The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

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The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Pal Joey on Wed 13 Dec 2017, 7:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

3rd Test Perth, December 14-18, 2017

Australia:
Bancroft, Warner, Khawaja, Smith *, S Marsh, M Marsh, Paine †, Starc, Cummins, Lyon, Hazelwood

England:
Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root *, Malan, Bairstow †, Ali, Woakes, Overton, Broad, Anderson

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Duty281 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 6:59 am

Going from 360/4 to an (probable) innings defeat is almost a work of art

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by LivinginItaly on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 7:09 am

I don't know if it is just me, but Malan reminds me a lot of Graham Thorpe. Not necessarily in his style of batting, but the way he seems to sell his wicket highly and bat with a sense of calm when all the others are losing their heads. Trying to desperately find something positive from this tour....but Malan cementing his place at 5 on this tour could be a real positive point.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by alfie on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 7:22 am

When you look at how long Malan was able to withstand the attack on this fifth day pitch hard not to think that a draw was salvageable (certainly with the weather interruptions) had either of the old hands managed to get set and play an innings.
Cook is just in the horrors at present (whether or not it is terminal we will see by and by) but Root will - should - be furious with himself for his daft chasing of a wide ball before he'd even got started.

Cannot begrudge Australia their win as they have consistently played the better cricket...actually "played the better cricket more consistently " is probably the correct way of putting it : England have had periods of success with bat and ball but simply haven't put sessions together.
However I am disappointed that we are looking at two "dead" matches as I still don't think there is any huge difference in class between the sides . Yes the home side has the more suitable attack for the conditions - home sides generally do ; and they were probably always likely winners . But I reckon they've played close to their best - especially the "fringe" players , Paine , Marsh x2 ...while several of England's usually most reliable have not fired a shot. The avalanche
effect will probably mean this does end up 5-0 now ; though I still harbour hopes England will get it together in Melbourne and show (too late ) what they can do .

Nine down now and the celebrations are imminent...

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by alfie on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 7:48 am

Duty281 wrote:Going from 360/4 to an (probable) innings defeat is almost a work of art

Yes. Still can't get my head around losing 6/35 on this pitch : if it had happened on the first day you'd say yes , lot of pace and bounce , etc etc ...but days two and three there really wasn't a lot there for the bowlers.

They left 100 runs out there , I think. And Smith and Marsh made damn sure they paid for it...

Similar to some of those Tests on the Indian tour in its pattern. Team just doesn't seem to be able to play for time these days so they are always going to be at risk on flat pitches. It can be exhilarating watching them score rapidly - sometimes even on quite lively decks - but the lack of ability to modify their games to suit different conditions is going to continue to cost them against good opposition in situations where 400 is sub- par.

And there it is ! Woakes nudges behind and 218 all out...emphatic victory for the home side clap

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by No name Bertie on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 7:55 am

Congratulations to the Australian team for winning the Ashes clap

What can the English team do differently for the next two tests - maybe the batsmen can focus on staying in as long as possible and avoiding risky shots?

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by alfie on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 8:01 am

If the Dog is online I offer my congratulations ...your boys have done the job brilliantly thumbsup

I am just regretful that the MCG match will now be something of a victory lap rather than the charged event it used to be when it was the Second Test - before the TV station insisted on getting the Tests out of the way so January could be devoted to the short form game...

I get why they do it this way. But it does seem a pity that the two biggest grounds rarely see a deciding match these days. And all too often not even a live one.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 8:04 am

Duty281 wrote:Going from 360/4 to an (probable) innings defeat is almost a work of art

England overseas tours will always produce the greatest comedy cricket of modern times
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Pal Joey on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 8:14 am

Cheers alfie & no name. Smile Commiserations to you guys.

It's a bit of a relief in the end. The rain interruptions were sort of nerve wracking on this last day but I'm so glad that it finished well for us with Hazelwood and Cummins getting the job done.

Just heard Joe say there shouldn't be too many knee jerk reactions. I think there is the basis for a good England team; just that you had a rotten run of luck with injuries and this made it nigh on impossible to sustain the pressure on Oz for long enough to change the course of all three matches thus far. The loss of Stokes makes a really big hole in terms of overall capability of the team as a whole but they still did pretty well and gave it their best.

I hope the next two matches are good contests... there are still some things to prove for both sides and it should be interesting to see how it ultimately unfolds.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 8:18 am

The Loaded Dog wrote:Cheers alfie & no name. Smile Commiserations to you guys.

It's a bit of a relief in the end. The rain interruptions were sort of nerve wracking on this last day but I'm so glad that it finished well for us with Hazelwood and Cummins getting the job done.

Just heard Joe say there shouldn't be too many knee jerk reactions. I think there is the basis for a good England team; just that you had a rotten run of luck with injuries and this made it nigh on impossible to sustain the pressure on Oz for long enough to change the course of all three matches thus far. The loss of Stokes makes a really big hole in terms of overall capability of the team as a whole but they still did pretty well and gave it their best.

