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Post by beninho on Sun 07 Jan 2018, 12:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

Stoke have spent 10 years in the premier league, they are bottom 3 and dumped out the cup by coventry. The perspy is that they are an established prem team, hughes has them shipping goals, not scoring and being certainties for relegation. They have spent big money on wimmer who has struggled, imbula who is out on loan and berahino who cant score, bojan is well paid and on the bench for alaves. Stoke fans have perspective, hughes had no clues. Surprised he stayed this long.

My family are potters!

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Post by kwinigolfer on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 12:14 pm

Just like DT.

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Post by pedro on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 12:21 pm

Exactly digs, he's pushing the envelope. Like with Georgia and Ukraine. And like the brat in school. But heck, every disease has it's cure. And I don't know what the cure is here, but I think I know what it isn't. For sure we should pick our battles. And it's not like MI6 or CIA are angels themselves when it comes to foreign involvement, so it's also very easy to look like a hypocrite - an image the West has been fighting since WW1 and which does us no good.

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Post by JAS on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 12:40 pm

There's the other aspect that's not being discussed yet. i.e. yes it may well have been a VP sanctioned Russian State move, not just for provocation purposes but to see and measure the reaction both in Britain and in the wider international community. The timing could also be very clever as Western logic would say...why give yourself such a diplomatic headache within a few days of an election (of course Putin will be not in the least bit worried about such minor distractions).

On the other hand what if it was a rogue Russian mafioso who really had a grudge against the victim and had enough power and influence to gain access to the nerve agent without VP's blessing. That then puts VP in an entirely less powerful position.

Very much doubt the real truth will ever come out definitively.


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Post by pedro on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 12:59 pm

JAS wrote:The timing could also be very clever as Western logic would say...why give yourself such a diplomatic headache within a few days of an election (of course Putin will be not in the least bit worried about such minor distractions).
The timing is obvious vis a vis the election as it will make Putin look strong in the public opinion. It's a man that likes to portray himself as a macho. He shouldn't need it, but probably just can't help it.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 1:42 pm

pedro wrote:
JAS wrote:The timing could also be very clever as Western logic would say...why give yourself such a diplomatic headache within a few days of an election (of course Putin will be not in the least bit worried about such minor distractions).
The timing is obvious vis a vis the election as it will make Putin look strong in the public opinion. It's a man that likes to portray himself as a macho. He shouldn't need it, but probably just can't help it.


Please don't give Drumpf ideas, he'll be on the horn to Vlad in no time. Wonder who he'll choose as the victim?

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Post by Roller_Coaster on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 1:56 pm

raycastleunited wrote:
Diggers wrote:In a word, yes.

In a word, Diane Abbott can't add up

Ha ha. One of my favourite Syd Waddell's was "there's only one word for that, magic darts"

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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 5:20 pm

pedro wrote:
JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:I'd be much more happy with a centre leftist than a militant commie like Corbyn. There are simply too many dodgy stories about who he has supported politically in the past by the right wing rags that I'm making a judgement that at least some it must be true and to give Idi Amin a cabinet post would be catastrophic.

Cheers for the NHS link. Shame I need it in the first place though. The question is, will it be just like every other charity where the NHS will see about 10% of my hard earned?

Fixed the first part for you. All things considered I'm all over the place on the right/left spectrum depending on the subject. But the longer this shower drift on with their media assisted character assassination of Corbyn, the further left I drift on all subjects. That being said I'd agree on Abbot who is pretty much Labour's biggest electoral liability. A great constituency MP with a huge majority but simply NOT Front Bench material.

I do find it quite odd that the same people who condemn Blair for wading into Iraq based on "flimsy" evidence now condemn Corbyn as traitorous for wanting to make certain of evidence before wading into a new cold war. Those people can't have it both ways.
I completely agree with Corbyn re. the Russia thing. He may be a commie, but he's assesssment is correct. It's like the West absolutely wants and needs an enemy. Russia here, Russia there, Russia everywhere. God dammit, people are obsessed with Russia. If the poison used is only produced in Russia it is either a) pretty obvious Russia wants to send a signal - which they of course know, or b) a conspiracy towards Russia. Regardless it was pretty toe wrenching to hear May last week accuse Russia of potentially "allowing" the poison to be stolen (that is if they didn't do it themselves). Like May has any control of what is stolen from UK labs or even smuggled into/out of the UK?

I admit that it is very likely that it is a deliberate action by the Russia intelligence agency (option a)) and they do it to send a signal to defectors and/or provoke the UK. But I think the West needs to sit back and figure out how to handle Russia in the broader picture. For sure Uncle Vladimir is sitting back in Kreml grinning over the UK/West not knowing what to make on themselves. Again.

