England Six Nations Thread

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England Six Nations Thread

Post by Cumbrian on Thu 18 Jan 2018, 11:31 am

First topic message reminder :

Squad (From RFU Website):

Backs

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Nathan Earle (Saracens) *
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints) *
Jonny May (Leicester Tigers)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Inside backs
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins) * **
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Forwards

Back five
Gary Graham (Newcastle Falcons) *
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby) *
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby)

Front row
Lewis Boyce (Harlequins) *
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby) *
Jamie George (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs) *
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)

Players unavailable
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby)
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)
Will Spencer (Worcester Warriors)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Uncapped *
Apprentice player **

Fixtures:

*All kick-off times in GMT.


Italy v England
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
Sunday 4th February 2018
Kick Off: 3:00pm

England v Wales
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 10th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

Scotland v England
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Saturday 24th February 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

France v England
Stade de France, Paris
Saturday 10th March 2018
Kick Off: 4:45pm

England v Ireland
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 17th March 2018
Kick Off: 2:45pm

Officialdom:

Italy v England

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

England v Wales

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Mathieu Reynal (France)
Assistant 2: Nic Berry (Australia)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)

Scotland v England

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

France v England

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)

England v Ireland

Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 1: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 2: Marius van der Westhuizen (South Africa)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)





Last edited by Cumbrian on Thu 18 Jan 2018, 11:50 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by doctor_grey on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 7:45 pm

Just went back and reviewed Young's knee injury.  Looked bad, and I suspect the reality is just how it looked.  Has anyone heard an update?  I think England need to be thinking carefully about the next 9(s) in the queue.  We may not see Ben Youngs playing Rugby for quite a while. Who is the next man up?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by ChequeredJersey on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 7:47 pm

Or Vellacot I guess. Or Wriggles who I wouldn’t like but has been playing very well for
Sarries
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by lostinwales on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 8:02 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Just went back and reviewed Young's knee injury.  Looked bad, and I suspect the reality is just how it looked.  Has anyone heard an update?  I think England need to be thinking carefully about the next 9(s) in the queue.  We may not see Ben Youngs playing Rugby for quite a while. Who is the next man up?
And can someone reassure me that it was just an accident?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Scottrf on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 8:07 pm

lostinwales wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Just went back and reviewed Young's knee injury.  Looked bad, and I suspect the reality is just how it looked.  Has anyone heard an update?  I think England need to be thinking carefully about the next 9(s) in the queue.  We may not see Ben Youngs playing Rugby for quite a while. Who is the next man up?
And can someone reassure me that it was just an accident?

He was tackling another player?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 8:11 pm

Wigglesworth for all his experience etc would be a wasted selection.

Pick Robson. The form SH and he's younger

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 8:15 pm

Also if England have a bit of luck with injuries and Eddie gets it right England could have an explosive, powerhouse of a back row in time for the world cup.

Billy V
Hughes
Simmonds
Underhill
Mercer
Robshaw

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by ChequeredJersey on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 8:19 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Also if England have a bit of luck with injuries and Eddie gets it right England could have an explosive, powerhouse of a back row in time for the world cup.

Billy V
Hughes
Simmonds
Underhill
Mercer
Robshaw

I think it’s worth keeping Hask, Clifford and Curry in mind too.
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 8:23 pm

The Currys and Clifford definately.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by lostinwales on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 8:24 pm

Scottrf wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Just went back and reviewed Young's knee injury.  Looked bad, and I suspect the reality is just how it looked.  Has anyone heard an update?  I think England need to be thinking carefully about the next 9(s) in the queue.  We may not see Ben Youngs playing Rugby for quite a while. Who is the next man up?
And can someone reassure me that it was just an accident?

He was tackling another player?

Youngs was passing the ball away from a ruck. An Italian tackled him. It was shoulder to knee though and I think the guy dove through the ruck

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by The Oracle on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 8:29 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Just went back and reviewed Young's knee injury.  Looked bad, and I suspect the reality is just how it looked.  Has anyone heard an update?  I think England need to be thinking carefully about the next 9(s) in the queue.  We may not see Ben Youngs playing Rugby for quite a while. Who is the next man up?
And can someone reassure me that it was just an accident?

He was tackling another player?

