The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

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The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Pal Joey on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 7:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

3rd Test Perth, December 14-18, 2017

Australia:
Bancroft, Warner, Khawaja, Smith *, S Marsh, M Marsh, Paine †, Starc, Cummins, Lyon, Hazelwood

England:
Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root *, Malan, Bairstow †, Ali, Woakes, Overton, Broad, Anderson

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 11:14 am

alfie wrote:Need a hell of a lot of rain !  Not even wishing for it...if they can't bat their way out of it then 3-0 is fair enough.

Have any wickets really been down to cracks in the wicket ? That Starc ball was a rocket anyway ; guess the movement was a bit extreme but it is day four...  Think the cracks are more there to make the batsmen fear there's one with their name on it ...not that it seemed to worry Smith much.

Excellent bowling from Australia this afternoon : no expectation it would just happen , they really got stuck in from the start , Hazlewood continues to do a wonderful job , taking vital wickets again.  Any fears the three quicks would burn out seem to have been groundless...the England bowlers are looking more like dropping  - though I suppose that is because they're having to keep working much longer hours Smile

Jokes aside I have to commend Smith and his men for an outstanding effort in this match in particular : coming back after the Malan-Bairstow stand to sweep away the rest of the innings was a wonderful performance , however critical we might be of some of the England players.
As eirebilly says sometimes you just have to admit you've been outplayed.

Hi Alfie and all - yep. As regards commendation, not just Smith's batting but his captaincy as well. I see Billy's been mentioning the importance of 'concentration' again and he's absolutely right to do so. It was astute captaincy to not declare at lunch as some thought would be the case.

As regulars will have heard me bang on about before, Alec Stewart at Surrey regularly emphasises the value of time to an opening batsman in which to prepare for his innings. Therefore, the opposition captain should try to minimise the time available by not declaring overnight or during a scheduled interval. I strongly suspect that Smith batted on or after lunch not so much for the runs but to keep Cook and Stoneman waiting and wondering. It certainly worked. Poor shots to get out by both England's openers although Hazlewood's catch off his own bowling was stunning.

I suppose we could still have a tense finish but only if one session (the first?) is wiped out by rain. I do feel that would be undeserved though and don't really want weather being the major factor in saving us.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by alfie on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 11:24 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Thing is, the new guys who have come into the team (Stoneman, Vince, Malan, Overton) have all done well to acceptable. So I find it tough to criticise the selectors too much when it's the senior players letting the side down (Cook/Root/Ali have been really poor with the bat, Woakes/Broad and Anderson a bit (harsh maybe - but he has wasted the new ball by consistently bowling short) have all been poor with the ball).

Only senior player who can hold his head up and say he's done fine is Bairstow really. Not going to win many series with that formula!

If you want to be harsh you could also criticize Bairstow for consistently failing to make any serious attempt to cajole/protect/shepherd the tail ...he's got himself out just about every time by going nuts as soon as a couple of wickets have fallen instead of trying to ensure an extra twenty or thirty runs farming the strike etc...
Funny because I thought he would actually be quite good at that ; think he has been previously ? Perhaps all the smart sledging really did work on him .
Even so he has done quite well ...though I am still hearing people calling for him to give up the gloves to Foakes and just bat : I seriously can't see that as a positive as it's not going to solve the Top Three Positions problem...

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 11:35 am

alfie wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Thing is, the new guys who have come into the team (Stoneman, Vince, Malan, Overton) have all done well to acceptable. So I find it tough to criticise the selectors too much when it's the senior players letting the side down (Cook/Root/Ali have been really poor with the bat, Woakes/Broad and Anderson a bit (harsh maybe - but he has wasted the new ball by consistently bowling short) have all been poor with the ball).

Only senior player who can hold his head up and say he's done fine is Bairstow really. Not going to win many series with that formula!

If you want to be harsh you could also criticize Bairstow for consistently failing to make any serious attempt to cajole/protect/shepherd the tail ...he's got himself out just about every time by going nuts as soon as a couple of wickets have fallen instead of trying to ensure an extra twenty or thirty runs farming the strike etc...
Funny because I thought he would actually be quite good at that ; think he has been previously ?  Perhaps all the smart sledging really did work on him .
Even so he has done quite well ...though I am still hearing people calling for him to give up the gloves to Foakes and just bat : I seriously can't see that as a positive as it's not going to solve the Top Three Positions problem...

