The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Page 15 of 21 Previous  1 ... 9 ... 14, 15, 16 ... 21  Next

Go down

The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 24 Jan 2018, 12:09 am

First topic message reminder :

Some of the Irish provinces seem to be doing fine.  Munster might be able to pay back a few shillings to Landsdowne HQ this season.  Leinster have finally started sharing. Connacht have survived Mr Grumpy and have managed another Challenge Cup quarter.  Could they make the final?
Ulster need a separate topic to cover all their issues.  Oh - and they have one.  

Italy.  Treviso are now Benetton and improving to the point of it being grudgingly admitted outside of Italy.  Zebre?  See Ulster above.  The FIR continue to fiddle the other unions while Rome burns.  

Scarlets on the other hand continue to see Byrne roam.  And sidestep.  The WRU must be grinning from ear to ear as Scarlets are simply steaming.   Who needs union monies when you can assemble a squad like this?  Top of their conference and finishing top of their pool in front of a packed house to gain a home quarterfinal in the Champions Cup. What more could you ask for?  Possibly a sneaky Welsh cap for Tadgh Beirne but little else to complain about.  If Gatland can harness the Scarlets, a la Leinster and Glasgow, and get Wales moving to the top in the Six Nations, the WRU might need to send a little more love (hard cash) over Llanelli way to encourage them further.  

Dragons got bought by the WRU.  And then hired an Irish coach. And then fixed their pitch.  And then things went so so.  And the jury went out on Jackman.  And then they started losing. A lot.  And then they had lots of announcements about new players for next season. And then they got knocked out of the Challenge Cup.  
And now it’s a wait for another season.  Not sure if the jury has come back in yet but Jackman has a battle on his hands.  

Ospreys continue to plumb new depths and eventually decided to fire their coach after failing in the Champions Cup once again.  Will they be in the Challenge Cup next season?

Cardiff have at least made the knockouts of the Challenge Cup but they’re still batting eyes at the WRU some say.  Will they succumb to the union’s clutches?

All the way down to Port Elizabeth for the new entrants.

The Southern Kings? See Zebre.  X 100.   Massive squad revamp needed and SARU investment.

Cheetahs?   Just when they’d notched another triumph on their league bedpost, came the news that another of their players had been nicked for another SR side. Their top try scorer is leaving too.  They’ve 8 wins in the bag, can they get a few more to make it into the playoffs?  

And finally the Scots.  Cockerill is definitely making inroads and if it doesn’t happen this season, they’ll be making life difficult in 2018/19 for a few of the higher up clubs. Their sassy and classy neighbours look strong prospects for the Championship title with a single loss so far.   Not too long ago, the SRU was making plaintive noises about the costs of running the two clubs and seeking private investors.  Then they went quiet.  Then they announced a profit for the first time in a long while.  And investment in academy is starting to pay off.  And the Test team isn’t doing too shabby either.  SRU CEO, Mark Dodson, says long term objective is to secure external investment to ensure the future of the game.  

We’ve had the first inkling of a change and expected increase in TV revenues for the Championship with EirSport announced as the new broadcaster for games in the Irish territory.  Anayi & Co still have to deliver a substantial increase on previous revenues.  The SARU/SuperSport deal has ensured part of that with a reported 36m six-year agreement.   What will GB deliver?

Private investment and Union control/money.  Will a happy marriage eventually be reached?
avatar
Pot Hale

Posts : 5895
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 57
Location : Dubhlinn

Back to top Go down


Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Tue 01 May 2018, 8:46 am

TJ wrote:The 25 million is the total spend on rugby.  It includes the 7 million each for Glasgow and Edinburgh. ( again from SRU sources)  the other 10 million goes on 7s, womens game, paying refs, development coaches, under 16s, under 18s, under 20s, support to the semi pro teams lower down, schools support, scouting,  etc etc.

Glasgow and Edinburgh have a TOTAL budget of around 7 million.  of this around 5 million is for players.  Highest paid player in Scotland is Stuart Hogg on £300 000.

We should be a bit better off next year tho with a bit more money coming in from the european cup and finishing a bit higher in the 6N.  also good money from 25 000 at Murreyfeild on Friday

Mate, that's complete nonsense. Look at page 63 of the annual report.

