Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

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Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by kingelderfield on Sun 31 Dec 2017, 4:08 pm

First topic message reminder :

With England's form bubble well and truly burst by the recent Euro match ups and their injury list resulting in a fracture to the squads integrity, it now has to be obvious that the better top down Irish organisation places them in pole position.
You're only as good as your last game and anyone who honestly analysed our win over Ozy knows much luck was expended that day, but realistically the game was considerably closer than score board suggested.
In the bigger picture the envelope of our current development has been reached and changes will result during and after this tournament. Hartley will fall as will others and our over reliance on forward domination above the ability to attack with pace and skill from deep and wide out. Brown will go and the backs will be challenged to deliver and lead our structure.
The dominance of Saracens has been the bell weather to this English revival and now, as is obvious to all, they like England are in transition to be able to progress and challenge further.
So the Irish will have this tournament, but if EJ knows his onions he'll allow bruised bodies to mend and will take an A/B squad away this summer and then start a fresh and beat the AB's in the autumn.

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by rodders on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 10:04 am

eirebilly wrote:Joe Schmidt Explains Why He Didn’t Pick Simon Zebo For The Six Nations...

http://rugbylad.ie/joe-schmidt-explains-didnt-pick-simon-zebo-six-nations/

Joe Schmidt claims Simon Zebo was overlooked in his Six Nations squad for the opening two rounds against France and Italy, purely based on his current form.

The Ireland boss claims Zebo hasn’t been completely cast out as a result of his impending move to France, and that he remains in contention for the latter rounds of the competition.

Speaking at today’s Six Nations launch, as first reported by Murray Kinsella in The42, Schmidt says Zebo didn’t have a great game by his own standards against Racing 92 a couple of weeks ago.

Not sure what to make of this. Schmidt maybe realising that he has may just have made a mistake by leaving Zebo out of the squad and is now backtracking by claiming he may be selected for the latter rounds.

I have been very outspoken about my feelings of Schmidt's man management (in)abilities and this just seems to be another case of poor man management.

Billy I raised an eyebrow at this statement by Schmidt.

I did wonder if he was getting his own back at Zebo's comments recently about Joe's coaching and feeling he had more freedom at Munster to express himself, and also expressing discontent that he was left out on the basis of going overseas - making the point about Sexton being selected when he was away.

On the other hand here the point Joe is probably trying to get across is that in his mind he's picked the best players available, it wouldn't be fair on Conway, Larmour or Stockdale to suggest public ally at least. that if Zebo hadn't of signed for Racing then one of them wouldn't be there, whether it is true or not.

So when you are discussing Joe's man management, sure Joe has a responsibility to the players he's selected and not just Zebo.

I think Joe does rate Zebo, just not as highly as he rates himself, nor some aspects of the media and public do.

I'm not sure if Joe was being slightly disingenuous here but suspect he is probably fed up at so much attention being focused on a player who for him is not a starter in the XV.

I think Zebo probably has some right to be aggrieved but not any more than O'Hallaran, Gilroy, Cooney and others on the fringes.
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 10:10 am

I agree Zebo's form is good and he has been a very good player for Ireland although I cant understand why people get so worked up over individuals not getting selected. Its a team game. With the quality we have on the wing missing Zebo won make that much difference.

I think when Schmidt took on the job he inherited a team that had great quality but had plenty of legacy issues to iron out. Some of the main ones as I see it were:

over reliance on key players
Not enough depth
Idolisation of some players
Not good at knock out games

I think to address these issues he never panders to anyone no matter how good they are. I have heard a lot of players say this of him even before he joined Ireland. The depth issue has been addressed through good IRFU policies and good succession policies by Schmidt. Lots of people love to state that new players are only brought in due to injuries however, that ignores the fact that Ireland have capped more new players under Schmidt than anyone else and the players are nearly always fully primed to go when they get their first cap due to the exposure to the Ireland team dynamic they have already benefited from.

I think he is addressing the knock out issues by getting Ireland to play off a very specific template where everyone knows their role including the back up 15 and they are so well drilled that subs can slot in much more seamlessly than ever. In the past Ireland squads suffered because our game plan relied more on individual brilliance such as POC's leadership or O'Driscoll's flair etc. If key guys got injured it, forget about it. These days we can beat SA in SA without Sexton, England without Murray or NZ without O'Brien.

In terms of how this relates to Zebo Id say it may be a personality thing. Zebo just may not slot that comfortably into the plan.

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by SecretFly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 10:19 am

Collapse2005 wrote:I agree Zebo's form is good and he has been a very good player for Ireland although I cant understand why people get so worked up over individuals not getting selected. Its a team game. With the quality we have on the wing missing Zebo won make that much difference.

I think when Schmidt took on the job he inherited a team that had great quality but had plenty of legacy issues to iron out. Some of the main ones as I see it were:

over reliance on key players
Not enough depth
Idolisation of some players
Not good at knock out games

I think to address these issues he never panders to anyone no matter how good they are. I have heard a lot of players say this of him even before he joined Ireland. The depth issue has been addressed through good IRFU policies and good succession policies by Schmidt. Lots of people love to state that new players are only brought in due to injuries however, that ignores the fact that Ireland have capped more new players under Schmidt than anyone else and the players are nearly always fully primed to go when they get their first cap due to the exposure to the Ireland team dynamic they have already benefited from.

I think he is addressing the knock out issues by getting Ireland to play off a very specific template where everyone knows their role including the back up 15 and they are so well drilled that subs can slot in much more seamlessly than ever. In the past Ireland squads suffered because our game plan relied more on individual brilliance such as POC's leadership or O'Driscoll's flair etc. If key guys got injured it, forget about it. These days we can beat SA in SA without Sexton, England without Murray or NZ without O'Brien.

In terms of how this relates to Zebo Id say it may be a personality thing. Zebo just may not slot that comfortably into the plan.

clap Wonderful concise and nailed down post, Guns. That says just about all that needs to be said on the topic.

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by eirebilly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 10:34 am

rodders wrote:

Billy I raised an eyebrow at this statement by Schmidt.

I did wonder if he was getting his own back at Zebo's comments recently about Joe's coaching and feeling he had more freedom at Munster to express himself, and also expressing discontent that he was left out on the basis of going overseas - making the point about Sexton being selected when he was away.

On the other hand here the point Joe is probably trying to get across is that in his mind he's picked the best players available, it wouldn't be fair on Conway, Larmour or Stockdale to suggest public ally at least. that if Zebo hadn't of signed for Racing then one of them wouldn't be there, whether it is true or not.

So when you are discussing Joe's man management, sure Joe has a responsibility to the players he's selected and not just Zebo.

I think Joe does rate Zebo, just not as highly as he rates himself, nor some aspects of the media and public do.

I'm not sure if Joe was being slightly disingenuous here but suspect he is probably fed up at so much attention being focused on a player who for him is not a starter in the XV.

I think Zebo probably has some right to be aggrieved but not any more than O'Hallaran, Gilroy, Cooney and others on the fringes.

I am not saying that Zebo should be treated differently far from it but he is being treated differently by Schmidt. He is not the only the only player. Look at Gilroy example, Scores 3 try's in 15minutes running outstanding lines and what happens, deemed surplus to requirements. Nobody can convince me that Schmidt is not biased towards the Leinster players. I do think that Schmidt is not a very good man manager.
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by SecretFly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 10:37 am

eirebilly wrote:You do realise that Zebo has strong ties in France as well don't you Fly?  This was also part of the reason he is leaving.

