England vs Samoa - 25th November

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England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 12:36 pm

First topic message reminder :

Details

Date: Saturday 25th November
Time: 14:30 GMT
Location: Twickenham Stadium, Twickenham, Surrey
TV: Sky Sports
Radio: R5L


Officials

Referee: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 1: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 2: Wayne Davies (Wales)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Head to Head

7 Played 7
7 Won 0
0 Drawn 0
244 Total Points 100
35 Average Score 14



Recent Form

22nd Nov 2014 Twickenham Eng 28 - Samoa 9
20th Nov 2010 Twickenham Eng 26 - Samoa 13


Teams

ENGLAND

England team to play Samoa

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins 63 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 28 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs 9 caps), 12 Alex Lozowski (Saracens 3 caps), 11 Elliot Daly (Wasps 15 caps), 10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 39 caps) co-captain, 9 Danny Care (Harlequins 75 caps), 1 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers 4 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens 19 caps), 3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 76 caps), 4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 46 caps), 5 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby 5 caps), 6 Maro Itoje (Saracens 13 caps), 7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 58 caps) co-captain, 8 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 2 caps).

Finishers

16 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 88 caps), 17 Joe Marler (Harlequins 52 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs 4 caps), 19 Nick Isiekwe (Saracens 1 cap), 20 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 60 caps), 21 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers 72 caps), 22 Piers Francis (Northampton Saints 2 caps), 23 Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby 3 caps).




Samoa


15-Ah See Tuala, 14-Paul Perez, 13-Kieron Fonotia, 12-Alapati Leiua, 11-David Lemi, 10-Tim Nanai-Williams, 9-Dwayne Polataivao, 8-Jack Lam, 7-TJ Ioane, 6-Piula Fa'asalele, 5-Chris Vui (captain), 4-Josh Tyrell, 3-Donald Brighouse, 2-Motu Matu´u, 1-Jordan Lay.

Replacements: 16-Manu Leiataua, 17-James Lay, 18-Hisa Sasagi, 19-Fa'atiga Lemalu, 20-Ofisa Treviranus, 21-Melani Matavao, 22-Reynold Lee-Lo, 23-JJ Taulagi




Last edited by LondonTiger on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 10:08 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 11:59 am

So forgive me. It wasn't about locks covering back row but players needing a rest?

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by BamBam on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 12:03 pm

beshocked wrote:Bambam

Farrell and Itoje have already had a rest.

Well it's a different scenario - Leicester aren't playing a top of the table clash.

Should beat Worcester with or without Genge. Oh and of course Genge is starting so Leicester don't have 2 waterboys.

You have a situation that Farrell and Mako have to be waterboys instead of playing in a top of table clash.

England have control over the players for the international period, and they could quite frankly ask Farrell to pull the pints and Itoje to check tickets on the gate.

If any club gets its players back during that period, its a bonus, not a right

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by cascough on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 12:10 pm

Beshocked, why should Lawes get a rest but Mako should not?

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by screamingaddabs on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 12:18 pm

beshocked wrote:The extra cash doesn't matter that much when you factor in the importance of a top table clash.

It's not just the cash - there is an agreement that the player is an England player during the window. The clubs sign up to it.


beshocked wrote:
Not even as if player X is playing for England, they are being wasted as a waterboy.

Irrelevant really. The agreement is that the player is England's for the weekend. They could have him doing star jumps all day while reciting the book of genesis in reverse if they wanted...

beshocked wrote:
Oh great... they can't get injured... still means they miss a huge game.

They miss a huge game that the club knew they would probably miss at the start of the season but now they can't get injured. On the base assumption that they were never going ot get the player that weekend, not playing is better than playing

beshocked wrote: And no, it is not a honour to hold tackle bags when it means you miss out on one of the biggest games of the season.

Never said it was, strawman.
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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by BamBam on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 12:20 pm

screamingaddabs wrote:

They could have him doing star jumps all day while reciting the book of genesis in reverse if they wanted...


I like this idea far better than pulling pints

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by screamingaddabs on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 12:21 pm

P.S. I get that it is frustrating for the club to not have their best players for a game when the player could in theory play - what I am saying though is that they knew the deal and signed up to it so they have little sympathy from me when complaining about it.
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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Scottrf on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 12:22 pm

Farrell might still play for Sarries.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by screamingaddabs on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 12:23 pm

BamBam wrote:
screamingaddabs wrote:

They could have him doing star jumps all day while reciting the book of genesis in reverse if they wanted...


