England Six Nations Thread

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England Six Nations Thread

Post by Cumbrian on Thu 18 Jan 2018, 11:31 am

First topic message reminder :

Squad (From RFU Website):

Backs

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Inside backs
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins) * **
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Forwards

Back five
Gary Graham (Newcastle Falcons) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) *
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)

Front row
Lewis Boyce (Harlequins) *
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby) *
Jamie George (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs) *
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)

Players unavailable
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Will Spencer (Worcester Warriors)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Uncapped *
Apprentice player **

Fixtures:

*All kick-off times in GMT.


Italy v England
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Sunday 4th February 2018
Kick Off: 3:00pm

England v Wales
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 10th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

Scotland v England
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Saturday 24th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

France v England
Stade de France, Paris
Saturday 10th March 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

England v Ireland
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 17th March 2018
Kick Off: 2:45pm

Officialdom:

Italy v England

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

England v Wales

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Mathieu Reynal (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

Scotland v England

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

France v England

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

England v Ireland

Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 1: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)





Last edited by Cumbrian on Thu 18 Jan 2018, 11:50 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by cascough on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 10:33 am

Agreed. I think we've been excellent in broken play and those two could add to that further.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by BamBam on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 10:38 am

I really think Mercer could add a lot, he really runs on to the ball at pace and although not the biggest guy he almost always seems to get over the gainline

Its kind of similar to how a lot of NZ players seem to play, and what was so frustrating pre Eddie for us

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 11:04 am

Good lineout option as well.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Poorfour on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 11:14 am

The Telegraph was speculating that we will pick up where we were with the Samoa game - playing at a furious tempo and moving the ball around a lot. If we continue with that, then Simmonds and Mercer, who have acceleration and great leg drive instead of outright bulk, will come into their own because there will be more half gaps to aim at and potential for offloading.

Alternatively, Eddie could get Smith to teach one of his favourite tricks to Ford and Farrell. He likes sending all his runners one way, culminating in Sinckler coming in on an angled charge... then once the defence is fixed taking a pop pass back before the Sinck hits the line and spinning it back the other way. Get the timing right and it's exceptionally hard to defend against.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by beshocked on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 11:44 am

king_carlos wrote:1.Mako 2.Hartley (c) 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Lawes 6.Robshaw 7.Underhill 8.Simmonds
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Joseph 14.Watson 15.Brown

16.George 17.Hepburn 18.Sinckler 19.Launchbury 20.Mercer 21.Care 22.Slade 23.Nowell

That would be my prediction. Given the injuries I think it looks a pretty balanced squad with a reasonable bench as well.

Most worrying is that we are only an injury to any of Mako, Robshaw or Underhill away from very serious problems though.


This is probably the best England can field at the moment.

Bringing on most of the replacements early in the 2nd half.

I'd take off Brown at 45 minute mark, put Nowell to wing and Watson to full back.

Slade replacing Joseph at 45 mins.

George and Sinckler at 50, Launchbury at 55, Care, 60 Hepburn 60,

Mercer for Robshaw 65

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Scottrf on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 11:53 am

Isn't pre-planned subs what people criticised Lancaster for?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 12:03 pm

beshocked wrote:
king_carlos wrote:1.Mako 2.Hartley (c) 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Lawes 6.Robshaw 7.Underhill 8.Simmonds
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Joseph 14.Watson 15.Brown

16.George 17.Hepburn 18.Sinckler 19.Launchbury 20.Mercer 21.Care 22.Slade 23.Nowell

That would be my prediction. Given the injuries I think it looks a pretty balanced squad with a reasonable bench as well.

Most worrying is that we are only an injury to any of Mako, Robshaw or Underhill away from very serious problems though.


This is probably the best England can field at the moment.

Bringing on most of the replacements early in the 2nd half.

I'd take off Brown at 45 minute mark, put Nowell to wing and Watson to full back.

Slade replacing Joseph at 45 mins.

