1.act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.


Nah it hits the nail to be fair.
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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by aucklandlaurie on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 2:56 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
BigGee wrote:

Did you ever play rugby?
YES

Never went a yard offside to get a flyer?
YES

Never followed through on a tackle when you could have pulled out?
YES

Never gave anyone a shove in the air?
YES

[quoteAnd of course if you had, I expect you would then self refer yourself to the ref!

He who is without sin can cast the first stone!

That's where you lose it. This moronic thinking that the player breaking the law has to own up to his misdemeanour. Why are you linking this to a player breaking the laws? It's quite bizarre.

Players cheat. All the time. Players get caught all the time. Players get away with it all the time. Read Cheated. He got away with it.

 Probably the word "Cheat" is a bit too strong?

Cheat

verb
gerund or present participle: cheating
1.act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.


Nah it hits the nail to be fair.

 Q. How do you know that Read was acting dishonestly?..A.You dont.

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 3:00 pm

A 32 year old rugby great with over 100 caps should probably know it is against the rules to hit the ball out of a player's hands while you're lying on the ground - it is a fair assumption to make that it was a deliberate act...

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 3:00 pm

Christ on a tandem. I'm out.

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by BigGee on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 3:01 pm

In the general commentary on this event plenty of commentators referred to Read as cynical. I would not disagree with that.

A few called him clever, some called him both. I would not disagree with that either.

I don't recall any serious commentator referring to him as a cheat though.

If the definition of a cheat is a rugby player who breaks the rules and gets away with it. Then we spent Saturday afternoon watching 30 blokes cheating.

I prefer to look at it as I spent Saturday afternoon watching a great game of rugby and I am a Scottish fan who would have every right to feel aggrieved by what Read did.

Generally what goes around comes around, even if it takes a lot longer to get there if you are a Scottish rugby fan!

One day Read or someone similar will get caught doing something similar and it will cost them an important game.

Natural justice!

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 3:03 pm

BigGee wrote:In the general commentary on this event plenty of commentators referred to Read as cynical. I would not disagree with that.

A few called him clever, some called him both. I would not disagree with that either.

I don't recall any serious commentator referring to him as a cheat though.

If the definition of a cheat is a rugby player who breaks the rules and gets away with it. Then we spent Saturday afternoon watching 30 blokes cheating.

I prefer to look at it as I spent Saturday afternoon watching a great game of rugby and I am a Scottish fan who would have every right to feel aggrieved by what Read did.

Generally what goes around comes around, even if it takes a lot longer to get there if you are a Scottish rugby fan!

One day Read or someone similar will get caught doing something similar and it will cost them an important game.

Natural justice!

This.

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 3:04 pm

Dishonestly or unfairly, it says.

What Read did, based purely on that footage earlier, would have been penalised if seen therefore surely counts as unfair. It is similar to the Neil Back incident in the HC final 2002. Both cynically and deliberate rule infringements to gain an advantage - so long as officials do not see it.

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by aucklandlaurie on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 3:08 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:A 32 year old rugby great with over 100 caps should probably know it is against the rules to hit the ball out of a player's hands while you're lying on the ground - it is a fair assumption to make that it was a deliberate act...

 "Should probably" and "assumption" is not the same as knowledge of a deliberate act and to take it one step further to qualify to the title of Cheat.

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 3:14 pm

He cheated. He deliberately knocked the ball on to deny a try. His team gained an advantage. I am not criticizing him for it. Calling him a cheat is not a criticism it is a fact.

I played rugby for the best part of 15 years and I cheated like hell when I played. Just about every scrum I was involved in I either bored in, twisted arms, and did whatever I could to get an advantage. It was still cheating though.

I think I said in this very thread a few posts back that NZ won predominantly by playing very cynical stuff when they were under the cosh. Read is just one example of probably about half a dozen instances that could have resulted in yellow cards.

Let me be clear I'm not criticizing it. It's bloody smart play that ultimately won NZ the match. Scotland need to find a bit more of that kind of play and that will turn us from a good team into a great team.

Let's not get too sensitive about the word cheat, because it's definition lends itself very well to what Read did thumbsup
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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by R!skysports on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 3:52 pm

- Bloody fing cheat

Who?