Youngs was passing the ball away from a ruck. An Italian tackled him. It was shoulder to knee though and I think the guy dove through the ruck

No, an Italian cleared out another England player in the ruck and drove that player into Youngs’ leg. Nothing malicious. Just bad luck.
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 8:36 pm

Yup bad luck. Think he cleared out hartley and youngs looking the other way couldn't do anything about it. Nor could the other 2.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by lostinwales on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 8:38 pm

Good. I didn't want to get paranoid over this

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by The Oracle on Sun 04 Feb 2018, 8:40 pm

Yeah he had his legs wide with one leading so he could get down low and spin the pass away, and was looking the other way. Complete accident.

Found a video of it. Warning, the scream is not nice:

https://www.ruck.co.uk/watch-ben-youngs-suffers-horrible-knee-injury-screams-pain-six-nations/
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by cascough on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 10:14 am

Right...Hartley vs George. I know, I know, but hear me out.

There's generally 3 things that are said about this pair.

1)Hartley is captain, so he'll be starting and George will be finishing for as long as this is the case.

2)George is the superior player and so should start.

3)Hartley starting and George finishing is the best use of them. Hartley won't change a game coming off the bench, George will. Therefore if Hartley doesn't start, he doesn't play.

I think we can all agree that point 1 is irrefutable. However, should Jones give the captaincy to someone else, I've got a slight issue with point 2, which is leading me onto having a bigger issue with point 3.

Point 2...say what you wan't about George's impressive loose play, but I don't think his arrows are as good as Hartley's. There's nothing between them in the scrum for me. That being the case, I think of Job 1, and I can't help but think that Hartley is the superior player. Now someone else might look at it and think, okay Hartley's lineout is better, but everything else is in George's favour, George is the better player. I'd be happy to concede that, but if you agree Hartley's lineout is better then that takes me to point 3.

3...I've said before about the finisher thing that people can often get sucked into thinking that coming off the bench is all about bringing tempo to a game. In a nutshell, people tend to single out pace (in each respective position) as being the most important attribute and often go further than that by saying if a player hasn't got it, they're unlikely to come on and change a game. I've always maintained being a good finisher is about coming on and being good. The situation doesn't always call for an injection of tempo, sometimes it needs closing out, but invariably whatever the situation calls for, executing basics is key. You can be as fast or as powerful as you like, but if you keep dropping the ball you're not going to positively affect the game. With that in mind, I'm beginning to think Hartley off the bench would be a very positive thing. He's unlikely to make a game breaking play (I'd question why you'd need that from your hooker anyway) but if we need to close a game out he will make sure that when we have a lineout, we hold onto our own ball. When we kick to the corner to win it in the drying moments he will make sure we have a platform to attack from. I just don't get that feeling from George unfortunately.


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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by BamBam on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 10:26 am

Its an interesting view cascough.

I've always thought that its very difficult for any hooker to come in off the bench and have to throw in straight away - given subs are made at a break in play, there's quite a high likelihood that it will be at a lineout, so timing is very important

If George is the better hooker (my view is that he is), then we shouldn't be having any doubts about his ability to make that throw. If he is on around the 50-60 min mark, that should be ample time for him to be warmed up, most likely have thrown in 3-4 times already - he should be ready for that pressure throw in the last 5 mins

I also think that by giving Hartley the sub role as he is a better thrower, we're not considering pressure throws earlier in the game. Is a throw at either 5m line 2 mins before half time not a big moment in the game?

George has to prove he is undeniably a better option than Hartley in the loose and the set piece, and that his ability is worth losing Hartley's undeniable (unless your v2 name rhymes with deblocked) leadership qualities

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Scottrf on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 10:33 am

Jones makes a lot of a deal around having the right people on the field in the closing minutes because that's when games are won or lost. I guess the question is, why not the captain?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by cascough on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 10:39 am

Scottrf wrote:
mid_gen wrote:Scotland aren't as bad as their scoreline today, they will play better and I'm think they'll manage more than one win. Still have kinda a bad feeling about the trip to Murrayfield despite today's performance.

Now...about bloody time we turned up on day 1, get the BP and at least +30 points difference

Why? Not only are we a better team, we are a bad matchup for them.

We ruthlessly exploit the errors they inevitably make, and shut down most of their play with great defence.

Yup. I find it a little odd that last year, everyone put the England game down as an aberration, as if that's that. Conveniently forgetting just how bad Ireland were in the first half. Or how poor Scotland were in France, against an absolute shambles of a French side. Or what a terrible, terrible game of rugby the Italy game was. That Italy game in particular was probably the worst 80 minutes of rugby Scotland played last year. Everyone sees 29-0 and chalks it up as a masterclass, but it was a particularity dire game of rugby. Scotland did NOT play well in that game and they made error after error. Italy probably as bad as I've seen them. I say worst 80 mins of Rugby played because even in the England game Scotland played some nice rugby and scored some good tries. To be fair, actually it probably wasn't as bad as the France game! Point is, there's always 2 sides to everything, but for some reason whilst England aren't allowed to forget about when maybe they didn't play very well for a period, it's all brushed under the carpet with Scotland and their successes are focused upon. It's odd given that out of the two of us, it's us that keep winning!

