England vs Samoa - 25th November

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England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 20 Nov 2017, 12:36 pm

First topic message reminder :

Details

Date: Saturday 25th November
Time: 14:30 GMT
Location: Twickenham Stadium, Twickenham, Surrey
TV: Sky Sports
Radio: R5L


Officials

Referee: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 1: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 2: Wayne Davies (Wales)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Head to Head

7 Played 7
7 Won 0
0 Drawn 0
244 Total Points 100
35 Average Score 14



Recent Form

22nd Nov 2014 Twickenham Eng 28 - Samoa 9
20th Nov 2010 Twickenham Eng 26 - Samoa 13


Teams

ENGLAND

England team to play Samoa

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins 63 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 28 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs 9 caps), 12 Alex Lozowski (Saracens 3 caps), 11 Elliot Daly (Wasps 15 caps), 10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 39 caps) co-captain, 9 Danny Care (Harlequins 75 caps), 1 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers 4 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens 19 caps), 3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 76 caps), 4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 46 caps), 5 Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby 5 caps), 6 Maro Itoje (Saracens 13 caps), 7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 58 caps) co-captain, 8 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 2 caps).

Finishers

16 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 88 caps), 17 Joe Marler (Harlequins 52 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs 4 caps), 19 Nick Isiekwe (Saracens 1 cap), 20 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 60 caps), 21 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers 72 caps), 22 Piers Francis (Northampton Saints 2 caps), 23 Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby 3 caps).




Samoa


15-Ah See Tuala, 14-Paul Perez, 13-Kieron Fonotia, 12-Alapati Leiua, 11-David Lemi, 10-Tim Nanai-Williams, 9-Dwayne Polataivao, 8-Jack Lam, 7-TJ Ioane, 6-Piula Fa'asalele, 5-Chris Vui (captain), 4-Josh Tyrell, 3-Donald Brighouse, 2-Motu Matu´u, 1-Jordan Lay.

Replacements: 16-Manu Leiataua, 17-James Lay, 18-Hisa Sasagi, 19-Fa'atiga Lemalu, 20-Ofisa Treviranus, 21-Melani Matavao, 22-Reynold Lee-Lo, 23-JJ Taulagi




Last edited by LondonTiger on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 10:08 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by yappysnap on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 1:55 am

He's only there as we're missing at least 3 others before him

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 7:37 am

LionsV2 wrote:Looks like too many changes for my liking.

Could be just 4 changes. 2 in the back row caused by injury, and then the return of Brown for a tired looking Watson and Slade getting a go at 13 where Joseph has been looking lacklustre.

Of course EJ may make more.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by dummy_half on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 9:18 am

Surprised to see Watson released. Suggests that EJ still sees Brown as his first choice fullback in the short to medium term.

Presumably Slade will get a chance at 13 in JJ's absence. Plenty of options at 10-12

Only 2 genuine back row players in the squad, so presumably Lawes and Itoje being used to cover 6. Ewels and Isiekwe definitely in the 23.

We've retained 3 loosehead props - possbliy keeping Mako in camp so he gets an easy week?

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 9:35 am

Personally now.hoping it's Robshaw at 8 as I don't think simmonds stands much of a chance getting past vunipola Hughes and cliffoRd whereas 6 and 7 are more open to opportunity.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by BamBam on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 9:37 am

A lot of people have been calling for Watson to get a rest, so this seems sensible

Would have liked to see Lawes get the same but the back row injuries haven't helped

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 10:04 am

How Lawes isn't rested for this one I have no idea. I don't get why they are thrashing him. At least Itoje has had a good break, id play him over Lawes. Though personally I think Isiekwe and Launchbury could handle the Samoans..(lineout calling the only issue)

And im just not convinced on Ewells.

Outside of that...Brown gets a run out. Watson rested...or will he play for Bath thus not rested. He may aswell be playing v Samoa.

Slade to start at 13.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 10:44 am

Ewells was a bit nondescript for me up until the summer where he looked pretty good. Carrying was so much better. Will be good to see if he can replicate that again.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by propdavid_london on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 10:59 am

There will be a chance for a number of players to impress against Samoa, similarly a particularly bad game could seriously dent their chances for 2019 consideration.

Robshaw at 8 could be an interesting call - I know he covered there in the England-Wales training session. It would be a risk in my opinion - asking Robshaw to do more of the carrying will negate what he is best at. But in the absence of others he may well end up there - temporarily. Its also not unheard of for EJ to chuck youngsters in at the deep end either. Simonds may well be starting 8 - and I wouldn't be too upset by that.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 11:24 am

Nah, Robshaw will be at 6 doing what he does. Eddie wont change that.

He'd rather play his lock (Lawes or Itoje) at 7.