Lovely bit of analysis and expression there, Alfie! There again, I am punch drunk with the likes of Smith, Vaughan Swann and Mitchell on BT Sport! Very Happy

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Duty281 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 11:53 am

Another good day for Australia. Shame Smith couldn't bat to 300.

Can't see England surviving any more than another 45 overs, at best, so Root will be praying for something like this tomorrow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU3rp04Q2nE

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by jimbohammers on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 12:04 pm

Duty281 wrote:Another good day for Australia. Shame Smith couldn't bat to 300.

I remember reading this board a while back and im sure you was an England fan, Duty? Headscratch

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by jimbohammers on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 12:06 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Thing is, the new guys who have come into the team (Stoneman, Vince, Malan, Overton) have all done well to acceptable. So I find it tough to criticise the selectors too much when it's the senior players letting the side down (Cook/Root/Ali have been really poor with the bat, Woakes/Broad and Anderson a bit (harsh maybe - but he has wasted the new ball by consistently bowling short) have all been poor with the ball).

Only senior player who can hold his head up and say he's done fine is Bairstow really. Not going to win many series with that formula!

I agree with that Olly

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Duty281 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 12:10 pm

jimbohammers wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Another good day for Australia. Shame Smith couldn't bat to 300.

I remember reading this board a while back and im sure you was an England fan, Duty? Headscratch

Got £25 on a batsman making a treble ton this series at 40/1!

That was probably the best chance of landing it.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 12:14 pm

jimbohammers wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Another good day for Australia. Shame Smith couldn't bat to 300.

I remember reading this board a while back and im sure you was an England fan, Duty? Headscratch

Hi Jimbo - yes, but Duty has money riding on a triple ton in the series! Smile

What a cracker of a ball today to get your man Vince! He was right out of luck there. Felt if it had rained soup at the WACA, he would have been been the one holding a knife and fork! Wink

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by compelling and rich on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 12:20 pm

alfie wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Thing is, the new guys who have come into the team (Stoneman, Vince, Malan, Overton) have all done well to acceptable. So I find it tough to criticise the selectors too much when it's the senior players letting the side down (Cook/Root/Ali have been really poor with the bat, Woakes/Broad and Anderson a bit (harsh maybe - but he has wasted the new ball by consistently bowling short) have all been poor with the ball).

Only senior player who can hold his head up and say he's done fine is Bairstow really. Not going to win many series with that formula!

If you want to be harsh you could also criticize Bairstow for consistently failing to make any serious attempt to cajole/protect/shepherd the tail ...he's got himself out just about every time by going nuts as soon as a couple of wickets have fallen instead of trying to ensure an extra twenty or thirty runs farming the strike etc...
Funny because I thought he would actually be quite good at that ; think he has been previously ?  Perhaps all the smart sledging really did work on him .
Even so he has done quite well ...though I am still hearing people calling for him to give up the gloves to Foakes and just bat : I seriously can't see that as a positive as it's not going to solve the Top Three Positions problem...

it is slightly harsh but i do agree with this, at the time i posted

"Just waiting on Bairstow to recklessly give his away now by going to aggressive. Needs to hog strike and play normally. Give the tail ender only 1 or none if possible"

next ball he was out. if your batting as low as bairstow is its a skill he needs to learn

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by KP_fan on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 2:08 pm

>What a pale , stale outcome of a premium rivalry that promised so much more
Eng lost a test each to WI and SA in 3 test series, SA was a close series at home
Even the last Ashes  in Eng......Aus lost a close 2-3

They do not deliver whitewashes in their own conditions.....and

Now in Alien conditions Eng set to lose 5-0 after their 4-0 loss in India

> There can be plenty of excuses, self-forgiveness, mitigating self-assurances
BUT Reason there is one
Eng lacks the bowling to pick 20 wickets in aus
More importantly Eng lacks the intent to bowl like its needed to pick 20 wickets

> What's destroyed Eng's intent is The Flower-Template.....pick bowlers for their batting abilities
and hope they got a strip that favored Anderson /Broad  Swann for a win
and preserve Anderson / Broad...means not force them to bend back on pitches with little lateral movement.
Overton the case in point.....a 120 + kph stock ball medium pacer....who can bat a bit
and when such medium pacers under pressure to show they can ball quick stretch their bodies beyond the limit...they injure themselves groin strains, side pulls, over-stretched stomach muscles, ribs issues....
I have seen Irfan Pathan, Bhuvi, Praveen kumar, Vinay Kumar all injure themselves in a similar way trying to bowl faster to impress in international games....at speeds higher than their stock speed


> What they could have done.....