I said it before the tournament, but Wales is the biggest game for England. Forget Ireland, by the time we get there, the tournament could already be decided (as it has been the last 2 years). If we beat Wales, we can lose to one of Sco or Fra and still have it in our own hands for the last weekend. And it'll be at home, happy days. Lose to Wales, and they are really going to fancy a Grand Slam and that could be it for England.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Poorfour on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 10:40 am

I'm not sure I agree with your characterisation of 3, cascough. For me, the choice of who is a finisher and who is a starter is more about whether they play better in a more structured or less structured phase of the game.

For instance, Care can be a bit ponderous when defences are set, but has a real killer instinct against a tiring defence, especially when he's fresh. It will be interesting to see if he remains a finisher once a new scrum half is settled into the squad - my guess would be that he may start a couple of games but if replacement for Youngs goes well will be back on the bench before the end of the tournament.

George, for me, is someone whose carrying can have a bigger impact late in the game, and whose occasional lineout inaccuracy may be less of an issue against a defence who are losing a little mental edge.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Scottrf on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 10:43 am

As a counterpoint, the lineout is more of an attacking weapon late in the game, and more important if, for example, you just have to keep possession to win the game. I personally don't think there's enough difference in their throwing for it to be a consideration though.


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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by BamBam on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 11:00 am

Scottrf wrote:As a counterpoint, the lineout is more of an attacking weapon late in the game, and more important if, for example, you just have to keep position to win the game. I personally don't think there's enough difference in their throwing for it to be a consideration though.

I'd agree with this, you've said what I was trying to above far more succinctly Laugh

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by cascough on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 11:06 am

Poorfour wrote:I'm not sure I agree with your characterisation of 3, cascough. For me, the choice of who is a finisher and who is a starter is more about whether they play better in a more structured or less structured phase of the game.

For instance, Care can be a bit ponderous when defences are set, but has a real killer instinct against a tiring defence, especially when he's fresh. It will be interesting to see if he remains a finisher once a new scrum half is settled into the squad - my guess would be that he may start a couple of games but if replacement for Youngs goes well will be back on the bench before the end of the tournament.

George, for me, is someone whose carrying can have a bigger impact late in the game, and whose occasional lineout inaccuracy may be less of an issue against a defence who are losing a little mental edge.

Good points one and all. Is the game always less structured though (after 60 mins)? I'm not sure that it is, certainly not between two top sides. If anything, these games can often tighten up and become exchanges of 3 points. In those scenarios, then I'm calling for the guy who does the right thing at the right time. I think of close scorelines England have been involved in last year and they've all been really tight "arm wrestle affairs". France, Wales and Ireland last year spring to mind. In fact we spurned a great opportunity to win in Ireland due to a missed lineout. Also think how tight the last two Lions tests became. Talking about the hooker position, for me given how important the lineout is, Job 1 is to nail that, and that goes if its a structured or unstructered game.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by cascough on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 11:10 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
I think Nowell would be a cracking 13. We spoke about this a year or two ago. The problem is he doesn't play there for Exeter...though that means nothing to Eddie.

Eggchasers pod made a good point about Nowell to 13...One of the strengths of Nowell's wing play, is that he can come infield and pop up all over the place. He's high involvement. They suggested he wouldn't get the chance to do this as much at 13 given what an important position it is both in attack and defence.

I quite fancy him for fullback myself. I think he has really good contact skills and footwork and would still be able to hit the line wherever he pleases. Plus it would hide his lack of top line speed a little better.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 11:31 am

Where do we expect changes then? Foe me I think he'll bring Joseph back in and bring Robson onto the bench. I'd personally bring underhill.in but can't see it.especially with shingler a threat in the lineout. Brown gave way which is.unusual but can't see him being dropped despite Nowell looking very busy.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by eirebilly on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 11:38 am

cascough wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
I think Nowell would be a cracking 13. We spoke about this a year or two ago. The problem is he doesn't play there for Exeter...though that means nothing to Eddie.

Eggchasers pod made a good point about Nowell to 13...One of the strengths of Nowell's wing play, is that he can come infield and pop up all over the place. He's high involvement. They suggested he wouldn't get the chance to do this as much at 13 given what an important position it is both in attack and defence.

