Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

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Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 7:57 am

First topic message reminder :

2017 Autumn Test Results

Scotland 44 - Samoa 38 Smile

Tries - Hogg, Jones, McInally (2), Dunbar, Horne

Scotland 17 - New Zealand 22 Crying or Very sad

Tries - J Gray, Jones

Scotland 53 - Australia 24 Yahoo

McGuigan (2), Price, Maitland, J Gray, Jones, Barclay, McInally


6N fixtures

Wales V Scotland
Scotland V France

Scotland V England

Ireland V Scotland
Italy V Scotland




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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by NeilyBroon on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 9:40 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:So as we head into the New year with the 6N looming Scotland's front row crisis is certainly my main concern, and IMO could be the difference between us having a good 6N (3 wins) and us having a disappointing one (only beating Italy) such is the importance of the front row.

A big part of the concern is just not knowing when everyone will be back, not helped by Cockerill’s change of policy at Edinburgh to not make player’s injuries public. We could end up being OK if some players come back in the next few weeks, or we could get no one back and end up with more injuries! A rough guess at the injury situation is:

Dickinson – unlikely to feature in the 6N (if at all)
Dell – unknown, but unlikely to be fit for the first round of games
Reid – unknown
Marfo – provisional chat was he was going to miss the 1872 and should be back soon. Hopefully it isn’t more than that
Sutherland – apparently due to return this week or the week after, which is a positive. He is only just back from long term injury so really needs a good run of games now.

Ford – unknown
Brown – repeated concussion, may have to take a break

Nel – likely to miss at least the first 2 rounds, may feature at some point
Berghan – Banned for the first game

So based on the above and assuming no more injuries we should be able to put out a competitive starting front row against Wales of Marfo, McInally, Fagerson with Bhattie, Turner and Welsh benching, which isn’t an overly strong bench. Problem is if we lose one of those tightheads or McInally then we’re really screwed – D’arcy Rae and Neil Cochrane??

Hopefully Marfo and Sutherland make a return to action in the next few weeks and Fagerson and Welsh keep away from danger!

We've always got the mighty Low to hold the fort...

...Oh God I may as well have put my tenner in the shredder. I need to stay away from bookies around the 6N, it's too tempting to bet with the odds they give Scotland!
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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by BigGee on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 11:24 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:So as we head into the New year with the 6N looming Scotland's front row crisis is certainly my main concern, and IMO could be the difference between us having a good 6N (3 wins) and us having a disappointing one (only beating Italy) such is the importance of the front row.

A big part of the concern is just not knowing when everyone will be back, not helped by Cockerill’s change of policy at Edinburgh to not make player’s injuries public. We could end up being OK if some players come back in the next few weeks, or we could get no one back and end up with more injuries! A rough guess at the injury situation is:

Dickinson – unlikely to feature in the 6N (if at all)
Dell – unknown, but unlikely to be fit for the first round of games
Reid – unknown
Marfo – provisional chat was he was going to miss the 1872 and should be back soon. Hopefully it isn’t more than that
Sutherland – apparently due to return this week or the week after, which is a positive. He is only just back from long term injury so really needs a good run of games now.

Ford – unknown
Brown – repeated concussion, may have to take a break

Nel – likely to miss at least the first 2 rounds, may feature at some point
Berghan – Banned for the first game

So based on the above and assuming no more injuries we should be able to put out a competitive starting front row against Wales of Marfo, McInally, Fagerson with Bhattie, Turner and Welsh benching, which isn’t an overly strong bench. Problem is if we lose one of those tightheads or McInally then we’re really screwed – D’arcy Rae and Neil Cochrane??

Hopefully Marfo and Sutherland make a return to action in the next few weeks and Fagerson and Welsh keep away from danger!

Gordon Reid is fit and played for LI at the weekend.

As long as we don't lose any more we should be just about ok. Myself and a lot of others would prefer Jon Welsh over Berghan in any case.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 6:01 pm

Damn English stealing all our players - time they got their own! Whistle

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42540676

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by bsando on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 7:31 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Damn English stealing all our players - time they got their own!  Whistle

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42540676

Sign of the times, Scotland are a team to with some serious strength in depth haha

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by BigGee on Tue 02 Jan 2018, 10:15 pm

Who do we think will get the third SH slot in the 6N squad.