But my point is: Why escalate the whole thing and potentially start a new cold war? Why not talk to the man? Like DT now wants to talk to Little Rocket Man. Why risk military confrontation just beacuse we are dealing wilth bullies/big egos/provocateurs. It's not worth it. Russia does not pose a defacto military threat to Europe, as they would be pretty stupid to engage with Nato.
In this context it's ironic also that the European (and American) Political Correctness, those who made a career out of advocating "dialogue", are now among the most sabre rattling of the bunch. Funny how things change.
Seriously? I mean, really?? Let's see:

Chechnya
Georgia
Crimea
Ukraine
Syria
Litvinenko
Salisbury
Add to the above the use of economic terrorism i.e. turning off the gas pipes etc.

The simple fact that Russia has these weapons and hasn't declared to the CPW, despite being a signatory, is a breech of international law. Russia is a gangster nation, ruled by a de facto dictator and a bunch of serious crooks.
The mistake 'we' made is thinking that Gorbachev/Yeltsin etc heralded some sort of change for the better. No. When you've got people like Zhironovsky around and Lugovoy made into a politician post-Livinenko you know they aren't 'better'.

Re. Corbyn and Iraq etc. I can see the logic, but this is almost certainly utter BS. It's not about a cooked up dossier etc. This was a Russian military WMD in Salisbury. May was right - it's either a deliberate State action or monumental idiocy by the same State in keeping its WMD secure. Either way, they're responsible. By all means keep the diplomatic channels open (as if they'd ever close), but please can we do it with some sort of threat.

This guy (link below) seems to suspect they're just dumb i.e. didn't think anyone would identify the toxin:

https://www.voanews.com/a/russian-chemical-weapons-specialist-moscow-sure-no-one-would-trace-poison/4301213.html
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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 5:24 pm

JAS wrote:...On the other hand what if it was a rogue Russian mafioso who really had a grudge against the victim and had enough power and influence to gain access to the nerve agent without VP's blessing. That then puts VP in an entirely less powerful position.

Very much doubt the real truth will ever come out definitively.

Umm, no. I don't think so.

Anyway, we aren't privvy to even a tiny bit of the information. What's certainly true is that Putin's a thug, who wasn't even high enough in the KGB to have been in the know about why his beloved Soviet Union collapsed. A dangerous level of stupidity.
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Post by super_realist on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 5:49 pm

Diggers wrote:
super_realist wrote:There's perfectly good reasons for there to be a pay disparity at many companies though, that's the point.

However, there's no excuse for women doing the same job (with the same level of experience) to be paid less though, I appreciate that.

There are reasons, I don't agree they are good though. For example the fact that more men are in management positions is a reason for the average, that's not a good reason, it highlights a promotion inequality.
Even in my position I see it, primary education, a place for women to flourish you'd think. Nope. Most of the heads and deputies are men. Appointed by school governors who in the main are...yep, men. I've been made a head of year inside on 3 years  of qualifying and my head wants to fast track me to be a deputy. Guess what, my head is male, the head governor is male. I'm pretty good at my job but can't really see that I'm better than others they are not considering and I'm far from unique. It's happened to a lot of my male friends.
I saw the same thing happen in both the media and travel industries. I've repeatedly seen women forced out of jobs when on maternity leave, even though this isn't even legal there was a financial incentive to take it or leave it.
I don't need a report to tell me women don't have equal rights in the workplace, I've seen it with my own eyes for 30 years. The fact that every shred of data (and this is just the start) backs it up comes as no great surprise.

Diggers, If I own a plumbing company, the vast majority of employees are going to be men, as plumbing, for better or worse is a male orientated industry. Now, if a plumber earns 70k a year, and the female employees in the company, perhaps working in a PA role to the manager if none are plumbers, or in some sort of Admin role are on 25k, or an HR role on 40k then that pay gap is more than acceptable is it not because the disparity in earnings doesn't take into account the position the person is doing.
A banking scenario, whether you like it or not is likely to be subject to the same sort of thing is it not?

As for school, I know of just as many male as female heads, and certainly more female in the Primary sector, in fact throughout that of my schooling, and that of my nieces, all the primary teachers and heads are/were female and throughout my secondary most were female too.

I'm not saying inequality doesn't exist, but simply saying that one company has a 60% discrepancy doesn't mean it's all down to discrimination and people have to be careful not to jump to the conclusion that people are being paid 60% less for doing the same job. I'm not saying you are doing this, but a lot of the media reporting is guilty of making this sort of error.

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Post by Diggers on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 6:05 pm

Why should banking be that way? I can't think of a single reason.

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Post by super_realist on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 6:31 pm

It's not that it SHOULD be that way, it's because that's how it is. There's nothing to stop women going into banking, just as there's nothing to stop men going into child care or nursing, but it's simply that for some reason in terms of our society it's become an industry that appeals more to males than women, just like primary teaching appeals more to women, or golf appeals more to white men than black men.