I like this idea far better than pulling pints

Egypt in coffin a in placed and embalmed was he; old years ten hundred one being, died Joseph and...
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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 12:25 pm

Scottrf wrote:Farrell might still play for Sarries.

Hopefully Mako will not, but yes Farrell could feature which would not be unreasonable.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by SecretFly on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 12:31 pm

screamingaddabs wrote:

Egypt in coffin a in placed and embalmed was he; old years ten hundred one being, died Joseph and...

Headscratch There's a sentence there somewhere and I'll keep working on it.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Scottrf on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 12:35 pm

here from bones my up carry shall you and, you visit surely will God.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by lostinwales on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 12:54 pm

Scottrf wrote:here from bones my up carry shall you and, you visit surely will God.

Makes more sense than some of the arguments we have going on here

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by lostinwales on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 1:07 pm

Back to the team. Good selection. Only real concerns over size in the backs. It does help to highlight Jones's thinking for the RWC too.

I can see the Mercer conversation turning into Itoje mkII. I do hope he fills the potential he showed at U20 (as a potential FEC) but I suspect his time will come post RWC. It is exciting seeing how well Tom Curry has done in his chances to date but always worth remembering how ridiculously young the Curry twins are by normal rugby international standards

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by BamBam on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 1:15 pm

lostinwales wrote:Back to the team. Good selection. Only real concerns over size in the backs. It does help to highlight Jones's thinking for the RWC too.

I can see the Mercer conversation turning into Itoje mkII. I do hope he fills the potential he showed at U20 (as a potential FEC) but I suspect his time will come post RWC. It is exciting seeing how well Tom Curry has done in his chances to date but always worth remembering how ridiculously young the Curry twins are by normal rugby international standards

Just need a militant Bath fan to pick up the baton

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by TightHEAD on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 2:54 pm

How do people think Ferrell took the news that he wasn't adding to his caps this weekend?
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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by cascough on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 3:26 pm

pfft, I shouldn't worry what he thinks. Did you see his predicitons vs Lawro?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/41973340

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by kingelderfield on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 8:13 pm

Weather looks excellent for a fast handling game.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 8:26 pm

9 degrees will seem like deep winter for the Samoans

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 8:29 pm

I see the usual ones moaning on....

As to mako...he's been rubbish the last two games. He should go play rugby league...the scrums would suit him!

Marler is a FAR better LH prop and once Genge focuses on the Scrum aswell...he will be ahead aswell.

Simmonds is a key one. Does he have the physicality for this level where Harrison proved he didn't!

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by yappysnap on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 3:22 am

Agree with all that GF

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by kingelderfield on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 7:24 am

MV has looked tired and certainly less effective than before. The rest is needed. Marker is lucky to be back regardless of his scrum prowess. Anymore suspension's and he have placed himself outside. He is not the captain and is not indispensable. It will be good to see how the scrum goes with Genge to the fore?

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 7:30 am

Can't agree on Mako. The scrum as a whole hasn't been great, I don't think Mako is just to blame.

Outside of the struggling set piece, Mako has been largely very good. Big work rate, loads of tackles and some sublime handling.

We seem to have a habit in England at knocking players when they have a skill set outside of the norm for their position. Mako would be lauded in NZ.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 8:14 am

Vunipola has improved immensely in the scrum but against Australia was a major weakness. He'll have those games occasionally but yes he's a very good player.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 9:00 am

I don't think he was 71/2.

I thought the scrum was reffed terribly tbh. Sio spent half the game dragging his side down but wasn't pinged once. We didn't see much of Mako as the camera was on Cole's side in the first half.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 9:04 am

Sio was as bad and not being pinged don't get me wrong. Mako was driving in and driving too early.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 9:19 am

Mako got pinged a few of times for pre-engaging then pushing to early. Not sure though that it is fair to completely blame the LH for that. Usually such things will be the whole front row.

I do wonder though just how well Cole and Mako fit. It seems to me that Mako likes to try and dominate from the start of the engagement while Cole likes to make the opposition uncomfortable, absorb pressure, then push through them. Mako would probably work much better with Sinkler and George, while Cole goes better with Marler/Genge and Hartley.