I am assuming that Price and Laidlaw will be the first two names if fit but their back up throws up a few options and conundrums.

This may be the only chance to nab Vellacott. If EJ does not come for him this time around he may well do for the summer tour. As he has saud himself, he already knows his first and second strings. He is trying to tie in his third and fourth choices.

Vellacott is good and some prospect but should he leap frog into the squad on the basis of use him or potentially lose him. Is he more deserving than George Horne as well, neither have really got the experience to be international SHs yet, but with Horne we could afford to wait another year.

No player is likely to refuse an England call up, especially when based in England as it could endanger their club prospecs which is their bread and butter at the end of the day, but they need to be aware that they are swimming in a much bigger pool and there is a danger that they will get capped and then parked and their international career quickly runs out of steam.

I wonder what the point of this article is other than giving Toonie a big hint to crack on and pick him. EJ could easily have pulled him into the current training squad as he did with Gary Graham, another player you would wonder if he really has any intention of playing!

It will be an interesting squad announcementioned in a few weeks time.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by George Carlin on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 4:58 am

The third scrum half has to be George Horne.

Plays and trains with Russell and can do things that no other scrummie can do. After an intense year at the 7s and being managed by Rennie, I would think that he's ready too.
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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by EWT Spoons on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 9:02 am

I guess the thing with Vellacott, is that he was born and raised in England. His mum is Scottish and he played age grade for us, but he might not actually class himself as Scottish and only wants to play at full International level for England.

He said in the past he wouldn’t be sure about accepting a call up from Scotland at this stage as it might hinder his club career at a time when he’s breaking through, which does suggest he possibly had his eyes on an England cap. Which I guess makes sense, given he’s spent his whole life there, also the £20k odd a game playing for them probably doesn’t hurt either.

Would be a shame from a Scotland point of view, but can’t begrudge him electing to play for the country he was born and raised in.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by BigGee on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 9:27 am

I think most professional sports people probably have to take a pragmatic line on this one. How they feel is only a part of what will help them jn their decesions making kn these matters.

I saw an interview with Billy Vinupolo recently when he was asked if he felt English or Tongan and he said Tongan without even blinking. He also qualified it by saying he had spent the greater part of his life here and was very proud to represent England, but that was not how he defined himself.

I imagine Ben Vellacott was very proud to play for the Scotland age grades and probably feels as Scottish as he does English. That won't necessarily stop him playing for England in the future though and why should it.

I would hope that Toonie or one of the others would have a conversation with him about it before he makes up his mind and let him know that he does have a choice. I would be surprised and dissapointed if that had not happened already in fact.

It is not a bad time to potentially be coming into the Scottish setup. An improving young team with an exciting coach. BV has a decent reputation now and is probably established enough for that not to hurt his career down south, so hopefully he can make an informed and genuine choice about what is best for him.

I would not hold it against him if he did choose England. Sometimes that is just the way these things fall and it would prove that the movement of players is not just one way traffic.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by reallybored on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 10:02 am

Is Laidlaw fit yet?

We should definitely call up and cap Vellacott during this 6 Nations, behind Price there hasn't been a stand-out.

G Horne looks like he could be a cracking player but he's been forcing it a bit too much recently.

S Hidalgo-Clyne is doing a decent job marshalling the Edinburgh side, service needs to improve but he's playing better than he was last season.

Not convinced Fowles is Test quality and Pyrgos seems to be regressing.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by TJ on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 10:45 am

I think Laidlaws time is done in a Scotland shirt. Price, Horne, SHC / Pyrgos is a fine selection of SHs to have. Laidlaw is coming back from injury and I'd like to see him play a bit and play well before even thinking of selecting him

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by EWT Spoons on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 11:12 am

I wouldn’t write off laidlaw just yet. He’s not first choice anymore obviously, but if we need to close out a game, then he’s got the experience required to control the players.