Domestic and performance rugby has a spend of £7.6m.

Page 68 describes that as "Domestic & Performance includes employees within the BT Academies, Domestic Rugby Support Services, Participation & Development, Coach Development, Outreach & Equality, Schools & Youth, Domestic & Elite Refereeing, and Age Grade & Other Coaches."

Sorry, but the SRU's Annual Report directly disproves your claim.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Tue 01 May 2018, 8:48 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
But, undoubtedly, Leinster are a massive cash cow. Imagine how much better they'd be if they were cut free from the shackles of IRFU ownership. They wouldn't get smashed by Connacht and beaten by Benetton, that's for sure.
That's just one sponsor though. I've no idea what laya is paying to have their logo on the teams shorts or what Energia is paying to have the naming rights to Donnybrook etc. The Leinster brand has become very attractive to companies

In terms of your second point, using two meaningless league games (Leinster have been guaranteed a playoff position for quite some time) as proof that Leinster would be somehow better off without the IRFU is laughable to say the least.[/quote]

How is it laughable? Leinster is presently propping up the other three teams in the country, player wise and finance wise. Were it independent, it would have no need to do neither.

It'll be interesting to see who Nacewa is replaced by because, were they on their own, Leinster would be able to outbid anybody for any player (as they aren't hindered by a salary cap).
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Tue 01 May 2018, 8:50 am

TJ wrote:All the pro 14 teams have the same income sources.  the budgets for players are all around the same amounts.  Leinster at the top, zebre at the bottom.   The welsh clubs are not disadvantaged financially.  You keep comparing apples to potatoes ie the 7 million ish Glasgow budget is their TOTAL budget.  Welsh teams get 4 million FOR PLAYERS plus some players on central contracts so the total spend on players is in the same region.  IMO the problem for the welsh clubs is this desire to hang on to all the welsh stars meaning they pay too much for them and thus do not have the money for a wider squad.  What leinster did first and other teams are catching on - glasgow especially - is not to have a first team and subs but have 2 players in every position who can rotate seamlessly

Leinster do have the most money in the pro 14 but the gap from lowest to highest is nothing like the gap from pro 14 to the french.,

Its only 5 years ago the scots teams were the poorest funded in the pro 12

This is complete nonsense. All do NOT have the same income sources as the Union ownership dictates that the salary bills at 6 of the teams are unequal - Glasgow and Edinburgh are funded differently, as are all of the Irish teams.

There is no way that Glasgow's total budget is £7m simply because off field costs cannot be met within your claimed £2m budget for non-playing costs.

The Welsh teams don't get £4m for players.

The French have a salary cap.

Somebody is feeding you complete and total nonsense. Easily proven as nonsense when you look at the facts.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Tue 01 May 2018, 8:51 am

Brendan wrote:The thing you have to take into account is that in Phil's view as the welsh teams are/were provide they only spend a certain amoiunt.  Any money the WRU gives the players out of the goodness of their heart is nothing to do with the teams.
On the other hand all the other teams have money pumped in to them by their union and all professional costs are for the first team squad only.  It doesn't cover academies, underage, rugby development.

Is that a deliberate lie or an attempt at humour or your honest comprehension?
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Tue 01 May 2018, 8:52 am

Brendan wrote: As he said they are the worse funded teams in the 3 leagues even less than the Kings and Zebre.


Where?
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Tue 01 May 2018, 8:54 am

TJ wrote:its utter nonsense to say the welsh teams are the worst funded.  You have 4 million for players plus central contracts for some players that does not come out of that 4 milloion.  glasgow and Edinburgh have 5 million for players. Zebre is lowest.
all pro 14 teams have the same funding streams.

On the other hand all the other teams have money pumped in to them by their union and all professional costs are for the first team squad only. It doesn't cover academies, underage, rugby development.

Simply wrong for the scots teams.  Every player on the Glasgow books age grade or not is paid for out of that 5 million.

It comes down to this -0 budgets for players saleries in the pro 12 vary from 3 million for the itailians, 4.5 million for the welsh, 5 million for the scots.  Not so sure of the Irish but its under 7 million for players for the biggest and Connacht is probably less then the welsh

The welsh teams are in the middle of the funding range.