I'm not defending it, but societal "norms" seem to have been ingrained in us for decades. How many females did you know that wanted to get into finance/economics at school? I can't think of any. I did a module in my first year at Uni in Economics, they were only about 5-6 females from about 60 who joined us from the Accountancy degree for that course, so if they aren't entering it in the first place, why would you expect there to be equal numbers in that industry?

Whether you like it or not, it's why some might be jumping to the wrong conclusions about disparity in pay in finance when in reality people aren't comparing like with like.

There's not many industries which appeal to male/female in equal measure is there?, (training as a Doctor perhaps) Isn't there always going to be a difference in who gets paid what?(outside those jobs where people do exactly the same job) in any industry where sexes are NEVER going to be equally represented.

I don't think you can make any industry appeal to each gender equally. We're not the same.

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Post by Diggers on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 6:37 pm

That's all fair enough, but the percentage of women's making progress in banking is massively lower than men. I'm not sure how you can justify that unless for some reason men make better bankers. I feel that is far less likely than the simple fact that the already existing make management majority is biased towards promoting men.
I agree one bank doesn't tell the whole picture, but I do think the next 1800 companies due to declare soon will show the same overwhelming bias.

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Post by super_realist on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 6:40 pm

How do you know Diggers? There's lot's of women in great jobs in the city.

I'm not saying men make better bankers, I'm not saying women are paid less or deserve to be, I'm saying that there are fewer top women bankers because there are fewer women bankers in the industry in the first place.

Do you think it ever realistic in any industry you could get a 50/50 split? That's pretty naïve.

These reports aren't stating that women are getting paid 60% less for doing the same jobs, it's what women in the company are paid in relation to men. It doesn't mean there aren't women at the top earing the same as men, it means that there is likely to be more women in the lower paid jobs such as PA's.
I think it would be really helpful if these companies explained it a bit better and broke it down into departments.

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Post by Diggers on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 7:16 pm

I know because they gave the stat out yesterday when reviewing the news. Cant remember what it was exactly but heavily in male favour. There is no shortage of women in banking or wanting to go into banking. The problem is they are all deemed to be more admin than management material.
This is why there is the 30% On Board movement to get, funnily enough, 30% representation on company boards. This is across all boards but particularly in the corporate sector, even if the product is supposedly more female orientated.
These things aren't just made up, they are basic facts regarding how upper management works in the U.K. corporate world.

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Post by Diggers on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 7:29 pm

Read this, it shows that actually over half of junior banking staff are women, the numbers are there, the promotion however aren't.
This is global figures, which is even more depressing, but the trend is represented in the U.K. as these are after all, global companies.
https://ig.ft.com/managements-missing-women-data/

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Post by super_realist on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 8:44 pm

I'm all for that Diggers, but it doesn't change the fact that even if you have 50% women in the workforce that doesn't mean they all want to move up to promoted positions does it? Perhaps males are more aggressive in their push for promotion?

Many will leave to have a couple of children which means they'll be usurped by those with more experience.

To state that they are "ALL deemed to be admin rather than management" is rather generalisation.

Women make up 25% of senior management roles in the sector, not good enough, but nothing like you are saying.

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Post by Diggers on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 9:35 pm

We'll have to disagree there as I think that's appalling. I'd like to see one shred of research that shows women are not disadvantaged, not opinion, actual fact.

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Post by pedro on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 11:23 pm

Women are disadvataged because they give birth. Period. Like it or not, but due to this they’ll play catch up for a large part of their careeer.

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Post by pedro on Fri 16 Mar 2018, 11:50 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
pedro wrote:
JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:I'd be much more happy with a centre leftist than a militant commie like Corbyn. There are simply too many dodgy stories about who he has supported politically in the past by the right wing rags that I'm making a judgement that at least some it must be true and to give Idi Amin a cabinet post would be catastrophic.

Cheers for the NHS link. Shame I need it in the first place though. The question is, will it be just like every other charity where the NHS will see about 10% of my hard earned?

Fixed the first part for you. All things considered I'm all over the place on the right/left spectrum depending on the subject. But the longer this shower drift on with their media assisted character assassination of Corbyn, the further left I drift on all subjects. That being said I'd agree on Abbot who is pretty much Labour's biggest electoral liability. A great constituency MP with a huge majority but simply NOT Front Bench material.