I quite fancy him for fullback myself. I think he has really good contact skills and footwork and would still be able to hit the line wherever he pleases. Plus it would hide his lack of top line speed a little better.

I have felt this for some time. Nowell has cracking pace, runs good lines, solid under the high ball and is solid in defence. Think he has the makings of a very good 15. I cant see him moving to 13 as that would constrict his style of play.
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 11:44 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Where do we expect changes then? Foe me I think he'll bring Joseph back in and bring Robson onto the  bench. I'd personally bring underhill.in but can't see it.especially with shingler a threat in the lineout. Brown gave way which is.unusual but can't see him being dropped despite Nowell looking very busy.

I cannot see too many changes happening, other than that forced at SH. Until Billy or Hughes are fit, I feel we will continue to see locks wearing 6 and all four in the 23. My gut feel is that Te'o will stay in the starting XV. So overall I expect just one change.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by beshocked on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 11:46 am

This England performance was better than most of the dross, England served up in last year's competition so we should be positive.

I can understand a bit more why Jones is retaining Brown and Hartley. Neither did anything particularly special, both gave away penalties but both were generally solid.

They lack the ball skills and X factor of other players but have been reliable generally.

Even though I still believe England can improve at 2 and 15, Jones wants to go for experience.

Simmonds showed what a change in a position can bring though.


As for replacement 9s, either Robson or Spencer would be my choice.

cascough for you to question George's lineout throwing is ignoring that statistically George generally is very good. George probably beats Hartley actually- certainly at club level anyway.

Yes, George lost a lineout vs Italy but then again Hartley lost one key lineout vs Saracens at Allianz Park (2 weeks ago?) - you had 2 good lineout operators stealing a lineout.

Parisse is one of Italy's few top class players.


I still feel Hartley plods along outside the set piece. Everyone else seemed to outperform him around the park. For now his reliability in the set piece is enough to see him retained though.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-5350327/Italy-15-46-England-PLAYER-RATINGS.html


I feel this is a pretty accurate player rating. Though perhaps I'd give Itoje a 5, I'd like to see him up his game vs Wales.

Too many silly penalties.


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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Scottrf on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 11:48 am

I thought Brown actually messed up some of the things he's supposed to be picked for. Knocked on a high ball, put in an awful attempt at a try saving tackle etc.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by beshocked on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 11:53 am

Fair enough but would you drop Brown?

Could have an electric back three of Watson,Nowell and May - sure it lacks a bit of control but would certainly have the potential to sparkle.


I have to say that Ford-Farrell combo has now won me over - it worked well. Sure the circumstances were favourable - not going to be the same vs Wales or Ireland necessarily but it functioned nicely.

Farrell has really surprised me with his line breaks, he seems to be getting through gaps I wouldn't think he'd be able to but then again could be the opposition?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 11:56 am

Scottrf wrote:I thought Brown actually messed up some of the things he's supposed to be picked for. Knocked on a high ball, put in an awful attempt at a try saving tackle etc.

It was not a great day from Brown. Watson scoring perhaps helps Brown stay though as the LI/Bath lad looks such an attacking threat on the wing that you have to wonder if he could be as effective at FB. Of course Watson was skinned once on the wing too and has his own defensive issues.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 11:57 am

They both did it vs australia too I think. Did look as if they were both looking for the break more. In general. I was pretty pleased with the lines most of the team were going for. Pack seemed to have upped their game there.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Scottrf on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 12:00 pm

beshocked wrote:Fair enough but would you drop Brown?

I don't know. It's always going to be the game where other players look better than him to be honest. I think I probably would be happier with May, Nowell, Watson at this point, but then we don't have bench cover.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by propdavid_london on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 12:04 pm

I thought Watson looked much better on the wing than at 15.
For me it was when he let the ball bounce a number of times when he could have taken it cleanly. Chasers with a bit more coordination would have been right on him and little errors like that could have cost tries and field position.

Having said that, Brown didn't have a great game - perhaps not fully recovered from injury!
I thought May was caught out of position a number of times too and perhaps having Nowell and Watson starting against Wales would be an interesting option.

Any news yet on Youngs? Were Eddie to call up another 9 who do we think it would be as Robson doesn't appear to be liked by Eddie.