I hope the next two matches are good contests... there are still some things to prove for both sides and it should be interesting to see how it ultimately unfolds.

Congrats Dog - as you say, I think there is the basis for a good England team too, but to win overseas (especially in Australia), you need everything (injuries and luck) to break your way, and ultimately England have had little to no luck ever since Stokes/Hales infamous night out in Bristol...
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by compelling and rich on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 8:23 am

alfie wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Going from 360/4 to an (probable) innings defeat is almost a work of art

Yes.  Still can't get my head around losing 6/35 on this pitch : if it had happened on the first day you'd say yes , lot of pace and bounce , etc etc ...but days two and three there really wasn't a lot there for the bowlers.

They left 100 runs out there , I think. And Smith and Marsh made damn sure they paid for it...

Similar to some of those Tests on the Indian tour in its pattern.  Team just doesn't seem to be able to play for time these days so they are always going to be at risk on flat pitches.  It can be exhilarating watching them score rapidly - sometimes even on quite lively decks - but the lack of ability to modify their games to suit different conditions is going to continue to cost them against good opposition in situations where 400 is sub- par.

And there it is !  Woakes nudges behind and 218 all out...emphatic victory for the home side clap

those 100 runs and the time it would have took would have been the difference between a draw and the lost

would have been nice to have something riding on the boxing day test

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 8:35 am

Many congratulations to Australia on regaining the Ashes and.Loaded Dog.

It has been a comprehensive win with Australia being better prepared and the better side in every department. They have played as a team with every player contributing at one time or another whereas England have had one or two fleeting moments and sporadic cameo performances from the odd player.

All England have left to play for is pride and perhaps their continued place in the side. Only Malan has really done himself proud and Stoneman and Vince have hadctheir moments as have Bairstow, Anderson and Overton. The rest have been very disappointing.
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 8:39 am

LD - congratulations from me as well. Your guys have played extremely well and consistently so. Smith has captained most capably and, unless you hold this against him, especially considering he has lost all three tosses. Surprisingly effective calls by your selectors as well.

PS Boycott on BT Sport lambasting the English county set up and its adverse impact on the national Test side which goes above the braindead Matt Smith. Boycs chose to ignore that we do more than hold our own at home but he was still making valid points before having to make way for some 'banter' from Swann.


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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 8:43 am

As an.outsider guildford bat questions should be asked of why no class opener can be developed, no real quality spinner and shortage of real quality fast pace bowlers.
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by compelling and rich on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 8:45 am

not actually minded boycott this series, certainly the best of the English commentators. the only other decent ones have been the aussies

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by LivinginItaly on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 8:52 am

boycott for all his show and posturing does normally have some good insightful opinions.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by alfie on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 8:56 am

The Loaded Dog wrote:Cheers alfie & no name. Smile Commiserations to you guys.

It's a bit of a relief in the end. The rain interruptions were sort of nerve wracking on this last day but I'm so glad that it finished well for us with Hazelwood and Cummins getting the job done.

Just heard Joe say there shouldn't be too many knee jerk reactions. I think there is the basis for a good England team; just that you had a rotten run of luck with injuries and this made it nigh on impossible to sustain the pressure on Oz for long enough to change the course of all three matches thus far. The loss of Stokes makes a really big hole in terms of overall capability of the team as a whole but they still did pretty well and gave it their best.

I hope the next two matches are good contests... there are still some things to prove for both sides and it should be interesting to see how it ultimately unfolds.

Thanks for the kind words , LD. I also hope for good contests - and perhaps for the full five days rather than the 2 or 3 that have been competitive in these matches...as you say , it is about sustaining the pressure.

And I hope the England management heeds Root's request for avoiding knee jerking...although I am sure the ever helpful British media will be screaming for public executions Smile

Smith and his boys can celebrate. They may still have things to prove away from home ; and I do suspect the batting order will change a bit over the next couple of years despite the success they've enjoyed these last few weeks ; but I think they've bounced back pretty well from getting done over by a moderate SA team last year. Keep all those bowlers fit and they'll be a handful most places...

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Pal Joey on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 9:00 am

Cheers Olly, Craig & Guildford... I know how you guys feel but I'm sure England will improve with perhaps some minor changes to the core of a good side for the next matches - so keep the faith. OK

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 9:01 am

Oh, Geoffrey! I probably like you more than anyone else here but having done an entirely valid comparison between the relative successes and failings of Lyon and Moeen, you end up saying, ''My mom could play Moeen!''. Rolling Eyes

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 9:03 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:As an.outsider guildford bat questions should be asked of why no class opener can be developed, no real quality spinner and shortage of real quality fast pace bowlers.