Not the Munster way? Zebo is Munster through and through, he loves Munster and we love him. Just watch the crowds reaction and his interaction with him last weekend.

I'll leave it with you, billy Smile

Just like Joe and Simon...we too have very different opinions on players and people.  

But you know for a fact that I'm as highly critical of Leinster players if I see things I don't like either in their playing habits or in their personalities on/or off the field.  Plenty of Munster players I'd admire...and Ulster and Connacht players too.  Sometimes the criticism of a certain player IS simply a universal thing.  It doesn't always have to involve the colour of his shirt and generally doesn't with me.  Like I always tell people, Ireland is my 'club' - that's where I first gained my passion for the sport on the auld B&W TV.  Provinces and/or Provincial loyalty is just a bit of an icing.

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by eirebilly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 10:47 am

Fly, I am not saying that it is because Zebo plays for Munster. I think that Schmidt just is just too biased towards Leinster. Mainly due to the fact that he was their coach. It is not just Munster players that I feel have been treated poorly by Schmidt, players from Ulster and Connacht have also been treated poorly or have been ignored by him. Again, I think he is an excellent coach but not for Ireland due to his ties with Leinster and I also feel he is a very poor man manager.
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by SecretFly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 10:56 am

eirebilly wrote:Fly, I am not saying that it is because Zebo plays for Munster. I think that Schmidt just is just too biased towards Leinster. Mainly due to the fact that he was their coach. It is not just Munster players that I feel have been treated poorly by Schmidt, players from Ulster and Connacht have also been treated poorly or have been ignored by him. Again, I think he is an excellent coach but not for Ireland due to his ties with Leinster and I also feel he is a very poor man manager.

Well now that's like me saying I'm happy that an obviously very good player like Zebo would choose to leave Munster, his Province, and Ireland to go to a side that might one day, with his help, throw Munster or another Irish Province out of a future Champions Cup.

I'm not happy about that prospect because I'm a passionate Provincial supporter at European level (all of them) and an Ireland supporter that might have liked Zebo to still be in the mix.

You don't so easily cast off an 'Excellent coach' and allow such a coach to fall into an opposition team's hands. That to me is a version of suicide. If he's an excellent coach, he'll do me...for now. Zebo is a great feisty opportunistic player. It's him that's doing the walking. Ireland doesn't want rid of him. He's doing the talking and walking.

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by eirebilly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 11:03 am

But Fly, you can have situations where the coach is excellent but doesn't suit the team. For instance, I feel that Lancaster is a brilliant coach who got England purring but just did not suit England in the end. I make it no secret that I feel Leinster recent success has a lot to do with Lancaster.

I believe that Ireland would benefit from having Cotter as the head coach as he has no provincial ties.
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by rodders on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 11:44 am

eirebilly wrote:
rodders wrote:

Billy I raised an eyebrow at this statement by Schmidt.

I did wonder if he was getting his own back at Zebo's comments recently about Joe's coaching and feeling he had more freedom at Munster to express himself, and also expressing discontent that he was left out on the basis of going overseas - making the point about Sexton being selected when he was away.

On the other hand here the point Joe is probably trying to get across is that in his mind he's picked the best players available, it wouldn't be fair on Conway, Larmour or Stockdale to suggest public ally at least. that if Zebo hadn't of signed for Racing then one of them wouldn't be there, whether it is true or not.

So when you are discussing Joe's man management, sure Joe has a responsibility to the players he's selected and not just Zebo.

I think Joe does rate Zebo, just not as highly as he rates himself, nor some aspects of the media and public do.

I'm not sure if Joe was being slightly disingenuous here but suspect he is probably fed up at so much attention being focused on a player who for him is not a starter in the XV.

I think Zebo probably has some right to be aggrieved but not any more than O'Hallaran, Gilroy, Cooney and others on the fringes.

I am not saying that Zebo should be treated differently far from it but he is being treated differently by Schmidt. He is not the only the only player. Look at Gilroy example, Scores 3 try's in 15minutes running outstanding lines and what happens, deemed surplus to requirements. Nobody can convince me that Schmidt is not biased towards the Leinster players. I do think that Schmidt is not a very good man manager.

But Billy you are inferring that Zebo and Gilroy should be selected based on scoring tries but ignoring weaknesses that Schmidt deem them to have, O'Hallaran is another.

Obviously he is not going to state them publicly but does privately with each player. That is good man management in my book.

If you look at Lancaster at at Leinster he said publicly that they wouldn't sacrifice team cohesion, in defense, to facilitate a flair player - a reference to Lowe.

This is the same, Joe doesn't trust certain players on the pitch and that is why he is not picking them.
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 11:50 am

eirebilly wrote:

I am not saying that Zebo should be treated differently far from it but he is being treated differently by Schmidt. He is not the only the only player. Look at Gilroy example, Scores 3 try's in 15minutes running outstanding lines and what happens, deemed surplus to requirements. Nobody can convince me that Schmidt is not biased towards the Leinster players. I do think that Schmidt is not a very good man manager.

Schimdt provides exactly the man management Ireland players have always needed. No more pandering to them but a rather a focus on constant improvement no matter who you are. If you cant take criticism how do you expect to improve?

No matter who the coach is here will be players that are deemed surplus to requirements. Just because they are the guys you idolise doesn't make Schmidt a bad coach.

In Ireland's last game v Argentina this was the breakdown of starters per province:
Leinster - 7
Munster - 4
Ulster - 3
Connacht - 1

Last six nations game v England:
Leinster - 6
Munster - 5
Ulster - 3
Connacht - 1

Connacht side I cant understand why anyone would look at selection and see it as anything other than a reflection of how good each side has been over the last few years.



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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Poorfour on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 11:50 am

eirebilly wrote:But Fly, you can have situations where the coach is excellent but doesn't suit the team. For instance, I feel that Lancaster is a brilliant coach who got England purring but just did not suit England in the end. I make it no secret that I feel Leinster recent success has a lot to do with Lancaster.

I believe that Ireland would benefit from having Cotter as the head coach as he has no provincial ties.

I think Lancaster's issue was mainly a level of inexperience at international level; he did a lot that did suit England, but ultimately didn't understand a few key areas - how to use the bench, when and how to make major changes to his team and tactics, and ultimately man-management and selection. I don't think it's a question of what suits. I know I am in a minority, but I would be happy for him to have another crack at England in a few years when he's got a bit more miles on the clock.

Although another way of looking at it is what does a coach bring to bridge the gap between club performance and international success? That will be different for every country and at different points in time - though two universals are how good you are at building the wider squad, and preparing players for the additional intensity and pace (and it's surprising how few coaches get both of these right). So maybe the question of "fit" is whether the coach can identify what he needs to do over and above what club and provincial teams can do - and then deliver it.

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by lostinwales on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 11:54 am

Poorfour wrote:
eirebilly wrote:But Fly, you can have situations where the coach is excellent but doesn't suit the team. For instance, I feel that Lancaster is a brilliant coach who got England purring but just did not suit England in the end. I make it no secret that I feel Leinster recent success has a lot to do with Lancaster.

I believe that Ireland would benefit from having Cotter as the head coach as he has no provincial ties.

I think Lancaster's issue was mainly a level of inexperience at international level; he did a lot that did suit England, but ultimately didn't understand a few key areas - how to use the bench, when and how to make major changes to his team and tactics, and ultimately man-management and selection. I don't think it's a question of what suits. I know I am in a minority, but I would be happy for him to have another crack at England in a few years when he's got a bit more miles on the clock.

