Political round up.............

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Post by superflyweight on Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:01 am

First topic message reminder :

LionsV2 wrote:
Galted wrote:

As much as I agree with you that much of the reason for the Leave vote was the racism and pig-ignorance of the likes of Lionsv2 and old people, I'm not sure the questions you're asking are particularly relevant.  I'd quite like a cut in local crime but couldn't name a single local criminal.

I beg your pardon?

No doubt the mods will do nothing about that.

He said you were “PIG IGNORANT”. I’ve heard of hard of hearing before but not hard of reading.

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Post by lostinwales on Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:31 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:To say he doesn't handle it well would mean you would need someone to compare him to...and there is no comparison.

I have been here since 1989 and I have never seen anybody take the abuse this guy does...I think it's disgusting..

Racist....Commie spy...Anti Semite...

Still he has 540,000 members and still he is favourite to be the next PM despite being the most left wing leader in modern times..A feat in itself..

Doubtless a Blairite who Wouldn't change the Status Quo would do better....

But Labour are going for the jackpot and I think it is 50/50 they will hit it..

There are at least 2 reasons why the stories are there
1) Because he has spent a lot of time with some unsavory characters in the past, for whatever reason. There is material to work with
2) Because he's not doing anything to change the narrative. You get some followers rewriting past history but in the vacuum of his leadership there isn't anything to take the attention away from those same stories.

I know you hate Blair but in same situation he'd be ripping up May on a daily basis and the main stories would all be about that.

The size of the Labour party membership doesn't matter, because it is not their votes who will put him into power. The rest of the electorate don't like him at all. Unless there are big changes the next election will involve a choice between the frying pan or the fire. Neither look good.

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Post by Samo on Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:40 pm

It took all of a day to find out that the terrorists he was supposedly laying a wreath for arent even buried in that country. Instead of saying that, he came away with the ridiculous “I was there but I wasnt taking part” which opened him up to even more ridicule.

So he either didnt know they werent buried there or he thought they were and tried to deflect.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:48 pm

Tony Blair had 60% of the papers backing him....The Sun..Guardian..Independent..Times...Mirror.

After his sell out to Murdoch...

Corbyn hasn't sold out.....He has the biggest membership in Europe and has nailed Social media..

The reason he can't destroy May....The media Barons are scared of him bringing in Leveson 2 and raiding Tax Havens.

Blair did things a different way..

Corbyn has no Comparison in a different media age.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu Sep 13, 2018 12:13 am

Odoxo poll....Macron.

Approval 29% -12..

Macron's most favourable pollster has him dying on his backside..

Ipsos...

Approve 25%
Disapprove 69%

Horrendous..


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Post by Duty281 on Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:09 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:still he is favourite to be the next PM despite being the most left wing leader in modern times

Boris Johnson is favourite to be the next Prime Minister.

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics/next-prime-minister

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:56 am

Chuku Ummuna the leader of the Labour rebels has said they Won't put Chequers through....If 40 Brexiteers vote against it I can't see how she gets it through..

It is a mess we could be crashing out..

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Post by SecretFly on Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:35 pm

Hmmm, it's going to be tougher telling the same tale if and when Macron goes again to the electorate.

Vote for me or you get Le Pen! Vote for me or you get Le Pen... and thirdly, Vote for me or you get Le Pen.

Voters will yawn. 'We voted for you and now we get Le Pen."


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Post by lostinwales on Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:42 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Tony Blair had 60% of the papers backing him....The Sun..Guardian..Independent..Times...Mirror.

After his sell out to Murdoch...

Corbyn hasn't sold out.....He has the biggest membership in Europe and has nailed Social media..

The reason he can't destroy May....The media Barons are scared of him bringing in Leveson 2 and raiding Tax Havens.

Blair did things a different way..

Corbyn has no Comparison in a different media age.

The papers backed Blair because he was a winner. Chicken and egg. They don't back Saint Corbyn because he's not. He's just like Brexit, whose supporters keep telling everyone it is a fantastic opportunity without giving the slightest bit of evidence as to how.

And I am surprised you think he is 'nailing social media' given that a) his personal ratings are appalling b) apparently 'nailing social media' means having his supporters hounding* anybody who doesn't agree with him or think he's the best thing since sliced bread.

He isn't new anymore, not that he ever was (just invisible for 33 years). People are wising up to him.