I do find it quite odd that the same people who condemn Blair for wading into Iraq based on "flimsy" evidence now condemn Corbyn as traitorous for wanting to make certain of evidence before wading into a new cold war. Those people can't have it both ways.
I completely agree with Corbyn re. the Russia thing. He may be a commie, but he's assesssment is correct. It's like the West absolutely wants and needs an enemy. Russia here, Russia there, Russia everywhere. God dammit, people are obsessed with Russia. If the poison used is only produced in Russia it is either a) pretty obvious Russia wants to send a signal - which they of course know, or b) a conspiracy towards Russia. Regardless it was pretty toe wrenching to hear May last week accuse Russia of potentially "allowing" the poison to be stolen (that is if they didn't do it themselves). Like May has any control of what is stolen from UK labs or even smuggled into/out of the UK?

I admit that it is very likely that it is a deliberate action by the Russia intelligence agency (option a)) and they do it to send a signal to defectors and/or provoke the UK. But I think the West needs to sit back and figure out how to handle Russia in the broader picture. For sure Uncle Vladimir is sitting back in Kreml grinning over the UK/West not knowing what to make on themselves. Again.

But my point is: Why escalate the whole thing and potentially start a new cold war? Why not talk to the man? Like DT now wants to talk to Little Rocket Man. Why risk military confrontation just beacuse we are dealing wilth bullies/big egos/provocateurs. It's not worth it. Russia does not pose a defacto military threat to Europe, as they would be pretty stupid to engage with Nato.
In this context it's ironic also that the European (and American) Political Correctness, those who made a career out of advocating "dialogue", are now among the most sabre rattling of the bunch. Funny how things change.
Seriously? I mean, really?? Let's see:

Chechnya
Georgia
Crimea
Ukraine
Syria
Litvinenko
Salisbury
Add to the above the use of economic terrorism i.e. turning off the gas pipes etc.

The simple fact that Russia has these weapons and hasn't declared to the CPW, despite being a signatory, is a breech of international law. Russia is a gangster nation, ruled by a de facto dictator and a bunch of serious crooks.
The mistake 'we' made is thinking that Gorbachev/Yeltsin etc heralded some sort of change for the better. No. When you've got people like Zhironovsky around and Lugovoy made into a politician post-Livinenko you know they aren't 'better'.

Re. Corbyn and Iraq etc. I can see the logic, but this is almost certainly utter BS. It's not about a cooked up dossier etc. This was a Russian military WMD in Salisbury. May was right - it's either a deliberate State action or monumental idiocy by the same State in keeping its WMD secure. Either way, they're responsible. By all means keep the diplomatic channels open (as if they'd ever close), but please can we do it with some sort of threat.

This guy (link below) seems to suspect they're just dumb i.e. didn't think anyone would identify the toxin:

https://www.voanews.com/a/russian-chemical-weapons-specialist-moscow-sure-no-one-would-trace-poison/4301213.html
Duh, we found out after 5 minutes it was novichok. How stupid do the russians think we are? And how stupid do they think we think they think we are? We’ve been talking about the polonium incident for ages so it’s not like we just don’t bother.
Yes Putin may be a Godfather and Chechnya/Georgia/Ukraine/Crimea may be pushing the envelope. But they actually have more right being in Syria than we do, and wouldn’t we be pissed over defectors/double agents? Vlad is an old 2nd drawer KGB guy so why so surprised?
Let’s keep focused. We have NO interests in Chechnya, Georgia and Crimea (and Syria for that matter), despite desperately trying to interfere, and Litvinenko/Salisbury should be seen as mob related incidents where we basically just represent the other family. It’s not like the guy is trying to invade us, is it. Not worth going bananas over. Let’s not act as school kids.

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Post by super_realist on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 8:02 am

Diggers wrote:We'll have to disagree there as I think that's appalling. I'd like to see one shred of research that shows women are not disadvantaged, not opinion, actual fact.

Did I say it wasn't appalling?

My only issue with you on this matter is that you seem to be inferring that if a company has a gender pay imbalance then it's down to discrimination and nothing else, whereas I think there is quite a bit more to the imbalance than JUST discrimination.


Last edited by super_realist on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 8:10 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by super_realist on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 8:07 am

Re Novichok, has anyone raised an eyebrow that Portdon Down and the DSTL is just down the road?

Mike Graham had a great show with the charismatic and very amusing Alexander Nekrassov the other day which is well worth a listen.

http://talkradio.co.uk/radio/listen-again/1521108000


PS, our resident Commie Mac is very quiet these days, maybe that bus back from Salisbury broke down.

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Post by Diggers on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 8:58 am

super_realist wrote:
Diggers wrote:We'll have to disagree there as I think that's appalling. I'd like to see one shred of research that shows women are not disadvantaged, not opinion, actual fact.

Did I say it wasn't appalling?

My only issue with you on this matter is that you seem to be inferring that if a company has a gender pay imbalance then it's down to discrimination and nothing else, whereas I think there is quite a bit more to the imbalance than JUST discrimination.

