The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

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The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 24 Jan 2018, 12:09 am

First topic message reminder :

Some of the Irish provinces seem to be doing fine.  Munster might be able to pay back a few shillings to Landsdowne HQ this season.  Leinster have finally started sharing. Connacht have survived Mr Grumpy and have managed another Challenge Cup quarter.  Could they make the final?
Ulster need a separate topic to cover all their issues.  Oh - and they have one.  

Italy.  Treviso are now Benetton and improving to the point of it being grudgingly admitted outside of Italy.  Zebre?  See Ulster above.  The FIR continue to fiddle the other unions while Rome burns.  

Scarlets on the other hand continue to see Byrne roam.  And sidestep.  The WRU must be grinning from ear to ear as Scarlets are simply steaming.   Who needs union monies when you can assemble a squad like this?  Top of their conference and finishing top of their pool in front of a packed house to gain a home quarterfinal in the Champions Cup. What more could you ask for?  Possibly a sneaky Welsh cap for Tadgh Beirne but little else to complain about.  If Gatland can harness the Scarlets, a la Leinster and Glasgow, and get Wales moving to the top in the Six Nations, the WRU might need to send a little more love (hard cash) over Llanelli way to encourage them further.  

Dragons got bought by the WRU.  And then hired an Irish coach. And then fixed their pitch.  And then things went so so.  And the jury went out on Jackman.  And then they started losing. A lot.  And then they had lots of announcements about new players for next season. And then they got knocked out of the Challenge Cup.  
And now it’s a wait for another season.  Not sure if the jury has come back in yet but Jackman has a battle on his hands.  

Ospreys continue to plumb new depths and eventually decided to fire their coach after failing in the Champions Cup once again.  Will they be in the Challenge Cup next season?

Cardiff have at least made the knockouts of the Challenge Cup but they’re still batting eyes at the WRU some say.  Will they succumb to the union’s clutches?

All the way down to Port Elizabeth for the new entrants.

The Southern Kings? See Zebre.  X 100.   Massive squad revamp needed and SARU investment.

Cheetahs?   Just when they’d notched another triumph on their league bedpost, came the news that another of their players had been nicked for another SR side. Their top try scorer is leaving too.  They’ve 8 wins in the bag, can they get a few more to make it into the playoffs?  

And finally the Scots.  Cockerill is definitely making inroads and if it doesn’t happen this season, they’ll be making life difficult in 2018/19 for a few of the higher up clubs. Their sassy and classy neighbours look strong prospects for the Championship title with a single loss so far.   Not too long ago, the SRU was making plaintive noises about the costs of running the two clubs and seeking private investors.  Then they went quiet.  Then they announced a profit for the first time in a long while.  And investment in academy is starting to pay off.  And the Test team isn’t doing too shabby either.  SRU CEO, Mark Dodson, says long term objective is to secure external investment to ensure the future of the game.  

We’ve had the first inkling of a change and expected increase in TV revenues for the Championship with EirSport announced as the new broadcaster for games in the Irish territory.  Anayi & Co still have to deliver a substantial increase on previous revenues.  The SARU/SuperSport deal has ensured part of that with a reported 36m six-year agreement.   What will GB deliver?

Private investment and Union control/money.  Will a happy marriage eventually be reached?
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by SecretFly on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 11:43 am

Welsh refs ain't Welsh!

Yeah, perfect WalesOnline Headline.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:03 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Wrong because when asked a simple question you couldn't answer it?

I had already given the information. I very kindly, looked past your ignorance / inability to read words,  and gave the same information to you again.

Erm Rolling Eyes

Yes, because everyone sees everything that is posted here

RugbyFan100 wrote:
What I think is wrong is the rest of the countries not supplying enough officials to the league but of course its the Irish who are at fault

As has been proved, that is not an excuse you can use for this coming weekend.

And as I've repeatedly said, whatever the nationality - if the officials are all of the same nationality as one of the sides playing it becomes farcial / incompetent. Also, it becomes an even bigger problem if the entire set of officials are officiating a rugby team which their employers own and operate. This doesn't happen with Welsh teams, save for the possibility of the Dragons.

So when ERCC put JP Doyle in charge of a Munster game?