Simmonds will play at 8.
Many of us have said for all his explosiveness he looks lightweight for an international 8. Well theres no better team to test someones physicality against than Samoa! If he can come out shining v them, then that would be a big step in easing peoples fears.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by beshocked on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 11:33 am

2 players are going to be wasting their time being England waterboys.

It would be fine I guess if it was during the Anglo-Welsh cup but not during a pivotal AP round...

Very strange having only 2 backrowers in the 25 man squad....

Surely this guarantees Isiekwe and Ewels will both be retained?

1 back and 1 LH to be sacrificed?

Likely Genge,Mako or Marler, Lozowski or Francis I guess...

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 11:38 am

It's not wasted time. Most coaches like to see people train how they bed in what sort of guys they are. It helps the players know what to expect the jntensity training routines and tactics.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Scottrf on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 11:43 am

But Saints need Francis...Horne and Burrell likely both out.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 11:46 am

One LH prop will be left out - possibly Mako as keeping him in the squad would ensure he gets a rest.

With 3 10/12s it will likely be one of them left out. Using above logic and for same reasons it may be Farrell.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 11:48 am

Possible lineup (though I am anticipating a curve ball from EJ):

Marler
Hartley
Cole
Launchbury
Itoje
Lawes
Robshaw
Simmonds
Youngs
Ford
May
Lozowski
Slade
Daly
Brown

Reps: George, Genge, Williams, Isiekwe, Ewels, Care, Francis, Roku
Waterboys: Mako, Farrell

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 11:49 am

And in those cases scott I'm a big fan of club and country working together. Mallinder will know it's a chance for francis to.impress as well and will want to keep a happy squad as much as he can.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Scottrf on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 11:50 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:And in those cases scott I'm a big fan of club and country working together. Mallinder will know it's  a chance for francis to.impress as well and will want to keep a happy squad as much as he can.

Oh if he plays no problem with it. Frustrating if not.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by SecretFly on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 12:19 pm

They can't all play, Scott! Wink But Jones does need a camp of quality to be able to train at high levels mimicking any opposition on his plate.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by beshocked on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 12:41 pm

Exactly scottrf. It will be frustating if a player who could play for your club, could potentially be a waterboy for England.

Londontiger will you be as happy if Genge is the waterboy?

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 12:54 pm

You make it sound as if you think I am happy that some Saracens are!!!

I am ambivalent about whoever is waterboy, Mako or Genge. I would like Genge to get some game time, but if not thats life.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by cascough on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 1:14 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Nah, Robshaw will be at 6 doing what he does. Eddie wont change that.

He'd rather play his lock (Lawes or Itoje) at 7.

Simmonds will play at 8.
Many of us have said for all his explosiveness he looks lightweight for an international 8. Well theres no better team to test someones physicality against than Samoa! If he can come out shining v them, then that would be a big step in easing peoples fears.

Jones has cracked this week about Robbo dusting off his 6.5 shirt. He's also remarked the Robshaw can cover 8 and that he thinks Simmonds is an option for 7. He was touting Itoje for 7 last autumn, before he broke his hand, too.

You could see

6 CR
7 MI
8 SS

6 MI/CL
7 SS
8 CR

6 MI/CL
7 CR
8 SS

With the amount of Locks in the squad, we could even see

6 CL
7 MI
8 CR

Assuming he doesn't go for the last option, I don't think it will really change what any of the players do, just the number on their backs.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by cascough on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 1:17 pm

LondonTiger wrote:One LH prop will be left out - possibly Mako as keeping him in the squad would ensure he gets a rest.

With 3 10/12s it will likely be one of them left out. Using above logic and for same reasons it may be Farrell.

I suspect it will be Francis. If it's not Francis my next bet would be Ford and run Farrell at 10 with Loz or Francis at 12. I think Jones wants to examine Farrell as a captain.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 1:37 pm

cascough wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:One LH prop will be left out - possibly Mako as keeping him in the squad would ensure he gets a rest.

With 3 10/12s it will likely be one of them left out. Using above logic and for same reasons it may be Farrell.

I suspect it will be Francis. If it's not Francis my next bet would be Ford and run Farrell at 10 with Loz or Francis at 12. I think Jones wants to examine Farrell as a captain.

A lot will depend upon just how many changes EJ wants to make I guess. Telegraph, Times and Guardian all suggesting it will be a Ford, Loz, Slade midfield with teh Guardian saying:

Lozowski may replace his Saracens team-mate Owen Farrell – a peripheral figure in training – in the No12 jersey with George Ford potentially continuing at fly-half and Henry Slade slotting in at outside-centre in place of Joseph. If that is the case, it would be the same 10-12-13 combination fielded by Jones in the first Test against Argentina over the summer.