Either way it needs to change, I do t really see how any sensible person can deny discrimination plays a large part. It's the stream of argument that says "Oh, it's probably a range of factors and isn't really that bad (whilst not being able to quantify this)" that ends up with nothing actually getting done.

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Post by super_realist on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 9:09 am

Of course, but I think we need to be careful whenever we see a disparity in gender pay that we don't jump to the conclusion that is must be ONLY discrimination.

You might think that explaining that it's most likely a list of reasons is excusing the discrimination, but I could equally say that saying it is completely down to discrimination is being sensationalist, which is something I expect more from Mac, who is incapable of seeing anything from more than one viewpoint. Yes, there's discrimination, but as your article said 25% of Senior Management roles in finance are female, up on the previous year, so although progress is slow, and naturally it will  be, you can't just promote people overnight to balance the gender ratio, it's going in the right direction.

The truth is, it's clearly a mix of lots of different factors, and the question is, how do we change that, and what is the realistic timescale for doing it?

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Post by Diggers on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 9:32 am

You change it by exposing bad practice and having increased transparency. Reports like these ones aren't perfect, but they are a tool that start to hold companies to account. Companies admit themselves there are problems, the BBC did and is making massive efforts to change.
It might not be a big issue in the UK for long as I can see a lot of companies, particularly in financial services, upping sticks before too long.

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Post by super_realist on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 9:41 am

Unilever are on their way out already.

I do find it hard to see how companies come to the decisions they do though. It's all very strange and "old boy network" like.

I'm fortunate enough to work in an industry where although it's more of a "blokey" type of job, the women who are represented are not discriminated against. I've worked for global firms with women CEO's and many of the Lead/Principal Geology, Petrophysics and Geophysics positions are held by women. Obviously I'm not party to what they are paid but I've no reason to think they're discriminated against. Shame it's not all like that.

On another note, in "showbiz" where people have agents, I think those agents are the ones who have to take a bit of the blame in not negotiating contracts well enough.

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Post by Diggers on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 9:54 am

I think men often have that view, I have had at companies that I've worked for. You usually find women often have a completely different outlook on what is deemed fair, my wife who has worked at the same places as I have, in PR, a very heavily female staffed industry, certainly has. Lots of HR negotiaton is bound by NDA's so you never really find out what happens.
Certainly there is clear evidence of companies actively seeking to dismiss women during maternity leave, this needs to be completely stamped out. We had this happen to us and it really destroyed my wife's confidence for a while.

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Post by raycastleunited on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 9:58 am

Diggers wrote:Read this, it shows that actually over half of junior banking staff are women, the numbers are there, the promotion however aren't.
This is global figures, which is even more depressing, but the trend is represented in the U.K. as these are after all, global companies.
https://ig.ft.com/managements-missing-women-data/

The stats are skewed by high earners. In banking those high earners are raking in a ridiculous amount of money. If you want to be an investment banker and close global deals you need to be prepared to work 24/7, work weekends and pull all nighters to meet deadlines. At junior level that’s fine, you see c.50% gender split.

But then women have babies. Some don’t return to work, because they’ve worked really hard and built up a decent lifestyle but usually because their husband is also a banker and earns enough for both. Those that do return to work need to balance job with childcare. You can’t earn the big bucks if you need to leave work at 5pm to collect littlejonny from nursery. 5pm in London is only lunch time in New York, there’s still half the day to go. It’s not inequality it’s choice.

When you have children, you make a choice: career or family. In our society, typically the men choose career and women choose family. You can’t have it all.

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Post by super_realist on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 9:59 am

Ironically, HR departments, in my experience at least are staffed in the great majority by women.

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Post by raycastleunited on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 10:07 am

The outrage at the BBC was justified: people getting paid vastly different salaries for doing the same job, like reading the news.

At HSBC I expect people are generally paid the same for the same job. Eg a branch manager salary probably all are within a band regardless of gender. It’s just a few high pressure/ highly paid people distort the picture.

I’m just guessing, I don’t work in banking

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Post by Diggers on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 10:20 am

super_realist wrote:Ironically, HR departments, in my experience at least are staffed in the great majority by women.

Who usually report to a male director. HR simply carries out company policy. HR staff rarely make final recruitment decisions.

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Post by super_realist on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 10:22 am

Quite ridiculous sums for reading the news as well, a pretty talentless role.

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Post by Diggers on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 10:22 am

raycastleunited wrote:
Diggers wrote:Read this, it shows that actually over half of junior banking staff are women, the numbers are there, the promotion however aren't.
This is global figures, which is even more depressing, but the trend is represented in the U.K. as these are after all, global companies.
https://ig.ft.com/managements-missing-women-data/

The stats are skewed by high earners. In banking those high earners are raking in a ridiculous amount of money. If you want to be an investment banker and close global deals you need to be prepared to work 24/7, work weekends and pull all nighters to meet deadlines. At junior level that’s fine, you see c.50% gender split.