Except the WRU employ players on every team

Also you proved that there are referees of different nationalities out there, you assume things then take that as fact. So heres some facts for you, the number of officials belonging to each union for this weekends games

Referees
IRFU-3
WRU-1
SARU-2
SRU-1
FIR-0

[b][/ARsb]
IRFU-6
WRU-5
SARU-0
SRU-2
FIR-1

[b][/TMOsb]
IRFU-3
WRU-3
SARU-0
SRU-1
FIR-0

So please tell how each union is supplying enough officials? The Irish having to supply more officials than anyone and one TMO having to do two games but yeah you've proved there's enough Rolling Eyes

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:53 pm

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:

Wrong because when asked a simple question you couldn't answer it?

I had already given the information. I very kindly, looked past your ignorance / inability to read words,  and gave the same information to you again.

Erm  Rolling Eyes

Yes, because everyone sees everything that is posted here

RugbyFan100 wrote:
What I think is wrong is the rest of the countries not supplying enough officials to the league but of course its the Irish who are at fault

As has been proved, that is not an excuse you can use for this coming weekend.

And as I've repeatedly said, whatever the nationality - if the officials are all of the same nationality as one of the sides playing it becomes farcial / incompetent. Also, it becomes an even bigger problem if the entire set of officials are officiating a rugby team which their employers own and operate. This doesn't happen with Welsh teams, save for the possibility of the Dragons.



Also you proved that there are referees of different nationalities out there, you assume things then take that as fact. So heres some facts for you, the number of officials belonging to each union for this weekends games

Referees
IRFU-3
WRU-1
SARU-2
SRU-1
FIR-0

[b][/ARsb]
IRFU-6
WRU-5
SARU-0
SRU-2
FIR-1

[b][/TMOsb]
IRFU-3
WRU-3
SARU-0
SRU-1
FIR-0

So please tell how each union is supplying enough officials? The Irish having to supply more officials than anyone and one TMO having to do two games but yeah you've proved there's enough Rolling Eyes

Scotland and Italy not producing enough referees, while pertinent, is not the cause of the non-neutrality referee appointment in Dublin this weekend. Please read this again. And one more time, and perhaps another so I don't have to type it again.

So when ERCC put JP Doyle in charge of a Munster game?

What about it? Their hands are tied. If JP Doyle is officially an English referee, there's not much anyone can do about it.

Except the WRU employ players on every team

So? The WRU doesn't own and run the Scarlets

The IRFU owns and runs Leinster. The IRFU employs and pays the officials in the match at Dublin on Saturday. The IRFU employs and pays the players for 1 of the sides in this match.

You may be happy with that, but Martin Anayi and I are not - because, in his words:

“Ultimately, if you are listening to a match on television and you hear an Irish TMO speaking at a match in Ireland, .............you are going to to think they are biased"

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 1:09 pm

Why do our Irish members always descend this into a nationality p1ssing contest ?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 1:11 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Scotland and Italy not producing enough referees, while pertinent, is not the cause of the non-neutrality referee appointment in Dublin this weekend. Please read this again. And one more time, and perhaps another so I don't have to type it again.

You mean Scotland who are supplying the same number of referees as Wales this weekend?

RugbyFan100 wrote:
So when ERCC put JP Doyle in charge of a Munster game?

What about it? Their hands are tied. If JP Doyle is officially an English referee, there's not much anyone can do about it.

No their not, they don't have to put him in charge of Irish teams

Except the WRU employ players on every team

RugbyFan100 wrote:So? The WRU doesn't own and run the Scarlets

The IRFU owns and runs Leinster. The IRFU employs and pays the officials in the match at Dublin on Saturday. The IRFU employs and pays the players for 1 of the sides in this match.

You may be happy with that, but Martin Anayi and I are not - because, in his words:

“Ultimately, if you are listening to a match on television and you hear an Irish TMO speaking at a match in Ireland, .............you are going to to think they are biased"

Except Anayis argument is about nationality, you're arguing ownership and employment.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 1:13 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Why do our Irish members always descend this into a nationality p1ssing contest ?

You mean because non Irish members mention nationality? So it's the fault of the Irish? Rolling Eyes

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 1:16 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Why do our Irish members always descend this into a nationality p1ssing contest ?

You mean because non Irish members mention nationality? So it's the fault of the Irish? Rolling Eyes


No they don't.

Secretfly, you and carpetbaboon amongst others keep bringing nationality into it. I have not brought nationality into it, neither has rugbyfan, he has said that it is equally wrong to have all Welsh official when officiating a Welsh side.

It's the Irish on here who always try and turn these debates into a p1ssing contest for various reasons.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 1:18 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Why do our Irish members always descend this into a nationality p1ssing contest ?