“For a first go over in Argentina, it wasn’t too bad for a first outing together. George and Henry are both very creative and unbelievably talented players so it was a joy to play with them,” said Lozowski. “Hopefully we can do the same this weekend. We will try and gel nicely and then take confidence from the way we have trained and hopefully create some opportunities at the weekend.”

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by cascough on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 1:47 pm

Injury perhaps? I'd be very surprised if he didn't take the field. But it is Eddie!

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by nlpnlp on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 2:13 pm

It seems strange that England who are normally seen as a team based around a big strong physical pack (a tribe of white orcs on steroids as New Zealand described them), will potentially be going into a test with a pint sized no 8 in Simmonds at 6' and 16st and a relatively underpowered second rower in Charlie Ewels.  Jack Clifford who is considerably larger than Simmonds has been consigned to the 7 role due to his diminutive stature, despite being nearly 4 inches and a stone and a half heavier.  Jones has also shown some desire to put Itoje or Lawes into the backrow, so size obviously matters to him.

There seem to be quite few queries around Ewels and what he offers to the team.  He was a no 8 at schoolboy level, so adds mobility in the second row if not grunt.  I think that is also a criticism of Lawes that he isn't a good ball carrier in the tight and perhaps that is why Jones seems to favour the 6 role for him.

As ever Jones seems to be a man of contradictions and keeps us all guessing.  I just hope it is all part of some great master plan he has, rather than him simply trying to be cleverer than the media and 'experts'.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by TightHEAD on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 2:35 pm

Great to see that the English players have voted against giving some of their match fee to the Samoans, I'm sure they'll buy them a drink or two afterwards.
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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 2:36 pm

Why great?

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by TightHEAD on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 2:40 pm

Its not their problem.
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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 2:56 pm

Wow.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by cascough on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 3:09 pm

If you make a list of all the people involved in Saturday's event, right from the top down, and then put them in the order of people who are responsible for making sure Samoa's players are paid accordingly, the England Players are pretty far down that list IMO.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Scottrf on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 3:14 pm

If you make a list of all the people responsible for Africans being fed, the general UK public are pretty far down the list and people still give to charity. Would have been a nice gesture.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 3:18 pm

cascough wrote:If you make a list of all the people involved in Saturday's event, right from the top down, and then put them in the order of people who are responsible for making sure Samoa's players are paid accordingly, the England Players are pretty far down that list IMO.

I agree.

However being happy about the fact as Tighthead was, and stating that it is nothing to do with them, is what astounds me. I am glad that the players considered it seriously. I probably agree with them, that it is not appropriate for them to subsidise the Samoan players - as it would just enable the SRU to renege on their duties. I would have liked them to do something though, admittedly not sure what, to show this is not about being tight with their cash.

All of this does not stop me being a little disheartened at HERSH's "We're all right Jack" attitude. Mind he has rarely demonstrated much in the way of empathy or humanity.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by TightHEAD on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 3:30 pm

I'm sure they'll buy them a packet of Peanuts with their Pint, and sign some kit for them to flog on eBay too.
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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by TightHEAD on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 3:32 pm

Scottrf wrote:If you make a list of all the people responsible for Africans being fed, the general UK public are pretty far down the list and people still give to charity. Would have been a nice gesture.

Samoan Rugby is not a Charity.

They have been given plenty of money over the years from the IRB/world rugby. Have you seen the Samoan Union officials new homes and cars?
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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Scottrf on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 3:42 pm

TightHEAD wrote:
Scottrf wrote:If you make a list of all the people responsible for Africans being fed, the general UK public are pretty far down the list and people still give to charity. Would have been a nice gesture.

Samoan Rugby is not a Charity.

They have been given plenty of money over the years from the IRB/world rugby. Have you seen the Samoan Union officials new homes and cars?

No. I don't get to Samoa very often these days.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 3:44 pm

nlpnlp wrote:It seems strange that England who are normally seen as a team based around a big strong physical pack (a tribe of white orcs on steroids as New Zealand described them), will potentially be going into a test with a pint sized no 8 in Simmonds at 6' and 16st and a relatively underpowered second rower in Charlie Ewels.  Jack Clifford who is considerably larger than Simmonds has been consigned to the 7 role due to his diminutive stature, despite being nearly 4 inches and a stone and a half heavier.  Jones has also shown some desire to put Itoje or Lawes into the backrow, so size obviously matters to him.

There seem to be quite few queries around Ewels and what he offers to the team.  He was a no 8 at schoolboy level, so adds mobility in the second row if not grunt.  I think that is also a criticism of Lawes that he isn't a good ball carrier in the tight and perhaps that is why Jones seems to favour the 6 role for him.

As ever Jones seems to be a man of contradictions and keeps us all guessing.  I just hope it is all part of some great master plan he has, rather than him simply trying to be cleverer than the media and 'experts'.