But then women have babies. Some don’t return to work, because they’ve worked really hard and built up a decent lifestyle but usually because their husband is also a banker and earns enough for both. Those that do return to work need to balance job with childcare. You can’t earn the big bucks if you need to leave work at 5pm to collect littlejonny from nursery. 5pm in London is only lunch time in New York, there’s still half the day to go. It’s not inequality it’s choice.

When you have children, you make a choice: career or family. In our society, typically the men choose career and women choose family. You can’t have it all.

That, in a nutshell, is the sweeping generalised argument that perpetuates the problems that we have.

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Post by super_realist on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 10:24 am

Diggers wrote:
super_realist wrote:Ironically, HR departments, in my experience at least are staffed in the great majority by women.

Who usually report to a male director. HR simply carries out company policy. HR staff rarely make final recruitment decisions.

Depends on your experience Diggers.
My experience is for the largest company in Denmark (top 150 in the world) which had a head of HR as a woman, and another in one of Europe's largest oil companies (FTSE 200 company) whose HR is entirely staffed by women, right up to Director. Different for everyone isn't it?


Last edited by super_realist on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by super_realist on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 10:26 am

Diggers wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:
Diggers wrote:Read this, it shows that actually over half of junior banking staff are women, the numbers are there, the promotion however aren't.
This is global figures, which is even more depressing, but the trend is represented in the U.K. as these are after all, global companies.
https://ig.ft.com/managements-missing-women-data/

The stats are skewed by high earners. In banking those high earners are raking in a ridiculous amount of money. If you want to be an investment banker and close global deals you need to be prepared to work 24/7, work weekends and pull all nighters to meet deadlines. At junior level that’s fine, you see c.50% gender split.

But then women have babies. Some don’t return to work, because they’ve worked really hard and built up a decent lifestyle but usually because their husband is also a banker and earns enough for both. Those that do return to work need to balance job with childcare. You can’t earn the big bucks if you need to leave work at 5pm to collect littlejonny from nursery. 5pm in London is only lunch time in New York, there’s still half the day to go. It’s not inequality it’s choice.

When you have children, you make a choice: career or family. In our society, typically the men choose career and women choose family. You can’t have it all.

That, in a nutshell, is the sweeping generalised argument that perpetuates the problems that we have.

And you haven't made sweeping generalisations Diggers? You're the one inferring that gender pay gaps are down to discrimination alone. You're like the Climate Change advocate who thinks it's all down to man made pollution.

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Post by Diggers on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 10:34 am

super_realist wrote:
Diggers wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:
Diggers wrote:Read this, it shows that actually over half of junior banking staff are women, the numbers are there, the promotion however aren't.
This is global figures, which is even more depressing, but the trend is represented in the U.K. as these are after all, global companies.
https://ig.ft.com/managements-missing-women-data/

The stats are skewed by high earners. In banking those high earners are raking in a ridiculous amount of money. If you want to be an investment banker and close global deals you need to be prepared to work 24/7, work weekends and pull all nighters to meet deadlines. At junior level that’s fine, you see c.50% gender split.

But then women have babies. Some don’t return to work, because they’ve worked really hard and built up a decent lifestyle but usually because their husband is also a banker and earns enough for both. Those that do return to work need to balance job with childcare. You can’t earn the big bucks if you need to leave work at 5pm to collect littlejonny from nursery. 5pm in London is only lunch time in New York, there’s still half the day to go. It’s not inequality it’s choice.

When you have children, you make a choice: career or family. In our society, typically the men choose career and women choose family. You can’t have it all.

That, in a nutshell, is the sweeping generalised argument that perpetuates the problems that we have.

And you haven't made sweeping generalisations Diggers? You're the one inferring that gender pay gaps are down to discrimination alone. You're like the Climate Change advocate who thinks it's all down to man made pollution.

As far as I can see I'm the only one who has provided any form of data. That's usually what happens when we debate something to be fair. I could show you a stack of data that proves the benefits of women returning to work after maternity, I could do the same for women being forced out. I've shown you the promotion process is utterly skewed, doesn't make any difference.
Show me so much data to support your views, I'd really, really love to se it. Would be much more useful that the "there's probably a problem but maybe..." argument.

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Post by super_realist on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 10:39 am

But you aren't admitting that discrimination in only PART of the story. That's incredibly naïve. You proved it yourself when you gave us the stat that 25% of women work in senior management in the Financial Sector.
Where is the discrimination for them?