All of them

Very Happy

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by SecretFly on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 3:55 pm

Hogg ain't no cheat though...yet he did pick up an honorary Oscar one time for trying... Run

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 4:01 pm

SecretFly wrote:Hogg ain't no cheat though...yet he did pick up an honorary Oscar one time for trying... Run

For me, that's not just cheating, thats being a category 1 walloper. Thankfully he has got rid of all those tenancies, people also forget he was 22 during the last world cup.
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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by aucklandlaurie on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 4:30 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:He cheated. He deliberately knocked the ball on to deny a try. His team gained an advantage. I am not criticizing him for it. Calling him a cheat is not a criticism it is a fact.

I played rugby for the best part of 15 years and I cheated like hell when I played. Just about every scrum I was involved in I either bored in, twisted arms, and did whatever I could to get an advantage. It was still cheating though.

I think I said in this very thread a few posts back that NZ won predominantly by playing very cynical stuff when they were under the cosh. Read is just one example of probably about half a dozen instances that could have resulted in yellow cards.

Let me be clear I'm not criticizing it. It's bloody smart play that ultimately won NZ the match. Scotland need to find a bit more of that kind of play and that will turn us from a good team into a great team.

Let's not get too sensitive about the word cheat, because it's definition lends itself very well to what Read did thumbsup

 The game is over, so post match calling him a cheat is nothing more than engaging in calling people names.

 The All Blacks have gone for years being called cheats, usually immediately prior or immediately after games where they (The ABs) have gone on to win.

 I understand it can be frustrating for a team to consistantly beat your team, but lets not distract ourselves by calling player(s) names just because they won?

 Richie McCaw went his whole career with "Cheat" for a second name by fans of countries who saw him lead the ABs to victories over their teams.yes, it may have been an outlet for people's frustration, but that is not where Scotland's focus should be, Noone wishes anything less than for Scottish fans having a Great Team and it will happen, but the greater the team becomes then be prepared for a bit of name calling.

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by SecretFly on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 4:37 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote: Noone wishes anything less than for Scottish fans having a Great Team and it will happen, .

I do... a lot less. Why would we want the f**king French, English, Welsh and Scots beating the crap out of us in 6N?

I hope for them that they gain a very goodish team that's not too great and still lets in a few easy tries....

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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 4:43 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:He cheated. He deliberately knocked the ball on to deny a try. His team gained an advantage. I am not criticizing him for it. Calling him a cheat is not a criticism it is a fact.

I played rugby for the best part of 15 years and I cheated like hell when I played. Just about every scrum I was involved in I either bored in, twisted arms, and did whatever I could to get an advantage. It was still cheating though.

I think I said in this very thread a few posts back that NZ won predominantly by playing very cynical stuff when they were under the cosh. Read is just one example of probably about half a dozen instances that could have resulted in yellow cards.

Let me be clear I'm not criticizing it. It's bloody smart play that ultimately won NZ the match. Scotland need to find a bit more of that kind of play and that will turn us from a good team into a great team.

Let's not get too sensitive about the word cheat, because it's definition lends itself very well to what Read did thumbsup

 The game is over, so post match calling him a cheat is nothing more than engaging in calling people names.

 The All Blacks have gone for years being called cheats, usually immediately prior or immediately after games where they (The ABs) have gone on to win.

 I understand it can be frustrating for a team to consistantly beat your team, but lets not distract ourselves by calling player(s) names just because they won?

 Richie McCaw went his whole career with "Cheat" for a second name by fans of countries who saw him lead the ABs to victories over their teams.yes, it may have been an outlet for people's frustration, but that is not where Scotland's focus should be, Noone wishes anything less than for Scottish fans having a Great Team and it will happen, but the greater the team becomes then be prepared for a bit of name calling.

Name Calling? If I were name calling I'd be calling him Mr Smelly Pants or something. I'm stating a fact, he cheated and got away with it. It's not meant to be a compliment or a criticism it's simply stating a fact.

McCaw and Read IMO are two of the greatest players of our generation, that has quite a bit to do with how far they are willing to stretch the rules (cheat) if the word cheat offends you. However they are called cheats because they are so. That diminishes nothing from their abilities, leadership or how I think about them as people and the lasting impact they will have on the sport we love.

In every interview and every time I have seen them interviewed they (McCaw and Read) come across as genuinely top blokes. I consider myself to be a top bloke too, but I still cheated occasionally when I played rugby.

I also had a long list of things I wanted to do today, comparing myself to McCaw and Read was not one of them... laughing

I'm not frustrated with that isolated incident, because I can think of at least 3 or 4 occasions where our own lack of accuracy let the All Blacks off the hook. Read's actions although cheating Wink were not the reason we lost.
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Re: Scotland vs New Zealand 18th November

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