Problem is England are never going to produce an abundance of quality spinners, unless the ECB can suddenly change the ecosystem of England to reflect that of the subcontinent. You'll get the odd really good one come along once every 10/15 years, but the conditions just aren't suited to producing spin bowlers, and never will be (no matter what the ECB do with changing the toss/schedule).

As said earlier, the pace bowler thing is for me, purely Loughborough's fault. This centre was setup to produce bowlers, whereas all it seems to have done is wreck them. That really needs to be looked at as a system for producing players imo
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 9:06 am

guildfordbat wrote:Oh, Geoffrey! I probably like you more than anyone else here but having done an entirely valid comparison between the relative successes and failings of Lyon and Moeen, you end up saying, ''My mom could play Moeen!''. Rolling Eyes

And this is why, for me, he'll always be a buffoon...did he say something about rhubarb too? Rolling Eyes

In amongst all the doom and gloom, it should be remembered the last time the Aussies won an away Ashes series was 2001. It's become a completely home side dominated series...
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by LivinginItaly on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 9:08 am

well the team does seem to be in a bit of a mess at the moment. Team for the first test of the summer

Cook???
Stoneman?
???
Root
Malan
Stokes??
Bairstow
Woakes?
Ali?
Broad?
Anderson?

I make that only three definites. Cook, Anderson and broad depend on their desire and fitness (Broad doesn't look right)
Stokes, who knows what will happen.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Galted on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 9:09 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Going from 360/4 to an (probable) innings defeat is almost a work of art

England overseas tours will always produce the greatest comedy cricket of modern times

England tours fall more into the category of comedy-drama, for out-and-out comedy a SA WC semi-final can't be beaten.
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by LivinginItaly on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 9:37 am

well the team does seem to be in a bit of a mess at the moment. Team for the first test of the summer

Cook???
Stoneman?
???
Root
Malan
Stokes??
Bairstow
Woakes?
Ali?
Broad?
Anderson?

I make that only three definites. Cook, Anderson and broad depend on their desire and fitness (Broad doesn't look right)
Stokes, who knows what will happen.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by alfie on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 9:49 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:As an.outsider guildford bat questions should be asked of why no class opener can be developed, no real quality spinner and shortage of real quality fast pace bowlers.

Craig I share your frustration but should point out that these players of "real quality" in particular roles do not grow on trees...

It is indeed a long time since a new class opener emerged - Strauss and then Cook followed Trescothick reasonably quickly so the recent hiatus does seem a bit of an anomaly. We can argue about Stoneman and hope Hameed comes back : perhaps the northern summer will see one of them make a real mark ?o

Quality spinners are fairly rare outside the subcontinent : Australia have Lyon now ; but how long had they been agonizing over replacing Warne ?  Swann has only been gone four years ...

As to pace bowlers : Anderson and Broad might not bowl at 90 plus these days but they are still damn good bowlers (though Broad seems strangely off at the moment ) : ideally they'd be partnered with a fit Wood and Stokes and you'd probably not be as concerned about the lack of an express merchant - handy as that always is in Australia. In truth for every time England have triumphed over here with a Snow or a Willis there has also
been a heavy defeat despite possession of , say , a Harmison ...and the last two series wins (years apart !) have been achieved without anyone of exceptional speed  : not that it wouldn't be nice to have one !  
The two old stagers won't last forever and right now there is a fairly open field of potential new pace bowlers setting up to succeed them : selection must be based on quality not just pace but it may well be that a seriously rapid one emerges at the top over the next year or two - fast bowlers can arrive quickly.  

There is an argument that the ECB should go out of their way to flatten pitches to force more emphasis on outright speed over seam and swing : I am not convinced. Why throw away any home advantage when other teams tour ? Doesn't matter what you do ; climate differences will always ensure India and Australia will have an advantage playing in their own conditions : making English pitches all bland will just mean they don't face a corresponding challenge when they arrive for the return series. Sending young players for a season in Australia makes more sense to me...

I actually think the spinner would make the biggest change - in any conditions ; because you aren't likely to beat India or Pakistan away without serious spin options - and the difference between Lyon and the out of sorts Moeen on this trip was arguably a bigger factor in the first two matches than the extra pace of the Australian
battery .  Really hope someone comes through out of Crane , Rashid , Leach , Bess or anyone else not yet being talked up ...

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by jimbohammers on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 10:06 am

Congrats LD and the Aussies.

We've lost the ashes so what do we do now for the Melbourne test? Stick with what we've got or give a couple of new guys a go? Id like to see Curran and Crane get a game personally

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Pal Joey on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 10:15 am

Cheers jimbo. OK

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 10:17 am

jimbohammers wrote:Congrats LD and the Aussies.