I may be talking Love sacks though.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 9:23 am

You may be spot on. Normally vunipola can just about hold his own. I just felt he seemed to keen. Maybe the pressure from genge has him looking over his shoulder.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Poorfour on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 9:27 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Can't agree on Mako. The scrum as a whole hasn't been great, I don't think Mako is just to blame.

Outside of the struggling set piece, Mako has been largely very good. Big work rate, loads of tackles and some sublime handling.

We seem to have a habit in England at knocking players when they have a skill set outside of the norm for their position. Mako would be lauded in NZ.

We have a habit of knocking players when they can't do what we think is their primary job properly. Sometimes this is debatable (we over-rate big hits and carries in the back 5), but in the case of props the setpiece is pretty clearly the first priority. Mako is among the best front rows in the world at carrying and handling, but at international he's been exposed in the scrum fairly regularly.

Marler's not "lucky to be back". Of the international looseheads we've got, he's comfortably the best in the scrum and I would argue the best defensively. Genge might overtake him given time - but Genge is still very raw. His disciplinary record is also a lot better than people think it is - he pushes the boundaries and has had a number of warnings but his only recent bans have been the one just ended and the one for verbals with Samson Lee.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by TightHEAD on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 9:29 am

Great to see that us English fans are really behind our team and are willing to talk about this game, some fans didn't even want to talk about playing the World Champions this weekend. Sad situation to be in.
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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 9:37 am

While you'd rather moan about wales.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by beshocked on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 9:44 am

Launchbury doesn't get criticised for not doing the basics in the 2nd row.... not sure how it's different to Mako to be honest.

Both players have won MOTMs, not for set piece work but for stuff outside that.

Should look at every player's strengths and weaknesses.

Poorfour a scrum isn't just about your LH, actually really the TH is meant to be more a specialist scrummager.

It always seems to be Mako who is highlighted. Others seem to get a free pass.... surprise surprise.


As for Marler, he got himself banned for his stupid antics and no he's not better than Mako defensively.

Londontiger I think you are right which is why I've thought the balance of the front five was wrong.


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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 9:49 am

What did you reckon of vunipola in the scrum then beshocked on saturday? And was it Lawes fitness you were worried about rather than being a lock?


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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by geoff999rugby on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 9:49 am

LondonTiger wrote:Mako got pinged a few of times for pre-engaging then pushing to early. Not sure though that it is fair to completely blame the LH for that. Usually such things will be the whole front row.

I do wonder though just how well Cole and Mako fit. It seems to me that Mako likes to try and dominate from the start of the engagement while Cole likes to make the opposition uncomfortable, absorb pressure, then push through them. Mako would probably work much better with Sinkler and George, while Cole goes better with Marler/Genge and Hartley.

I may be talking Love sacks though.

You may well be but I think you make a valid point

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by BamBam on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 9:56 am

I like Mako, think he's a great asset to England when he's playing well

I don't think its unfair to highlight that he may struggle in the scrum at times, and that our scrum as a whole looks slightly weaker than when Marler is the starting loosehead. Similar to the George/Hartley debate, Mako has tended to go fine in the scrums in the last 30 mins of games, because the opposition replacement props are usually not as strong in the scrum

Its when he goes up against the really strong scrummagers that he tends to look like he's struggling

Its up to Eddie whether he thinks Mako's play round the park is strong enough to overcome this potential weakness - in the 6N against the likes of Furlong/Slimani its only going to be more obvious

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 10:14 am

And tbf vunipola had a bad time of it on saturday. If you're getting singled out as he was I do think it's a talking point.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LionsV2 on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 10:19 am

I'd be picking Marler every time, stronger scrummager and is better defensively too.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 10:25 am

I think the big thing in the next year is how genge and sinckler look against the best scrummagers. Them 2 have looked ok to good for me in the scrums and obviously offer bullish carrying. They're both green for props but hopefully they step up as if they do we have a serious front row there. And they obviously both have proper anger issues for the front row.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Scottrf on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 10:34 am

How can one prop be responsible for engaging early? He wasn't running ahead of the scrum.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by cascough on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 10:48 am

LionsV2 wrote:I'd be picking Marler every time, stronger scrummager and is better defensively too.

I agree on the scrummaging, but not on the defence. Why do you say that?

Mako's workrate and tackle count is extraordinary for a prop. He's a big plus in defence for me.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:04 am

It was solved when he went off.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:18 am

cascough wrote:
LionsV2 wrote:I'd be picking Marler every time, stronger scrummager and is better defensively too.