Although another way of looking at it is what does a coach bring to bridge the gap between club performance and international success? That will be different for every country and at different points in time - though two universals are how good you are at building the wider squad, and preparing players for the additional intensity and pace (and it's surprising how few coaches get both of these right). So maybe the question of "fit" is whether the coach can identify what he needs to do over and above what club and provincial teams can do - and then deliver it.

Very much agree. Eddie walked into a system that was almost there and then provided the top two inches

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by lostinwales on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 11:56 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:

I am not saying that Zebo should be treated differently far from it but he is being treated differently by Schmidt. He is not the only the only player. Look at Gilroy example, Scores 3 try's in 15minutes running outstanding lines and what happens, deemed surplus to requirements. Nobody can convince me that Schmidt is not biased towards the Leinster players. I do think that Schmidt is not a very good man manager.

Schimdt provides exactly the man management Ireland players have always needed. No more pandering to them but a rather a focus on constant improvement no matter who you are. If you cant take criticism how do you expect to improve?

No matter who the coach is here will be players that are deemed surplus to requirements. Just because they are the guys you idolise doesn't make Schmidt a bad coach.

In Ireland's last game v Argentina this was the breakdown of starters per province:
Leinster - 7
Munster - 4
Ulster - 3
Connacht - 1

Last six nations game v England:
Leinster - 6
Munster - 5
Ulster - 3
Connacht - 1

Connacht side I cant understand why anyone would look at selection and see it as anything other than a reflection of how good each side has been over the last few years.



I think you are hitting the problem we have when we start producing an excess of potential test players. Some favourites will always miss out, and that will always leave some supporters permanently unhappy regardless of how well the team is doing.

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by SecretFly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 12:08 pm

eirebilly wrote:But Fly, you can have situations where the coach is excellent but doesn't suit the team. For instance, I feel that Lancaster is a brilliant coach who got England purring but just did not suit England in the end. I make it no secret that I feel Leinster recent success has a lot to do with Lancaster.

I believe that Ireland would benefit from having Cotter as the head coach as he has no provincial ties.

You've mentioned Cotter a lot, billy.  That's fine.  I don't always agree with the way Joe wants his teams to play, mostly because I keep remembering his ability to coach one of the most lethally attacking sides in European rugby history.  I think he's often overdoing the 'caution' game but here I am, and there is he.  He's the coach with the record, I'm just a 606 mouthbox.

So, I'm 110% behind this man called Joe Schmidt.  

I hope he has a few pleasant surprises still left for us before he ends his stint as our National coach.  I feel I owe him more (in the happiness he has helped give me over the years) than he owes any of us.  And he has us back nosing around the 2nd spot in World Rugby rankings .... and not for the first time in his tenure.  And that's not an easy feat to sustain.  

I'd put Schmidt much higher than Cotter on my list because I know he can coach it a number of ways and has a record at being successful at a number of ways.  That to me is a smart man working that doesn't feel the need to keep a reputation going on just the fleet-footed audience-friendly rugby.  There has obviously been a book of reasons why he's coached Ireland the way he has to this point.  We won't know all of those reasons, but I'm prepared to live with them if we can have another few periods of rugby that we might all remember for a long time.  I'm willing to have him around for longer in the hope of that happening.

Now, just to end it.  Your reasons for saying Joe Schmidt is not the right coach in an Irish context immediately precludes all coaches currently working in Ireland....and that includes Lancaster (who must have worked up a Leinster bias of his own by now?)

And finally finally!!! Cool ............. I would never forget the quiet man - Girvan Dempsey - in any reading of where Leinster might be now.  Lancaster I'm sure is doing great work, I've always said there wasn't a whole lot wrong with the England side he coached and Jones walked in to a team that didn't require too much work from him to polish.  But I think Dempsey, who knows Leinster inside out and knows the philosophy of Leinster, is as much a part in this exciting brand they now play (yet again in their history) as Lancaster is.


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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Poorfour on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 12:10 pm

lostinwales wrote:Very much agree. Eddie walked into a system that was almost there and then provided the top two inches

Yes - though I think the really clever bit is how he's gradually upped the intensity and put the players in positions where they have to work things out for themselves. He didn't actually change much in his first 6N, but has layered more and more change on top. It's Woodward's marginal gains turned up to 11.

Townsend has done something very similar with Scotland - Cotter got the basics in place, Toonie has somehow managed to translate his vision of rugby into the players he coaches in a way that he only intermittently managed on the pitch.

I get the sense that Joe has worked the other way round: the core playing style was there and working, but he's fixed a lot of basics behind the scenes. And Ireland's diminishing reliance on a few star players is one of the most dangerous things about them.

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by eirebilly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 12:36 pm

rodders wrote:

But Billy you are inferring that Zebo and Gilroy should be selected based on scoring tries but ignoring weaknesses that Schmidt deem them to have, O'Hallaran is another.

Obviously he is not going to state them publicly but does privately with each player. That is good man management in my book.

If you look at Lancaster at at Leinster he said publicly that they wouldn't sacrifice team cohesion, in defense, to facilitate a flair player - a reference to Lowe.

This is the same, Joe doesn't trust certain players on the pitch and that is why he is not picking them.

Rodders, neither Gilroy or Zebo (just using these two although there are many more) are bad defensively as people think. Do you think that Gilroy or Zebo are worse defenders than, say, Dave Kearney? Do you think that they are worse attacking options than Dave Kearney?
By the way, I would certainly have players with the scoring ability of Zebo and Gilroy in the squad.

The excuse that Schmidt is using now to say that Zebo was out of form simply just does not hold water as if he thought that way the Rob Kearney would not have played during the AI's for the very same reason.
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Sin é on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 12:56 pm

What nonsense there is being spouted about Zebo's defence. His most recent defence coach in response to a goodbye & thanks tweet to Rassie & Jacques.

Jacques Nienaber‏ @jacnienaber
Replying to @SimonZebo

Thanks for YOU. What a pleasure to coach an individual like Zeebs. He is a better person than a player and what a player he is! You made me!
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by SecretFly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 1:04 pm

Sin é wrote:What nonsense there is being spouted about Zebo's defence. His most recent defence coach in response to a goodbye & thanks tweet to Rassie & Jacques.

Jacques Nienaber‏ @jacnienaber
Replying to @SimonZebo

Thanks for YOU. What a pleasure to coach an individual like Zeebs. He is a better person than a player and what a player he is! You made me!

What nonsense to evade the 'defence' point.  The point is not that Zebo is a useless defender or ruck resourcer.......................... the point is..... the point is Sin, and others here who keep missing it - is that he himself has said Joe Schmidt's Ireland probably over-concentrates on that aspect of rugby at the expense of letting 'creative' players create.

So to repeat again, for the hard of hearing.  It's not that Zebo Can't defend, it's that he himself has said he doesn't enjoy doing so much of it in an Ireland shirt.  He doesn't like the style of rugby in Ireland camp....

Geddih sin???

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by SecretFly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 1:07 pm

Sin é wrote:

Jacques Nienaber‏ @jacnienaber
Replying to @SimonZebo

Thanks for YOU. What a pleasure to coach an individual like Zeebs. He is a better person than a player and what a player he is! You made me!

P.S. He's a living god, that Zeebs. And probably has now only one (or two Whistle ) apostate non-believer on the planet. That's a good record for a god in these times.

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by eirebilly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 1:10 pm

Fly,

You seem to be getting frustrated at people not understanding the point you are trying to make, maybe you should also try to understand other peoples points.

