New Zealand dicipline

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New Zealand dicipline

Post by Collapse2005 on Mon 27 Nov 2017, 12:34 pm

First topic message reminder :

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/99278416/all-blacks-see-plenty-of-yellow-and-a-bit-of-red-in-2017

NZ are oficially the most ill diciplined team in world rugby. Despite the denial shown by Steve Hanson whenever questioned on NZs dicipline (most famously after playing Ireland in Dublin where they dodged two red cards through poor refereeing) they are the most carded side in 07 and in general ill diciplined.

Is it time Hanson acknowledged this fact?

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by Taylorman on Mon 04 Dec 2017, 10:48 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wales over rated him? I don't understand your point.

It was a throwaway. But I dont think they expected the one player to cause so many problems. Attack after attack he demolished single handedly.

One of the lesser known things about Cane is he follows McCaws punishing fitness and full on training attitude. In contact drills he hits just as hard as does in matches and needs to be told to pull his head in often, such is his single minded determination.

Kiwis, myself included, are gradually coming around to his value in the side and I think overall hes generally underated by most, especially non NZers. Though somehow Im guessing a few of the Welsh players respect him a little more after that effort.

Anyway, watch this space is all I can say. I think Cane will be one of the most dominant players in the next 1-2 years.

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 04 Dec 2017, 10:54 am

You're either coming round to him or consider him to be the best 7 in the world. Not sure you can have both!

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 04 Dec 2017, 11:00 am

I think Taylor is getting a little muddled! Wink

I get the point though. You rate him highly and you think he'll start proving himself on the Int stage over the next few years. He hasn't so far but he's not exactly old at almost 26, he should be coming into his prime.

Watch this space I guess.

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by Taylorman on Mon 04 Dec 2017, 11:19 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:You're either coming round to him or consider him to be the best 7 in the world. Not sure you can have both!

The lack of any others prompted that comment. Pocock is arguably the best seven but isnt playing. Of the rest only SOB rates for me. Hooper, no Bok seven is anywhere near Cane in 2017, Tipuric and Warbrton are so so and from memory have never outperformed Cane, let alone McCaw.

And last week put in a dominating performance that no one else got near, so right now, number one for me, and justifiably so.

Anyway, that might change over the next year but I think his presence is going to start making a lot of backs more and more nervous as we get near the 19 tournament and his reputation precedes him.

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 04 Dec 2017, 11:22 am

Tipuric is the best 7 in the world for me. Been injured but gatland rates Warburton more highly. But then he rates jones as one of the best locks in the world too! I'll be honest and say cane.is good but he's not going to be making anyone nervous. At present for the first time in a good while nz are very dependant on a couple of key players and lack a.bit of quality on their reserves. Note you're still an exceptional team but not where.you were.

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by Taylorman on Mon 04 Dec 2017, 12:16 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Tipuric is the best 7 in the world for me. Been injured but gatland rates Warburton more highly. But then he rates jones as one of the best locks in the world too! I'll be honest and say cane.is good but he's not going to be making anyone nervous. At present for the first time in a good while nz are very dependant on a couple of key players and lack a.bit of quality on their reserves. Note you're still an exceptional team but not where.you were.

Well Cane made some very nervous Welshmen after last week Id say. Webb, Biggar and Faletau all smashed in Cane tackles and two not playing versus SA the next week from injuries from the match.

Very interesting that between you you arent impressed and when I read up to four northern match write ups not one mentions Cane...at all. Its mostly about the artistry of Ioane and Naholo, the obvious standouts visually.

Yet all of NZs post match reviews have Canes 21, often bone crunching tackles as the cornerstone of the win.

Sometimes I do wonder if the NH really do know what this games about.

Its just an observation about the differences we have in what wins this game. Some of the comments here are telling
https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/7gbomx/sam_cane_defensive_highlights_wales_vs_all_blacks/

...but I wont go on now, prefer he stays under the radar myself anyway. thumbsup


Last edited by Taylorman on Mon 04 Dec 2017, 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 04 Dec 2017, 12:40 pm

Pointless wum at the end there.

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by Taylorman on Mon 04 Dec 2017, 12:43 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Pointless wum at the end there.

Not really, four complete articles on the game and they dont even mention the impact Cane had on the ability of the Welsh to make ground for large parts of the match. Thats a poor read in anyones book.

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 04 Dec 2017, 12:49 pm

We know about solid flankers who tackle. From worsley through to underhill and moriarty. You talked about gwlad generalising yet you're happy to do so yourself.

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by Taylorman on Mon 04 Dec 2017, 1:03 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:We know about solid flankers who tackle. From worsley through to underhill and moriarty. You talked about gwlad generalising yet you're happy to do so yourself.