You mean because non Irish members mention nationality? So it's the fault of the Irish? Rolling Eyes


No they don't.

Secretfly, you and carpetbaboon amongst others keep bringing nationality into it. I have not brought nationality into it, neither has rugbyfan, he has said that it is equally wrong to have all Welsh official when officiating a Welsh side.

It's the Irish on here who always try and turn these debates into a p1ssing contest for various reasons.

'What reasoning is there that the South African refereeing the Dragons game could not have refereed in Dublin instead, swapping with Lacey, meaning a neutral official in Dublin?'

So nationality has nothing to do with this at all despite mentioning nationalities?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 1:28 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Why do our Irish members always descend this into a nationality p1ssing contest ?

You mean because non Irish members mention nationality? So it's the fault of the Irish? Rolling Eyes


No they don't.

Secretfly, you and carpetbaboon amongst others keep bringing nationality into it. I have not brought nationality into it, neither has rugbyfan, he has said that it is equally wrong to have all Welsh official when officiating a Welsh side.

It's the Irish on here who always try and turn these debates into a p1ssing contest for various reasons.

'What reasoning is there that the South African refereeing the Dragons game could not have refereed in Dublin instead, swapping with Lacey, meaning a neutral official in Dublin?'

So nationality has nothing to do with this at all despite mentioning nationalities?


But he is not accusing the Irish of anything is he ?

He is saying, and I agree with him, that the position our league is in with the officials is a joke. But for some reason you refute this.

We are in a mess, and the fact that we are in a position, where all officials, and all players, and all coaches who come under one umbrella are supposed to be impartial, when it is impossible to be is a joke. This is not privvy to Ireland/Irish either, and rugbyfan has mentioned this, on more than one occasion. Yet members like you would rather steer this debate down a road that members like myself, and rugbyfan would rather not go down.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 1:53 pm

Except he's made the accusation the league is designed to benefit the Irish. No ones refuted everything what has been countered is the idea that it's simple just to swap officials about, he's been presented with reasons why it might not be possible, then ignores them and continues to argue that they should be swapped and claim it to be factual.

What is also refuted is the fact that you and he both keep claiming that refs aren't impartial or neutral. Just because they are from the same country doesn't mean they are not impartial or neutral, it just means the perception might be different just as it is at times when the refs are the same nationality, as an Ulster fan Id rather have Owens ref a game against a Welsh side than Lacey or Clancy


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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 2:04 pm

marty2086 wrote:What is also refuted is the fact that you and he both keep claiming that refs aren't impartial or neutral. Just because they are from the same country doesn't mean they are not impartial or neutral, it just means the perception might be different just as it is at times when the refs are the same nationality, as an Ulster fan Id rather have Owens ref a game against a Welsh side than Lacey or Clancy

It's the employment though, why do people keep banging on about nationalities ? We can use Irish ref reffing Irish teams, or Welsh refs reffing Welsh teams til the cows come home, but when you talk about the employment situation then how that is not taken seriously by some of our Irish members on here just amazes me.

Would you be happy to have Wayne Barnes reffing England V Ireland at Twickenham ?


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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 2:08 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:What is also refuted is the fact that you and he both keep claiming that refs aren't impartial or neutral. Just because they are from the same country doesn't mean they are not impartial or neutral, it just means the perception might be different just as it is at times when the refs are the same nationality, as an Ulster fan Id rather have Owens ref a game against a Welsh side than Lacey or Clancy

It's the employment though, why do people keep banging on about nationalities ? We can use Irish ref reffing Irish teams, or Welsh refs reffing Welsh teams til the cows come home, but when you talk about the employment situation then how that is not taken seriously by some of our Irish members on here just amazes me.

Would you be happy to have Wayne Barnes reffing England V Ireland at Twickenham ?


No its not

Because Anayi specifically spoke about accents and nationality, RugbyFan spoke about nationality, everyone speaks about nationality except you. It's always about nationality because fools like you always harp back to Irish ref and officials

I wouldn't be happy with Barnes reffing any match, I think he's a clown


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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 2:12 pm

marty2086 wrote:No its not

Because Anayi specifically spoke about accents and nationality, RugbyFan spoke about nationality, everyone speaks about nationality except you. It's always about nationality because fools like you always harp back to Irish ref and officials

I wouldn't be happy with Barnes reffing any match, I think he's a clown

There really is no point debating with you. You are using insults now, so you are not adding anything meaningful to the debate.