Price is first choice, but after him it’s probably still Laidlaw as 2nd pick. G.Horne is still too raw, and that’s fine, he’s just breaking into the Glasgow side, Pyrgos is ok, but was never really challenging for the starting jersey for Scotland. SHC is hot and cold and seems to have fallen out of favour with the Scotland selectors. Fowles is at best a back up player and Kennedy is just coming back from injury and has never really been in the reckoning.

As things stand I don't think we can say Laidlaw is done

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by Hazel Sapling on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 1:23 pm

Expecting Price to start with Laidlaw to bench and Horne/SHC to be 3rd option.

Price is nailed on after his performances in November and Laidlaw offers a slow it down, grind it out option who can take the kicking pressure from the back up fly half if needed in the final 5 minutes. Laidlaw has not played much but has a long history at this level (successfully as a player even in a poor team) and is consistent. No one has been consistently good enough to justify dropping him.

Horne is raw and is similar to Price in style. Until he gets a bit more control in his game like Price has developed a bit more then he is not good enough to not offer a different option. IF Price is out, he is the next man up.

SHC offers a contrasting style and has been in decent form over the course of the season. He is ahead of Pyrgos (whose level has collapsed) and they are competing for the Laidlaw-type role should he be out.

Steele will have to decide what to do with LI after they go down (as will Reid and Tonks). Cowan was loyal and it cost him his Scotland career. He is not ready for internationals but is doing well in a losing side.

Vellacott is not near international level yet, just a good prospect who should be in contention after the World Cup. If anyone caps him, it is to make sure he does not go elsewhere so I hope he gets the advice to wait a few months to secure his place at a surging Gloucester than end up the way of Heathcote or Simpson.

Fowles to me is the worst of the Edinburgh scrum halves. I do not understand why he gets picked. I don't think he controls the game at all well. I prefer Kennedy (especially after how he played under Toonie with Russell).

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by BigGee on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 1:46 pm

FoWales csn pass the ball quickly and accurately, something SHC consistently struggles to do. The rest of his game does not add up to much though and you could say the same thing about Kennedy, who after a promising start to his career has never pushed on.

There is talk of SHC moving on, Bristol has been mentioned
I think that would be a good option, he is at the make or break phase of his career and he needs to challenge himself if he is to fulfil his undoubted potential. He does not have long to do that as the next generation, Horne and (potentially ) Vellacott are snapping at his heals. You can only be a prospect for so long. If he was to go, then Steel to Edinburgh would maybe be no bad move. It would be good to see what he could do whilst playing in a side not losing every week, provided Edinburgh can hold their form. Cockerill knows him from Leicester as well.

I think Toonie should take a punt on either Horne or Vellacott. They would be third choice and there for the experience as much as anything. You can't say neither deserve it though. Horne seems to be ahead of Henry at Glasgow now and BV is pushing hard for the starting spot at Gloucester. In truth I would not like to chose between them.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by NeilyBroon on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 2:14 pm

In other news Hardface is back in training with Edinburgh.

It'd be good if he can find form again, hoping the time away for him has been positive. If he pushes his way back into the squad he's a great bench option.
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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by BigGee on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 2:58 pm

I think Hardie will need to get a few games under his belt before he comes into the Scotland squad, it was not as if he had been playing brilliantly before his enforced rest.

It is hard to judge how this will all have effected him as well. I am sure we will get a press piece with him at some stage and we will hear some more about what has actually gone on. In the meantime getting back into the grind with Edinburgh will probably be good for him.

The international period will give him the chance to get a few games in for Edinburgh and see what his form is like. He may be a useful addition to the squad later on in the tournament when the inevitable injury toll starts to mount up.

It might also allow him to put himself back into the shop window, he has not got a contract for next year yet either.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by Thunderthighs on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 5:58 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:Expecting Price to start with Laidlaw to bench and Horne/SHC to be 3rd option.

Price is nailed on after his performances in November and Laidlaw offers a slow it down, grind it out option who can take the kicking pressure from the back up fly half if needed in the final 5 minutes. Laidlaw has not played much but has a long history at this level (successfully as a player even in a poor team) and is consistent. No one has been consistently good enough to justify dropping him.

Horne is raw and is similar to Price in style. Until he gets a bit more control in his game like Price has developed a bit more then he is not good enough to not offer a different option. IF Price is out, he is the next man up.