Other than Anderson and Woakes...ask the other two seamers  to bend their backs....try and hit 140kph and dig it in
and if those two broke down...bring another two
That would be intent...that's missing

Play another spinners in place of Ali.....if Mason wasn't good enough why they brought him at all....and if there is a realization after T1 that Ali wasn't gonna make an impact and Mason ain't good enough...why not fly another guy in
the next tour to Aus will come in 4 years and every test match is premium

That would be intent that's missing

> Not necessarily intent would have won them tests...but it would have certainly stretched the games ...more fight....and would have won them accolades and pride for the fans and followers
instead of the pale/stale/drab/lackluster show so far
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 3:40 pm

Lose this, as we will, and do they make changes?

I can sympathise with the selectors on the bowling, but I think a risk could have been taken rather than being so samey. However, not having TRJ, Finn, Wood, Stokes, other Overton - that's a lot of injury and also quite an amount of difference in the attack (be it height or more pace). 

I don't know where you look after that? Lions bowlers haven't really mounted a case (is Curran going to be good enough?) and then we seem to have got a lot more white ball specialists who cannae be used with the red. 

I know it gets scoffed at, but I'd have at least brought Plunkett. 

I'd probably drop Ali now, but goodness knows if it'll be of benefit really. Broad and Ali for a rest wouldn't seem the worst choices.

Less said about Cook the better. For his failings here, the worst part is that the cupboard was almost empty when we were scratching for a partner, so how can he be replaced?!

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Duty281 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 3:53 pm

I wouldn't drop Cook, but he may be due a rest for the NZ tests as he has played 148 consecutive Tests! Of course, he could retire post-Ashes and take the decision out of the selectors' hands.

Anderson, too, at 35 years old is another one who I wouldn't be surprised to see retire following this series.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 4:02 pm

The questions have to be asked of Ali. He is in the side as a batsman who can bowl a bit but he is offering zilch to the side if he is not scoring and not bowling well. Bring in Mason Crane or Leech if necessary. Poor form should not be accommodated so readily.

It would also make sense to rest Broad as he has been very disappointing. Get a younger hand in such as Ball or Curran as these are the kind of players England will need to bed into the side once Broad and Anderson retire. However, now that I think about it, Overton will no doubt drop out due to his cracked rib so Broad may get a reprieve on those grounds. The batting line-up I would keep as is as any changes would not be for the better that I can see.
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 5:56 pm

Duty281 wrote:I wouldn't drop Cook, but he may be due a rest for the NZ tests as he has played 148 consecutive Tests! Of course, he could retire post-Ashes and take the decision out of the selectors' hands.

Anderson, too, at 35 years old is another one who I wouldn't be surprised to see retire following this series.

Hi Duty - re Anderson, he's now only 45 wickets behind McGrath as the leading seam bowling wicket taker of all time. That doesn't prove anything as regards the future and I know nothing of Anderson personally but I would never rush to dismiss the importance of statistics to a professional cricketer. I was once at a members' meeting at the Oval when my man Stewart said stats meant nothing to him before reeling off his Test batting average to three decimal points for both when he kept wicket and when he didn't. Wink

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 6:03 pm

I can't see Anderson retiring just yet. He is still England's leading wicket-taker on this tour and even in stifling conditions he has managed to do 6, 7 or 8 over stints so his fitness is not an issue. He will want to go out on a high and this series certainly does not look liking being anything like that.
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 7:44 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:The questions have to be asked of Ali. He is in the side as a batsman who can bowl a bit but he is offering zilch to the side if he is not scoring and not bowling well. Bring in Mason Crane or Leech if necessary. Poor form should not be accommodated so readily.

It would also make sense to rest Broad as he has been very disappointing. Get a younger hand in such as Ball or Curran as these are the kind of players England will need to bed into the side once Broad and Anderson retire. However, now that I think about it, Overton will no doubt drop out due to his cracked rib so Broad may get a reprieve on those grounds. The batting line-up I would keep as is as any changes would not be for the better that I can see.