George and Sinckler at 50, Launchbury at 55, Care, 60 Hepburn 60,

Mercer for Robshaw 65


Youd love to pull Brown and Hartley off wouldnt you Beshocked


Agree it looks like a probable side or close to. The guys whove come into the 35 are mostly there to make up the numbers for injured players, they were well down the pecking order or seemingly off the radar before. Its different in the back row where Robshaw aside theres a glut of injuries to core players, make do with whats available. Jones made it pretty clear in his interviews that hes not looking at revolutionising the team. 
Despite all the unavailable EPS guys theres still the bulk of the side thats been evolving over the last two years there. Brown and Hartley get grumped at by the internet but still get picked, and I dont see who in this squad is pushing Brown out from fullback. Theres a good ballance between youth and experience in the side now

Its good we are starting with a relatively easy game to enable the new faces as chance to embed.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 12:10 pm

Pre-determined subs, especially in the backs, are completely beyond me. I really can't see the positives in doing this.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 12:23 pm

Did I just read that beshocked backs george starting on the bench?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by beshocked on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 2:13 pm

Gooseberry most definitely. I think both are on thin ice with only injuries and Jones belief in a lack of leadership options keeping both in the starting line up.

Okay it doesn't need to be pre-planned but the general idea would be yes - get off Hartley and Brown sooner rather than later. Of course if either is putting in MOTM performances, they would stay on longer.

If M.Vunipola is looking knackered, struggling at scrum time, make a call when to take him off.

Lancaster's problem was sometimes taking off players who were performing well.

You talk about new faces but the only new face would be Simmonds in the starting line up with a 5th choice LH on the bench and far down the pecking order backrower.

It's actually pretty conservative line up - Jones wanted to bring back Haskell too.

No 3rd 9 unearthed, no alternative to 15, Hartley's place in stone, no alternative at 12 or 13.


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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 2:21 pm

In the match day squad you're likely to Hepburn sinckler underhill simmonds or mercer possibly both. All have fewer than 10 caps. You then have sale or lozowski and maybe a inexperienced winger in the backs. Those are the guys likely to be challenging.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by TightHEAD on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 3:00 pm

Will Italy want to play rugby this time or just silly buggars?
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by TightHEAD on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 3:03 pm

Also I'm surprised so many people want England to experiment in the first game of the 6 nations.

Madness. Erm Headscratch

Pick your 1st choice XV and go and smash them.
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 3:10 pm

First choice players aren't available. Ypu mean most experienced?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by TightHEAD on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 3:14 pm

If players are not available then the ones that are, are in fact 1st choice.
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by cascough on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 3:15 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:First choice players aren't available. Ypu mean most experienced?

Where has this notion come from that we are missing a raft of first choice players?

I would say the only outright first choice player we are missing is Billy Vunipola.

Arguments to be made which wingers he would pick out of a full compliment of watson, may, nowell and daly (and only daly is missing) but a XV of MK,DH,DC,MI,CL,CR,SU,SS,BY,GF,JM,OF,JJ,AW,MB looks about as first choice as you can get. So I don't think we can moan too much about players missing. (plus we've got Marler, Te'o and Haskell to come back in).

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 3:28 pm

So in effect how much experimentation are people suggesting tight head?

Well its first choice and identified backups I suppose cas. The doubling up effects of Marler and genge. Vunipola and Hughes. Daly nowell. As you say te'o. All players who would likely be pushing for a match day squad.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 3:46 pm

Don't forget the promising future players...

Mercer, Marcus Smith are brought in as the "future"

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by TightHEAD on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 3:49 pm

Italy in Rome demand respect.

Futile changes to please the rugby press and those fans that only appear during the 6 nations begging for Cips to be selected is ridiculous.

The Ford/Farrell partnership should be retained as should Hartley's Captaincy.

'In Eddie we trust'
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 3:54 pm

So your match day team and bench are what tight head?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by beshocked on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 4:00 pm

Italy don't really demand respect till they actually beat England!

England should of course not be complacent but anything less than a 15 point win would be disappointing.

Tighthead don't you worry -Jones isn't going to rock the boat.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 4:03 pm

What team would you like to see beshocked.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by TightHEAD on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 4:06 pm

beshocked wrote:Italy don't really demand respect till they actually beat England!

