England vs Samoa - 25th November

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England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 12:36 pm

Details

Date: Saturday 25th November
Time: 14:30 GMT
Location: Twickenham Stadium, Twickenham, Surrey
TV: Sky Sports
Radio: R5L


Officials

Referee: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 1: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 2: Wayne Davies (Wales)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Head to Head

7 Played 7
7 Won 0
0 Drawn 0
244 Total Points 100
35 Average Score 14



Recent Form

22nd Nov 2014 Twickenham Eng 28 - Samoa 9
20th Nov 2010 Twickenham Eng 26 - Samoa 13


Teams

ENGLAND

England team to play Samoa

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins 63 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 28 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs 9 caps), 12 Alex Lozowski (Saracens 3 caps), 11 Elliot Daly (Wasps 15 caps), 10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 39 caps) co-captain, 9 Danny Care (Harlequins 75 caps), 1 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers 4 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens 19 caps), 3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 76 caps), 4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 46 caps), 5 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby 5 caps), 6 Maro Itoje (Saracens 13 caps), 7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 58 caps) co-captain, 8 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 2 caps).

Finishers

16 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 88 caps), 17 Joe Marler (Harlequins 52 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs 4 caps), 19 Nick Isiekwe (Saracens 1 cap), 20 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 60 caps), 21 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers 72 caps), 22 Piers Francis (Northampton Saints 2 caps), 23 Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby 3 caps).




Samoa


15-Ah See Tuala, 14-Paul Perez, 13-Kieron Fonotia, 12-Alapati Leiua, 11-David Lemi, 10-Tim Nanai-Williams, 9-Dwayne Polataivao, 8-Jack Lam, 7-TJ Ioane, 6-Piula Fa'asalele, 5-Chris Vui (captain), 4-Josh Tyrell, 3-Donald Brighouse, 2-Motu Matu´u, 1-Jordan Lay.

Replacements: 16-Manu Leiataua, 17-James Lay, 18-Hisa Sasagi, 19-Fa'atiga Lemalu, 20-Ofisa Treviranus, 21-Melani Matavao, 22-Reynold Lee-Lo, 23-JJ Taulagi




Last edited by LondonTiger on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 10:08 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 12:52 pm

What sort of team do you wish to see on Saturday?

Do a Wales and make wholesale changes, make selected changes to bring "untested" players and see how they go, pick strongest team available?

Then how do you think EJ will behave?

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by propdavid_london on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 1:02 pm

Winning is still everything for Eddie. There may be a few tweaks. Loz may come back in, Rokko may get a start!
Perhaps a Curry on the bench.
Cant see many more changes.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 1:09 pm

I'd like to see a few selected changes. I don't think the wholesale changes that Wales (and indeed Ireland) made last week are overall a good thing. It's too difficult to get essentially a scratch team to gel in so short a space of time, and I don't think the players picked therefore get the opportunity to really show what they can do.

Would like to see George and Genge given starts, Lawes given a rest, and Roko given an opportunity (Daly another who could maybe do with a break IMO). Watson to get another chance at FB. So something like

Genge George Cole
Launchbury Itoje
Robshaw Underhill Hughes
Youngs Ford
Farrell Joseph
May Roko Watson

I'd also like to see Slade given a decent run off the bench, maybe bringing him on for Joseph to see if that option is viable. I suspect there'll be clamours for Care to start given his impact on Saturday, but I would resist that.

I suspect Jones will tinker minimally, if at all. In particular, without wishing to launch that particular debate again, I don't think he'll start George.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 1:11 pm

Tom Curry injured, Ben had a decent game yesterday but not in the squad so unlikely to be called up.