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Post by Diggers on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 10:44 am

Are you serious, if it was 1% would you make the same argument, 5? Is a massive drop off not good enough for you? My god that is dumb.
Another article linked to research that shows discrimination. I look forward to your head in the sand denial of the data backing up my generalisations. Maybe the fact a woman wrote it makes it untrue?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-business/11759280/Maternity-discrimination-forcing-thousands-of-new-UK-mums-out-of-work.html

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Post by super_realist on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 10:50 am

Diggers, I don't doubt your data, but you are looking at the data in isolation as if it is the only thing which is resulting in a gender pay gap.


I don't disagree with you on the issue that discrimination exists, but it is naïve to think it is the sole reason for a gender pay gap in workplaces across the country. That's the point.


Most of the data you are looking at is not  considering the reasons as to why there is a difference, it simply reports the gender pay gap.

Please understand the NO ONE is saying that there is no discrimination, we are simply saying that discrimination is NOT ALWAYS THE ONLY REASON. Surely you can see that?

Discrimination CONTRIBUTES to the gender pay gap.

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Post by Diggers on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 10:58 am

It massively contributes and the pay gap is only a small part of the discrimination in the work place. Why not try and focus on that than pacing an emphasis on other factors to downplay the discrimination that does exist?

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Post by Plunky on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 7:33 pm

I used to work in insurance/reinsurance and got to see a lot of employment practice claims.  Investment banking (in the US at least) had way more than their fair share, usually relating to "business " meetings in strip clubs , personal and offensive emails/comments in the workplace,  women missing out on promotions in favor of less experienced men, etc.   Most claims were settled quietly and the women involved went to work elsewhere. So I'm not really surprised about the HSBC data.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 9:59 pm

pedro wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
pedro wrote:
JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:I'd be much more happy with a centre leftist than a militant commie like Corbyn. There are simply too many dodgy stories about who he has supported politically in the past by the right wing rags that I'm making a judgement that at least some it must be true and to give Idi Amin a cabinet post would be catastrophic.

Cheers for the NHS link. Shame I need it in the first place though. The question is, will it be just like every other charity where the NHS will see about 10% of my hard earned?

Fixed the first part for you. All things considered I'm all over the place on the right/left spectrum depending on the subject. But the longer this shower drift on with their media assisted character assassination of Corbyn, the further left I drift on all subjects. That being said I'd agree on Abbot who is pretty much Labour's biggest electoral liability. A great constituency MP with a huge majority but simply NOT Front Bench material.

I do find it quite odd that the same people who condemn Blair for wading into Iraq based on "flimsy" evidence now condemn Corbyn as traitorous for wanting to make certain of evidence before wading into a new cold war. Those people can't have it both ways.
I completely agree with Corbyn re. the Russia thing. He may be a commie, but he's assesssment is correct. It's like the West absolutely wants and needs an enemy. Russia here, Russia there, Russia everywhere. God dammit, people are obsessed with Russia. If the poison used is only produced in Russia it is either a) pretty obvious Russia wants to send a signal - which they of course know, or b) a conspiracy towards Russia. Regardless it was pretty toe wrenching to hear May last week accuse Russia of potentially "allowing" the poison to be stolen (that is if they didn't do it themselves). Like May has any control of what is stolen from UK labs or even smuggled into/out of the UK?

I admit that it is very likely that it is a deliberate action by the Russia intelligence agency (option a)) and they do it to send a signal to defectors and/or provoke the UK. But I think the West needs to sit back and figure out how to handle Russia in the broader picture. For sure Uncle Vladimir is sitting back in Kreml grinning over the UK/West not knowing what to make on themselves. Again.

But my point is: Why escalate the whole thing and potentially start a new cold war? Why not talk to the man? Like DT now wants to talk to Little Rocket Man. Why risk military confrontation just beacuse we are dealing wilth bullies/big egos/provocateurs. It's not worth it. Russia does not pose a defacto military threat to Europe, as they would be pretty stupid to engage with Nato.
In this context it's ironic also that the European (and American) Political Correctness, those who made a career out of advocating "dialogue", are now among the most sabre rattling of the bunch. Funny how things change.
Seriously? I mean, really?? Let's see:

Chechnya
Georgia
Crimea
Ukraine
Syria
Litvinenko
Salisbury
Add to the above the use of economic terrorism i.e. turning off the gas pipes etc.

The simple fact that Russia has these weapons and hasn't declared to the CPW, despite being a signatory, is a breech of international law. Russia is a gangster nation, ruled by a de facto dictator and a bunch of serious crooks.
The mistake 'we' made is thinking that Gorbachev/Yeltsin etc heralded some sort of change for the better. No. When you've got people like Zhironovsky around and Lugovoy made into a politician post-Livinenko you know they aren't 'better'.