Just be a man, admit that you are wrong, again, and move on.

Oh, but you do not do that do you ? You just like to descend threads into insults and p1ss taking. Rolling Eyes

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by SecretFly on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 3:38 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Why do our Irish members always descend this into a nationality p1ssing contest ?

You mean because non Irish members mention nationality? So it's the fault of the Irish? Rolling Eyes


No they don't.

Secretfly, you and carpetbaboon amongst others keep bringing nationality into it. I have not brought nationality into it, neither has rugbyfan, he has said that it is equally wrong to have all Welsh official when officiating a Welsh side.

It's the Irish on here who always try and turn these debates into a p1ssing contest for various reasons.

I'm not in the mood for humouring you or RugbyFan. I read what I read. You ignore it if you want to. I'm not going to humour any blunt and direct nationality allusions that are made here even if you decide to gloss over them and pretend you haven't seen them. So shove it, Lord. Nationality IS a central issue for RugbyFan and I don't give a damn what you think about it. It's us the jabs are directed at ...not you. So if you don't want to be included in the nationality pissing contest, then keep out of it.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 3:47 pm

SecretFly wrote:So if you don't want to be included in the nationality pissing contest, then keep out of it.

But there is not one to keep out of, you, and your mates on here though are doing your god damn best to turn it into one though.

You ALL need to get over yourselves. Rolling Eyes

You are all turning this into a nationality p1ssing contest to meander the debate into your direction, I'm sorry, but nobody outside your gang are falling for it.

Debate like adults about the topic in hand, and stop trying to force it down a road that gives you the moral high ground.


Last edited by LordDowlais on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by SecretFly on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 3:57 pm

Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.
Thread Post by LordDowlais on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 8:37 pm

Yeah.  You keep chewing the cud with your pal 'Rugby Fan'.  Knock yourself out with the adult debate between the two of you. I'm sure you'll both come up with the perfect plan.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Welshmushroom on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 3:57 pm

I see this ref/nationality biased thing is still going on.....

Surely there are bigger issue in terms of the Pro14 being taken more seriously.  For example I would argue Welsh Sides have a unfair advantage over Irish sides on non qualified home grown players.  Currently I believe Munster, Leinster & Ulster only get 1-2 overseas capped players with a bunch of restrictions.  Connacht apparently seem to get completely excluded from this.  Wales 4 teams all get 6 plus a additional couple of "project players" and both (Scottish/Italian) sides can apparently recruit as many as they like.  Not sure what the South African sides can or cant do as they probably don't have the budgets for this to even be a problem for them right now.

So I would argue the above issue does more to damage fair play than even the ref issue you guys are harping on about.  Maybe the league should set a unified rule set for the sides competing against each other.  Seems unfair that one team may have to do it with all home grown players and another can go out and field a entire all blacks 15 if they have the budget.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 4:00 pm

SecretFly wrote:Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.
Thread Post by LordDowlais on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 8:37 pm

Yeah.  You keep chewing the cud with your pal 'Rugby Fan'.  Knock yourself out with the adult debate between the two of you.  I'm sure you'll both come up with the perfect plan.  

But he's right.

He also said that all Welsh officials for Scarlets V Connacht game was not right as well. But lets not that get in the way of your agenda. Nobody is falling for it. Rolling Eyes

I notice you have changed your writing style as well. You get all serious when you've been busted do you ? Very Happy

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 4:03 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:I see this ref/nationality biased thing is still going on.....

But that is not going on.

I have been debating, well trying, about not enough quality refs in our league, and nothing seemingly is being done about it. I am also talking about the employment of officials, yet I keep getting accused of other stuff.

It's frustrating, it really is. steam

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by SecretFly on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 4:10 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.
Thread Post by LordDowlais on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 8:37 pm

Yeah.  You keep chewing the cud with your pal 'Rugby Fan'.  Knock yourself out with the adult debate between the two of you.  I'm sure you'll both come up with the perfect plan.  

But he's right.

He also said that all Welsh officials for Scarlets V Connacht game was not right as well. But lets not that get in the way of your agenda. Nobody is falling for it. Rolling Eyes

I notice you have changed your writing style as well. You get all serious when you've been busted do you ? Very Happy

I get serious when I stop humouring people like you.  Yeah, I get serious.  I'm a very serious person.  Does that shock you?  
I'm not in the mood for humouring your casual nationality baiting, Lord.  I'm not in the humour for your excuses.  That's your Thread up there - not RugbyFan's.  And you have your own history.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Welshmushroom on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 4:11 pm

Lord, my point here is that while this may be a point the league could improve on, surely this is trivial when we compare the massive disparities all the teams within the league have to negotiate. Surely my earlier point is a far more pressing matter than the quality of the refs in the league or home town bias.