I agree on the scrummaging, but not on the defence. Why do you say that?

Mako's workrate and tackle count is extraordinary for a prop. He's a big plus in defence for me.

I think defensively both players are similarly effective. Mako tends to stand closer to the breakdown and makes a high number of tackles there, while Marler may at times defend further out. Both tend to put in some big defensive shifts - Mako 19/3 in 67 minutes against Argentina, Marler 16-0 in 60 minutes at MS cases in point.

Depending on your view point it i seasy to argue for either guy. Defence is an area where Genge needs to improve. He perhaps concentrates on on the big hits too much - though it should be noted that in a lacklustre Tigers defensive line last weekend he was the one player who was bouncing to his feet and rushing back into position.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by TrailApe on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:23 am

Flamin' hell lads - I know this is all about debate but I'm just bloody glad we have the current front row(s) and some good young' uns coming through. The bench is just as good as the starters, it's just how Steady Eddie decides to unleash who at what.

It's like having three Rottweiler's and three Mastiffs.

here's a thought to leave you with -

Tim Payne anyone?
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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LionsV2 on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:26 am

cascough wrote:
LionsV2 wrote:I'd be picking Marler every time, stronger scrummager and is better defensively too.

I agree on the scrummaging, but not on the defence. Why do you say that?

Mako's workrate and tackle count is extraordinary for a prop. He's a big plus in defence for me.

Mako tends to have the higher tackle count but I feel that Marler is the more dominant tackler and forces the opposition on the back foot, it's the difference between say Jonny Gray and Courtney Lawes.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by cascough on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:27 am

LondonTiger wrote:
cascough wrote:
LionsV2 wrote:I'd be picking Marler every time, stronger scrummager and is better defensively too.

I agree on the scrummaging, but not on the defence. Why do you say that?

Mako's workrate and tackle count is extraordinary for a prop. He's a big plus in defence for me.

I think defensively both players are similarly effective. Mako tends to stand closer to the breakdown and makes a high number of tackles there, while Marler may at times defend further out. Both tend to put in some big defensive shifts - Mako 19/3 in 67 minutes against Argentina, Marler 16-0 in 60 minutes at MS cases in point.

Depending on your view point it i seasy to argue for either guy. Defence is an area where Genge needs to improve. He perhaps concentrates on on the big hits too much - though it should be noted that in a lacklustre Tigers defensive line last weekend he was the one player who was bouncing to his feet and rushing back into position.

I don't have the stats on where tackles are made, but I do know that on more than one occasion BT sport have featured Mako's workrate and where he makes his tackles. They've made a point about how he cover's great distances between tackles, which would rather go against what you're suggesting about Marler defending further out. That could have been an anomaly though. Similarly though, different situations would skew tackles made, so it's not black and white there either. Example, Hartley made about 6 tackles in 50 against Argentina, George 12? But that had a lot to do with the complexion of the game at that point, England as a whole were making more tackles. Ah well, two quality props. Happy days.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by TightHEAD on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:28 am

Mako over Marler everytime for me.
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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 12:44 pm

Does this game actually offer much of a chance for players to push their cases, or will it be used mainly to justify EJ's opinion on certain players.

I think back to the Fiji game last year. Now Goode did not help himself by dropping the first kick that came his way, but that game in teh end was the final nail in his international career.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by BamBam on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 12:47 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Does this game actually offer much of a chance for players to push their cases, or will it be used mainly to justify EJ's opinion on certain players.

I think back to the Fiji game last year. Now Goode did not help himself by dropping the first kick that came his way, but that game in teh end was the final nail in his international career.

Thank fook for that

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 12:58 pm

I think you can push forward your claims but a good performance will be tempered by the fact it is samoa. Going well in the scrum is expected so being on top not that much of a deal. Showing up well in the loose especially early doors will be noted.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by beshocked on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 1:35 pm

With a new look front five, the front five might not be as fluent as we want but there's plenty of energy there.

I think it will be important to not force things too much.

I think England have been lacking a real fluency in the initial 60 minutes since the Scotland game so I'd like to see England doing that even if it's unlikely.

Players will enhance their chances if they can show things they can do that others cannot.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 24 Nov 2017, 3:19 pm

Go on then beshocked add some meat to the bones. What can we expect, what will.push people ahead?

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Join date : 2012-10-20

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

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