Is Zebo incorrect in stating that Schmidt is far too defensive and conservative? I am with Zebo on this (think you may be as well).

Zebo has nothing against defence, when required but he is also a naturally attacking player and feel that Schmidt takes this out of his (and others) games at international level. Zebo (and others) could develop even more and Ireland could have a seriously great attacking game whilst not loosing the defensive side of the game.

Its all about balance.
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Sin é on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 1:10 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:

I am not saying that Zebo should be treated differently far from it but he is being treated differently by Schmidt. He is not the only the only player. Look at Gilroy example, Scores 3 try's in 15minutes running outstanding lines and what happens, deemed surplus to requirements. Nobody can convince me that Schmidt is not biased towards the Leinster players. I do think that Schmidt is not a very good man manager.

Schimdt provides exactly the man management Ireland players have always needed. No more pandering to them but a rather a focus on constant improvement no matter who you are. If you cant take criticism how do you expect to improve?

No matter who the coach is here will be players that are deemed surplus to requirements. Just because they are the guys you idolise doesn't make Schmidt a bad coach.

Nope. Schmidt provides exactly the man management Leinster players need and probably what Ulster could do with in Ulster - a strong disciplinarian like Cheika & Schmidt. Ulster really missed out on Cheika that time after his stint in Stade Francais. As far as I can remember, the brass in Ulster thought his personality would have been too strong.

Munster is a completely different entity created by Declan Kidney, where the players are more in the driving seat.
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by SecretFly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 1:26 pm

eirebilly wrote:Fly,

You seem to be getting frustrated at people not understanding the point you are trying to make, maybe you should also try to understand other peoples points.

Is Zebo incorrect in stating that Schmidt is far too defensive and conservative? I am with Zebo on this (think you may be as well).

Zebo has nothing against defence, when required but he is also a naturally attacking player and feel that Schmidt takes this out of his (and others) games at international level. Zebo (and others) could develop even more and Ireland could have a seriously great attacking game whilst not loosing the defensive side of the game.

Its all about balance.

Not his job to highlight his international coach's shortfalls in theory and then still expect said coach to pick him.  He put his cards on the table bluntly I think after he got left out of the AIs.  So he kicked back in Schmidt's face.  So be it.  A tennis game.  Now it's Schmidt's turn:  "If that's how you feel about my coaching I won't worry you with a call up."

It's easy maths, billy.

He's a player - he isn't the coach.  If he wanted to play on in the time he has left then maybe he should have kept the mouth closed.

I don't need Schmidt.  He doesn't hire me for anything.  I can say what I feel at any time.  My opinions of his coaching are continuous and genuinely put... (see above).  But it's none of Zebo's business how the coach coaches.  
If he doesn't like it then........well, he's made up his mind not to stick around.  His decision.  But the topic never was about Zebos defending skills - its about his open assertion that he prefers attack.  His words.  Let him live with them and pay the consequences.


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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by SecretFly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 1:29 pm

Sin é wrote:

Munster is a completely different entity created by Declan Kidney, where the players are more in the driving seat.

NOT in Ireland camp though. Maybe Zebo miscalculated that one and got to thinking all teams put players in the driving seat. Poor man might have been brainwashed by the endless powerpoint presentations about Player sanctity and infallible omnipotence? Wink

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Sin é on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 1:33 pm

In fairness to Zebo, he knuckled down and did it Schmidt's way for a couple of years (unlike O'Haloran & Gilroy). What I think is the problem is that Schmidt doesn't rate attack minded players - he must prefers defensively minded ones who can do kick and chase. He doesn't rate Irish players, so maybe he is right to lower the playing field to accommodate the least accomplished.

What I did find kind of annoying is how Zebo had to stop celebrating trys etc during the period he was playing for Ireland. Obviously Joe didn't approve, whereas all the kids just loved him for it.
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Sin é on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 1:37 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:

Munster is a completely different entity created by Declan Kidney, where the players are more in the driving seat.

NOT in Ireland camp though.  Maybe Zebo miscalculated that one and got to thinking all teams put players in the driving seat.  Poor man might have been brainwashed by the endless powerpoint presentations about Player sanctity and infallible omnipotence? Wink

When I say more in the driving seat, I mean drive the culture. For example, if a player is late for training, his team mates reprimand the late player, not the coaching staff, who might do so by dropping them.

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by SecretFly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 1:54 pm

Sin é wrote:In fairness to Zebo, he knuckled down and did it Schmidt's way for a couple of years (unlike O'Haloran & Gilroy). What I think is the problem is that Schmidt doesn't rate attack minded players - he must prefers defensively minded ones who can do kick and chase. He doesn't rate Irish players, so maybe he is right to lower the playing field to accommodate the least accomplished.

Em...remind yourself again sometime of how Leinster played when he was there with a few youtube reels, billy.  I remember looking at some of them a few years ago and the mind boggled that this could be the same coach.  There.  You see how brutally honest I can be even about a coach I highly rate?  I don't like our style now, but I'm not mad that Joe isn't picking me or letting me do things my way.  Zebo is a player that wanted to play - he did knuckle down, and I appreciated it and yes, much more capable of that brute defensive stuff than Gilroy.... but ...he's made his own choices both in speaking and in walking.


What I did find kind of annoying is how Zebo had to stop celebrating trys etc during the period he was playing for Ireland. Obviously Joe didn't approve, whereas all the kids just loved him for it.

You liked it.  Irish fans maybe liked it - some of them.  To some generations it's just fun and lightheartedness and enjoying his rugby.  But not many Irish fans liked Ashton's swallow dives, did they?  What did people say then?  "Hope he gets mightily embarrassed by one of those sometime, the cheeky, arrogant *&(^$!!"  That was the attitude.

So maybe Schmidt was trying to save a player from himself.  Maybe he didn't want his players catching that kind of reputation amongst the fans of other teams..... and maybe he was true to the philosophy he was said to have had: 'when you make another team mate look good - that catches my eye' - i.e. not the selfish maverick heros but the players that want to help out their teammates, right to the end of the line and the tryline itself.  

Showpony players are addicted to self...I'd assume even Zebo would admit that.  George Best loved himself.  Maradona loves himself.  Ronaldo adores himself.  Zebo wants to make his mark.  He's numero uno in his head.  And with the kind of lavish praise he gets from past coaches............ why wouldn't he think that? Wink  Even Penney was saying Joe should let Zebo play it any way he wants. Laugh

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 2:09 pm

Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:

I am not saying that Zebo should be treated differently far from it but he is being treated differently by Schmidt. He is not the only the only player. Look at Gilroy example, Scores 3 try's in 15minutes running outstanding lines and what happens, deemed surplus to requirements. Nobody can convince me that Schmidt is not biased towards the Leinster players. I do think that Schmidt is not a very good man manager.

Schimdt provides exactly the man management Ireland players have always needed. No more pandering to them but a rather a focus on constant improvement no matter who you are. If you cant take criticism how do you expect to improve?

No matter who the coach is here will be players that are deemed surplus to requirements. Just because they are the guys you idolise doesn't make Schmidt a bad coach.

Nope. Schmidt provides exactly the man management Leinster players need and probably what Ulster could do with in Ulster - a strong disciplinarian like Cheika & Schmidt. Ulster really missed out on Cheika that time after his stint in Stade Francais. As far as I can remember, the brass in Ulster thought his personality would have been too strong.

Munster is a completely different entity created by Declan Kidney, where the players are more in the driving seat.