Also worth pointing out that the 'press barons' still have some say but with age and alternate availability of news their markets are all shrinking. It is a different world 20 years on. The main purpose of the 'media has got it out for him' argument seems to be in justifying to his supporters that theirs is a worthy cause. It has to be because there are enemies.

Look I want an alternative to the Conservative party. I want Labour to win the next election, but with a younger, smarter, more pragmatic and more inclusive leadership, not one mired in dogma from 40 years ago and increasingly intolerant of those who don't follow the one true way. This government is the worst ever, and Corbyn is helping them to stay in power.

*Not to be taken literally

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Post by lostinwales on Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:43 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Chuku Ummuna the leader of the Labour rebels has said they Won't put Chequers through....If 40 Brexiteers vote against it I can't see how she gets it through..

It is a mess we could be crashing out..

The insanity of arguing so hard for or against a deal that everybody knows is going to be refused by the EU anyway

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Post by Cardiff Dave on Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:26 pm

Which bankers, Gordon?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:25 am

Bloomberg poll...

Macron Approval rating.... 19% !!!!!..

Not good for Theresa May with Macron at rock bottom...When your rating is this bad you look for someone to look "Presidential" against....Brexit hard ball with the French coming up..

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:27 am

Ipsos

Con 39
Lab 37

Ipsos support among University Graduates

Lab 44
Con 22

Seems to be a perverse situation where the demographic Labour want to help most supports the Conservatives ie Blue Collar.....The demographic that the Conservatives are more interested in support Labour..The "Guardianista middle class"

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Post by Samo on Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:28 am

Latest YouGov poll: Who do you think would make the best Prime Minister?

Jeremy Corbyn: 23%
Theresa May: 36%
Dont Know: 39%

Corbyn somehow managing to come third in a two horse race.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:37 am

With respect forget Best PM polls and go by approval ratings..

Best PM ratings....Best President ratings etc.. are biased against the person who has never done the job...

If I have done the job and you haven't I have an advantage.

Approval ratings are always the best guide...

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:50 pm

YG
Con 40
Lab 36

BMG
Con 38
Lab 38

Mori
Con 39
Lab 37

Surv
Con 39
Lab 38

Problem with this GE talk...Is that the polls are pointing to the same result as last time..

Tories with a 2 point lead and short of a majority..

British politics is gridlocked....

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Post by GSC on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:43 pm

Corbyn being dragged kicking and screaming to a 2nd ref might be a game changer though
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:56 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:YG
Con 40
Lab 36

BMG
Con 38
Lab 38

Mori
Con 39
Lab 37

Surv
Con 39
Lab 38

Problem with this GE talk...Is that the polls are pointing to the same result as last time..

Tories with a 2 point lead and short of a majority..

British politics is gridlocked....

In order for Labour to unseat Conservatives they need a fair-sized swing in England and Wales of votes or massive change of policies in Scotland to ever become the force it once was there.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:32 am

The SNP will go in with Labour so Scotland isn't a problem..

Vote through votes for 16 year olds for concessions..

Then add 2 points to Labour's score next time..

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Post by lostinwales on Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:23 am

GSC wrote:Corbyn being dragged kicking and screaming to a 2nd ref might be a game changer though

He'll pay lip service to the idea and somehow the vote at the conference will never actually happen.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:09 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The SNP will go in with Labour so Scotland isn't a problem..

Vote through votes for 16 year olds for concessions..

Then add 2 points to Labour's score next time..

I most certainly would not bank on that. Apparently, at the Labour conference Labour are going to announce their mandate and it will include a part saying Scotland would be refused another independence referendum. No way would the SNP then prop up a minority Labour government if that is the case.
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Post by SecretFly on Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:54 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The SNP will go in with Labour so Scotland isn't a problem..

Vote through votes for 16 year olds for concessions..

Then add 2 points to Labour's score next time..

I most certainly would not bank on that. Apparently, at the Labour conference Labour are going to announce their mandate and it will include a part saying Scotland would be refused another independence referendum. No way would the SNP then prop up a minority Labour government if that is the case.

That's a bit of a foot shooter if any Labour mandate included something so curt and didactic.  Seems the 'Left' around the world is getting more and more brazen.  They're through with the persuasion experiment - it's now more an imposition of dogma that's the new fashion.  If we can't have democracy from democracy, we'll jump back to the more soothing power-principles of Marxism/Communism and ....................... em, what's that other sexy word doing the rounds these last number of years? - oh yeah, Fascism.  