I actually think Moeen is in the side as much for his bowling as his batting but no matter. He's currently a long way from cutting the mustard on either front. He can't expect to keep his place indefinitely - not least, there's all the points I'm losing in LD's competition to consider! Wink

At least on paper, Moeen brings balance to the side although I accept that counts for very little if he's failing to deliver on grass. The issue, however, is that we have no remotely comparable player on this tour to bring in. Any replacement will immediately weaken the look of the batting (eg Crane), leave us a bowler short (eg Ballance) or give us a fifth seamer as a spare part and also weaken the batting (eg Ball).

Not for the first time, I do think Dawson should have been in the party as cover. I like the look of Crane a lot but have always felt that if he was going to play a Test on this tour it would have been as a foil to Moeen on a spinner's track (unlikely I know) rather than as his replacement.

The other person reflecting now on how things seem to be going for Moeen might be Olly's one time golden boy Ansari. If not for his own reasons in chucking in the towel, he might still have had a Test future.






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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by KP_fan on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 7:52 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:The questions have to be asked of Ali. He is in the side as a batsman who can bowl a bit but he is offering zilch to the side if he is not scoring and not bowling well. Bring in Mason Crane or Leech if necessary. Poor form should not be accommodated so readily.

It would also make sense to rest Broad as he has been very disappointing. Get a younger hand in such as Ball or Curran as these are the kind of players England will need to bed into the side once Broad and Anderson retire. However, now that I think about it, Overton will no doubt drop out due to his cracked rib so Broad may get a reprieve on those grounds. The batting line-up I would keep as is as any changes would not be for the better that I can see.

I actually think Moeen is in the side as much for his bowling as his batting but no matter. He's currently a long way from cutting the mustard on either front. He can't expect to keep his place indefinitely - not least, there's all the points I'm losing in LD's competition to consider! Wink

At least on paper, Moeen brings balance to the side although I accept that counts for very little if he's failing to deliver on grass. The issue, however, is that we have no remotely comparable player on this tour to bring in. Any replacement will immediately weaken the look of the batting (eg Crane), leave us a bowler short (eg Ballance) or give us a fifth seamer as a spare part and also weaken the batting (eg Ball).

Not for the first time, I do think Dawson should have been in the party as cover. I like the look of Crane a lot but have always felt that if he was going to play a Test on this tour it would have been as a foil to Moeen on a spinner's track (unlikely I know) rather than as his replacement.

The other person reflecting now on how things seem to be going for Moeen might be Olly's one time golden boy Ansari. If not for his own reasons in chucking in the towel, he might still have had a Test future.



Why has Adil Rashid fallen off selectors reckoning completely
He did well in subcontinent
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 8:06 pm

KP - that's a good question about Rashid. I get the impression that he's now increasingly considered by the selectors to be a limited overs bowler, not having the necessary control and consistency to send down 20+ overs in the day. I have some understanding of that view (if it's the one they've come to) but the time they took in reaching it and when leaves a lot to be desired.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by KP_fan on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 8:19 pm

guildfordbat wrote:KP - that's a good question about Rashid. I get the impression that he's now increasingly considered by the selectors to be a limited overs bowler, not having the necessary control and consistency to send down 20+ overs in the day. I have some understanding of that view (if it's the one they've come to) but the time they took in reaching it and when leaves a lot to be desired.

300 overs in his last 7 tests for 30 wickets @ ~33 a piece of some very good batsmen against spin
and a handy lower order batsman too
wasn't the performance that deserved to be dropped completely, especially for a side whose first choice spinner is Ali and second choice spinner not deemed worthy to be played in a test (Crane)

My own view of Rashid was....a much better second inning bowler or one for under-prepared pitches
He would have done well in first two tests where Lyon was turning square
or for example if he gotta bowl on this WACA pitch on D4/D5 when we see cracks having opened up and variable bounce


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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 8:19 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:The questions have to be asked of Ali. He is in the side as a batsman who can bowl a bit but he is offering zilch to the side if he is not scoring and not bowling well. Bring in Mason Crane or Leech if necessary. Poor form should not be accommodated so readily.

It would also make sense to rest Broad as he has been very disappointing. Get a younger hand in such as Ball or Curran as these are the kind of players England will need to bed into the side once Broad and Anderson retire. However, now that I think about it, Overton will no doubt drop out due to his cracked rib so Broad may get a reprieve on those grounds. The batting line-up I would keep as is as any changes would not be for the better that I can see.