As above, your claims of £5m for Glasgow and Edinburgh are disproven by the figures in the SRU Annual Report so it's clear that we can take your opinion with a pinch of salt. In fact, a mountain of salt.

Benetton and Zebre are spending more than £3m. The last claim I saw for Zebre was €6m, from an Italian media outlet.

Cardiff's wage budget is £5.5m, by the way, so you can't even get that right.

And Leinster is clearly €9m.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Tue 01 May 2018, 8:56 am

Brendan wrote:I know that what Phil is saying is rubbish and that all the pro14 teams spend a good chunk of money on their first team but also all the money on making sure they also look after the stars of tomorrow

In regard top up the IRFU & WRU do contract top ups. It would seem the SRU give it to the club's and let them decide who they want to give more or less to.

The SRU own both clubs, so there's no "deciding who they want to give more or less to". Basic stuff you're missing out on.

If you "know" what I write is "rubbish" then where are your information sources to disprove the ones I reference?
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Tue 01 May 2018, 8:57 am

TJ wrote:the oracle - based on information gleaned from many sources including on here.  Its my best guess.  some of the figures we know for sure, some are less certain, some are hard to compare because of differnt methods of reporting income.

We know the welsh teams have a 4 millionish budget plus more money from central contracts  We know the scots teams cost 7 million a year to run including all costs.  We know roughly the Italian budgets and can make a fair stab at the Irish ones.

The range of player budgets in the pro 14 is 3 - 6 million aprox.  Zebre at the bottom. leinster at the top.

We know there is no huge disparity in amounts of money available.

Anyone know who the highest paid Welsh player is?

Your best guess is disproven by the SRU's audited figures.

What you claim you "know" about the Welsh teams is disproved by their annual accounts.

Claiming that Leinster's squad is afforded on €6m shows that you have a lot of research to do.

Moriarty will be Wales' top paid player next season.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 01 May 2018, 10:22 am

Are you discounting the wedge of money from the wru that gets paid to players or is that counted now?

No 7&1/2

Posts : 16152
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Brendan on Tue 01 May 2018, 11:11 am

PhilBB wrote:
Brendan wrote: As he said they are the worse funded teams in the 3 leagues even less than the Kings and Zebre.


Where?

When you stated
If it isn't acceptable to you that teams with budgets ranked 35-40 in Europe don't make the top 8, may I suggest that you reset your values?

So I assume you got the 40 by adding the 3 leagues 14 + 14 + 12
So you are now including Kings and Cheetahs in your figures
Saying they are ranked 35-40 means you think they are in the 6 lowest funded teams (not sure what LI are but they use to be low). Including number 40 implies you think the lowest team is Welsh. If you said 35-38 maybe but not all the way down to 39/40

As the man (I assume) on here who feels it is his duty to get the true figure would you like to inform us if the WRU part of the NDCs (I think 60% but you will correct me if I am wrong) is on top of this low wage cap or are you including the WRU payments in it.



Brendan

Posts : 1957
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 01 May 2018, 12:37 pm

PhilBB wrote:
TJ wrote:the oracle - based on information gleaned from many sources including on here.  Its my best guess.  some of the figures we know for sure, some are less certain, some are hard to compare because of differnt methods of reporting income.

We know the welsh teams have a 4 millionish budget plus more money from central contracts  We know the scots teams cost 7 million a year to run including all costs.  We know roughly the Italian budgets and can make a fair stab at the Irish ones.

The range of player budgets in the pro 14 is 3 - 6 million aprox.  Zebre at the bottom. leinster at the top.

We know there is no huge disparity in amounts of money available.

Anyone know who the highest paid Welsh player is?

Your best guess is disproven by the SRU's audited figures.

What you claim you "know" about the Welsh teams is disproved by their annual accounts.

Claiming that Leinster's squad is afforded on €6m shows that you have a lot of research to do.

Moriarty will be Wales' top paid player next season.

What's the basis for your estimates for Leinster's player budget, Phil? Excluding the category A players paid directly by IRFU.
avatar
Pot Hale

Posts : 5895
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 57
Location : Dubhlinn

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Tue 01 May 2018, 3:32 pm

Brendan wrote:

When you stated
If it isn't acceptable to you that teams with budgets ranked 35-40 in Europe don't make the top 8, may I suggest that you reset your values?