Who needs old fashioned democracy?  China don't need it and they're the new hip kids on the International block, innit.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:27 pm

SecretFly wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The SNP will go in with Labour so Scotland isn't a problem..

Vote through votes for 16 year olds for concessions..

Then add 2 points to Labour's score next time..

I most certainly would not bank on that. Apparently, at the Labour conference Labour are going to announce their mandate and it will include a part saying Scotland would be refused another independence referendum. No way would the SNP then prop up a minority Labour government if that is the case.

That's a bit of a foot shooter if any Labour mandate included something so curt and didactic.  Seems the 'Left' around the world is getting more and more brazen.  They're through with the persuasion experiment - it's now more an imposition of dogma that's the new fashion.  If we can't have democracy from democracy, we'll jump back to the more soothing power-principles of Marxism/Communism and ....................... em, what's that other sexy word doing the rounds these last number of years? - oh yeah, Fascism.  

Who needs old fashioned democracy?  China don't need it and they're the new hip kids on the International block, innit.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-45618000

Oh the sheer hypocrisy of it all. Scotland had its say four years ago and no more to be said on it. The UK voted for Brexit less than 2 years ago and the same Labour party are ready to push for a second vote on it.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:34 pm

Samo wrote:Latest YouGov poll: Who do you think would make the best Prime Minister?

Jeremy Corbyn: 23%
Theresa May: 36%
Dont Know: 39%

Corbyn somehow managing to come third in a two horse race.

Approval ratings..

May -18
Corbyn -21...

Always go by Approval ratings....If you haven't been PM then people tend to go with someone who has done the job.


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Post by SecretFly on Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:59 pm

I wonder what Tom Watson's approval rating might be?

Once again, this Grima Wormtongue figure whispers directions to his boss, the boss he tried to shaft once before and yet somehow got to cling to the shoulder of Corbyn - now back in the limelight to give 'good' council from behind his thick rimmed spectacles.

The UK really is guilty of a great crime in not having Spitting Image still going and doing their duty to satirise probably the most important era in the Nation's history since the beginning of the 2nd World War. What a wasted opportunity for lots of fun. But then fun has become a dirty word in polite political circles of the new century

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Post by MrInvisible on Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:34 pm

@Secretfly, you're onto something there.  Considering the turbulent times we live in there is v little satire around on TV other than Have I Got News for You and the first few mins of the Last Leg.  I really do wish the Thick of It would make a return - would make the impending car-crash of Brexit more bearable if we could see Malcolm Tucker's take on it.

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Post by GSC on Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:02 am

lostinwales wrote:
GSC wrote:Corbyn being dragged kicking and screaming to a 2nd ref might be a game changer though

He'll pay lip service to the idea and somehow the vote at the conference will never actually happen.

And now it's turned into a choice between leaving with whatever deal is on the table or no deal. Shooting themselves in the foot
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Post by lostinwales on Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:08 am

Spitting image went mainstream

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Post by Uryu Ishida on Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:17 am

lostinwales wrote:Spitting image went mainstream

Chris Barrie for PM?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:07 am

GSC wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
GSC wrote:Corbyn being dragged kicking and screaming to a 2nd ref might be a game changer though

He'll pay lip service to the idea and somehow the vote at the conference will never actually happen.

And now it's turned into a choice between leaving with whatever deal is on the table or no deal. Shooting themselves in the foot

Most marginals are in Leave seats....

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Post by lostinwales on Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:15 am

SecretFly wrote:I wonder what Tom Watson's approval rating might be?  

Once again, this Grima Wormtongue figure whispers directions to his boss, the boss he tried to shaft once before and yet somehow got to cling to the shoulder of Corbyn - now back in the limelight to give 'good' council from behind his thick rimmed spectacles.

The UK really is guilty of a great crime in not having Spitting Image still going and doing their duty to satirise probably the most important era in the Nation's history since the beginning of the 2nd World War.  What a wasted opportunity for lots of fun.  But then fun has become a dirty word in polite political circles of the new century

I had thought that Watson was part of the problem. I now think he is at least pragmatic enough to see which way the wind is blowing rather than wallow in dogma, as Corbyn and McDonnal seem to.. It feels like both main parties are only trying to sell themselves on their accuracy when shooting themselves in the foot.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue Sep 25, 2018 1:40 am

GSC wrote:And now it's turned into a choice between leaving with whatever deal is on the table or no deal. Shooting themselves in the foot

Which is absolutely the right decision.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:33 am

Duty281 wrote:
GSC wrote:And now it's turned into a choice between leaving with whatever deal is on the table or no deal. Shooting themselves in the foot

Which is absolutely the right decision.