I do not like wholesale changes, but would like us to try some other things thus something like the following would keep me happy:

Front Row - Would like to see Mako get a week off, would like George to get a start.
Second Row - Lawes could do with a rest, not sold on Ewels.
Back Row - Might be worth starting Simmonds at 7?
Half-Backs - Probably keep as it is
Centres - Slade to start at 13
Back 3 - Would like Watson to start at FB again, still not convinced Daly is a winger, but not sure what EJ gains by calling up Roku though.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by SecretFly on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 1:15 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I'd like to see a few selected changes. I don't think the wholesale changes that Wales (and indeed Ireland) made last week are overall a good thing. It's too difficult to get essentially a scratch team to gel in so short a space of time, and I don't think the players picked therefore get the opportunity to really show what they can do.



OK Yep, good point. I like changes when they can be accommodated because let's face it, the younger hopefuls don't have a lot of opportunities in the year with the increases in competitiveness all round through the top 10 anyway. But this wholesale deal is a real gamble that almost sunk Ireland. You need some ballast and some genuine leadership in all contests to allow these younger hopefuls to actually have a genuine shot at impressing the head man.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by propdavid_london on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 1:18 pm

Yeah - think I agree with most of that Mad.
I have a feeling that Mako may get rested and EJ will start Marler with Genge on bench.
Cole, will probably still be starting as I am not sure EJ will want Harry Williams playing most of the game - Although Cole hasn't been great in games so far.
Hartley I am sure will still start with George covering.
Like the rest of the side. I guess we still don't know if Underhill will be available. As he didn't come back on against Australia, I assume he failed the HIA - protocol would automatically rule him out against Samoa (could be wrong though).
So, door opens for Curry on bench - or Sam Simmonds get a shot at starting.

I agree that Lawes could do with a rest. Kruis can always come back in if needed and Ewells hasn't had a run out yet - although I don't think either will be involved.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Scottrf on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 1:21 pm

I'd like to work towards a new TH, I really don't rate Cole's performances recently. I guess that means Williams (Sinckler when he's back although he seems to fit the finisher mould).

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by lostinwales on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 1:21 pm

I know Underhill didn't look too bad but I would expect him to miss out. Could be a very good game for Simmonds to get a start.

Otherwise it would be good to see new combos tested even if its with 'older' players. Definitely want to see more of Slade. It was very interesting seeing England go to a Farrell/Slade 10/12 combo and it might be good to see that from the start with Ford on the bench.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by propdavid_london on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 1:21 pm

It was 44-38 for the Scotland-Samoa game.
And that Scots side wasn't too experimental. Similar side that very nearly pulled a fast one on the Kiwi's.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by propdavid_london on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 1:23 pm

Scottrf wrote:I'd like to work towards a new TH, I really don't rate Cole's performances recently. I guess that means Williams (Sinckler when he's back although he seems to fit the finisher mould).
I'm still waiting to see Genge, George and Sinks coming off the bench at the same time - Impact and a half.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by lostinwales on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 1:24 pm

propdavid_london wrote:It was 44-38 for the Scotland-Samoa game.
And that Scots side wasn't too experimental.  Similar side that very nearly pulled a fast one on the Kiwi's.

And got beat by Romania at the weekend.

We know what we will get. Some hugely powerful players, some stunning individual talent and questionable cohesion and organisation.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 1:29 pm

@propdavid, I think Underhill has to go through the return to play protocols, but if he passes all the tests then he can play? If he doesn't then England could go with the Saturday option of Lawes in the backrow, pick Simmonds instead, or someone else? What are the other backrow options in the squad?

@Secretfly, I agree. It's also about the lack of familiarity. Ireland for instance decide they want a look at Carberry at FH. Fine. But they then put McCloskey and Farrell in the centres, so your midfield axis is three new guys, all playing at different provinces. Trying to get that to work is a big ask.

Re the Scotland game, it was a strange one. Scotland played more or less their best team, but had no intensity whatsoever in defence. For all that Samoa only lost by 6 points, it never really felt like they were going to win the game, as Scotland were scoring almost at will in attack.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Scottrf on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 1:30 pm

lostinwales wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:It was 44-38 for the Scotland-Samoa game.
And that Scots side wasn't too experimental.  Similar side that very nearly pulled a fast one on the Kiwi's.