So I assume you got the 40 by adding the 3 leagues 14 + 14 + 12
So you are now including  Kings and Cheetahs in your figures
Saying they are ranked 35-40 means you think they are in the 6 lowest funded teams (not sure what LI are but they use to be low).  Including number 40 implies you think the lowest team is Welsh.  If you said 35-38 maybe but not all the way down to 39/40

As the man (I assume) on here who feels it is his duty to get the true figure would you like to inform us if the WRU part of the NDCs (I think 60% but you will correct me if I am wrong) is on top of this low wage cap or are you including the WRU payments in it.



Well, Brendan, here's some news for you: Kings and Cheetahs aren't in Europe and there are two fully professional divisions in France.

The NDCs are included in the salaries as the clubs pay them in full and get compensated for 60% of the salary.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Tue 01 May 2018, 3:33 pm

Pot Hale wrote:

What's the basis for your estimates for Leinster's player budget, Phil?   Excluding the category A players paid directly by IRFU.

a) the number of players
b) the money spent by the IRFU on the pro game
c) the weighting of Leinster over Munster and Ulster, with Connacht an after thought
d) pretty much confirmed by a number on Twitter and those conversing with Scarlets fans at the recent semi final.
e) I'm not excluding any players as they are all paid directly by the IRFU, every single player.

What's the basis for your estimates?
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Sin é on Tue 01 May 2018, 4:48 pm

Here is an article from 2015 by Gerry Thornley in Irish Times on IRFU/Leinster finances:

Leinster have become increasingly self-sufficient, with an annual turnover of about €15 million, excluding monies from the IRFU towards the cost of provincially contracted players. The union pays €90,000 towards 17 of these contracts, and €50,000 toward the remainder.

In Leinster’s case, this amounts to 27 of their 34 fully contracted players, and the IRFU committee was informed that the €2.3 million the union contributes towards these contracts is about €300,000 down on the comparative figure in 2006-07.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/leinster-face-chill-financial-winds-if-denied-riches-from-europe-1.2438647
avatar
Sin é

Posts : 13540
Join date : 2011-04-01
Location : Dublin

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Tue 01 May 2018, 4:53 pm

Sin é wrote:Here is an article from 2015 by Gerry Thornley in Irish Times on IRFU/Leinster finances:

Leinster have become increasingly self-sufficient, with an annual turnover of about €15 million, excluding monies from the IRFU towards the cost of provincially contracted players. The union pays €90,000 towards 17 of these contracts, and €50,000 toward the remainder.

In Leinster’s case, this amounts to 27 of their 34 fully contracted players, and the IRFU committee was informed that the €2.3 million the union contributes towards these contracts is about €300,000 down on the comparative figure in 2006-07.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/leinster-face-chill-financial-winds-if-denied-riches-from-europe-1.2438647

Ah, those days when the Irish journalists convinced so many supporters that the IRFU didn't employ all of the players in Ireland.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 01 May 2018, 5:23 pm

Lol. Is there any point to this rather than just jealousy?

No 7&1/2

Posts : 16152
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Tue 01 May 2018, 5:46 pm

PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
But, undoubtedly, Leinster are a massive cash cow. Imagine how much better they'd be if they were cut free from the shackles of IRFU ownership. They wouldn't get smashed by Connacht and beaten by Benetton, that's for sure.
That's just one sponsor though. I've no idea what laya is paying to have their logo on the teams shorts or what Energia is paying to have the naming rights to Donnybrook etc. The Leinster brand has become very attractive to companies

In terms of your second point, using two meaningless league games (Leinster have been guaranteed a playoff position for quite some time) as proof that Leinster would be somehow better off without the IRFU is laughable to say the least.

How is it laughable? Leinster is presently propping up the other three teams in the country, player wise and finance wise. Were it independent, it would have no need to do neither.

It'll be interesting to see who Nacewa is replaced by because, were they on their own, Leinster would be able to outbid anybody for any player (as they aren't hindered by a salary cap). [/quote] I don't see how Leinster could outbid everyone on their own given the tv money available to the top 14 clubs. You'll have to explain that. The fact that Lowe and Fardy were signed last year shows how competitive Leinster are in the market with help from the IRFU. 