Maybe if you are some facist boot boy who wants to wreck the country and chase all those nasty non English types back home.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:34 am

lostinwales wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
GSC wrote:And now it's turned into a choice between leaving with whatever deal is on the table or no deal. Shooting themselves in the foot

Which is absolutely the right decision.

Maybe if you are some facist boot boy who wants to wreck the country and chase all those nasty non English types back home.

Lol.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:21 am

Opinium...

Lab 39
Con 37

Like I said a GE is pointless..

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:05 pm

Yougov....Con 42...Lab 36
Comres...Con 39...Lab 40

Helluva difference...

One has a Conservative 50 majority......The other a Labour coalition..

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:38 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Yougov....Con 42...Lab 36
Comres...Con 39...Lab 40

Helluva difference...

One has a Conservative 50 majority......The other a Labour coalition..
Would be interesting to see both the demographics of who is surveyed in these kinds of polls and also the wording of the questions asked.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:18 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Yougov....Con 42...Lab 36
Comres...Con 39...Lab 40

Helluva difference...

One has a Conservative 50 majority......The other a Labour coalition..
Would be interesting to see both the demographics of who is surveyed in these kinds of polls and also the wording of the questions asked.

BMG....Labour 40.....Con 35....

Ipsos...Are you confident any of the these leaders will get a good Brexit deal ??

Theresa May........Confident 4%......Fairly Confident 24%.....Not very confident 37%....No confidence 33%
Jeremy Corbyn....Confident 4%......Fairly Confident 24%.....Not very confident 25%....No confidence 42%
Boris Johnson......Confident 9%......Fairly Confident 24%.....Not very confident 20%....No confidence 44%




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Post by lostinwales on Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:56 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Yougov....Con 42...Lab 36
Comres...Con 39...Lab 40

Helluva difference...

One has a Conservative 50 majority......The other a Labour coalition..
Would be interesting to see both the demographics of who is surveyed in these kinds of polls and also the wording of the questions asked.

BMG....Labour 40.....Con 35....

Ipsos...Are you confident any of the these leaders will get a good Brexit deal ??

Theresa May........Confident 4%......Fairly Confident 24%.....Not very confident 37%....No confidence 33%
Jeremy Corbyn....Confident 4%......Fairly Confident 24%.....Not very confident 25%....No confidence 42%
Boris Johnson......Confident 9%......Fairly Confident 24%.....Not very confident 20%....No confidence 44%




Staggering that anybody has any confidence in any of those three to get any kind of deal sorted

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:14 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Yougov....Con 42...Lab 36
Comres...Con 39...Lab 40

Helluva difference...

One has a Conservative 50 majority......The other a Labour coalition..
Would be interesting to see both the demographics of who is surveyed in these kinds of polls and also the wording of the questions asked.

BMG....Labour 40.....Con 35....

Ipsos...Are you confident any of the these leaders will get a good Brexit deal ??

Theresa May........Confident 4%......Fairly Confident 24%.....Not very confident 37%....No confidence 33%
Jeremy Corbyn....Confident 4%......Fairly Confident 24%.....Not very confident 25%....No confidence 42%
Boris Johnson......Confident 9%......Fairly Confident 24%.....Not very confident 20%....No confidence 44%



Thanks Truss. The two earlier polls you posted data for though - I'm not suggesting you do, but I was curious re. demographics and questions given poll disparity. Hard to draw any conclusions from those sort of differences if the same things aren't asked of the same people.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:26 pm

GE17 Yougov statistics..

Socio Economic grade..

AB Con 46...Lab 38
C1 Con 41...Lab 43
C2 Con 47...Lab 40
DE Con 41...Lab 44

A/B/C1.....Con 44...Lab 40
C2/DE.......Con 44...Lab 42

Vote by Education Level...

Low...(No/few GCSE)....Con 55....Lab 33
Medium (A level)...........Con 45....Lab 40
High (Degree+)..............Con 32....Lab 49


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Post by Samo on Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:43 pm

Theresa May writes a newspaper column aimed at wooing centrist votes, while the Cult of Corbyn are screaming for mandatory deselection to get rid of any centrist that dare think differently from the dear leader.

Centrists win elections, and Corbyn supporters are going to find that out the hard way.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:34 pm

Bollox....