Even if bias or poor quality ref where an issue, my argument is that teams within the league work under totally different remittances which do not allow for a fair sporting contest. If the league truly wants a sporting spectacle it will need to sort out the indifference between the teams.


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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 4:20 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:Lord, my point here is that while this may be a point the league could improve on

Yes they could improve.

Welshmushroom wrote:Even if bias or poor quality ref where an issue,

But poor quality refs are an issue, it's why we keep getting this perception of bias. Irish refs have to ref Irish sides because there are not enough quality refs from other nations. The same reason why Welsh refs have to ref Welsh sides.

It's a blight on our league, it gives the haters ammunition.

Welshmushroom wrote:my argument is that teams within the league work under totally different remittances

And so do the officials. Irish refs work under an Irish remittance, Welsh refs work under a Welsh remittance. They should all work under one remittance that all the teams competing can adhere to.

Welshmushroom wrote: If the league truly wants a sporting spectacle it will need to sort out the indifference between the teams.

That's down to the teams themselves, not the league.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 4:22 pm

SecretFly wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Irish ref, Irish TMO, game in Ireland, nothing changes.
Thread Post by LordDowlais on Fri 08 Sep 2017, 8:37 pm

Yeah.  You keep chewing the cud with your pal 'Rugby Fan'.  Knock yourself out with the adult debate between the two of you.  I'm sure you'll both come up with the perfect plan.  

But he's right.

He also said that all Welsh officials for Scarlets V Connacht game was not right as well. But lets not that get in the way of your agenda. Nobody is falling for it. Rolling Eyes

I notice you have changed your writing style as well. You get all serious when you've been busted do you ? Very Happy

I get serious when I stop humouring people like you.  Yeah, I get serious.  I'm a very serious person.  Does that shock you?  
I'm not in the mood for humouring your casual nationality baiting, Lord.  I'm not in the humour for your excuses.  That's your Thread up there - not RugbyFan's.  And you have your own history.

And there's my point proved in epic fashion. You want to think we are all against the Irish, then you go for it, but nobody outside your posse is falling for it, sorry boi bach.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 6:25 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:I see this ref/nationality biased thing is still going on.....

But that is not going on.

I have been debating, well trying, about not enough quality refs in our league, and nothing seemingly is being done about it. I am also talking about the employment of officials, yet I keep getting accused of other stuff.

It's frustrating, it really is. steam
Its not up to the league to improve the quality of refs, it's up to the unions. The league can't send refs to ref in national leagues, underage games, schools games etc to gain that valuable experience before making the step up. This is like Zebre fans complaing that the Pro 14 doesn't improve the quality of their players.

Refereeing is an incredibly difficult and thankless job as we all know, not many people actually want to do it professionally

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 7:32 pm

Some things never change.

Rugby Fan posts another provocative post about same nationality refs at a game. Cue mayhem.

Has anyone worked out if the addition of two SA teams has made any difference/difficulties to the scheduling of neutral officials for games this season?

In addition, has local fan abuse of particular referees led to decisions being made not to assign certain refs to certain away games?
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by St John The Enforcer on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 7:56 pm

I just think it's hilarious that a bloke who allegedly runs a business doesn't know the meaning of the word remittance Very Happy

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 8:05 am

And again, here we go with the p1ss taking. Rolling Eyes

They should all get paid by the same employer. It's what I have been saying all through this thread.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by carpet baboon on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 9:15 am

Who pays them for the matches they ref in the pro 14?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 9:19 am

carpet baboon wrote:Who pays them for the matches they ref in the pro 14?

The Pro14.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by carpet baboon on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 9:29 am

So they are payed by the pro14 for the games they officiate , then are they not employed by the pro14 ?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 9:38 am

carpet baboon wrote:So they are payed by the pro14 for the games they officiate , then are they not employed by the pro14 ?

Look, I know you are trying to manipulate me into a trap, but anyway, this is what I would like:-

A group of officials, from all the nations involved in the Pro14, all employed by the Pro14, all officiating to a Pro14 mandate, not an irish mandate, or a Welsh mandate, or a Scottish mandate, and so on.