Maybe that's why Munster aren't as successful in the last 10 years as Leinster. As a pro international you cant really expect to have any authority over your manager. Of course that doesn't mean you cant be a leader at the same time.

Kidney's methods failed in the end so I hope Munster have moved on from the days when he was manager and I know they have.

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Sin é on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 2:11 pm

[quote="SecretFly"]
Sin é wrote:In fairness to Zebo, he knuckled down and did it Schmidt's way for a couple of years (unlike O'Haloran & Gilroy). What I think is the problem is that Schmidt doesn't rate attack minded players - he must prefers defensively minded ones who can do kick and chase. He doesn't rate Irish players, so maybe he is right to lower the playing field to accommodate the least accomplished.

fly wrote:Em...remind yourself again sometime of how Leinster played when he was there with a few youtube reels, billy.  I remember looking at some of them a few years ago and the mind boggled that this could be the same coach.  There.  You see how brutally honest I can be even about a coach I highly rate?  I don't like our style now, but I'm not mad that Joe isn't picking me or letting me do things my way.  Zebo is a player that wanted to play - he did knuckle down, and I appreciated it and yes, much more capable of that brute defensive stuff than Gilroy.... but ...he's made his own choices both in speaking and in walking.

Back in the day where the Leinster backline had one of Schmidt's old pupils from Auckland a permanent fixture in Leinster's backline (and still is), not to mention some fairly decent southern hemisphere signings like Brad Thorn. That Leinster team wasn't completely made up of Irish players.

Not sure what your point is about saying he made his own choice. He was forced out by Schmidt's inflexibility and Schmidt only ever giving him mealy mouted praise. He was always trying to take him down a peg or two.



What I did find kind of annoying is how Zebo had to stop celebrating trys etc during the period he was playing for Ireland. Obviously Joe didn't approve, whereas all the kids just loved him for it.

You liked it.  Irish fans maybe liked it - some of them.  To some generations it's just fun and lightheartedness and enjoying his rugby.  But not many Irish fans liked Ashton's swallow dives, did they?  What did people say then?  "Hope he gets mightily embarrassed by one of those sometime, the cheeky, arrogant *&(^$!!"  That was the attitude.

What does it matter what we think of Ashton's swallow dives. I'm sure English kids loved them. Simon always plays with a smile on his face which is something I don't associate with Ashton.

So maybe Schmidt was trying to save a player from himself.  Maybe he didn't want his players catching that kind of reputation amongst the fans of other teams..... and maybe he was true to the philosophy he was said to have had: 'when you make another team mate look good - that catches my eye' - i.e. not the selfish maverick heros but the players that want to help out their teammates, right to the end of the line and the tryline itself.  

Nonsense - from everything I see and read, Zebo is well liked by everyone including his team mates. And he isn't a selfish player.

Showpony players are addicted to self...I'd assume even Zebo would admit that.  George Best loved himself.  Maradona loves himself.  Ronaldo adores himself.  Zebo wants to make his mark.  He's numero uno in his head.  And with the kind of lavish praise he gets from past coaches............ why wouldn't he think that? Wink  Even Penney was saying Joe should let Zebo play it any way he wants. Laugh

Ah here now. Showpony's lack substance, which isn't the case with Zebo.
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 2:11 pm

lostinwales wrote:
I think you are hitting the problem we have when we start producing an excess of potential test players. Some favourites will always miss out, and that will always leave some supporters permanently unhappy regardless of how well the team is doing.

Agreed. Its not always about getting the best 15 players on the pitch its about getting the most suitable players together for what you want to achieve particularly when you have a surplus.

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 2:12 pm

Sin é wrote:In fairness to Zebo, he knuckled down and did it Schmidt's way for a couple of years (unlike O'Haloran & Gilroy). What I think is the problem is that Schmidt doesn't rate attack minded players - he must prefers defensively minded ones who can do kick and chase. He doesn't rate Irish players, so maybe he is right to lower the playing field to accommodate the least accomplished.

What I did find kind of annoying is how Zebo had to stop celebrating trys etc during the period he was playing for Ireland. Obviously Joe didn't approve, whereas all the kids just loved him for it.

Its not as simple as saying he doesn't like attacking players. Id say its more like he favours well rounded players that can attack and defend.

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Sin é on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 2:31 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
eirebilly wrote:

I am not saying that Zebo should be treated differently far from it but he is being treated differently by Schmidt. He is not the only the only player. Look at Gilroy example, Scores 3 try's in 15minutes running outstanding lines and what happens, deemed surplus to requirements. Nobody can convince me that Schmidt is not biased towards the Leinster players. I do think that Schmidt is not a very good man manager.

Schimdt provides exactly the man management Ireland players have always needed. No more pandering to them but a rather a focus on constant improvement no matter who you are. If you cant take criticism how do you expect to improve?

No matter who the coach is here will be players that are deemed surplus to requirements. Just because they are the guys you idolise doesn't make Schmidt a bad coach.

Nope. Schmidt provides exactly the man management Leinster players need and probably what Ulster could do with in Ulster - a strong disciplinarian like Cheika & Schmidt. Ulster really missed out on Cheika that time after his stint in Stade Francais. As far as I can remember, the brass in Ulster thought his personality would have been too strong.

Munster is a completely different entity created by Declan Kidney, where the players are more in the driving seat.

Maybe that's why Munster aren't as successful in the last 10 years as Leinster. As a pro international you cant really expect to have any authority over your manager. Of course that doesn't mean you cant be a leader at the same time.

Kidney's methods failed in the end so I hope Munster have moved on from the days when he was manager and I know they have.

Leinster underachieved prior to the arrival of Cheika (who by the way, admired the Munster culture). It has double the resources of the rest of the Provinces. Munster is still one of the most successful clubs in world rugby over such a long period of time - leading the way with reaching the knock-out stages of Heineken/Champs Cup rugby (17 times). Most games played in Europe (164, winning 113) to Toulouse (157, win 105), (Leinster 156, win 103).

What I dislike about Schmidt management is that he seems to have this attitude that sport can't be joyful. If the players are enjoying themselves, there is something wrong. Incidentally, I've heard both Donnacha O'Callaghan and Jerry Flannery saying recently that Declan Kidney created the best environment that they have experienced to play sport in. Now, both of them were very driven players and high achievers.

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Sin é on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 2:33 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:In fairness to Zebo, he knuckled down and did it Schmidt's way for a couple of years (unlike O'Haloran & Gilroy). What I think is the problem is that Schmidt doesn't rate attack minded players - he must prefers defensively minded ones who can do kick and chase. He doesn't rate Irish players, so maybe he is right to lower the playing field to accommodate the least accomplished.

What I did find kind of annoying is how Zebo had to stop celebrating trys etc during the period he was playing for Ireland. Obviously Joe didn't approve, whereas all the kids just loved him for it.

Its not as simple as saying he doesn't like attacking players. Id say its more like he favours well rounded players that can attack and defend.

Zebo is a well rounded player - better defender than Kearney as well who is poorish.
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by rodders on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 2:34 pm

eirebilly wrote:
rodders wrote:

But Billy you are inferring that Zebo and Gilroy should be selected based on scoring tries but ignoring weaknesses that Schmidt deem them to have, O'Hallaran is another.

Obviously he is not going to state them publicly but does privately with each player. That is good man management in my book.

If you look at Lancaster at at Leinster he said publicly that they wouldn't sacrifice team cohesion, in defense, to facilitate a flair player - a reference to Lowe.

This is the same, Joe doesn't trust certain players on the pitch and that is why he is not picking them.