I actually think Moeen is in the side as much for his bowling as his batting but no matter. He's currently a long way from cutting the mustard on either front. He can't expect to keep his place indefinitely - not least, there's all the points I'm losing in LD's competition to consider! Wink

At least on paper, Moeen brings balance to the side although I accept that counts for very little if he's failing to deliver on grass. The issue, however, is that we have no remotely comparable player on this tour to bring in. Any replacement will immediately weaken the look of the batting (eg Crane), leave us a bowler short (eg Ballance) or give us a fifth seamer as a spare part and also weaken the batting (eg Ball).

Not for the first time, I do think Dawson should have been in the party as cover. I like the look of Crane a lot but have always felt that if he was going to play a Test on this tour it would have been as a foil to Moeen on a spinner's track (unlikely I know) rather than as his replacement.

The other person reflecting now on how things seem to be going for Moeen might be Olly's one time golden boy Ansari. If not for his own reasons in chucking in the towel, he might still have had a Test future.






Ali is not contributing with the bat anyway so negates the point losing that element. Ali is taken up a spot in the side for what? Batting - no as he is a walking wicket to Lyon. Bowling - no as his figures clearly show. Keeping him in the side is doing the team no favours and doing him no favours either as his confidence is just being driven into the dust with his sub-par performances.

Sure Crane or Leech most probably are not ready but at least giving them the chance their potential can be judged. And in any case in his present mindset neither is Ali ready.

Tomorrow is his chance to convince me otherwise with the bat but I don't hold out high hopes.
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 8:41 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:The questions have to be asked of Ali. He is in the side as a batsman who can bowl a bit but he is offering zilch to the side if he is not scoring and not bowling well. Bring in Mason Crane or Leech if necessary. Poor form should not be accommodated so readily.

It would also make sense to rest Broad as he has been very disappointing. Get a younger hand in such as Ball or Curran as these are the kind of players England will need to bed into the side once Broad and Anderson retire. However, now that I think about it, Overton will no doubt drop out due to his cracked rib so Broad may get a reprieve on those grounds. The batting line-up I would keep as is as any changes would not be for the better that I can see.

I actually think Moeen is in the side as much for his bowling as his batting but no matter. He's currently a long way from cutting the mustard on either front. He can't expect to keep his place indefinitely - not least, there's all the points I'm losing in LD's competition to consider! Wink

At least on paper, Moeen brings balance to the side although I accept that counts for very little if he's failing to deliver on grass. The issue, however, is that we have no remotely comparable player on this tour to bring in. Any replacement will immediately weaken the look of the batting (eg Crane), leave us a bowler short (eg Ballance) or give us a fifth seamer as a spare part and also weaken the batting (eg Ball).

Not for the first time, I do think Dawson should have been in the party as cover. I like the look of Crane a lot but have always felt that if he was going to play a Test on this tour it would have been as a foil to Moeen on a spinner's track (unlikely I know) rather than as his replacement.

The other person reflecting now on how things seem to be going for Moeen might be Olly's one time golden boy Ansari. If not for his own reasons in chucking in the towel, he might still have had a Test future.






Ali s not contributing with the bat anyway so negates the point losing that element. Ali is taken up a spot in the side for what? Batting - no as he is acwalkingvwicket to Lyon. Bowling - no as his figures clearly show. Keeping him in the sidevis doingcthe team no favours and doing him no favours either as his confidence is kust being driven into the dust with his sub-par performances.

Sure Crane or Leech most probably are not ready but at least giving them the chance their potential can be judged. And in any case in his present mindset neither is Ali ready.

Tomorrow is his chance to convince me otherwise with the bat but I don't hold out high hopes.

I don't think we're much apart about the lack of his current contribution. However, I'm more cautious about a ready replacement and fear the wrong one could make things worse as I tried to show with the different examples in my last post.

I'm also very uncomfortable about awarding a Test place to judge potential. A player needs to be knocking loudly on the door through his own efforts before he gets a call up to my Test team. Wink Leech is a long way off that for me and Crane is probably not yet near enough unless he's doing wonders in the nets.

A chance given too soon could also hinder the player's and England's future opportunities. Like Alfie mentioned recently, I too remember the havoc wreaked upon Kerrigan from which he has never properly recovered.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 8:49 pm

Equally, it is just as wrong thst a player is guaranteed a place when not contributing.
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 9:02 pm

I'm not aware of anyone guaranteeing Moeen a place or saying he should be.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 9:08 pm

guildfordbat wrote:I'm not aware of anyone guaranteeing Moeen a place or saying he should be.