We will have a style of refs, reffing in a Pro14 style. All singing from the same hymn sheet, and not under the same employment as the people they are supposed to be impartial to.

Is this too much to ask ?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by carpet baboon on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 9:46 am

LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:So they are payed by the pro14 for the games they officiate , then are they not employed by the pro14 ?

Look, I know you are trying to manipulate me into a trap, but anyway, this is what I would like:-

A group of officials, from all the nations involved in the Pro14, all employed by the Pro14, all officiating to a Pro14 mandate, not an irish mandate, or a Welsh mandate, or a Scottish mandate, and so on.

We will have a style of refs, reffing in a Pro14 style. All singing from the same hymn sheet, and not under the same employment as the people they are supposed to be impartial to.

Is this too much to ask ?

All guidance for refs comes from world rugby.
They all use the same laws.
They are payed by the pro14 to ref Pro14 matches to the standard pro14 want.
These are all facts.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 9:47 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:No its not

Because Anayi specifically spoke about accents and nationality, RugbyFan spoke about nationality, everyone speaks about nationality except you. It's always about nationality because fools like you always harp back to Irish ref and officials

I wouldn't be happy with Barnes reffing any match, I think he's a clown

There really is no point debating with you. You are using insults now, so you are not adding anything meaningful to the debate.

Just be a man, admit that you are wrong, again, and move on.

Oh, but you do not do that do you ? You just like to descend threads into insults and p1ss taking. Rolling Eyes

Rolling Eyes

So you make claims, are wrong and then tell me to admit Im wrong?

You tell me to be a man then say Im using insults?

Why would I admit it isn't bout nationality when nationality was explicitly mentioned by the man running the league as a problem with fans, why would I admit Im wrong when RugbyFan explicitly said the league was built to benefit the Irish?

So since you were wrong saying that the problem isn't nationality and wrong saying RF hadn't accused the Irish of anything and haven't admitted you were wrong, does that mean you're not a man?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by SecretFly on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:11 am

The solution:  Ireland going its own way.  

Finding some way to form a League of its own - a true domestic league.  
Divide up the Provinces into two if we must - Ulster East, Ulster West/Leinster North, Leinster South etc.

A hard bitten, Eight team, ball-breaking League of intense rugby and more room for the extra players that are coming in and getting clogged up because of too few teams to place them into.

That's the only 'solution' I'm interested in now.  I believe we could make a serious go of it and boy would it produce the players we need for International too with the ruthless competition it would create.  
Rugby is growing in Ireland still and we need to have the courage of our conviction to get a real machine churning in this Nation to service this new century.

So I'm joining RugbyFan's bandwagon.  Down with the Pro14 - it's only a circus for moaners and sideline whiners.  Down with a British&Irish League - I'm not dumb enough to fall for another pan-National Brotherly League of Love and Fraternity.  Crud/ambush idea with only the same collective of moans and groans again but ten times the intensity of the present circus.

So a True Domestic Irish League for the Irish alone.  Get moving on the formula IRFU.  My patience is wearing thin.  OK

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:19 am

Welshmushroom wrote:I see this ref/nationality biased thing is still going on.....

Surely there are bigger issue in terms of the Pro14 being taken more seriously.  For example I would argue Welsh Sides have a unfair advantage over Irish sides on non qualified home grown players.  Currently I believe Munster, Leinster & Ulster only get 1-2 overseas capped players with a bunch of restrictions.  Connacht apparently seem to get completely excluded from this.  Wales 4 teams all get 6 plus a additional couple of "project players" and both (Scottish/Italian) sides can apparently recruit as many as they like.  Not sure what the South African sides can or cant do as they probably don't have the budgets for this to even be a problem for them right now.

So I would argue the above issue does more to damage fair play than even the ref issue you guys are harping on about.  Maybe the league should set a unified rule set for the sides competing against each other.  Seems unfair that one team may have to do it with all home grown players and another can go out and field a entire all blacks 15 if they have the budget.

That is not something the league has imposed on the Irish teams. That's something the Irish have imposed on themselves for goodness sake!

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:21 am

Welshmushroom wrote:  If the league truly wants a sporting spectacle it will need to sort out the indifference between the teams.  


Quite simply, it can only do that if teams competing in it are not owned and operated by Unions.