Labour members I imagine that spend all their spare time campaigning want some Mps out that clearly want Labour to lose under Corbyn..

Nothing wrong with that..

Thornberry is a Centrist who supported Cooper in 2015.

She is favourite to be next Leader....No one wants her out obviously.

Stop reading The Sun newspaper is my advice.


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Post by MrInvisible on Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:50 pm

The good 'ole 'Centre Ground' raising its head again.  If I had a £ for every time over the past few years journalists have claimed the Conservatives are claiming the Centre Ground, I could retire tomorrow from my job.

The 'Centre Ground' is such a shifting nebulous concept that no-one can properly define it.  That said, I would argue that, like him or not, one of Corbyn's achievements has been to shift this much vaunted Centre Ground leftwards as a result of the better than expected 2017 general election performance.  One example of this is how keen Theresa May and the government are so keen to distance themselves from austerity.

Given that May is having to keep on-side her hard right Brexiteer colleagues I would take claims of her claiming the Centre Ground with a pinch of salt.  Happy to be proven wrong if the government cancel Brexit, start investing properly in health and education, scrap free schools programme, increase top rate of income tax and increase spending on the welfare state, but lets be serious, its not going to happen under a Tory government.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:20 am

MrInvisible wrote:The good 'ole 'Centre Ground' raising its head again.  If I had a £ for every time over the past few years journalists have claimed the Conservatives are claiming the Centre Ground, I could retire tomorrow from my job.

The 'Centre Ground' is such a shifting nebulous concept that no-one can properly define it.  That said, I would argue that, like him or not, one of Corbyn's achievements has been to shift this much vaunted Centre Ground leftwards as a result of the better than expected 2017 general election performance.  One example of this is how keen Theresa May and the government are so keen to distance themselves from austerity.

Given that May is having to keep on-side her hard right Brexiteer colleagues I would take claims of her claiming the Centre Ground with a pinch of salt.  Happy to be proven wrong if the government cancel Brexit, start investing properly in health and education, scrap free schools programme, increase top rate of income tax and increase spending on the welfare state, but lets be serious, its not going to happen under a Tory government.

There was also a reaction against how awful the Cons were (and are) and votes for Labour in the hope that they were pro remain. Despite claims that the votes for Labour were all due to JC's magnificence the reality is probably a lot more messy. Both main parties seem to be gambling that the centre does not matter, because all they have to do is be better than each other. Call them 'centre' or call them undecided, but there are a lot of (currently) politically homeless people out there.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue Oct 09, 2018 12:54 am

lostinwales wrote:
MrInvisible wrote:The good 'ole 'Centre Ground' raising its head again.  If I had a £ for every time over the past few years journalists have claimed the Conservatives are claiming the Centre Ground, I could retire tomorrow from my job.

The 'Centre Ground' is such a shifting nebulous concept that no-one can properly define it.  That said, I would argue that, like him or not, one of Corbyn's achievements has been to shift this much vaunted Centre Ground leftwards as a result of the better than expected 2017 general election performance.  One example of this is how keen Theresa May and the government are so keen to distance themselves from austerity.

Given that May is having to keep on-side her hard right Brexiteer colleagues I would take claims of her claiming the Centre Ground with a pinch of salt.  Happy to be proven wrong if the government cancel Brexit, start investing properly in health and education, scrap free schools programme, increase top rate of income tax and increase spending on the welfare state, but lets be serious, its not going to happen under a Tory government.

There was also a reaction against how awful the Cons were (and are) and votes for Labour in the hope that they were pro remain. Despite claims that the votes for Labour were all due to JC's magnificence the reality is probably a lot more messy. Both main parties seem to be gambling that the centre does not matter, because all they have to do is be better than each other. Call them 'centre' or call them undecided, but there are a lot of (currently) politically homeless people out there.

If the Centrists were that excited...200,000 would join and reclaim labour.....£4/£5 a month ??..

Elections are a funny thing......People tend to vote for "Governments" and not who matches "their" criteria....Put it this way if I lived in a marginal and a new Centrist Party matched my Policy criteria....I'd still vote Labour to get the Tories out...or Lib Dem to get the Tories out.....Whoever is second..

Why we haven't got an "En Marche" over here....Until you have PR a new Party is pointless...

I'm not a lefty but I will vote Labour..........As I'm sure Blairites will vote Tory....

May's pitch is meaningless. Because I have no doubt Blair types voted Tory last time..

I vote a Govt in or out...............Like most people do and that's it..