Do you really believe that?

This is rugby not Soccer.
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by beshocked on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 4:07 pm

I've already said what I think England have to stick with in the circumstances. I just want to see certain players only playing 40-50 minutes.

I mean respect in the sense - believe that Italy are good enough to beat England. Logically they aren't but funny old things can happen in sport.

Someone might pick up a red card or two. Even if England go down to 14 it might not be enough for Italy.

Argentina still couldn't beat England when they were a man up for almost an entire match.

England are heavy favourites vs Italy.

I'll happily eat my words if Italy beat England 15 v 15.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 4:12 pm

Just thigh you may have wanted a few more changes to the strongest possible given your remarks on jones not rocking the boat and the new faces thing. I'm really hoping to see mercer play. O don't think long term simmonds will be considered an 8 for England but understand he's had a bit more time there over the autumn.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 8:22 pm

Mako, Hartley,Cole
Itoje, Lawes
Robshaw, Simmons, Underhill

Youngs, Ford,

Farrell, Slade,

May, Watson, Brown

George, Hepburn, Sinckler, Launchbury, Mercer, Care, Mallinder, Nowell

Only for Italy though, nothing continuous apart from Harry. Slade has looked superb for Chiefs at 13, Joseph isn't firing massively for Bath, Mallinder covers 10,12, 15 and Italy could be the chance to see if he can step up, plus we have Farrell if Ford goes off and Harry at 12

With Nowell as well on the bench all eventualities are covered, remember Ireland a few years ago, flankers in the centres.

Mallinder would at least provide another line out option.......................................................... Doh

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 19 Jan 2018, 8:44 pm

Id happily go with Slade at 13 aswell WPI.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Nottswasp on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 12:27 am

I also think Slade's form for Exeter deserves a start at 13.

Simmonds for me at international level plays more like a flanker than an 8th man.

Would like to have seen eddy bring in Dave ewers at 8 for his ball carrying.

I've noticed that a lot of people's 23's have most of the ball bigger carriers on bench rather than starting?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Nottswasp on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 12:32 am

The reason y I think robshaw will be doing more hard carrying this 6 nation's is because it's a case of needs must if the below don't start/play;
Jamie George
Kyle Sinckler
Joe Launchbury
Billy Vunipola
Nathan Hughes
Ben Te'o
Manu Tuilagi

Robshaw carriers ok but might have to pitch in with more to make up for those players stats

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by ChequeredJersey on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 8:19 am

Robshaw will do whatever job the team ask of him
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by yappysnap on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 6:47 pm

Robshaw is a good carrier into traffic, he can present well and pop out an offload. He's not quick but we've seen him break the line before too. He can't be the only carrier though, we can't rely on just one or two guys like the last 6Ns where everyone seemed to wait for Hughes to suddenly play as BV MK2.

We have the players, just need to be set up right and and all get on the ball at pace and hit contact hard.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by yappysnap on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 6:48 pm

An inform scrum half, shouting orders and getting them all moving would help a lot.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by lostinwales on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 7:00 pm

Nottswasp wrote:The reason y I think robshaw will be doing more hard carrying this 6 nation's is because it's a case of needs must if the below don't start/play;
Jamie George
Kyle Sinckler
Joe Launchbury
Billy Vunipola
Nathan Hughes
Ben Te'o
Manu Tuilagi

Robshaw carriers ok but might have to pitch in with more to make up for those players stats

Ben Te'o is supposed to be fit. George, Sinkler and Launchbury are fit and will be there. The two no.8's are out all tournament

Manu - Eddie is definitely doing the right thing. When that man is back pulling up trees and smashing teams single handed he'll be back in but lets let him get back to that level (if he can) first before pulling him back into the England squad

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Nottswasp on Sat 20 Jan 2018, 11:48 pm

George, Sinckler and Launchbury are there...but looking at people's 23s...they don't think they will start...which is my point.... would we rather start the big ball carriers...or have them on the bench to finish?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Cumbrian on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 9:32 am