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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 12:06 pm

Papers are saying Wiggy or Spencer uppermost in Jones thoughts.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 12:13 pm

I would be disappointed in that decision, either one,should jones make it LT. Wigglesworth is getting on will slow down play when he comes on but I suppose if we want to continue kicking away good ball he's up there. Spencer hasn't pushed on at all and is a good level below Robson. I don't see any logic in picking him.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by mid_gen on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 12:14 pm

propdavid_london wrote:I thought Watson looked much better on the wing than at 15.  
For me it was when he let the ball bounce a number of times when he could have taken it cleanly.  Chasers with a bit more coordination would have been right on him and little errors like that could have cost tries and field position.

Was coming to post the same after watching highlights again. Watson is a better winger than a 15. Don't fancy calamity May at full back (although he's good with ball in hand). Not Brown's best game...but again we're back to...which do we have any better 15s?

I can't think of anyone really putting their hand up, although I would like to see Nowell on the pitch more, even though it's not his position....

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by majesticimperialman on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 12:16 pm

Any one have an update on Ben Youngs?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by propdavid_london on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 12:23 pm

BBC article from Jones just says he is having assessment today. Definitely out for Wales - but thought that might have been obvious.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by lostinwales on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 12:47 pm

It's hard with Brown but I too feel that he wasn't really at the races which is a cause for concern, because he's someone who always gives everything.

May was generally really good. He gave the scoring pass for both of Watson's tries and also made the 2nd one with his initial break. It's nice seeing him getting more involved and looking for work. Nice also seeing Watson clearing Parisse out of a ruck....

So yeah if there is a change it will be Watson to 15 and Nowell coming in. Nowell did well in his cameo but I thought both starting wings were good.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by munkian on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 1:35 pm

lostinwales wrote:It's hard with Brown but I too feel that he wasn't really at the races which is a cause for concern, because he's someone who always gives everything.

May was generally really good. He gave the scoring pass for both of Watson's tries and also made the 2nd one with his initial break. It's nice seeing him getting more involved and looking for work. Nice also seeing Watson clearing Parisse out of a ruck....

So yeah if there is a change it will be Watson to 15 and Nowell coming in. Nowell did well in his cameo but I thought both starting wings were good.

Brown has been fairly meh for ages now, I'm not sure why he keeps getting picked.

I used to really worry when he was playing Wales but I will be happy if he is playing on Saturday, hes greedy and not particularly solid in defence either.
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by lostinwales on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 1:53 pm

munkian wrote:
lostinwales wrote:It's hard with Brown but I too feel that he wasn't really at the races which is a cause for concern, because he's someone who always gives everything.

May was generally really good. He gave the scoring pass for both of Watson's tries and also made the 2nd one with his initial break. It's nice seeing him getting more involved and looking for work. Nice also seeing Watson clearing Parisse out of a ruck....

So yeah if there is a change it will be Watson to 15 and Nowell coming in. Nowell did well in his cameo but I thought both starting wings were good.

Brown has been fairly meh for ages now, I'm not sure why he keeps getting picked.

I used to really worry when he was playing Wales but I will be happy if he is playing on Saturday, hes greedy and not particularly solid in defence either.

Oh he had a couple of good outings in the Autumn. I think the main concern is that Watson looks better on the wing and he's probably the only genuine competition at 15, given the squad.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by dummy_half on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 2:13 pm

Munkian

Brown was quite poor last 6Ns but was then outstanding in the summer tour and a bit up and down in the AIs. He's probably still our most reliable 15, and at his best (which we've only seen sparks of since 2016) he is a top class operator.

Others have already made the point that Watson potentially offers a lot of threat ball in hand from 15, but is nowhere near as tactically and technically solid as Brown - in his 15 minutes at FB yesterday, his positioning was poor allowing kicks to get to ground and so not letting him exploit the spaces as we hope he will. At the moment the team is better with Watson on the wing and Brown at FB than with (say) Watson at 15 and Nowell at 11.

I think quite a lot of us are looking for Daly to make the 15 jersey his in the next year, but obviously he's injured at the moment.

I do though understand your comment as an opposing fan not fearing Brown (at the moment). I've felt the same about Alun-Wyn Jones for years - Wales fans talk him up yet I don't fear what he is going to do to us in the same way that I did with Paul O'Connell for example (or Gethin Jenkins as a Welsh example)...
This isn't meant as a dig at all, and I think we all have a tendency to see the best in our team and not in opposition players (well, except the Irish, who can only see the best in players from their Province)

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by munkian on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 2:32 pm

dummy_half wrote:Munkian

Brown was quite poor last 6Ns but was then outstanding in the summer tour and a bit up and down in the AIs. He's probably still our most reliable 15, and at his best (which we've only seen sparks of since 2016) he is a top class operator.