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:03 am

I'll vote for who best fits my views. None of this tactical voting scheiss.

Your PR comment highlights just what a poor system we have in the U.K. Not fit for the modern world, but why would the main parties change it? Laughable.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:10 am

navyblueshorts wrote:I'll vote for who best fits my views. None of this tactical voting scheiss.

Your PR comment highlights just what a poor system we have in the U.K. Not fit for the modern world, but why would the main parties change it? Laughable.

I was speaking generally......I don't believe in renationalisation or people being taxed to death....I do believe in "aspiration" though it is an over-used word..

But I would vote Labour to get this terrible Govt out if I lived in a marginal......Which my seat was until 2015...(used to be Lib Dem)

I reiterate the point that Centrism just isn't enthusing for enough people....

It is basically moderation....Like I said people like me vote Govts in or out......Until we see PR.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue Oct 09, 2018 1:47 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:I'll vote for who best fits my views. None of this tactical voting scheiss.

Your PR comment highlights just what a poor system we have in the U.K. Not fit for the modern world, but why would the main parties change it? Laughable.

I was speaking generally......I don't believe in renationalisation or people being taxed to death....I do believe in "aspiration" though it is an over-used word..

But I would vote Labour to get this terrible Govt out if I lived in a marginal......Which my seat was until 2015...(used to be Lib Dem)

I reiterate the point that Centrism just isn't enthusing for enough people....

It is basically moderation
....Like I said people like me vote Govts in or out......Until we see PR.
True. It's called growing up, realism, etc.
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Post by SecretFly on Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:24 am

I hate the terms (Right/Left) but there is something so evolutionary/gene directed that makes us all so diametrically opposed on so many similar topics.  Humans want conflict (right/left) because that allows for the famous 'survival of the fittest' processes to operate.  Science says it is not a choice that humanity slices itself into these tribal camps, it's simply natural selection at work and us all trying to find an avenue (all at a subconscious level of course) for our genes to multiply and become 'dominant'.

Politics is just an extension of evolutionary tribal tendencies.  It's no surprise that if you like someone's opinion on one distinct topic then the more you hear them speak, the more common ground you find.  They repeat your thoughts and opinions over and over.  It's almost like there is a symbiosis.  I can listen to politicians in America or the UK and by the attitudes to many various topics, you just sense that they are part of your tribe.... it's almost an instinct feeling of family bond.  It's weird how it works - people from totally different backgrounds and upbringing to me but somehow finding the same thought process through many distinct topics.

We're just all either Right or Left thinking apes (with centrist apes trying to wait until the right and left crew kill each other off Wink ), and that's why it's often laughable how pointless the debates between the two are.  Mostly you're never going to be changing my foundation ideas and mostly I'm never going to change yours.  

So maybe Election Campaign debates themselves are the artificial and divisive element that should be done away with.  Maybe the manifestos are enough.  Read them and vote.  No QuestionTime schmaltz at all.

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Post by MrInvisible on Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:09 pm

@Superfly, re: 'tribal politics' - that's why conventional wisdom about winning elections has focused on swing voters in marginal constituencies, with the core vote sometimes taken for granted (e.g. New Labour neglecting the Labour heartlands and Cameron/Osborne focusing on more metropolitan 'liberal' voters).  However we have seen recently that some politicians have been able to follow a different strategy, by enthusing their base to turn out and vote, with radical/controversial policies, calculating that this support can offset losing some of the swing voters.  Trump is the obvious example of this - he's toxic amongst many, but in 2016 managed to get enough of his core vote out (whilst benefiting from a lack of enthusiasm amongst non voting electorate who couldn't bring themselves to vote for Hilary).  Corbyn also has adopted a similar approach (albeit from a much different position on the political spectrum), where the strategy has been to enthuse parts of the electorate who had been left cold by New Labour.

On the Election Campaign debates I was very sceptical when they came to the UK and still feel uncomfortable with the presidential style, which is at odds with our political system.  However, on the whole I think they are a force for good just about on balance as they have led to more people engaging with politics than previously, and they've given an opportunity for smaller parties to get their message across.

Finally, one of the features of modern politics which is neglected all too often by the mainstream media is the influence of corporate lobbyists.  I like the suggestion made by political comedian/activist Mark Thomas several years ago that all MPs should be forced to wear a jacket listing all the lobbyists they are in cahoots with, similar to the Formula 1 drivers with all their sponsors' logos.

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