We've lost the ashes so what do we do now for the Melbourne test? Stick with what we've got or give a couple of new guys a go? Id like to see Curran and Crane get a game personally

I would expect barring injury we will see an unchanged side for Melbourne...but with changes in Sydney. I'd like to see Curran/Crane given a go too, and Foakes if you can work the batting order to allow it.
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by alfie on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 10:20 am

LivinginItaly wrote:well the team does seem to be in a bit of a mess at the moment.  Team for the first test of the summer

Cook???
Stoneman?
???
Root
Malan
Stokes??
Bairstow
Woakes?
Ali ?
Broad?
Anderson?

I make that only three definites. Cook, Anderson and broad depend on their desire and fitness (Broad doesn't look right)
Stokes, who knows what will happen.

Probably a little early to pick the team for the northern summer : two more Tests here and NZ tour following.

I'd be astonished if Anderson doesn't continue : he's come off a terrific home season and although even by his own admission he hasn't always got it right on this trip he still has 12 wickets at 25 (compare the excellent Cummins with 11 at 30 ) I doubt he'll want to go out on a sour note and he is still clearly England's best.
Cook who knows ? Young enough to sort out his issues and go on but I think the desire is the important thing in his case. He has been doing it for a long time - well 150 Tests ! It may be that giving up the captaincy hasn't immediately helped him - some players may actually find that having to just play for themselves , as it were , doesn't have quite the same buzz. As I say : young enough - I think he will chew it over while the young 'uns are playing white ball stuff and - hopefully , because I think he's still needed - decide to carry on. Score or two in these remaining Tests wouldn't hurt ...perhaps he just needs a bit of luck early in an innings and he will be back in the groove...
Stokes has to satisfy the police and the ECB first ...and then he might have a bit to make up to his teammates after leaving them in the lurch through his stupidity. Presume he'll be back but he faces a challenge to return to his best at the same time as he restores his reputation with the wider public.

Broad ? Not sure what is wrong with him. Just lost his rhythm ? Can happen : or if he's got a niggle might pay to miss Melbourne and work with the bowling coach. Hope he's not lost it as he is a match winner when he is on song.

But all this will be the subject of vigorous debate over the coming months - just as well as we have to have something to argue about when they aren't actually in the middle of matches...

Nothing like a heavy series defeat to get the selection wars going Smile

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by alfie on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 10:23 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
jimbohammers wrote:Congrats LD and the Aussies.

We've lost the ashes so what do we do now for the Melbourne test? Stick with what we've got or give a couple of new guys a go? Id like to see Curran and Crane get a game personally

I would expect barring injury we will see an unchanged side for Melbourne...but with changes in Sydney. I'd like to see Curran/Crane given a go too, and Foakes if you can work the batting order to allow it.

Reckon Overton will miss with that injury , surely ? Pity as he's been promising but no sense killing him. He will surely play in NZ. And although I am nervous about it I wonder if Crane might replace Moeen who seems seriously out of form with bat and ball...

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by kingraf on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 10:32 am

Well that was thorough. England have a general problem in Australia now. In all lost Ashes aways eries since 1998, they've lost
3-1
4-1
5-0
5-0
3-0*

2010-11 is beginning to look more an aberration by the day. Especially considering Tim Bresnan was rolling through Australia back then.


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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 10:35 am

LivinginItaly wrote:well the team does seem to be in a bit of a mess at the moment.  Team for the first test of the summer

Cook???
Stoneman?
???
Root
Malan
Stokes??
Bairstow
Woakes?
Ali?
Broad?
Anderson?

I make that only three definites. Cook, Anderson and broad depend on their desire and fitness (Broad doesn't look right)
Stokes, who knows what will happen.

As Alfie has said, still a lot of cricket to go before we get to the English summer.

Personally - I'd be surprised if Cook/Anderson retired. Cook for me, is just going through one of the many spells he's had throughout his career, where he is just out of nick. He had a good summer this past year, and I'm sure he realises his form will come back soon. Playing on a few benign pitches in NZ might help him...
Anderson will carry on. He's historically never done great in Australia, but he was magnificent at home this year - the only thing that will stop him is his body. And who can predict that!

I think guys like Vince/Stoneman have done just well enough to earn first go on the NZ tour. They've certainly outperformed their more senior counterparts, so it would seem slightly hypocritical to drop both.

Moeen needs to regain the form he had this summer - the disrupted preperation, and injury certainly haven't helped him this series. He's still our best option for the spinner slot at the moment for my money. He did just have the best series an English all rounder has had bar Botham in 1981 against SA this summer...

Woakes is competing with Overton/Wood/TRJ now. He had a chance to solidify that 3rd seamer slot but hasn't done it. I expect TRJ will come back into the side when fit again, seeing as he ultimately lost his spot to injury.

Stokes is just a complete unknown. We're still so far away from knowing the outcome from the police, let alone the outcome of the ECB investigation.
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by LivinginItaly on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 10:45 am

alfie wrote:
LivinginItaly wrote:well the team does seem to be in a bit of a mess at the moment.  Team for the first test of the summer

Cook???
Stoneman?
???
Root
Malan
Stokes??
Bairstow
Woakes?
Ali ?
Broad?
Anderson?