Rodders, neither Gilroy or Zebo (just using these two although there are many more) are bad defensively as people think. Do you think that Gilroy or Zebo are worse defenders than, say, Dave Kearney? Do you think that they are worse attacking options than Dave Kearney?
By the way, I would certainly have players with the scoring ability of Zebo and Gilroy in the squad.

The excuse that Schmidt is using now to say that Zebo was out of form simply just does not hold water as if he thought that way the Rob Kearney would not have played during the AI's for the very same reason.

I think they aren't as good defensively as some of the other players Schmidt favours, and also their off the ball work is not as good.

A good example is that try Heaslip scored against Italy that is floating around FB at the minute.

If you look at the work Trimble does to make the try,he runs 50+m without the ball to take and give a pass and takes out 2 defenders in doing so, it's easy to miss but probably makes the try. These are things Schmidt values and the players who don't get it get left out.
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by the-goon on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 2:43 pm

This is quite amusing. Billy fear of bias means that we can never have a coach that is Irish or has ever coached in Ireland to be Ireland coach. That means no ROG (munster bias), no Lancaster (Leinster bias) etc. We need to pick a coach who has limited knowledge of Irish rugby to come in and coach us to success.

As for Zeebs. Is he a better winger than Earls or Stockdale? No
Better FB than Kearney? No
Worth dropping Conway for, who has been excellent? No
Better Utility player who can cover wing and centre (i.e. No 23, or even the 24th man) than McFadden? No
Is he playing better than Lamour, who could be our Stu Hogg? No.


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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:01 pm

Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:In fairness to Zebo, he knuckled down and did it Schmidt's way for a couple of years (unlike O'Haloran & Gilroy). What I think is the problem is that Schmidt doesn't rate attack minded players - he must prefers defensively minded ones who can do kick and chase. He doesn't rate Irish players, so maybe he is right to lower the playing field to accommodate the least accomplished.

What I did find kind of annoying is how Zebo had to stop celebrating trys etc during the period he was playing for Ireland. Obviously Joe didn't approve, whereas all the kids just loved him for it.

Its not as simple as saying he doesn't like attacking players. Id say its more like he favours well rounded players that can attack and defend.

Zebo is a well rounded player - better defender than Kearney as well who is poorish.

I dont think he is any more well rounded than other players we have in the same position and he is off to France so on that basis I think dropping him is fair enough. Harsh on him but fair overall.

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Sin é on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:03 pm

the-goon wrote:This is quite amusing. Billy fear of bias means that we can never have a coach that is Irish or has ever coached in Ireland to be Ireland coach. That means no ROG (munster bias), no Lancaster (Leinster bias) etc. We need to pick a coach who has limited knowledge of Irish rugby to come in and coach us to success.

As for Zeebs. Is he a better winger than Earls or Stockdale? No
Better FB than Kearney? No
Worth dropping Conway for, who has been excellent? No
Better Utility player who can cover wing and centre (i.e. No 23, or even the 24th man) than McFadden? No
Is he playing better than Lamour, who could be our Stu Hogg?  No.


You forgot to add ''in your opinion''.

Stockdale is still potential.
Zeebs is a better fullback than Kearney.
No need to drop Conway. Zeebs has been playing fullback, not wing anyway. And Zeebs is a better fullback than Conway.
Zeebs has a left boot and he covers fullback and left wing. He comes into play 2nd receiver a lot as well. He is a far better player than McFadden who has some decent form at the moment.
You are having a laugh now. Lamour hasn't been playing long enough for Leinster to actually make a mistake.

For the record, Zebo is Munster's top try scorer with a strike rate of nearly 1 in every two games. Even Tommy Bowe doesn't have a strike rate like that (I think that Denis Hickey is the only one who has a better strike rate).
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Sin é on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:05 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:In fairness to Zebo, he knuckled down and did it Schmidt's way for a couple of years (unlike O'Haloran & Gilroy). What I think is the problem is that Schmidt doesn't rate attack minded players - he must prefers defensively minded ones who can do kick and chase. He doesn't rate Irish players, so maybe he is right to lower the playing field to accommodate the least accomplished.

What I did find kind of annoying is how Zebo had to stop celebrating trys etc during the period he was playing for Ireland. Obviously Joe didn't approve, whereas all the kids just loved him for it.

Its not as simple as saying he doesn't like attacking players. Id say its more like he favours well rounded players that can attack and defend.

Zebo is a well rounded player - better defender than Kearney as well who is poorish.

I dont think he is any more well rounded than other players we have in the same position and he is off to France so on that basis I think dropping him is fair enough. Harsh on him but fair overall.

But, according to Schmidt he didn't make the squad because his form isn't as good as Lamour who has played about 5 games at fullback for Leinster and only 1 of those in the Champ Cup at fullback.
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by SecretFly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:15 pm

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:In fairness to Zebo, he knuckled down and did it Schmidt's way for a couple of years (unlike O'Haloran & Gilroy). What I think is the problem is that Schmidt doesn't rate attack minded players - he must prefers defensively minded ones who can do kick and chase. He doesn't rate Irish players, so maybe he is right to lower the playing field to accommodate the least accomplished.

fly wrote:Em...remind yourself again sometime of how Leinster played when he was there with a few youtube reels, billy.  I remember looking at some of them a few years ago and the mind boggled that this could be the same coach.  There.  You see how brutally honest I can be even about a coach I highly rate?  I don't like our style now, but I'm not mad that Joe isn't picking me or letting me do things my way.  Zebo is a player that wanted to play - he did knuckle down, and I appreciated it and yes, much more capable of that brute defensive stuff than Gilroy.... but ...he's made his own choices both in speaking and in walking.

Back in the day where the Leinster backline had one of Schmidt's old pupils from Auckland a permanent fixture in Leinster's backline (and still is), not to mention some fairly decent southern hemisphere signings like Brad Thorn. That Leinster team wasn't completely made up of Irish players.

Not sure what your point is about saying he made his own choice. He was forced out by Schmidt's inflexibility and Schmidt only ever giving him mealy mouted praise. He was always trying to take him down a peg or two.



What I did find kind of annoying is how Zebo had to stop celebrating trys etc during the period he was playing for Ireland. Obviously Joe didn't approve, whereas all the kids just loved him for it.

You liked it.  Irish fans maybe liked it - some of them.  To some generations it's just fun and lightheartedness and enjoying his rugby.  But not many Irish fans liked Ashton's swallow dives, did they?  What did people say then?  "Hope he gets mightily embarrassed by one of those sometime, the cheeky, arrogant *&(^$!!"  That was the attitude.

What does it matter what we think of Ashton's swallow dives. I'm sure English kids loved them. Simon always plays with a smile on his face which is something I don't associate with Ashton.

So maybe Schmidt was trying to save a player from himself.  Maybe he didn't want his players catching that kind of reputation amongst the fans of other teams..... and maybe he was true to the philosophy he was said to have had: 'when you make another team mate look good - that catches my eye' - i.e. not the selfish maverick heros but the players that want to help out their teammates, right to the end of the line and the tryline itself.  

Nonsense - from everything I see and read, Zebo is well liked by everyone including his team mates. And he isn't a selfish player.

Showpony players are addicted to self...I'd assume even Zebo would admit that.  George Best loved himself.  Maradona loves himself.  Ronaldo adores himself.  Zebo wants to make his mark.  He's numero uno in his head.  And with the kind of lavish praise he gets from past coaches............ why wouldn't he think that? Wink  Even Penney was saying Joe should let Zebo play it any way he wants. Laugh

Ah here now. Showpony's lack substance, which isn't the case with Zebo.