So in short: It'll never happen due to the IRFU blazers.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:27 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:No its not

Because Anayi specifically spoke about accents and nationality, RugbyFan spoke about nationality, everyone speaks about nationality except you. It's always about nationality because fools like you always harp back to Irish ref and officials

I wouldn't be happy with Barnes reffing any match, I think he's a clown

There really is no point debating with you. You are using insults now, so you are not adding anything meaningful to the debate.

Just be a man, admit that you are wrong, again, and move on.

Oh, but you do not do that do you ? You just like to descend threads into insults and p1ss taking. Rolling Eyes

Rolling Eyes

So you make claims, are wrong and then tell me to admit Im wrong?

You tell me to be a man then say Im using insults?

Why would I admit it isn't bout nationality when nationality was explicitly mentioned by the man running the league as a problem with fans, why would I admit Im wrong when RugbyFan explicitly said the league was built to benefit the Irish?

So since you were wrong saying that the problem isn't nationality and wrong saying RF hadn't accused the Irish of anything and haven't admitted you were wrong, does that mean you're not a man?

FFS. picard

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:29 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:I see this ref/nationality biased thing is still going on.....

Surely there are bigger issue in terms of the Pro14 being taken more seriously.  For example I would argue Welsh Sides have a unfair advantage over Irish sides on non qualified home grown players.  Currently I believe Munster, Leinster & Ulster only get 1-2 overseas capped players with a bunch of restrictions.  Connacht apparently seem to get completely excluded from this.  Wales 4 teams all get 6 plus a additional couple of "project players" and both (Scottish/Italian) sides can apparently recruit as many as they like.  Not sure what the South African sides can or cant do as they probably don't have the budgets for this to even be a problem for them right now.

So I would argue the above issue does more to damage fair play than even the ref issue you guys are harping on about.  Maybe the league should set a unified rule set for the sides competing against each other.  Seems unfair that one team may have to do it with all home grown players and another can go out and field a entire all blacks 15 if they have the budget.

That is not something the league has imposed on the Irish teams. That's something the Irish have imposed on themselves for goodness sake!

'The current limit is for six non-Welsh per region, plus two time-servers – players serving the three-year residency qualification. There also have to be 17 Welsh qualified players in a 23 match-day squad.'

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/sport-opinion/foreign-players-welsh-rugby-weve-7448833

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:29 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:No its not

Because Anayi specifically spoke about accents and nationality, RugbyFan spoke about nationality, everyone speaks about nationality except you. It's always about nationality because fools like you always harp back to Irish ref and officials

I wouldn't be happy with Barnes reffing any match, I think he's a clown

There really is no point debating with you. You are using insults now, so you are not adding anything meaningful to the debate.

Just be a man, admit that you are wrong, again, and move on.

Oh, but you do not do that do you ? You just like to descend threads into insults and p1ss taking. Rolling Eyes

Rolling Eyes

So you make claims, are wrong and then tell me to admit Im wrong?

You tell me to be a man then say Im using insults?

Why would I admit it isn't bout nationality when nationality was explicitly mentioned by the man running the league as a problem with fans, why would I admit Im wrong when RugbyFan explicitly said the league was built to benefit the Irish?

So since you were wrong saying that the problem isn't nationality and wrong saying RF hadn't accused the Irish of anything and haven't admitted you were wrong, does that mean you're not a man?

FFS. picard

Typical

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:30 am

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:I see this ref/nationality biased thing is still going on.....

Surely there are bigger issue in terms of the Pro14 being taken more seriously.  For example I would argue Welsh Sides have a unfair advantage over Irish sides on non qualified home grown players.  Currently I believe Munster, Leinster & Ulster only get 1-2 overseas capped players with a bunch of restrictions.  Connacht apparently seem to get completely excluded from this.  Wales 4 teams all get 6 plus a additional couple of "project players" and both (Scottish/Italian) sides can apparently recruit as many as they like.  Not sure what the South African sides can or cant do as they probably don't have the budgets for this to even be a problem for them right now.

So I would argue the above issue does more to damage fair play than even the ref issue you guys are harping on about.  Maybe the league should set a unified rule set for the sides competing against each other.  Seems unfair that one team may have to do it with all home grown players and another can go out and field a entire all blacks 15 if they have the budget.

That is not something the league has imposed on the Irish teams. That's something the Irish have imposed on themselves for goodness sake!

'The current limit is for six non-Welsh per region, plus two time-servers – players serving the three-year residency qualification. There also have to be 17 Welsh qualified players in a 23 match-day squad.'