I make that only three definites. Cook, Anderson and broad depend on their desire and fitness (Broad doesn't look right)
Stokes, who knows what will happen.

Probably a little early to pick the team for the northern summer : two more Tests here and NZ tour following.

I'd be astonished if Anderson doesn't continue : he's come off a terrific home season and although even by his own admission he hasn't always got it right on this trip he still has 12 wickets at 25 (compare the excellent Cummins with 11 at 30 )  I doubt he'll want to go out on a sour note and he is still clearly England's best.
Cook who knows ?  Young enough to sort out his issues and go on but I think the desire is the important thing in his case.  He has been doing it for a long time - well 150 Tests !   It may be that giving up the captaincy hasn't immediately helped him - some players may actually find that having to just play for themselves , as it were , doesn't have quite the same buzz.  As I say : young enough - I think he will chew it over while the young 'uns are playing white ball stuff and - hopefully , because I think he's still needed - decide to carry on.  Score or two in these remaining Tests wouldn't hurt ...perhaps he just needs a bit of luck early in an innings and he will be back in the groove...
Stokes has to satisfy the police and the ECB first ...and then he might have a bit to make up to his teammates after leaving them in the lurch through his stupidity.  Presume he'll be back but he faces a challenge to return to his best at the same time as he restores his reputation with the wider public.

Broad ?  Not sure what is wrong with him.  Just lost his rhythm ? Can happen : or if he's got a niggle might pay to miss Melbourne and work with the bowling coach.  Hope he's not lost it as he is a match winner when he is on song.

But all this will be the subject of vigorous debate over the coming months - just as well as we have to have something to argue about when they aren't actually in the middle of matches...

Nothing like a heavy series defeat to get the selection wars going Smile

True, it is too early to think about the summer, and to be honest I had forgotten about the tour to new Zealand. I guess what I was trying to say was that I can't remember a time when the team had so many potential question marks over so many positions. Also i have a sneaking suspicion that a whitewash help a few senior players decide to call it a day, rather like the last ashes series down under.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 10:56 am

Moeen Ali simply Isn't Test standard. Period. It's all good hiding at 8 and slogging a few in home conditions. Followed up by stealing a few cheap wickets when the visiting batsmen chance their luck against his bowling, as in home conditions it's mighty difficult to smash our seamers around.

Moeen Ali is a luxury when there's a boy called Ben Stokes in the XI. All this tosh that Moeen turned a corner with his bowling against South Africa are way wide off the mark. The South Africans where ripped to shreds by Ashwin and Jadeja, Moeen merely feasted on the mental disintegration the Indians caused.

As for Cook, in 7 Ashes series, only came to the party in 2010-11, when in all honesty he was facing a mediocre Australian attack - Bollinger, Beer, Doherty not exactly stand out. In the 6 other Ashes series Cook's averaged mid 20s 4 time, mid 30s once and in the teens in the current series. Probably confirming 2010-11 was an anomaly.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by alfie on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 10:59 am

The senior players that called it a day last time actually did so halfway through the tour though so hardly as a reaction to the the whitewash...

Except for KP ; and he didn't jump ...but was pushed ; thereby generating several million posts here and elsewhere Smile

...still going on in some places. Please lord let there be no such saga this time around...

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by alfie on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 11:08 am

kingraf wrote:Well that was thorough. England have a general problem in Australia now. In all lost Ashes aways eries since 1998, they've lost
3-1
4-1
5-0
5-0
3-0*

2010-11 is beginning to look more an aberration by the day. Especially considering Tim Bresnan was rolling through Australia back then.



Hey , kingraf ...not been on much lately ?

You're right they've lost heavily a few times now. Truth is everyone does in Australia - except your mob ; who seem to do better there than at home...
If the England record seems to stand out - not in a good way - it is perhaps because everyone else plays only two or three Tests not five ; doesn't always start at the dreaded Gabba ; and seem to be used by the Aussies to develop their team so that it's just ready in time to bash up the poor old Poms Smile

Tough place to play , Australia. Once you start badly it is hard to recover , especially in these days of no proper matches outside the Tests. And unlike in England or SA there is rarely any relief from a weather affected draw.



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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 11:15 am

As regards England developing spinners, the ECB and the counties have made that much more difficult by reducing the amount of County Championship (4 day) games played and putting more of the games that do remain in April and September. Conditions then are typically unhelpful to spinners and you even had the situation early last season of Crane - a young bowler who needs to bowl to get better - not being picked by Hampshire, his county side.