Oh here we go again.... another round of drinks.  guinness  

Leinster weren't all that hot in Schmidt's day and it wasn't all Irish players in his teams.  

Okay.  Leinster weren't a full blown attacking side that could score four tries in a first half without working up a sweat and excited all of Europe with their Zeboish flourishes.  
Correct Sin.  Joe never liked that sort of game.  

The rest of it.................... I'm afraid more evangelising on my doorstep about the new Prophet Wink  I can't be having it, Sin.  I got my own spiritual beliefs.  I can't accept that pamphlet about Zeboanity.

I'm probably a Zeebnostic.

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by SecretFly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:18 pm

Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:In fairness to Zebo, he knuckled down and did it Schmidt's way for a couple of years (unlike O'Haloran & Gilroy). What I think is the problem is that Schmidt doesn't rate attack minded players - he must prefers defensively minded ones who can do kick and chase. He doesn't rate Irish players, so maybe he is right to lower the playing field to accommodate the least accomplished.

What I did find kind of annoying is how Zebo had to stop celebrating trys etc during the period he was playing for Ireland. Obviously Joe didn't approve, whereas all the kids just loved him for it.

Its not as simple as saying he doesn't like attacking players. Id say its more like he favours well rounded players that can attack and defend.

Zebo is a well rounded player - better defender than Kearney as well who is poorish.

I dont think he is any more well rounded than other players we have in the same position and he is off to France so on that basis I think dropping him is fair enough. Harsh on him but fair overall.

But, according to Schmidt he didn't make the squad because his form isn't as good as Lamour who has played about 5 games at fullback for Leinster and only 1 of those in the Champ Cup at fullback.

He was dropped because he's going and because of what he said. He wants to go, Sin. He's had enough of Munster and Ireland. You can't chain him to the place.

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Sin é on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:23 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:In fairness to Zebo, he knuckled down and did it Schmidt's way for a couple of years (unlike O'Haloran & Gilroy). What I think is the problem is that Schmidt doesn't rate attack minded players - he must prefers defensively minded ones who can do kick and chase. He doesn't rate Irish players, so maybe he is right to lower the playing field to accommodate the least accomplished.

What I did find kind of annoying is how Zebo had to stop celebrating trys etc during the period he was playing for Ireland. Obviously Joe didn't approve, whereas all the kids just loved him for it.

Its not as simple as saying he doesn't like attacking players. Id say its more like he favours well rounded players that can attack and defend.

Zebo is a well rounded player - better defender than Kearney as well who is poorish.

I dont think he is any more well rounded than other players we have in the same position and he is off to France so on that basis I think dropping him is fair enough. Harsh on him but fair overall.

But, according to Schmidt he didn't make the squad because his form isn't as good as Lamour who has played about 5 games at fullback for Leinster and only 1 of those in the Champ Cup at fullback.

He was dropped because he's going and because of what he said.  He wants to go, Sin.  He's had enough of Munster and Ireland.  You can't chain him to the place.

So Schmidt was lying then when he said that it was Zebo's form that was the issue Rolling Eyes

edit: Zebo will be back as soon as Schmidt is gone. Better do fulfill his ambition to play in France now rather than later.
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by SecretFly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:27 pm

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:In fairness to Zebo, he knuckled down and did it Schmidt's way for a couple of years (unlike O'Haloran & Gilroy). What I think is the problem is that Schmidt doesn't rate attack minded players - he must prefers defensively minded ones who can do kick and chase. He doesn't rate Irish players, so maybe he is right to lower the playing field to accommodate the least accomplished.

What I did find kind of annoying is how Zebo had to stop celebrating trys etc during the period he was playing for Ireland. Obviously Joe didn't approve, whereas all the kids just loved him for it.

Its not as simple as saying he doesn't like attacking players. Id say its more like he favours well rounded players that can attack and defend.

Zebo is a well rounded player - better defender than Kearney as well who is poorish.

I dont think he is any more well rounded than other players we have in the same position and he is off to France so on that basis I think dropping him is fair enough. Harsh on him but fair overall.

But, according to Schmidt he didn't make the squad because his form isn't as good as Lamour who has played about 5 games at fullback for Leinster and only 1 of those in the Champ Cup at fullback.

He was dropped because he's going and because of what he said.  He wants to go, Sin.  He's had enough of Munster and Ireland.  You can't chain him to the place.

So Schmidt was lying then when he said that it was Zebo's form that was the issue Rolling Eyes

Em................................let me see...............................

eh........................yeah?

................Allegedly - (to keep it legal Whistle )

What do you have against spoofing coaches?  All coaches spoof.  
It's called interviewing techniques and making points indirectly.  

"Italy are a very good side with lots of threats across the park - if we're not on our game, we could suffer badly here."  = 'Italy are probably shyte like usual.  But you journalists aren't going to make me say that and create an international incident.  If you want insults, go ask Eddie to comment on them."


Last edited by SecretFly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Sin é on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:27 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:In fairness to Zebo, he knuckled down and did it Schmidt's way for a couple of years (unlike O'Haloran & Gilroy). What I think is the problem is that Schmidt doesn't rate attack minded players - he must prefers defensively minded ones who can do kick and chase. He doesn't rate Irish players, so maybe he is right to lower the playing field to accommodate the least accomplished.

fly wrote:Em...remind yourself again sometime of how Leinster played when he was there with a few youtube reels, billy.  I remember looking at some of them a few years ago and the mind boggled that this could be the same coach.  There.  You see how brutally honest I can be even about a coach I highly rate?  I don't like our style now, but I'm not mad that Joe isn't picking me or letting me do things my way.  Zebo is a player that wanted to play - he did knuckle down, and I appreciated it and yes, much more capable of that brute defensive stuff than Gilroy.... but ...he's made his own choices both in speaking and in walking.

Back in the day where the Leinster backline had one of Schmidt's old pupils from Auckland a permanent fixture in Leinster's backline (and still is), not to mention some fairly decent southern hemisphere signings like Brad Thorn. That Leinster team wasn't completely made up of Irish players.

Not sure what your point is about saying he made his own choice. He was forced out by Schmidt's inflexibility and Schmidt only ever giving him mealy mouted praise. He was always trying to take him down a peg or two.



What I did find kind of annoying is how Zebo had to stop celebrating trys etc during the period he was playing for Ireland. Obviously Joe didn't approve, whereas all the kids just loved him for it.

You liked it.  Irish fans maybe liked it - some of them.  To some generations it's just fun and lightheartedness and enjoying his rugby.  But not many Irish fans liked Ashton's swallow dives, did they?  What did people say then?  "Hope he gets mightily embarrassed by one of those sometime, the cheeky, arrogant *&(^$!!"  That was the attitude.

What does it matter what we think of Ashton's swallow dives. I'm sure English kids loved them. Simon always plays with a smile on his face which is something I don't associate with Ashton.

So maybe Schmidt was trying to save a player from himself.  Maybe he didn't want his players catching that kind of reputation amongst the fans of other teams..... and maybe he was true to the philosophy he was said to have had: 'when you make another team mate look good - that catches my eye' - i.e. not the selfish maverick heros but the players that want to help out their teammates, right to the end of the line and the tryline itself.  

Nonsense - from everything I see and read, Zebo is well liked by everyone including his team mates. And he isn't a selfish player.