Leinster aren't propping anyone up player wise. Players are leaving to get first team rugby elsewhere, they were never staying here, nothing to do with the IRFU.

LeinsterFan4life

Posts : 5120
Join date : 2012-03-13
Age : 28
Location : Meath

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by TJ on Tue 01 May 2018, 9:34 pm

All the pro 14 teams have the same revenues streams - fact.  What revenus streams do you think some have that others dont? The only variable is how much local sponsership

Glasgow cost 7 million a year to run total - fact. When the SRU where looking to sell a part of glasgow thats the price they put on it

You keep on with the same old nonsense about comparing apples and potatoes. the welsh teams are in the middle financially. No doubt at all

Guys - its utter nonsense to suggest the welsh are disadvantaged financially.  Its just pathetic excuses

TJ

Posts : 7178
Join date : 2013-09-22

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by TJ on Tue 01 May 2018, 9:40 pm

Who is the highest paid player in wales and how much do9es he get? The highest paid player in scotland gets £300 000 pa. I bet there is a dozen welsh players on more - thats your trouble

TJ

Posts : 7178
Join date : 2013-09-22

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 01 May 2018, 9:51 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

What's the basis for your estimates for Leinster's player budget, Phil?   Excluding the category A players paid directly by IRFU.

a) the number of players
b) the money spent by the IRFU on the pro game
c) the weighting of Leinster over Munster and Ulster, with Connacht an after thought
d) pretty much confirmed by a number on Twitter and those conversing with Scarlets fans at the recent semi final.
e) I'm not excluding any players as they are all paid directly by the IRFU, every single player.

What's the basis for your estimates?

Leinster employ most of the players 35/43. That’s who their contract is with - Leinster pay the players directly. Category A players are under control of IRFU and they pay their wages.    The provinces get salary contributions from IRFU as outlined above, the balance is paid by the club from their own revenues.  

Central salary bill is about €7m for the 15 players.   Separate contribution to foreign player contracts although this has reduced substantially with clubs mainly footing the bill if they want to bring someone like a Piutau or Fardy.
avatar
Pot Hale

Posts : 5895
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 57
Location : Dubhlinn

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Tue 01 May 2018, 10:17 pm

TJ wrote:All the pro 14 teams have the same revenues streams - fact.  What revenus streams do you think some have that others dont?  The only variable is how much local sponsership

Glasgow cost 7 million a year to run total - fact.  When the SRU where looking to sell a part of glasgow thats the price they put on it

You keep on with the same old nonsense about comparing apples and potatoes.  the welsh teams are in the middle financially.  No doubt at all

Guys - its utter nonsense to suggest the welsh are disadvantaged financially.  Its just pathetic excuses


Great, yet another TJ hissy fit. The conversation was going quite well previously.
avatar
The Oracle

Posts : 1189
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by TJ on Wed 02 May 2018, 4:35 am

Who is the highest paid welsh player?

TJ

Posts : 7178
Join date : 2013-09-22

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Brendan on Wed 02 May 2018, 8:27 am

TJ wrote:Who is the highest paid welsh player?

I think someone said Moriarty from next season at the Dragons
According to some posters Dragon are now able to afford the most expensive player in Wales plus improve their player standards for next year (on paper atleast) while still running on the same money as before and being far less than the rest of the teams in the league. And that the welsh regions can bring back internationals (out bidding wealthier teams)

These same people would have you believe that the Scottish teams are spending 2-3 times the money on their teams and yet are losing players to France and England because they can compete financially.

Perfect sense in the internet world

Brendan

Posts : 1957
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 02 May 2018, 8:36 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
I don't see how Leinster could outbid everyone on their own given the tv money available to the top 14 clubs. You'll have to explain that. The fact that Lowe and Fardy were signed last year shows how competitive Leinster are in the market with help from the IRFU. 

Leinster aren't propping anyone up player wise. Players are leaving to get first team rugby elsewhere, they were never staying here, nothing to do with the IRFU.

The Leinster academy and development set up is clearly propping up the others. Hell, Nucifora is giving Leinster ultimatums about moving players on, such is the level of gerrymandering.