And got beat by Romania at the weekend.

We know what we will get. Some hugely powerful players, some stunning individual talent and questionable cohesion and organisation.

But it's not a game vs a Pacific Island team without being warned not to take them lightly. Even though we have still never lost to one.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 1:44 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:@propdavid, I think Underhill has to go through the return to play protocols, but if he passes all the tests then he can play? If he doesn't then England could go with the Saturday option of Lawes in the backrow, pick Simmonds instead, or someone else? What are the other backrow options in the squad?

Do not think Tom Curry was replaced. Of course nothing to stop EJ calling up an additional body.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 1:52 pm

Underhill has to start if fit. I think jones is more to bring in Ewells and have Itoje cover back row rather than call up anyone else though.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Poorfour on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 2:33 pm

I'd like to see Underhill try to get through a game intact. That would actually be a big step forward for him.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Scottrf on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 2:39 pm

Poorfour wrote:I'd like to see Underhill try to get through a game intact. That would actually be a big step forward for him.

He played 80 minutes the week before...

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 2:42 pm

SUrely Cole has to have a rest. Williams (If he's second choice) needs to start.

I would start George aswell - meaning who ever the Vice Captain is, has his captaincy examined.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 2:48 pm

Ah. If and when it happens we'll have to have a thread dedicated to his world record run ending.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 2:49 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:SUrely Cole has to have a rest. Williams (If he's second choice) needs to start.

I would start George aswell - meaning who ever the Vice Captain is, has his captaincy examined.

Owen Farrell would be captain - creating a whole new explosion Very Happy

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 2:53 pm

Very true 7.5

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 3:06 pm

Id put a strong team out but test the front row....

1 Marler (Genge off the bench)
2 George
3 Williams
4 Kruis
5 Launchbury
6 Robshaw
7 Underhill (Though id be looking to bring either Curry across)
8 Hughes - (Simmonds off the bench)

9 Youngs - Hasn't set the world alight, so I want to see him really shine
10 Ford
11 Roko
12 Farrell (C)
13 Slade
14 May
15 Watson

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by beshocked on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 3:25 pm

Geordiefalcon no Itoje?

I'd actually like to see Itoje-Launchbury 2nd row partnership. I don't think it's one we've seen yet.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 3:28 pm

I was just thinking of resting him and Lawes.

Both of those lads are going to get some serious workloads over the next 18month...no point flogging them for a game like this.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 3:31 pm

Not one we've seen apart from on saturday.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by beshocked on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 3:36 pm

Itoje already had a 3 week break, also I doubt Saracens would rest Itoje with Exeter coming to Allianz Park.....

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 3:36 pm

However if Eddie is happy to play them, then id rest Lawes first and yes, id have a look at Itoje and Launchbury

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 3:38 pm

beshocked wrote:Itoje already had a 3 week break, also I doubt Saracens would rest Itoje with Exeter coming to Allianz Park.....

Yes and its a break we all said he deserved. Don't forget he's 22, plays an all action game and was away with the lions aswell. Lets no break the lad.

PLus...Saracens v Exeter is a much bigger game than England v Samoa.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Guest on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 3:40 pm

Scottrf wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:It was 44-38 for the Scotland-Samoa game.
And that Scots side wasn't too experimental.  Similar side that very nearly pulled a fast one on the Kiwi's.

And got beat by Romania at the weekend.

We know what we will get. Some hugely powerful players, some stunning individual talent and questionable cohesion and organisation.

But it's not a game vs a Pacific Island team without being warned not to take them lightly. Even though we have still never lost to one.

You should give it a go. Have a word with Eddie. It does wonders for the banter on these boards!

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 4:17 pm

Underhill out then.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 4:19 pm

Has he failed the Head checks?

Bring Curry in.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by propdavid_london on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 4:23 pm

An entirely experimental team would be an interesting spectacle at HQ.