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/sport-opinion/foreign-players-welsh-rugby-weve-7448833

No idea why you've quoted that in reference to my point.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by SecretFly on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:33 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:  If the league truly wants a sporting spectacle it will need to sort out the indifference between the teams.  


Quite simply, it can only do that if teams competing in it are not owned and operated by Unions.

So in short: It'll never happen due to the IRFU blazers.

The word was 'indifference' - not 'difference'.

The only 'indifferent' sides are perhaps the sides that wanted out of the 'Celtic' League last time they thought they could. That little escapade didn't work out as planned - the tunnel was found and the grumblers have been banging their baseball up against their prison wall since.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:34 am

SecretFly wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:  If the league truly wants a sporting spectacle it will need to sort out the indifference between the teams.  


Quite simply, it can only do that if teams competing in it are not owned and operated by Unions.

So in short: It'll never happen due to the IRFU blazers.

The word was 'indifference' - not 'difference'.  

The only 'indifferent' sides are perhaps the sides that wanted out of the 'Celtic' League last time they thought they could.  That little escapade didn't work out as planned - the tunnel was found and the grumblers have been banging their baseball up against their prison wall since.

You're dead right. It didn't work out. And now we have an even more pathetic ' league.'

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:37 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:  If the league truly wants a sporting spectacle it will need to sort out the indifference between the teams.  


Quite simply, it can only do that if teams competing in it are not owned and operated by Unions.

So in short: It'll never happen due to the IRFU blazers.

So apparently it's not about nationality but this idiot always goes back to the Irish despite a quarter of the Welsh teams, half the Italians, all the Scottish and all the SA sides being union controlled Rolling Eyes

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:38 am

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:  If the league truly wants a sporting spectacle it will need to sort out the indifference between the teams.  


Quite simply, it can only do that if teams competing in it are not owned and operated by Unions.

So in short: It'll never happen due to the IRFU blazers.

So apparently it's not about nationality but this idiot always goes back to the Irish despite a quarter of the Welsh teams, half the Italians, all the Scottish and all the SA sides being union controlled Rolling Eyes

Because the IRFU are the only Union 100% dead against independently run teams Marty.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by SecretFly on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:39 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:  If the league truly wants a sporting spectacle it will need to sort out the indifference between the teams.  


Quite simply, it can only do that if teams competing in it are not owned and operated by Unions.

So in short: It'll never happen due to the IRFU blazers.

The word was 'indifference' - not 'difference'.  

The only 'indifferent' sides are perhaps the sides that wanted out of the 'Celtic' League last time they thought they could.  That little escapade didn't work out as planned - the tunnel was found and the grumblers have been banging their baseball up against their prison wall since.

You're dead right. It didn't work out. And now we have an even more pathetic ' league.'

Correct.  Let's both try to get out of it together and go our separate ways OK  
It's a party for habitual moaners and groaners.  It's like being in a busy A&E.  Moan, groan, cough, whine, splutter, yelp, moan, groan etc etc.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:40 am

SecretFly wrote:

Correct.  Let's both try to get out of it together and go our separate ways OK  

I wish. The IRFU would never allow it - the status quo is too beneficial for them.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by SecretFly on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:42 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Because the IRFU are the only Union 100% dead against independently run teams Marty.

We're not joined at the hip. We didn't marry each other. You have autonomy when your agreement is done. Talk about that which pleases you. Wales going it alone. Get the campaign going. It'd help mine.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:42 am

RugbyFan, why are you giving these what they want ?

They do not want to debate like adult about the issues in hand, they just want a p1ssing match, and they will not even consider anything you say.

It's pointless.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:42 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:  If the league truly wants a sporting spectacle it will need to sort out the indifference between the teams.  


Quite simply, it can only do that if teams competing in it are not owned and operated by Unions.

So in short: It'll never happen due to the IRFU blazers.

So apparently it's not about nationality but this idiot always goes back to the Irish despite a quarter of the Welsh teams, half the Italians, all the Scottish and all the SA sides being union controlled Rolling Eyes

Because the IRFU are the only Union 100% dead against independently run teams Marty.

Says you? Didn't realise you were privy to the inner workings of the IRFU

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by SecretFly on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:44 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

Correct.  Let's both try to get out of it together and go our separate ways OK  

I wish. The IRFU would never allow it - the status quo is too beneficial for them.

So now the IRFU run Welsh rugby too?

Don't be coy. You want your own way without the IRFU interference? - then promote the new independent exit for Regional teams. Do the promo work on what pleases you, not what don't.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

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