You also seem unaware that Leinster's salary spend is pretty much up there with the salary cap in the Top 14 already. Private ownership would allow Leinster to comfortably outstrip that, as Leinster aren't confined by a salary cap.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 02 May 2018, 8:37 am

TJ wrote:All the pro 14 teams have the same revenues streams - fact.  What revenus streams do you think some have that others dont?  The only variable is how much local sponsership

Glasgow cost 7 million a year to run total - fact.  When the SRU where looking to sell a part of glasgow thats the price they put on it

You keep on with the same old nonsense about comparing apples and potatoes.  the welsh teams are in the middle financially.  No doubt at all

Guys - its utter nonsense to suggest the welsh are disadvantaged financially.  Its just pathetic excuses

It is not a fact. There are clearly different revenues from the international game.

There is no "Glasgow cost £7m a year to run total - fact" at all. If there were, you could provide said fact. You can't. You are so badly informed that you claimed the £25m for the pro game funded referees etc. That's how badly informed you are.

In short, you are clueless. Your claims are disproved by the SRU.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 02 May 2018, 8:38 am

TJ wrote:Who is the highest paid player in wales and how much do9es he get?  The highest paid player in scotland gets £300 000 pa.  I bet there is a dozen welsh players on more - thats your trouble

18 months ago, Hogg signed a deal for £375,000 a year: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3835284/Stuart-Hogg-highest-paid-player-Scottish-rugby-history-bumper-new-deal.html

Again, that's how badly informed you are.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 02 May 2018, 8:39 am

Pot Hale wrote:
Leinster employ most of the players 35/43. That’s who their contract is with - Leinster pay the players directly. Category A players are under control of IRFU and they pay their wages.    The provinces get salary contributions from IRFU as outlined above, the balance is paid by the club from their own revenues.  

Central salary bill is about €7m for the 15 players.   Separate contribution to foreign player contracts although this has reduced substantially with clubs mainly footing the bill if they want to bring someone like a Piutau or Fardy.  

No, the IRFU control and hold all players contracts directly. That's why they can sack Olding and Jackson. The IRFU employ all of the players. You know this.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 02 May 2018, 8:42 am

Brendan wrote:
TJ wrote:Who is the highest paid welsh player?

I think someone said Moriarty from next season at the Dragons
According to some posters Dragon are now able to afford the most expensive player in Wales plus improve their player standards for next year (on paper atleast) while still running on the same money as before and being far less than the rest of the teams in the league.  And that the welsh regions can bring back internationals (out bidding wealthier teams)

These same people would have you believe that the Scottish teams are spending 2-3 times the money on their teams and yet are losing players to France and England because they can compete financially.

Perfect sense in the internet world

Nobody claimed the Scottish were spending 2-3 times the money on their teams, so it seems that you have basic comprehension problems.

The Dragons just got 18 players off their books for next year so it is going to be fascinating to see how they'll balance the books, but we will get to see how they do it as they'll need to publish accounts (plus there will be information in the WRU annual accounts as the Dragons is a separate company). See? All nice and clear and transparent. Unlike in Ireland and Scotland.

Buttress outbid the WRU (his club's owners) for Moriarty. My guess, therefore, is that Buttress is carrying the liability.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 02 May 2018, 8:42 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lol. Is there any point to this rather than just jealousy?
Educating the masses who think the Irish players play for the craic and the Scots are poor.

Oh, and for people like marty who didn't realise that the IRFU employ all of the players in Ireland.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Wed 02 May 2018, 9:36 am

Brendan wrote:
TJ wrote:Who is the highest paid welsh player?

I think someone said Moriarty from next season at the Dragons
According to some posters Dragon are now able to afford the most expensive player in Wales plus improve their player standards for next year (on paper atleast) while still running on the same money as before and being far less than the rest of the teams in the league.  And that the welsh regions can bring back internationals (out bidding wealthier teams)

These same people would have you believe that the Scottish teams are spending 2-3 times the money on their teams and yet are losing players to France and England because they can compete financially.

Perfect sense in the internet world


Brendan, I posted an interview with the new Dragons chairman on the previous page.  He explains how we're affording new players and is at pains to quash the myth that the WRU are bankrolling the Dragons and/or giving them extra cash.  Why are you ignoring this primary evidence in favour of your own imagination?