SHC offers a contrasting style and has been in decent form over the course of the season. He is ahead of Pyrgos (whose level has collapsed) and they are competing for the Laidlaw-type role should he be out.

Steele will have to decide what to do with LI after they go down (as will Reid and Tonks). Cowan was loyal and it cost him his Scotland career. He is not ready for internationals but is doing well in a losing side.

Vellacott is not near international level yet, just a good prospect who should be in contention after the World Cup. If anyone caps him, it is to make sure he does not go elsewhere so I hope he gets the advice to wait a few months to secure his place at a surging Gloucester than end up the way of Heathcote or Simpson.

Fowles to me is the worst of the Edinburgh scrum halves. I do not understand why he gets picked. I don't think he controls the game at all well. I prefer Kennedy (especially after how he played under Toonie with Russell).

I'm not sure that the Laidlaw option is necessary at the moment.  It's accepted wisdom that if in front during the last 10 minutes, you slow things down and grind out the end of a game, but does that suit the new Scotland?  Our players are fitter and more dynamic than ever,  but if anything, lack bulk and power (especially given the current front row crisis).  Whichever substitute 9 is chosen, do we have the grunt to grind out an attritional last quarter?  I would rather maintain the evolution of this side, and bring on subs who can maintain or even increase the pace.  At the moment, our backup 10 is Horne the elder, who suits a fast game rather than a kicking for territory plan - so why play him outside Laidlaw?  Bring on a high tempo 9 alongside Horne, and keep hammering for the 80.  SHC is coming back into some form, and is a reasonable 2nd choice for now - he can play a controlling game, and can also speed things up (a bit).  I agree with Hazel about Horne the younger, in the longer term he looks like the reserve 9.  I would love to see Price and Russell start, with the Hornes finishing (and while I'm thinking about it, Kinghorn and Graham coming on at the same time).  That's for the future though, SHC for now.

Re Vellacott, he looks a very good prospect in the G. Horne mould.  Again, I agree he's nowhere near ready for internationals, but it would be a shame to lose him.  We don't have to rush him into the 6 Nations, why not send him off to the 7s?

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 6:12 pm

Vellacott plays for Gloucester remember so the SRU have no access to him to play him in the 7s. Plus, 7s doesn't tie you to Scotland so wouldn't make any difference.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by Thunderthighs on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 10:14 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Vellacott plays for Gloucester remember so the SRU have no access to him to play him in the 7s. Plus,  7s doesn't tie you to Scotland so wouldn't make any difference.
I thought 7s did tie you in - is that not how we kept hold of McGuigan? If so, offer him a contract with Edinburgh then send to the 7s. His response to that will show where his heart lies.  Unfortunately, if he's touting himself to England he's probably already made his decision - unless he thinks he can force Scotland into capping him during the 6 Nations.  Don't think he's that good, yet.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 03 Jan 2018, 10:19 pm

Nah Scotland A is our 2nd team. Problem is we don't play A team games anymore - no idea why!

Given that he's a regular for Gloucester now and England supposedly showing interest I think the only way we'll get him is if Townsend puts him in the squad. The 6N is too soon but he could definitely be invited to the summer tour which is a development one to USA, Canada and Argentina. Whether he accepts it or not is a different question!

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by BigGee on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 8:46 am

Thunderthighs wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Vellacott plays for Gloucester remember so the SRU have no access to him to play him in the 7s. Plus,  7s doesn't tie you to Scotland so wouldn't make any difference.
I thought 7s did tie you in - is that not how we kept hold of McGuigan? If so, offer him a contract with Edinburgh then send to the 7s. His response to that will show where his heart lies.  Unfortunately, if he's touting himself to England he's probably already made his decision - unless he thinks he can force Scotland into capping him during the 6 Nations.  Don't think he's that good, yet.

I think touting himself to England is a bit strong. He has only just got his first professional contract and does not want to rock the boat, any SQ professional in England would do the same unless they were really established. Clubs will favour players that are EQ when they are starting out, they have to meet their quotas to get their money from the RFU.

From my recollection of the interview when he was asked about playing internationally, he played it with a very straight bat, which is what any sensible young player would have done. As I said before, professional players need to take a pragmatic view and it would be very hard for any of them to turn down an offer to play internationally. It may come down to who askes him first!