Showpony players are addicted to self...I'd assume even Zebo would admit that.  George Best loved himself.  Maradona loves himself.  Ronaldo adores himself.  Zebo wants to make his mark.  He's numero uno in his head.  And with the kind of lavish praise he gets from past coaches............ why wouldn't he think that? Wink  Even Penney was saying Joe should let Zebo play it any way he wants. Laugh

Ah here now. Showpony's lack substance, which isn't the case with Zebo.

Oh here we go again.... another round of drinks.  guinness  

Leinster weren't all that hot in Schmidt's day and it wasn't all Irish players in his teams.  

Okay.  Leinster weren't a full blown attacking side that could score four tries in a first half without working up a sweat and excited all of Europe with their Zeboish flourishes.  
Correct Sin.  Joe never liked that sort of game.  

The rest of it.................... I'm afraid more evangelising on my doorstep about the new Prophet Wink  I can't be having it, Sin.  I got my own spiritual beliefs.  I can't accept that pamphlet about Zeboanity.

I'm probably a Zeebnostic.

My point is that if Nacewa was Irish qualified, Ireland would probably attempt to play like Leinster did when he was coach. Payne was the nearest he could get to suit that style.
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by Sin é on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:30 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:In fairness to Zebo, he knuckled down and did it Schmidt's way for a couple of years (unlike O'Haloran & Gilroy). What I think is the problem is that Schmidt doesn't rate attack minded players - he must prefers defensively minded ones who can do kick and chase. He doesn't rate Irish players, so maybe he is right to lower the playing field to accommodate the least accomplished.

What I did find kind of annoying is how Zebo had to stop celebrating trys etc during the period he was playing for Ireland. Obviously Joe didn't approve, whereas all the kids just loved him for it.

Its not as simple as saying he doesn't like attacking players. Id say its more like he favours well rounded players that can attack and defend.

Zebo is a well rounded player - better defender than Kearney as well who is poorish.

I dont think he is any more well rounded than other players we have in the same position and he is off to France so on that basis I think dropping him is fair enough. Harsh on him but fair overall.

But, according to Schmidt he didn't make the squad because his form isn't as good as Lamour who has played about 5 games at fullback for Leinster and only 1 of those in the Champ Cup at fullback.

He was dropped because he's going and because of what he said.  He wants to go, Sin.  He's had enough of Munster and Ireland.  You can't chain him to the place.

So Schmidt was lying then when he said that it was Zebo's form that was the issue Rolling Eyes

Em................................let me see...............................

eh........................yeah?

Allegedly (to keep it legal Whistle )

What do you have against spoofing coaches?  All coaches spoof.  It's called interviewing techniques and making points indirectly.  "Italy are a very good side with lots of threats across the park - if we're not on our game, we could suffer badly here."  = 'Italy are probably shyte like usual.  But you journalists aren't going to make me say that and create an international incident.  If you want insults, go ask Eddie to comment on them."  

OK to say Zebo isn't up to it though? No problem knocking him.
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by eirebilly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:32 pm

the-goon wrote:This is quite amusing. Billy fear of bias means that we can never have a coach that is Irish or has ever coached in Ireland to be Ireland coach. That means no ROG (munster bias), no Lancaster (Leinster bias) etc. We need to pick a coach who has limited knowledge of Irish rugby to come in and coach us to success.

As for Zeebs. Is he a better winger than Earls or Stockdale? No
Better FB than Kearney? No
Worth dropping Conway for, who has been excellent? No
Better Utility player who can cover wing and centre (i.e. No 23, or even the 24th man) than McFadden? No
Is he playing better than Lamour, who could be our Stu Hogg?  No.


No, I do not mean that. I mean that Schmidt is biased. Who knows if ROG or Lancaster would be biased. For the record, I would not be against Lancaster as coach, have said so many times.

In my opinion, Zebo is now more of a fullback (who can cover wing) than a winger so I would have him in direct competition with Kearney and I believe that Zebo is now a better 15 than Kearney.
McFadden? I like the guy and he is a good player but he is exactly what you label him, a Utility player and one to use in case of injuries.
Lamour, I like the lad and he has massive potential, I would certainly give him a shot against Italy. Bit too soon to start talking about him in the same breath as Kearney or Zebo just yet.
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by SecretFly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:33 pm

Ah will you come off it, sin.  That's what's wrong with you...you're a football fan at heart.  

The big central whizz player floating through midfield to score the GOAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  *shirt off, tattoo to mother on the breast, three somersaults, a running dive to the corner flag.................... tongue out, a grab of the crotch.... a punch in the guts to the mate that climbed on his back....................... a long lingering strut back to the centre of the field and a wink for the camera 3 and the back pages of the next day's tabloids....

Leinster winning = Nacewa.

And Payne is nearest Nacewa's style????

What planet have we arrived on?

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by SecretFly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:37 pm

Sin é wrote:

OK to say Zebo isn't up to it though? No problem knocking him.

No problem at all as anything Joe would say about Zebo now would be a knock. Which knock would you prefer? Zebo knows how to try the knocks of his own. He ain't no shrinking violet. Let him mind himself.

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by eirebilly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:38 pm

rodders wrote:
I think they aren't as good defensively as some of the other players Schmidt favours, and also their off the ball work is not as good.

A good example is that try Heaslip scored against Italy that is floating around FB at the minute.

If you look at the work Trimble does to make the try,he runs 50+m without the ball to take and give a pass and takes out 2 defenders in doing so, it's easy to miss but probably makes the try. These are things Schmidt values and the players who don't get it get left out.

And if you look at Zebo's try on the weekend, ran an amazing line to collect the offload from Earls and beat three defenders to score the try. Your point being?
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by SecretFly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:42 pm

eirebilly wrote:
rodders wrote:
I think they aren't as good defensively as some of the other players Schmidt favours, and also their off the ball work is not as good.

A good example is that try Heaslip scored against Italy that is floating around FB at the minute.

If you look at the work Trimble does to make the try,he runs 50+m without the ball to take and give a pass and takes out 2 defenders in doing so, it's easy to miss but probably makes the try. These are things Schmidt values and the players who don't get it get left out.

And if you look at Zebo's try on the weekend, ran an amazing line to collect the offload from Earls and beat three defenders to score the try. Your point being?

His point being Zebo doesn't feel he'll get those moments in a Joe team? Whistle

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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by eirebilly on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:47 pm

SecretFly wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
rodders wrote:
I think they aren't as good defensively as some of the other players Schmidt favours, and also their off the ball work is not as good.

A good example is that try Heaslip scored against Italy that is floating around FB at the minute.

If you look at the work Trimble does to make the try,he runs 50+m without the ball to take and give a pass and takes out 2 defenders in doing so, it's easy to miss but probably makes the try. These are things Schmidt values and the players who don't get it get left out.

And if you look at Zebo's try on the weekend, ran an amazing line to collect the offload from Earls and beat three defenders to score the try. Your point being?

His point being Zebo doesn't feel he'll get those moments in a Joe team? Whistle

Only he already has Whistle
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

Post by theslosty on Thu 25 Jan 2018, 3:48 pm

I would really like Zebo to be involved and fully trusted with the 15 jersey but I fully agree that there's no point picking players who won't be here for the RWC. It is a shame though because I think he's clearly our best all round full back, he has the guile and creativity and pace that Kearney lost a while ago but I've always thought the basics of his game are underrated - just as good as Kearney in the air IMO and similarly is a good left footed kicking option. I think Ireland could really do with a second playmaker from 15 to improve the attack and then there is his understanding with Earls which makes for a very dangerous duo.
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Re: Ireland are the form favourites for the 6Nations

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