This was not generalising. This was a specific performance and four accounts of it that failed to even register the player that made the most impact on the match while naming just about every other player on the field.

Wales have now gone 30 losing matches straight, a record for consecutive test losses against the same side, and still they couldnt pinpoint the key reasons this time around. Anyway, we're in broken record territory again. Good discussion though, but clearly some very different viewpoints about how we see the game.

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 04 Dec 2017, 1:10 pm

Probably best not to write comments about a nh viewpoint and I won't get so.confused!

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by aucklandlaurie on Tue 05 Dec 2017, 2:04 pm

On the subject of open side flankers, what do you guys think of Kwagga Smith?

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 05 Dec 2017, 2:37 pm

Another few games and I'm sure you'll rate somebody else the best Taylor Wink

To me a player needs more than a run of a few games to be regarded in the top bracket. Form comes and goes but class is permanent, as they say. Louw is head and shoulders above Cane although the former is on the decline, he can still reach a level Cane is unable to.

Things change, you may well be mocking us come next AI. Or then again, Cane could have lost his spot in the NZ set-up and we could be talking about an entirely different player.

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by Taylorman on Fri 08 Dec 2017, 9:36 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Another few games and I'm sure you'll rate somebody else the best Taylor Wink

To me a player needs more than a run of a few games to be regarded in the top bracket. Form comes and goes but class is permanent, as they say. Louw is head and shoulders above Cane although the former is on the decline, he can still reach a level Cane is unable to.

Things change, you may well be mocking us come next AI. Or then again, Cane could have lost his spot in the NZ set-up and we could be talking about an entirely different player.  

Yes well again I think you make the mistake of not watching the right matches, northerners did the same with Ruan Pienaar where Ulster fans thought he was the bees knees. In test matches in the 3N he was awful, and not unusually, the reason they lost.

Louw is an awesome loosie but head and shoulders above Cane? No chance. Canes success is in his consistency. He rarely puts in a bad performance and is one of those guys that is always going till he drops.

Louw had some very good tests vs NZ and yes at his best would out point Cane, but he also had some very poor ones, at times he was actually reduced to a walk after fifty minutes, it was that obvious.

Id say if you remove what youve seen of Louw in NH club rugby youd hardly know what he was like, because theres a common theme about the respect NHers have towards SH players, and it usually stems from their involvement in a NH club....its...endearing. And NH club rugby if anything, is no measure of a players test quality.

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Dec 2017, 9:55 pm

Yet a lot of nz fans don't rate bod so hardly somthing to follow when rating players!

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 08 Dec 2017, 10:21 pm

Most of my opinions of Louw are from his Int games tbh, not seen him that much for Bath.

Pienaar was always an average Int, same with Hougaard but they suit the NH game. I just don't rate Cane that highly from seeing him in a fair number of games for club and country. I did miss the Wales game but that's one in a fair few and Wales aren't exactly the bench mark I'd be marking players against tbh.

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by Taylorman on Sat 09 Dec 2017, 3:20 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Most of my opinions of Louw are from his Int games tbh, not seen him that much for Bath.

Pienaar was always an average Int, same with Hougaard but they suit the NH game. I just don't rate Cane that highly from seeing him in a fair number of games for club and country. I did miss the Wales game but that's one in a fair few and Wales aren't exactly the bench mark I'd be marking players against tbh.

Thats true but for 47 wins...34 starts and only 4 losses at 90% clearly theres a reason the ABs keep picking him, so Ill go with that. Also true that 'anyone could win with the ABs' ... we get that a lot, but they probably wouldnt be given 47 tests if they werent a key reason the side is winning.

Its also true that Kiwis themselves underate him, I was one, and thats because a lot of his work is unspectacular...the dark areas....but we are starting to appreciate that and I for one admire that sort of player, one that will put himself on the line time after time, even if no one else knows it.

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Sat 09 Dec 2017, 9:22 am

I don't buy into these team accolades meaning an individual is world class though Taylor. We hear this from the Saracens fans a fair bit and it just doesn't wash.

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by Taylorman on Sat 09 Dec 2017, 9:56 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't buy into these team accolades meaning an individual is world class though Taylor. We hear this from the Saracens fans a fair bit and it just doesn't wash.

Didnt ask you to. not a lot of detail or content coming from your perspective on well, anything really so we'll leave it at that. I dont buy into bland, generalised statements either.All good. thumbsup

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 10 Dec 2017, 12:41 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't buy into these team accolades meaning an individual is world class though Taylor. We hear this from the Saracens fans a fair bit and it just doesn't wash.

Amen brother!

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Re: New Zealand dicipline

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