Someone asked who the Dragons were getting rid of that allows us to free up budget - here you go (credit to Munkian on the Dragons thread).  A lot of these were starters this season:

Dragons leavers

Phil Price – loosehead

Sam Hobbs – loosehead

Thomas Davies – loosehead

Luke Garrett – loosehead

Keagan Bale – loosehead

Liam Belcher – hooker

Rhys Buckley – hooker

Scott Andrews – lock

Ashley Sweet – lock

Robson Blake – back row

Sarel Pretorius – scrum-half

Charlie Davies – scrum-half

Angus O'Brien – fly-half

Adam Hughes – centre/wing

Pat Howard – centre/wing

Carl Meyer – full-back/fly-half

Barney Nightingale – centre

Sam Beard – centre

Lloyd Lewis – wing

Coach Shaun Connor is also leaving


Last edited by The Oracle on Wed 02 May 2018, 10:11 am; edited 1 time in total
avatar
The Oracle

Posts : 1189
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 02 May 2018, 9:48 am

The Oracle wrote:
Brendan, I posted an interview with the new Dragons chairman on the previous page.  He explains how we're affording new players and is at pains to quash the myth that the WRU are bankrolling the Dragons and/or giving them extra cash.  Why are you ignoring this primary evidence in favour of your own imagination?

Before Christmas, the other three went to Phillips to demand extra money because of how the WRU are pumping it into the Dragons, just to keep them afloat this season.

Expect some fireworks in the RSA renewal because of this.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Wed 02 May 2018, 10:15 am

PhilBB wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Brendan, I posted an interview with the new Dragons chairman on the previous page.  He explains how we're affording new players and is at pains to quash the myth that the WRU are bankrolling the Dragons and/or giving them extra cash.  Why are you ignoring this primary evidence in favour of your own imagination?

Before Christmas, the other three went to Phillips to demand extra money because of how the WRU are pumping it into the Dragons, just to keep them afloat this season.

Expect some fireworks in the RSA renewal because of this.


They bought a club. It was never going to be free. I don't see that they've pumped anything else in apart from the money to buy the club (part of which meant buying the debt from the previous owners and paying it off). 'Pumping in', for me, would be giving us an extra £2m for players over the other regions, which simply hasn't happened.
avatar
The Oracle

Posts : 1189
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 02 May 2018, 10:39 am

The Oracle wrote:
They bought a club.  It was never going to be free.  I don't see that they've pumped anything else in apart from the money to buy the club (part of which meant buying the debt from the previous owners and paying it off).  'Pumping in', for me, would be giving us an extra £2m for players over the other regions, which simply hasn't happened.  

So you've missed the new signings, the new coaching staff, the additional players throughout the season and the fact that the cost base is higher now than when the last company was losing money each year.

Who do you think is covering those financial losses now, Oracle?
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Wed 02 May 2018, 10:57 am

New signings not starting til next season, Phil. Those will obviously be offset by the 18 player cull and the increase in TV money. So I doubt the cost base is higher NOW. New coaches? Do you mean the defence coach?

You said yourself on this very thread that the WRU cannot give the Dragons more money because of the RSA. Now you're arguing against yourself?
avatar
The Oracle

Posts : 1189
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 02 May 2018, 11:03 am

The Oracle wrote:New signings not starting til next season, Phil. Those will obviously be offset by the 18 player cull and the increase in TV money.  So I doubt the cost base is higher NOW.  New coaches?  Do you mean the defence coach?  

You said yourself on this very thread that the WRU cannot give the Dragons more money because of the RSA.  Now you're arguing against yourself?

The new signings started this season - Kirchner, Henson, Marnitz and others in the conditioning team.

The WRU have given the Dragons money outside of the RSA this season to prop them up. This led to the other three asking for an equal amount, as per the terms of the RSA. I'm told that discussion is likely to amount to £800k for each of the other three.