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by MacKnocked-on on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 2:21 pm

Interesting interview with Nick Grigg about SQ players in NZ; http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42567208

I'm intrigued as to the SRU having a talent scout in Japan, are there many young NZ born (and Aussies and South Africans) playing in the leagues there who may be SQ or are we still looking at potential project players even if the residency period is upped to five years as mooted?

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 2:44 pm

I suspect it is because there are lots of kiwis playing in Japan, and a lot of kiwis are SQ!

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by tigertattie on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 5:20 pm

anyone know the patter with residency rule change that is being talked about?

If the residency rule is changed to 5 years, will they need to phase this in? What I mean is, lets say Anton Bresler was still in Edinburgh and was approaching the 3 year anniversary. If World Rugby then changed the rule to 5 years, would Bresler need to then wait another 2 years to be eligible or will there be exemptions to project players who are say halfway through their residency period?
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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 5:28 pm

The rule change will not affect people currently living in the country - i.e. it will only affect those that move after the rule change. Which makes sense.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by EWT Spoons on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 5:28 pm

tigertattie wrote:anyone know the patter with residency rule change that is being talked about?

If the residency rule is changed to 5 years, will they need to phase this in? What I mean is, lets say Anton Bresler was still in Edinburgh and was approaching the 3 year anniversary. If World Rugby then changed the rule to 5 years, would Bresler need to then wait another 2 years to be eligible or will there be exemptions to project players who are say halfway through their residency period?

Tattie have you been away on a remote island or something for the last year?

The 5 year residency rule comes in, in 2020, so any player wanting to be eligible for a nation using the old 3 year rule needed to be in country before the end of last year.  From here on out, it's 5 years, as they would not be eligible once the 5 year rule rolled into place.

Here is some chat from the BBC that covers it http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39868065

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 5:34 pm

Interesting - we have different interpretations!

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by EWT Spoons on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 6:05 pm

Indeed, I can't find it now, but I'm sure I read somewhere that 2017 was the cutoff as they had to be eligible before the rules came in.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by Hazel Sapling on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 6:52 pm

If Graham and Vellacott go on to play for England then that should quiet any talk from England about project players or poaching.

I don't know Graham at all so can't say whether his style would suit. Hopefully someone can enlighten me.

I assume if Toonie is interested, he will be making the point that they will likely get only a few caps for England (at least until the RWC) and they have a better chance of getting into Scotland's where the back-up spots are more in the air.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:02 pm

I'm not so sure that would make things equal Hazel.

Both players have lived and been brought up through the English system so there's hardly any poaching going on.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:23 pm

It shouldn't quieten any talk about increasing compensation and extending it. It should again highlight the need.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by BigGee on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:47 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not so sure that would make things equal Hazel.

Both players have lived and been brought up through the English system so there's hardly any poaching going on.

Don't entirely agree with that.

Gary Graham was developed at Gala, where his dad was the coach and played Scotland u20s while he was there. He went from there to Jersey then Newcastle. His brother now plays for Hawick and may well be in the Scotland u20s this year.

BV came along the Scottish exiles pathway and played all his representative rugby for Scotland along the way.

I would say that both countries have been involved in developing the players to the level that they are now at.

I don't really like the term poaching in any case. Both players are dual qualified and are free to choose who they wish to play for. If they have a genuine choice it must be very difficult for them, I am sure that they feel a pull in both directions, especially Gary Graham whose father was a Scotland International. They need to make the best decisions for themselves and their careers.

I do agree as well though that it does show that dual qualifications work both for and against all countries and England benefit from it as much as any other country. It has always been this way.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 7:59 pm

In all honesty, I don't think Graham will capped anyway. He's a good, abrasive flanker, but not sure he's at International level. Even as a Falcons fan, I'm rather surprised.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by Hazel Sapling on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 9:52 pm

Is Graham a similar sort to Hamilton? A 6.5 type flanker?

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by BigGee on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 9:21 am

Hazel Sapling wrote:Is Graham a similar sort to Hamilton? A 6.5 type flanker?