Yes but white orcs on steroids are slow and unskilled compared to those tricksy little hobbittses....


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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by beshocked on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 3:56 pm

Londontiger I just don't think it's fair whoever will have to in the end play the role of waterboy.

Would you be like that if you were playing exeter this weekend?

You should beat Worcester at home with or without Genge.

Seems like Jones is trying to make specialism a thing of the past by trying to convert locks into backrowers and 10s into other positions.

Even Daly has been converted from an outside centre to winger....


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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by TightHEAD on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 4:00 pm

Scottrf wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
Scottrf wrote:If you make a list of all the people responsible for Africans being fed, the general UK public are pretty far down the list and people still give to charity. Would have been a nice gesture.

Samoan Rugby is not a Charity.

They have been given plenty of money over the years from the IRB/world rugby. Have you seen the Samoan Union officials new homes and cars?

No. I don't get to Samoa very often these days.


You should its beautiful this time of year.
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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 4:05 pm

beshocked wrote:Londontiger I just don't think it's fair whoever will have to in the end play the role of waterboy.


But if Jones believes Mako needs a break but believes that Sarries would play him if he was released (and I think he has played every Sarries match he was available for) what else is he to do?

My feeling is that once in the squad, clubs should assume players will not be available on International Weekends, and be grateful when they are. After all, they are now paid a sizeable amount for players called up by England. It was a bonus that Genge was available this weekend, especially with our paucity of fit props, but having him involved for England is good for Leicester in teh long run.

Farrell however was rested against Argentina - so the logic for resting him does not fully stack up. His absence along with Loz also gives Sarries a much bigger problem than Mako missing.




Of course EJ could throw a curve ball and select both.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 4:11 pm

Yeah not sure why it's great but there you go.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 4:13 pm

Er it's just tough if you have players selected for national sides in the end. Yes there should be good relationships between coaches but the priority during international weekends is to the international sides. As it is the current agreements payments etc are pretty good for both sides of that coin.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Scottrf on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 4:16 pm

Just do what Saints do. Turn our players to sheet so they don't get selected.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 4:46 pm

Some of them are superhuman remember.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by beshocked on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 5:10 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
beshocked wrote:Londontiger I just don't think it's fair whoever will have to in the end play the role of waterboy.


But if Jones believes Mako needs a break but believes that Sarries would play him if he was released (and I think he has played every Sarries match he was available for) what else is he to do?

My feeling is that once in the squad, clubs should assume players will not be available on International Weekends, and be grateful when they are. After all, they are now paid a sizeable amount for players called up by England. It was a bonus that Genge was available this weekend, especially with our paucity of fit props, but having him involved for England is good for Leicester in teh long run.

Farrell however was rested against Argentina - so the logic for resting him does not fully stack up. His absence along with Loz also gives Sarries a much bigger problem than Mako missing.




Of course EJ could throw a curve ball and select both.

Londontiger

It's Saracens vs Exeter, this weekend of course, Saracens would want Mako back if he's not playing.

Sarries rested Itoje vs LI and England rested Itoje vs Argentina - that's an example of club and country working together.

Not country going - okay we'll screw the club over.


Nothing grateful about not having a key player for a top of the table clash. Especially if the country is going to waste them by making them a waterboy.

We don't know if Farrell is being waterboy again yet. Also didn't matter that Farrell was rested vs Argentina because it was anglo welsh. He wouldn't have played in the anglo welsh anyway.

To be honest I think it's not right that Exeter will be missing players either but I think Saracens will be missing the absentees more.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by kingelderfield on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 8:56 pm

And while we're all navel gazing and rightly selfishly distracted, (Hughes is a big big loss for Wasps with the Champions cup just round the corner) wouldn't it be something if Somoa are able to put in a performance this Saturday? You never know they might even win.


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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 8:57 pm

Campaign to stop club games during international weekends then. Or stop being so club focused. It'll help your balance when considering england also.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 8:58 pm

I doubt samoa will get within 15 of England king.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by lostinwales on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 10:19 pm

I half wonder if MI wouldn't look out of place with an 8 on his back

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Gwlad on Wed 22 Nov 2017, 11:53 pm

22k per man and they cant buy the Samoans a pint...shame on you rich England boys. thumbsdown

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 4:31 am

Do the Samoan guys even drink? There's a lot of presumptions here....

I can't see how this retaining debate is even a discussion. It's an International window, clubs should expect their International players to not be available and plan accordingly.

Falcons are an excellent blueprint for this. We bring together a bunch of average players and put in some dire performances just before the Int window, boom....minimal call ups.

I see there's a big rumour going around that George is set to start, I'm not sure he's ready personally.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 23 Nov 2017, 6:55 am

Terrible shame if he can't extend his world record.

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Re: England vs Samoa - 25th November

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