No not you. I am talking selectors here as I think we all realize Ali will not be dropped. There is something seriously wrong if a player is not contributing to the side but keeps his place on the grounds that there is nobody else deemed good enough to replace him. As KP Fan said why bother bringing Crane etc along if they won't even be used to replace a player so woefully out of form.

If players are in the squad surely it means they are worthy of selection?
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by jimbohammers on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 9:26 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
jimbohammers wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Another good day for Australia. Shame Smith couldn't bat to 300.

I remember reading this board a while back and im sure you was an England fan, Duty? Headscratch

Hi Jimbo - yes, but Duty has money riding on a triple ton in the series! Smile

What a cracker of a ball today to get your man Vince! He was right out of luck there. Felt if it had rained soup at the WACA, he would have been been the one holding a knife and fork! Wink

Ah, fair enough then duty! Good effort with the bet!

Guildford, he played really really well and looked in control, just his luck to get a ball like that!

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Pal Joey on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 9:42 pm

Hopefully the heavier showers will be easing by around midday and there should be less chance of rain during the afternoon.

http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDR703.loop.shtml

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 10:20 pm

I also think Rashid has been rather cast aside, somewhat arrogantly too. Seems to me like the selectors didn’t even consider the possibility of an underperforming Ali, and taking someone on potential and the chance to learn really isn’t a great idea in a series you really weren’t expected to win.

Could Rashid have allowed Ali to not play when he was injured? Could Rashid cover for Ali now and probably outperform him? All yes, so another poor decision. I can excuse some of the follies of the bowling choices (every f***er got injured) but this one is baffling.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 10:22 pm

Also, not slightly questioning Anderson in this series, he’s still been easily our best bowler.

In fact, he’s the only one I wouldn’t question. And someone should be doing a hell of a lot to make sure we don’t see Broad and Anderson gone in a year and go into series with someone as middle of the road as Woakes as our leading light

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 10:28 pm

The Loaded Dog wrote:Hopefully the heavier showers will be easing by around midday and there should be less chance of rain during the afternoon.

http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDR703.loop.shtml

Hi LD - what's your best guess? Lose all session one but mainly ok for the rest of the day?

Harsh on Australia if that turns out to be the case but could end up injecting some excitement late on.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Pal Joey on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 11:21 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
The Loaded Dog wrote:Hopefully the heavier showers will be easing by around midday and there should be less chance of rain during the afternoon.

http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDR703.loop.shtml

Hi LD - what's your best guess? Lose all session one but mainly ok for the rest of the day?

Harsh on Australia if that turns out to be the case but could end up injecting some excitement late on.

Good morning Guldford,
It seems as though there might be some delay at the start but based on the BoM's data the rain squalls are moving quite quickly as we saw yesterday. It's all a bit of hit or miss for the WACA... especially around the time play is supposed to start, however it looks as though there might be more lengthy periods of sunshine in the afternoon. It can get hot and dry out very quickly in a relatively short space of time.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by alfie on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 11:32 pm

Would be a travesty if rain saved England - though it would keep the Melbourne Test "alive" .

Would prefer to see Malan and Bairstow bat all day though I guess that is asking a bit much Smile

Even if there is a lot of rain Australia will know that once Malan gets out they are only 45 minutes from finishing the innings...

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Duty281 on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 11:42 pm

It would of course be long-awaited revenge for Old Trafford 2005 hugely unjust if Australia were denied owing to the weather.

Forecast isn't good; rain radar also not good.

http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDR703.loop.shtml#skip

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by alfie on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 11:47 pm

Just on the selection issues : Moeen has had a dreadful time , true. (I do think his injury pre-warm ups has contributed , but anyway). However given his past record he probably had enough "credit" in the bank to get him to this match in any case so it is a bit much to go on as if he should have been axed for Crane/Rashid/Leach/Anyone after Brisbane.

As I've said before , Dawson should have been here as backup and quite possibly played from the start given Moeen's injury worries.
But he wasn't ; so the alternatives were (as guildford pointed out above) pretty unlikely to be useful.