He is a bit bigger than Hamilton, probably more of your modern generic back row player than a classic open side. I am sure he could play right across the back row.

It would be a remarkable feet if he was capped for England at his age and lack of premiership experience. You never know quite how EJ mind works with these things. Is he seeing something that everyone else has missed, or is he just playing games to give other players a jog along. It will be interesting to see if he actually makes it into the 6N squad.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 10:06 am

He plays a bit like Haskell. Very physical and all action.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by cascough on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 11:58 am

Hazel Sapling wrote:If Graham and Vellacott go on to play for England then that should quiet any talk from England about project players or poaching.


Clear misunderstanding of what a project player is (which England have never complained about) and a further misunderstanding of what England complained about.

A project player is a player who is brought over to a team/province/region with the purpose or earning residency to represent the national team. England don't do that and have never complained about it. Other unions that do, are quite open about it. They have scouts set up to identify exactly that and the recruitment comes from the top down. England have had players that have moved to England and then later declared an intention to represent England, but the crucial difference is the RFU did not influence that players recruitment. In the case of someone like Thomas Waldrom, Leicester (not the RFU) brought him over because he WASN'T English qualified and therefore would be available all year round. When Waldrom later discovered he had an English Grandmother and was eligible, this caused Cockers much ire.

England complained not about other nations calling up players who were English qualified, but other nations calling up products of English academies (which the RFU fund). Even then, they weren't complaining about the call up per se, but about the level of financial remuneration. At the end of the day, it's a business issue. Now whatever you think about that, it should be obvious that this is not the same as the Graham situation. To the best of my knowledge Graham did not come through a Scottish academy and which is more, he's 25. Scotland have had plenty of time to call him up if they wish (and could still put in a phone call if they want to!) for the last 4/5 years he's been playing in England. Velacott has never played in Scotland be that an academy or otherwise. Dual nationality is a tricky issue and someone else has said all countries benefit from it. I'd agree that all countries benefit from it from a playing perspective. But all countries do not benefit it from a financial perspective, which is what the RFU were complaining about.

Still think the RFU are being unreasonable? That's your prerogative. But be clear, it's not the same.




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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 12:02 pm

There are always English scouts in Wales looking at the younger age grade players, but I think that is more to do with finding players for clubs rather than England, but that does not stop them opting for England if they become eligible mind.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 12:07 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:If Graham and Vellacott go on to play for England then that should quiet any talk from England about project players or poaching.

Vellacott is born in England to an English father, schooled in England, trained in England. Sure he has played a lot for Scottish age group teams (due to a Scottish mother and lack of interest from England age grades) but not sure he could really be described as a project player or being poached. Not sure he is in Jones thoughts at the moment - and Vellacott's decision to stay England qualified seems more about keeping a club contract than anything else.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by demosthenes on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 12:13 pm

On to prop news - Fagerson out for up to eight weeks.

We might be seeing some new caps in the front row come the 6N!

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by NeilyBroon on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 12:13 pm

Fagerson has a foot injury which will keep him out for up to 8 weeks... Can we press the pre-6Ns injury panic button yet?

Tiger - agree, although could you spare us a few props? There must be more in the AP with a Scottish second cousin once-removed that England don't want.
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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by NeilyBroon on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 12:15 pm

demosthenes wrote:On to prop news - Fagerson out for up to eight weeks.

We might be seeing some new caps in the front row come the 6N!

I think I'll just google any props with the surname McDonald and forward them on to the coaching team.
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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 12:17 pm

Baws.

This could have a huge bearing on our chances - we're going to be second best in the scrums against pretty much all other teams and will likely leak a lot of penalties. Given how close the games are likely to be this could make all the difference!

Welsh to start, Rae or McCallum bench v Wales...?? Shocked

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 12:17 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:
demosthenes wrote:On to prop news - Fagerson out for up to eight weeks.

We might be seeing some new caps in the front row come the 6N!

I think I'll just google any props with the surname McDonald and forward them on to the coaching team.

Jon Welsh?

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by NeilyBroon on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 12:20 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:
demosthenes wrote:On to prop news - Fagerson out for up to eight weeks.

We might be seeing some new caps in the front row come the 6N!

I think I'll just google any props with the surname McDonald and forward them on to the coaching team.