More generally, the ECB and similar bodies for other Test countries need to address how tightly compressed every Test series is these days. Boycott - for all his talk of sticks of rhubarb and his mom - was bang on the money earlier today when he said that what would benefit us more than anything before the next Test is a proper game against a reasonably decent Shield side. A chance to correct things and find some form away from the glare and intensity of a Test match. The current schedules just do not allow for that and so once you are rolled over, it is very difficult to get back up. Ultimately that doesn't help anyone.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Pal Joey on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 12:22 pm

Definitely would be better for England to play proper Shield sides and also more of the players actually spending a summer or two here playing for good club sides and getting comfortable with conditions. Why not send along a few young spinners too?

Similarly when Australia go on tour to England there should be proper County warm up games. I'd like to see at least 3 or 4...maybe even more.
I know it would make the tours for both teams a bit longer but it would ultimately benefit both and provide a better build up to the 1st Tests.

Not going so far as the '48 Invincibles who played what? 37? matches or whatever but not too few matches either against mickey mouse XIs.
Add in a few invitation XI matches as they do... but make it about 11 or 12 matches instead of 8 or 9 including Test matches, then the 8 or so ODIs and T20s that follow.

Much more interesting for us to watch too whilst the teams trial certain players at different venues.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by wisden on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 12:41 pm

For an Ashes tour IMO this should be the Itinerary

Game 1: An Invitational XI
Game 2: Shield/County side
Game 3: Shield/ County side
Game 4: 1st Test
Game 5: 2nd test
Game 6: Shield/County side
Game 7: 3rd test
Game 8: 4th test
Game 9: 5th Test

Game 10: Invitational one day side
Game 11-16: 5 odi's

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by kingraf on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 1:09 pm

Hey Alfie - The site is generally more quiet nowadays, so I don't frequent as much.

Yes, noted on the difficulties of touring Australia (as you mentioned, we generally do well there post isolation. Two series wins and a series draw, to go with a very narrow 1-0 loss - One Mark Waugh innings and 10 dropped catches away from turning that into a draw). My point was more a response to the notion that these are new problems for England. With the exception of 2010, it's really been one way for a while. And people can mention a lack of pace, but 1998-2003, it was McGrath and Gillespie. 2006, Stuart Clark ran the English ragged. 2013-14 Harris and Siddle did some of the lifting. This Aussie attack is probably the first time Australia has properly gone and found 3 6'5 90mph behemoths and cast them into the world.

I don't think England batted too badly. They've not been great, but I think the real issues have been with the ball (and maybe the field - captaincy). First Test they should have taken advantage of their start with the ball. Second Test, I thought they did the right thing bowling first, but then they concede 300 in a D/N, which hadn't been done in the first inning in Adelaide (caveat: sample size). Finally, here they managed to concede 660, letting Mitchell Marsh, statistically the worst #6 of all time, score a completely untroubled double ton. Following that, they then managed to concede an extra 100-odd to to the tail, despite having a new ball available.
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by kingraf on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 1:11 pm

Regardless, congratulations to the Aussies, and for the second time in four years, it appears they'll be facing us in two months with the wind in their sails as you've managed to provide the resistance of an alcoholic at a brewery
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Duty281 on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 1:21 pm

Duty281 wrote:This game, however, is a foregone conclusion before we even start. And you can still get 8/13 on Australia to win this test match; which is almost as generous as the 4/7 initially available on the hosts winning the series. Staggering, splendid, stupefying stuff.

And there we have it. Well done Australia. Easy to pinpoint when Australia won this game, and full credit to their bowling attack for their efforts.

As I mentioned the other day, there has only been one away Ashes series win since the start of 2002, so this result is the norm.

Only pride to play for now. 3-2 looks a hell of a lot different to 5-0, but I know which of those is more likely...!

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 1:25 pm

Its not just Austrlia though is it. Englands away record has been pitiful for several years now. India was a disaster, and Bangladesh embaressing.
Even at home they havent been invincible, they lost a test to a pitiful West Indies side. They did well against SA, but it wasnt the same level of dominance at home that sides have had over them at their homes. The previous summer Pakistan managed to come and draw a series. The summer before that they drew with NZ and the West Indies then won a very close ashes series against a poor Australian side with the likes of Agar playing.

The away win in SA seems an awfuly long time ago now ( and with 5 of the top 6 not on this tour)... and that winter also saw a whitewash against Pakistan.


For a team that aspires to be number one in the world they just arent that good. Its not just that they cant travel. They dont have a good 2 or a 3, they dont have a good spinner and they dont have a genuine fast bowler.
With the senior players struggling for form (bar Anderson) they really look very ordinary indeed.

When tehy won away in Aus that was sandwiched in the middle of a 2 year run of winning every series except a 1-1 draw in SA. The home Ashes ahd been won more more convincingly than the most recent one. They were a good side then.