Would it be so bad to see a team like this - It wont happen - but on a par with the Argentina tour squad.
Genge,
George,
H.Williams
Ewells
Kruis
Robshaw
Curry
Hughes
Care
Lozowski
Slade
Joseph
Solomona
Rocko
Watson

Bench -
Hartley, Marler, Cole, Launchbury, Simmonds, Youngs, Ford

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 4:33 pm

Has curry had more than 1 game back from injury? More likely the younger locks come in simmonds comes in mercer to the bench kind of thinking for me.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 4:47 pm

Ben Curry has played a few games this season, was ok against us yesterday. However he has yet to play for England. Tom is out for months.


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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 5:08 pm

I noticed when reading about Underhill's unavailability that 45 players have been capped this year by EJ:

DS Care 9
GT Ford 9
DM Hartley 9
NWJ Hughes 9
JO Launchbury 9
MN Brown 8
DR Cole 7
EF Daly 7
JE George 7
CL Lawes 7
BR Youngs 7
OA Farrell 6
OM Itoje 6
JBA Joseph 6
JWG Marler 6
JJ May 6
JAW Haskell 5
JT Nowell 5
HJH Slade 5
BJ Te'o 5
MWIWNA Vunipola 5
TA Wood 5
MJ Mullan 4
KNJS Sinckler 4
AKC Watson 4
HAH Williams 4
E Genge 3
AJP Lozowski 3
CDC Robshaw 3
SG Underhill 3
JA Clifford 2
WSLW Collier 2
CJ Ewels 2
PG Francis 2
SD Simmonds 2
D Solomona 2
VML Vunipola 2
ME Wilson 2
MXG Yarde 2
DW Armand 1
TM Curry 1
NA Isiekwe 1
GEJ Kruis 1
JAL Maunder 1
S Rokoduguni 1

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Poorfour on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 6:07 pm

That's a long list. One encouraging thing is that on reading it there aren't any names that really stick out as not belonging. It's a much more uniform quality than England Ayer lists of the past.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Cyril on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 10:00 pm

Some seriously good initials in that line up. Mako especially  Shocked Special mentions to JAW Haskell and HAH Williams.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by SecretFly on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 10:07 pm

Ewels just can't 'belong' on that list.  I don't got a clue who the hell he is.  Massage guy?

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Guest on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 10:25 pm

SecretFly wrote:Ewels just can't 'belong' on that list.  I don't got a clue who the hell he is.  Massage guy?

CJ Ewels. Crown J Ewels, I think Wink

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by SecretFly on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 10:27 pm

Griff wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Ewels just can't 'belong' on that list.  I don't got a clue who the hell he is.  Massage guy?

CJ Ewels. Crown J Ewels, I think Wink

So I was close. Turkish bath Massage guy.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Guest on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 10:27 pm

And GT Ford. C'mon! Someone's on the wind up here! They love a car name, the English.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Cyril on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 10:30 pm

Don't forget the Yarde MXG. Quick and powerful, but not quite rated as a top-end speedster.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 1:07 pm

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/features/quiz-time-england-samoa/?sf173848011=1


11/15

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 3:18 pm

LondonTiger wrote:http://www.englandrugby.com/news/features/quiz-time-england-samoa/?sf173848011=1


11/15
9/15 here. Grrr...

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 4:05 pm

10/15

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by SecretFly on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 4:11 pm

You all think it'll be roughly the same scoreline? I think I'll put money on that.

Samoa 10 - England 15.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 7:37 pm

Some shuffling going to be going on here. Robshaw or simmonds at 7 or 8 either way. Lawes at 6. Itoje Launchbury to continue at 4 and 5. Ewells bench I reckon. Brown back at full back.

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/jones-retains-players-for-samoa-match/?sf173898001=1#

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LionsV2 on Tue 21 Nov 2017, 8:27 pm

Looks like too many changes for my liking.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by lostinwales on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 12:17 am

Slade to 13 then.

Simmonds to 8. Very light weight for us and this against Samoa too but Eddie must see something in him. I know we are short on heavyweight 8's but still.

Could be interesting.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

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