Now , with the series lost (barring miracles) there is the question of what is least worst in terms of player development/player destruction as well as team strength - they still need to try with everything they have to at least salvage a consolation win : I suspect Crane may end up playing but cannot make a judgement as to whether this will be a good thing or not as I have no insight into his mental state (or Moeen's !) Hopefully the coaching staff have a good handle on it.

By the way , Malan looks as if he can actually bowl a bit.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Pal Joey on Sun 17 Dec 2017, 11:48 pm

I just posted that, Duty. Smile

The 24 hour (previous) one looks pretty bad but the actual totals of rainfall is not that much. It seems the heavier showers are more to the south of Perth but who knows what is coming in off the Indian Ocean south-west of the cape.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Duty281 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 12:12 am

Ah yes you did!

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by No name Bertie on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 12:31 am

It seems to me that in sport there is a loss of the concept of losing gracefully, putting your hand up in recognition of your sporting betters (on the day, with respect to the conditions).  What is needed in losing gracefully is losing while fighting and while grafting.  With regard to selection and training - it is not just a question of selecting for the best individual players, it is a question of choosing the best team for the conditions.  Players should be in form and healthy.  In terms of the conditions - if they need a superfast bowler - they should pick the best superfast bowler available or the most promising superfast bowler.  Same for when it comes to the spinners.  Even if they are not "good enough" we should still pick the best available and just hold the hand up and say that is the best we have got.

I just find the acrimony and recriminations that goes with losing in sport just a little excessive.  With the professionalization and commercialisation of sport and its link with journalism and broadcasting, I think the "importance" of sport becomes over inflated into something like life and death, or over inflated in terms of "national prestige" or "national humiliation".

Anyway I hope to see the English batsmen trying to save the match today - which means battling for the draw.  There is no need to feel score board pressure and to take unnecessary risks in trying to push along the scoring.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Duty281 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 1:47 am

Water on the wicket due to some sub-standard covers.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 1:49 am

Covers are coming off so it should be a prompt start. I would expect there to be at least one stop due to rain today but.not enough to wash out a day.
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Duty281 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 1:57 am

The pitch is buggered.

So is Mitchell Starc's heel.

Could be a similar ending to Headingley 1975, though not as malicious!

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/17192/scorecard/63148/england-vs-australia-3rd-test-australia-tour-of-england-1975/

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Duty281 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 2:17 am

BBC: Umpire Chris Gaffeney says that the pitch has to be the same for both sides and "at this stage we believe the pitch has been altered overnight."

The four umpires are down at the wicket with Steve Smith right now.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Pal Joey on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 3:36 am

Sounds like a hair salon with all those driers at work.

The umpires are probably having their toe nails clipped and massaged... as per ICC safety rules.

Just get on with it!

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Duty281 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 3:46 am

Starting in 15 minutes apparently.

Presuming no rain, they'll play for an hour then take a 40 minute break...because cricket logic.

EDIT: Scratch that. Play starting at 04:40 GMT. Early lunch.

Starting soon! 70 overs left. Surely too many for England to prevent a series defeat? They’ll need more rain.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Duty281 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 5:03 am

No-ball for height!

Are you watching, Olly? Wink

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Duty281 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 5:06 am

Bairstow out to the first ball he faced today.

Ball kept low. This won’t take long.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 6:05 am

Malan has really impressed me. Up to 44 not out in extreme circumstances and seems very calm and unruffled and top England svorer on the tour. Safe to say he has cemented a place in the side for the summer at least.
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Duty281 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 6:09 am

Ball not misbehaving as much as I thought it would.

These two digging in, but so long left in the game.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Duty281 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 6:13 am

And Lyon gets Ali again.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Duty281 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 6:29 am

Malan has made another 50. He’ll be one England player who has his reputation enhanced after this series.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Duty281 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 6:55 am

Ah Malan goes. Gloved one down the leg side. Not the best.

That should be the series. An injured Overton, Broad, Woakes and Anderson are hardly going to keep this Aussie attack at bay for a few hours...it’s not 2009!

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by alfie on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 6:57 am

Malan has indeed done really well ...but of course he has gone now : once again through his own error rather than being beaten. Can't blame him for trying to hook that - they need to score runs as well as eat up overs.

Don't think it will take long now - usually once Malan goes the innings folds up in forty minutes tops Smile

I'd have loved to see him make another hundred and save the day but there aren't any fairy tales happening this tour.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

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