Theres no question that the county game plays some part in this. Its not strong or comeptitive enough. Players are more readily employed for their limited overs skills; and will inevtiably want to develope these for the greater opporotunities those forms afford.
The pitches and timings dont encourage fast bowlers or proper spinners. As a consequewnce not only are we failing to devleope them but also players arent used to facing them. They encourage batsmen to play with a big stride to take seam movement out of the equation, but this means they are ill equiped to deal with full length balls...weve seen the Aussies use these with great effect.

I dont know how much control they have over the tour schedules an opposition. The same limitations apply to sides that come over to England, and we havent been rolling them over as easily and we have been rolled over away from home.


Englands success at home isnt as dominant as it should be, and their away performances have slipped back to awful. At a time when India are a class ahead of everyone and England havent faced them for a while I think we have to collectively accept that England  really just arent very good at tests currently. Being away from home isnt esxcuse enough for how bad results have been.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by superflyweight on Mon 18 Dec 2017, 3:55 pm

wisden wrote:For an Ashes tour IMO this should be the Itinerary

Game 1: An Invitational XI
Game 2: Shield/County side
Game 3: Shield/ County side
Game 4: 1st Test
Game 5: 2nd test
Game 6: Shield/County side
Game 7: 3rd test
Game 8: 4th test
Game 9: 5th Test

Game 10: Invitational one day side
Game 11-16: 5 odi's

Yeah, but how are players going to "look great in the nets" if they've got all those games to play?

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 7:54 am

Youre also relying on the hosts to turn up with quality opposition. How often do sides toruing England actually face full country sides? Never ...the England players arent the only ones missing usually.

I do agree that lack of experience in the conditions palys a big part in why all touring sides tend to struggle away from home, but facing a second string 130kmph Shield attack wont help to prepare you for 3 bowlers delivery accurate balls at 140kmph any more than the county season and nets did. 
I dont see a Shield B team being notably stronger than the kind of invitational sides England face.

Look what happened in the winter ... they had a tour to Bangladesh and then warm ups, and still couldnt cope with quality spin bowling. Its not because they mplayed a 3 day game instead of 4 day game; its because they dont face that week in week out during the season, and players are selected on their performances against county seamers trundling in at 130kmph.
Again Pakistan turned up in the summer and matched them with a mix of quality spin and genuine pace on their own pitches. They only had 2 3 day warm up games to preparem, but managed a 2-2 draw.  England just arent that good and just arent used to facing good bowling other than of a very narrow type. Teams recently have been doing better in England than England have been doing in their back yards without any more warm up than England get.

Next year they are facing 3 of the best 4 attacks in the world at home. The batsmen should at least be used to facing good bowling by the end of that, and our own bowlers will at least have the pitches they rely on to be truely effective. I do agree with Vaughns assesment though, Australia have a very good chance of retaining the Ashes and breaking that home run of Englands if Cook has retired ( which is sounding more likely by the day) and if they can keep their front 3 seamers fit.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by KP_fan on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 8:41 am

One of the major bad outcomes for Eng is loss of batsman Root clearly to the pressures of captaincy
Visibly nervous, ruffled and desperate in that order is what he gets as things do not go his way...and it definitely affects his batting

Early signs were visible in the rather ignominious defeat when WI chased down a big 4th inning total

This series he is averaging 20 something and I don't see it getting better anytime soon...and at this rate his once close to 54 batting average will drop under 50 sooner

In my view his problem is he's been given a job that requires bearing out a lot of rough patches manfully.....and he's not grown into a man yet
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 9:22 am

KP_fan wrote:One of the major bad outcomes for Eng is loss of batsman Root clearly to the pressures of captaincy
Visibly nervous, ruffled and desperate in that order is what he gets as things do not go his way...and it definitely affects his batting

Early signs were visible in the rather ignominious defeat when WI chased down a big 4th inning total

This series he is averaging 20 something  and I don't see it getting better anytime soon...and at this rate his once close to 54 batting average will drop under 50 sooner

In my view his problem is he's been given a job that requires bearing out a lot of rough patches manfully.....and he's not grown into a man yet


He had a worse tour last time when he wasnt captain against a weaker attack.
He had a strong summer and a good winter tour as Captain despite the results being poor.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by alfie on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 9:33 am

A bit of gloom in the aftermath of a heavy defeat is to be expected ; but I think Goose is being a little harsh on the team...Nobody has said they were the finished product yet but I think most of us have seen them as a developing group - pretty good at home (you can argue that they could be more dominant ; but they haven't lost a series at home recently unlike SA and Australia so can at least claim a pass mark , surely ?)
Away record sucks : true.  Again , so does everyone else's but let us not use that as an excuse not to care.

Strengths and weaknesses : up until this tour most people would have said the main strength was an exceptionally powerful all round group from six to nine that both ensured runs and enabled the pure bowlers to get sufficient assistance to do their jobs. Unfortunately the loss of Stokes has exposed that as a partial illusion : remember all the complaints that eight was too low for players like Moeen and Woakes ? Exposed to a very good attack they simply haven't been able to cover for the loss of their centerpiece ...  And I accept that injury may have cruelled Moeen on this trip ; but still the engine room looks as if it only works when Big Ben is stoking the boiler...