Others have already made the point that Watson potentially offers a lot of threat ball in hand from 15, but is nowhere near as tactically and technically solid as Brown - in his 15 minutes at FB yesterday, his positioning was poor allowing kicks to get to ground and so not letting him exploit the spaces as we hope he will. At the moment the team is better with Watson on the wing and Brown at FB than with (say) Watson at 15 and Nowell at 11.

I think quite a lot of us are looking for Daly to make the 15 jersey his in the next year, but obviously he's injured at the moment.

I do though understand your comment as an opposing fan not fearing Brown (at the moment). I've felt the same about Alun-Wyn Jones for years - Wales fans talk him up yet I don't fear what he is going to do to us in the same way that I did with Paul O'Connell for example (or Gethin Jenkins as a Welsh example)...
This isn't meant as a dig at all, and I think we all have a tendency to see the best in our team and not in opposition players (well, except the Irish, who can only see the best in players from their Province)

OK
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by ChequeredJersey on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 3:16 pm

I don’t think Watson looks like a FB and he is excellent wife out on the wing.

If any of the currently available wingers should come in for Brown vs Wales, which is a call you can make an argumente for either way, I suggest Nowell

He does play FB. Not as much as Watson, but from what I’ve seen he is as good at least in terms of positioning at the back and better defensively (though not offensively) in the air. He also does more coking into the line rather than use pace outside, attacks the inside of the man and is a powerful carrier with a strong leg drive, meaning he can do Brown’s job of making hard yards
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Barney McGrew did it on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 3:42 pm

Putting his wife on the other wing would be a brave move.
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 3:43 pm

lostinwales wrote:
munkian wrote:
lostinwales wrote:It's hard with Brown but I too feel that he wasn't really at the races which is a cause for concern, because he's someone who always gives everything.

May was generally really good. He gave the scoring pass for both of Watson's tries and also made the 2nd one with his initial break. It's nice seeing him getting more involved and looking for work. Nice also seeing Watson clearing Parisse out of a ruck....

So yeah if there is a change it will be Watson to 15 and Nowell coming in. Nowell did well in his cameo but I thought both starting wings were good.

Brown has been fairly meh for ages now, I'm not sure why he keeps getting picked.

I used to really worry when he was playing Wales but I will be happy if he is playing on Saturday, hes greedy and not particularly solid in defence either.

Oh he had a couple of good outings in the Autumn. I think the main concern is that Watson looks better on the wing and he's probably the only genuine competition at 15, given the squad.

I still think I'd like to have seen Elliott trialled at 15.

Not as physical or intense, but would offer a lot in that position.

Leave Watson to work on becoming a world class winger....

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 4:18 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Putting his wife on the other wing would be a brave move.

I don't know about that, she's quite experienced at taking balls deep.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by lostinwales on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 4:20 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
munkian wrote:
lostinwales wrote:It's hard with Brown but I too feel that he wasn't really at the races which is a cause for concern, because he's someone who always gives everything.

May was generally really good. He gave the scoring pass for both of Watson's tries and also made the 2nd one with his initial break. It's nice seeing him getting more involved and looking for work. Nice also seeing Watson clearing Parisse out of a ruck....

So yeah if there is a change it will be Watson to 15 and Nowell coming in. Nowell did well in his cameo but I thought both starting wings were good.

Brown has been fairly meh for ages now, I'm not sure why he keeps getting picked.

I used to really worry when he was playing Wales but I will be happy if he is playing on Saturday, hes greedy and not particularly solid in defence either.

Oh he had a couple of good outings in the Autumn. I think the main concern is that Watson looks better on the wing and he's probably the only genuine competition at 15, given the squad.

I still think I'd like to have seen Elliott trialled at 15.

Not as physical or intense, but would offer a lot in that position.

Leave Watson to work on becoming a world class winger....

Yeah you are not alone in thinking that, but he's not available.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by ChequeredJersey on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 5:05 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Putting his wife on the other wing would be a brave move.

I'd also like to add for the RFU's lawyers out there than "coking" was a typo rather than a claim that Nowell is in with the Stevens crowd
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by thomh on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 5:12 pm

"Coking into the line"

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by lostinwales on Mon 05 Feb 2018, 5:13 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
Barney McGrew did it wrote:Putting his wife on the other wing would be a brave move.

I'd also like to add for the RFU's lawyers out there than "coking" was a typo rather than a claim that Nowell is in with the Stevens crowd

White line fever...

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