Re. Corbyn and Iraq etc. I can see the logic, but this is almost certainly utter BS. It's not about a cooked up dossier etc. This was a Russian military WMD in Salisbury. May was right - it's either a deliberate State action or monumental idiocy by the same State in keeping its WMD secure. Either way, they're responsible. By all means keep the diplomatic channels open (as if they'd ever close), but please can we do it with some sort of threat.

This guy (link below) seems to suspect they're just dumb i.e. didn't think anyone would identify the toxin:

https://www.voanews.com/a/russian-chemical-weapons-specialist-moscow-sure-no-one-would-trace-poison/4301213.html
Duh, we found out after 5 minutes it was novichok. How stupid do the russians think we are? And how stupid do they think we think they think we are? We’ve been talking about the polonium incident for ages so it’s not like we just don’t bother.
Yes Putin may be a Godfather and Chechnya/Georgia/Ukraine/Crimea may be pushing the envelope. But they actually have more right being in Syria than we do, and wouldn’t we be pissed over defectors/double agents? Vlad is an old 2nd drawer KGB guy so why so surprised?
Let’s keep focused. We have NO interests in Chechnya, Georgia and Crimea (and Syria for that matter), despite desperately trying to interfere, and Litvinenko/Salisbury should be seen as mob related incidents where we basically just represent the other family. It’s not like the guy is trying to invade us, is it. Not worth going bananas over. Let’s not act as school kids.
I read that, twice, but I have no idea what you're talking about.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Sat 17 Mar 2018, 10:00 pm

super_realist wrote:Re Novichok, has anyone raised an eyebrow that Portdon Down and the DSTL is just down the road?

Mike Graham had a great show with the charismatic and very amusing Alexander Nekrassov the other day which is well worth a listen.

http://talkradio.co.uk/radio/listen-again/1521108000


PS, our resident Commie Mac is very quiet these days, maybe that bus back from Salisbury broke down.
Jesus wept!
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Post by pedro on Sun 18 Mar 2018, 11:14 pm

“I read that, twice, but I have no idea what you're talking about.”

Navy, thank you for admitting. It shows. OK

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Post by super_realist on Mon 19 Mar 2018, 7:47 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:Re Novichok, has anyone raised an eyebrow that Portdon Down and the DSTL is just down the road?

Mike Graham had a great show with the charismatic and very amusing Alexander Nekrassov the other day which is well worth a listen.

http://talkradio.co.uk/radio/listen-again/1521108000


PS, our resident Commie Mac is very quiet these days, maybe that bus back from Salisbury broke down.
Jesus wept!

I'm not saying it was them, it's an interesting post script to the story though.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 19 Mar 2018, 11:16 am

pedro wrote:“I read that, twice, but I have no idea what you're talking about.”

Navy, thank you for admitting. It shows. OK
Laugh Touché I guess, but I was referring to your inability to write a coherent post there.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 19 Mar 2018, 11:22 am

super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:Re Novichok, has anyone raised an eyebrow that Portdon Down and the DSTL is just down the road?

Mike Graham had a great show with the charismatic and very amusing Alexander Nekrassov the other day which is well worth a listen.

http://talkradio.co.uk/radio/listen-again/1521108000


PS, our resident Commie Mac is very quiet these days, maybe that bus back from Salisbury broke down.
Jesus wept!

I'm not saying it was them, it's an interesting post script to the story though.
It's not interesting. At all. It's a nonsensical allusion suggested by Russia, which you and others appear quite happy to pay lip service to.
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Post by super_realist on Mon 19 Mar 2018, 6:39 pm

Navy, I'm not paying it lip service, it's an interesting coincidence.
Porton Down must have the nerve agent in their possession though.

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Post by Be_the_ball on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 9:51 pm

Cambridge Analytica, we had a discussion on here last year at some point about data mining and analytics. Super mentioned doing a masters in it and Kwini introduced me to the name Robert Mercer. We all mused about the dangers of posting on social media. Crazy to find out the extent to which these guys have gone to poision peoples minds by exploiting their fears to swing elections around the world. Quite sickening really. Well done Channel 4, some really good investigative journalism there.
I thought the current political climate of hate was due to the effects of the global financial crash, but it seems its been specifically engineered.

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Post by pedro on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 10:18 pm

Via Cambridge Analytica it is pretty evident that the United Kingdom was directly involved in, or sanctioned an interference in the US election. I’m also sure there must be links btw a London City based company and UK Govt officials. I expect swift sanctions from the international community towards the UK and May personally, as well as UK billionaires in the US, preferably resulting in a military confrontation btw the US and the UK.

PS. Some irony may appear above.

PPS. How can people really be surprised by this? How naive and stupid are people allowed to be? I’ll even go as far as saying this is a non-story.

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Post by Be_the_ball on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 11:01 pm

Lol, calm down mate.

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