Caught a fair bit of the Glasgow vs. Exeter game, was fairly impressed with Sam Simmond's contribution. He looks like he could be electric when the game opens up. Showed a bit of power to belie his size too. Still reckon he could be a good seven if he gets his jackaling game up to international standard. Thought his younger brother made an impressive little cameo too. Hope Slade's injury isn't too bad.
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Cumbrian on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 9:35 am

Post World Cup when Haskell and Robshaw hang up their boots (it has got to happen eventually!) A back-row of

06. Underhill
07. Simmonds
08. Vunipola

Looks to have potential to me.
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 10:28 am

Yeah. And that's not considering curry curry or mercer either.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by lostinwales on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 1:48 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah. And that's not considering curry curry or mercer either.

If Mercer keeps up his development and if his performance at U20 is a true reflection of his potential then I think he could be the next England captain.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 3:41 pm

And that's why Wade will not get capped....utter brain fart.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 4:54 pm

I'm going for a team of:

1. Mako
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Kruis
6. Itoje
7. Robshaw
8. Simmons

9. Care
10. Ford
11. May
12. Farrell
13. JJ
14. Watson
15. Brown

16. George 17. Sinks 18. Hepburn 19. Lawes 20. Mercer 21. Youngs 22. Loz 23. Nowell

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by king_carlos on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 5:04 pm

No Underhill Sarge?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 5:05 pm

king_carlos wrote:No Underhill Sarge?

I think he's just came back hasn't he? I'd send him back to Bath for some game time, give Mercer a run out against Italy.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Nottswasp on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 4:37 am

Sgt pooly...I think that could be the team eddy puts out.

The concern over robshaw at 7 is tempered by having Simmonds at 8... bringing the speed to get to the breakdown.

Lawes could partner Launchbury in the second row for me....plus would rather have Isiekwe on the bench than kruis if Lawes starts.

I think Itoje is the next captain as he will always make the team....whereas mercer as good as he is, would lose out to Billy Vunipola at 8.. Underhill at 7 and Itoje at 6 ...if everyone was fit

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by cascough on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 8:17 am

Nottswasp wrote:
The concern over robshaw at 7 is tempered by having Simmonds at 8... bringing the speed to get to the breakdown.

You have a concern over Robshaw not getting to a breakdown? That he shows up everywhere is often touted as his greatest asset. Just this week an Irish player (forget who) mentioned the England player Ireland hate playing against the most is Robshaw as he "is always at the breakdown slowing ball down". Or words to that effect anyway.

Edit - it wasn't a player, I'd just read a post by an Ireland fan on here. Although that obviously carries less weight, I thought it was the accepted wisdom that this was a strength of Robshaws. Surprised anyone thinks differently.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Nottswasp on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 8:34 am

More to do with getting to the breakdown first on attack to secure quick ball and preventing a turnover , Simmonds to bring the speed.

Itoje played well at the weekend at blindside...was a little worried at one point when he looked to have had banged his hip

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Poorfour on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 9:30 am

To be fair to Nottswasp, Robshaw isn't noted for his speed over the ground - Simmonds and Underhill are both better than that. He won't be the first player to an isolated break. His skill is in anticipating where he needs to be next and being there before anyone else thinks to be there, presumably something he learned off Dean Richards in his time at Quins.

However, over the course of an international all three of them are going to get to more places than Itoje. Which is why I hope that he plays lock and not 6.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 9:53 am

Itoje is not a very good 6 at international level. I'd rather play a combo of the abundance of flankers we have.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by SecretFly on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 9:58 am

I have a feeling Beshocked will be rushing in on a Charger soon... Whistle

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 10:00 am

I think even beshocked would concede he's a better lock and overall the pack balance suffers for shifting him or Lawes like last year into the 6 role.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Nottswasp on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 10:02 am

I don't have any stats to back this up...but I always got the impression that itoje has greater speed than robshaw and is more dynamic. I remember that try he created for Watson against Wales in 2016...he covered a good deal of ground at pace and had good hands.
With Lawes and itoje both on the field u have two players the size of locks but with the athleticism of flankers.

Juan Smith for the boks at blindside springs to mind when I see itoje play at flanker

Nottswasp

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