Jon Welsh?

Good point although if we lose him we're absolutely Donald ducked
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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by BigGee on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 12:20 pm

Apparently a weights bench dropped onto his foot whilst in the gym!

Unbelievable, it could only happen to a prop!

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by Scottrf on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 12:20 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
NeilyBroon wrote:
demosthenes wrote:On to prop news - Fagerson out for up to eight weeks.

We might be seeing some new caps in the front row come the 6N!

I think I'll just google any props with the surname McDonald and forward them on to the coaching team.

Jon Welsh?

No, his surname is Welsh.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by reallybored on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 12:26 pm

Dear baby jebus, what have we done to deserve such rotten luck at TH.

I rate Welsh so don't think it's too much of a step down but we'll be properly donald ducked if he gets injured too.

Shame that Cummings is injured too but we've got plenty of depth there right now.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by RDW_Scotland on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 12:28 pm

cascough wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:If Graham and Vellacott go on to play for England then that should quiet any talk from England about project players or poaching.


Clear misunderstanding of what a project player is (which England have never complained about) and a further misunderstanding of what England complained about.

A project player is a player who is brought over to a team/province/region with the purpose or earning residency to represent the national team. England don't do that and have never complained about it. Other unions that do, are quite open about it. They have scouts set up to identify exactly that and the recruitment comes from the top down. England have had players that have moved to England and then later declared an intention to represent England, but the crucial difference is the RFU did not influence that players recruitment. In the case of someone like Thomas Waldrom, Leicester (not the RFU) brought him over because he WASN'T English qualified and therefore would be available all year round. When Waldrom later discovered he had an English Grandmother and was eligible, this caused Cockers much ire.  

England complained not about other nations calling up players who were English qualified, but other nations calling up products of English academies (which the RFU fund). Even then, they weren't complaining about the call up per se, but about the level of financial remuneration. At the end of the day, it's a business issue. Now whatever you think about that, it should be obvious that this is not the same as the Graham situation. To the best of my knowledge Graham did not come through a Scottish academy and which is more, he's 25. Scotland have had plenty of time to call him up if they wish (and could still put in a phone call if they want to!) for the last 4/5 years he's been playing in England. Velacott has never played in Scotland be that an academy or otherwise. Dual nationality is a tricky issue and someone else has said all countries benefit from it. I'd agree that all countries benefit from it from a playing perspective. But all countries do not benefit it from a financial perspective, which is what the RFU were complaining about.

Still think the RFU are being unreasonable? That's your prerogative. But be clear, it's not the same



Whilst I agree with the general sentiment that these two shouldn’t be used as examples of RFU ‘poaching’ SQ players, I also don’t think they are pure examples of the RFU complaining about Scotland poaching players that they have paid to develop, as both Unions have played a part in each player.

GG learnt to play rugby in Scotland from a child to a young adult, and I’m sure would have benefitted from SRU paid coaching in the pathway programmes as a teenager, leading up to his inclusion in the under 20s and all the investment that goes on each player involved. Yes he then made his name as a pro player in England with investment from the clubs he played for, but you can’t discount the SRU’s investment in his formative years.

I also don’t think you can discount the SRU’s involvement and investment in BV’s development as he’s played all his age-grade rugby for Scotland (under 16s, 17s and 20s). Once you consider all the age-grade training camps and tournaments there is again a decent level of investment from the SRU when you add up coaching, support staff, kit, insurance, accommodation, travel etc. Gloucester have certainly played a big part in making him the player he is today but so did the SRU. Chances are if he wasn’t in the Scotland age-grade system he may have had no age-grade international rugby (such is the competition for places in the England squad) so wouldn’t have made it as a pro anyway!

So while these two have brought the topic to discussion again I don’t think they are prime examples of either side of the argument.

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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by NeilyBroon on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 12:32 pm

Is it worth Gregor asking Rennie to give Adam Nicol a runout off the bench at Glasgow? See what he can do?
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Re: Scotland Autumn Test postmortem and 6N look ahead

Post by MacKnocked-on on Fri 05 Jan 2018, 12:36 pm

Any more TH injuries and Mike Cusack will be recalled.

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