Apart from that they had a group of bowlers who worked very well in home conditions ; less so abroad. They still have that ; although injuries have certainly impacted their effectiveness . I don't mean just on this tour : on that sorry tour of India , neither Anderson nor Broad was ever fully fit and certainly never together : and so far the backups have generally been one step forward and one step back. It is finding the next generation of pace bowlers that is the big challenge here : I am actually a little encouraged by the number of young ones apparently in the queue at present as I think someone is almost certain to emerge soon just on the law of averages.

The funny thing is that the top order batting - main weakness pre-tour - has suffered further blows with the struggles of Root and Cook yet has almost held its own thanks to better than expected showings from the new boys (especially Malan)  If the experienced players could get back into some form that part of the team might start to look fit for purpose ?  The issue of being a bit more "hungry" to convert good scores into monsters is something I think the coaching staff ought to be looking at.

The elephant in the room is the spinner and I accept that until they can improve massively on Moeen (who will generally be fine at home but ineffective in most away conditions) it is going to be next to impossible to win series in Asia.

Anyway cutting this ramble short I don't think they're going to be world beaters overnight but I don't think they're rubbish either. Get Stokes back in the side (hopefully) ; mix and match the old and new bats ; get a couple of the pace men fit (always cyclical : Australia are fortunate to have their three best all fit at once this time around...they may not next year) and they'll be one of the better sides around : getting to the real top will need that spinner and perhaps one or two other pieces to fit into the jigsaw.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by alfie on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 9:49 am

KP_fan wrote:One of the major bad outcomes for Eng is loss of batsman Root clearly to the pressures of captaincy
Visibly nervous, ruffled and desperate in that order is what he gets as things do not go his way...and it definitely affects his batting

Early signs were visible in the rather ignominious defeat when WI chased down a big 4th inning total

This series he is averaging 20 something  and I don't see it getting better anytime soon...and at this rate his once close to 54 batting average will drop under 50 sooner

In my view his problem is he's been given a job that requires bearing out a lot of rough patches manfully.....and he's not grown into a man yet

Tend to agree with much of this. Was never quite sure Root was the right kind of personality to take over the team at the stage they were at ; early signs - and it is early ! He's only had ten matches in charge - are that England may have harmed themselves by hobbling their best batsman with too much extra pressure.
Not that they had a lot of choice : Cook had clearly had enough by the end of the last tour (unsurprising with the amount of rubbish the English press tends to add to the captain's burden) and there wasn't another stand out candidate so he was installed.
Whether it is a case of too early , in which case he has time to develop ; or just the wrong man - which will need both a willingness to recognize the truth and deal with it and also finding someone else ; is something we will find out as time passes.
It is what it is anyway ...no use fussing over what might have been done differently. Once again there is work for the coaches to do here : captains can learn just as do players.

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 9:54 am

Gooseberry wrote:
KP_fan wrote:One of the major bad outcomes for Eng is loss of batsman Root clearly to the pressures of captaincy
Visibly nervous, ruffled and desperate in that order is what he gets as things do not go his way...and it definitely affects his batting

Early signs were visible in the rather ignominious defeat when WI chased down a big 4th inning total

This series he is averaging 20 something  and I don't see it getting better anytime soon...and at this rate his once close to 54 batting average will drop under 50 sooner

In my view his problem is he's been given a job that requires bearing out a lot of rough patches manfully.....and he's not grown into a man yet


He had a worse tour last time when he wasnt captain against a weaker attack.
He had a strong summer and a good winter tour as Captain despite the results being poor.
In which sense was the 2013-14 Australian attack 'weaker' than the 2017-18 attack? Mitchell Johnson displayed pace and aggregation that has only been fleetingly on display by Starc, Hazlewood and Cummins. In 2013-14 there was a chap by the name of Ryan Harris, arguably the best Australian fast bowler of his generation -when fully fit(like in 2013-14) the only fast bowler to hold a candle to Dale Steyn - who is the undisputed best bowler of his generation. Whilst in 2013-14 the third seamer was Siddle, not exactly a speed merchant, they had Watson as a genuine fourth seamer.

The 2017-18 might go on to surpass the 2013-14 version but not just yet

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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

Post by KP_fan on Tue 19 Dec 2017, 10:54 am

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:  the name of Ryan Harris, arguably the best Australian fast bowler of his generation -when fully fit(like in 2013-14) the only fast bowler to hold a candle to Dale Steyn -

True Ryan Harris was a very good ¨fast bowler...more like Malcom Marshall than anyone else I have seen
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Re: The Ashes: 3rd Test, Perth

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