Remember, the RSA states that the WRU cannot treat the four unequally (which is ironic, as that is exactly what the dreadful NDC system does).
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Brendan on Wed 02 May 2018, 11:05 am

So will the Dragons have a much smaller squad.
According to Wales on-line (not best source) they have signed 12 players for next season. If you take a lot getting let go were on smaller money they must be balancing it doing off the book stuff like sponsorship which cover WRU and Dragon and splitting the deal in favour of the Dragons

Anyway as the owners of a private club they should be able to pump money in as per Phil's logic

In regards to Scotland paying 2-3 Phill you are adamant that the welsh regions are only getting the cap so that makes it 4m (for easy of maths). You claim the Scots are spending 25m or 12m each (for ease of maths). Sure you can work out why I said you claimed the Scots were getting 2-3 times as much.

So please explain why the owners of a private Club/region which Dragons should be stopped by the other regions in Wales from investing their money as they please. And also confirm you do believe the Scots are paying 2-3 times as much or justify why you don't agree (which I don't agree with by the way but just used your figures)

Brendan

Posts : 1957
Join date : 2012-04-08
Location : Cork

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Wed 02 May 2018, 11:19 am

PhilBB wrote:
The Oracle wrote:New signings not starting til next season, Phil. Those will obviously be offset by the 18 player cull and the increase in TV money.  So I doubt the cost base is higher NOW.  New coaches?  Do you mean the defence coach?  

You said yourself on this very thread that the WRU cannot give the Dragons more money because of the RSA.  Now you're arguing against yourself?

The new signings started this season - Kirchner, Henson, Marnitz and others in the conditioning team.


But we lost players at the end of last season too - players like Crosswell, Craig Mitchell, Tom Prydie, Rhys Jones, plus Faletau left the summer before I think - so that freed up space and budget. This happens every season, in every team, obviously.

Henson and Kirchner were signed before the WRU took over too if memory serves. Kingsley's signings.
avatar
The Oracle

Posts : 1189
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 02 May 2018, 11:19 am

Brendan wrote:

In regards to Scotland paying 2-3 Phill you are adamant that the welsh regions are only getting the cap so that makes it 4m (for easy of maths). You claim the Scots are spending 25m or 12m each (for ease of maths).  Sure you can work out why I said you claimed the Scots were getting 2-3 times as much.

So please explain why the owners of a private Club/region which Dragons should be stopped by the other regions in Wales from investing their money as they please.  And also confirm you do believe the Scots are paying 2-3 times as much or justify why you don't agree (which I don't agree with by the way but just used your figures)

Bloody hell. Talk about incoherent.....

"you are adamant that the welsh regions are only getting the cap so that makes it 4m" -> what on earth does that mean?

"You claim the Scots are spending 25m or 12m each (for ease of maths)" -> No. That's on the entirety of their professional game. You know, as I wrote.

"why the owners of a private Club/region which Dragons should be stopped by the other regions in Wales from investing their money as they please." -> again, what on earth does that mean? It makes no coherent sense.

Please write coherently.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 02 May 2018, 11:20 am

The Oracle wrote:
But we lost players at the end of last season too - players like Crosswell, Craig Mitchell, Tom Prydie, Rhys Jones, plus Faletau left the summer before I think - so that freed up space and budget.  This happens every season, in every team, obviously.

Henson and Kirchner were signed before the WRU took over too if memory serves.  Kingsley's signings.

The incoming cost more than the outgoing to a business already losing money.

That's why the other three have demanded, and successfully claimed (I'm told today), additional funds from Phillips.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Wed 02 May 2018, 11:20 am

Brendan wrote:So will the Dragons have a much smaller squad.
According to Wales on-line (not best source) they have signed 12 players for next season.  If you take a lot getting let go were on smaller money they must be balancing it doing off the book stuff like sponsorship which cover WRU and Dragon and splitting the deal in favour of the Dragons


Not sure how many we've signed but I remember 12 being the number targeted by Jackman much earlier in the season.
avatar
The Oracle

Posts : 1189
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Wed 02 May 2018, 11:21 am

PhilBB wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
But we lost players at the end of last season too - players like Crosswell, Craig Mitchell, Tom Prydie, Rhys Jones, plus Faletau left the summer before I think - so that freed up space and budget.  This happens every season, in every team, obviously.

Henson and Kirchner were signed before the WRU took over too if memory serves.  Kingsley's signings.

The incoming cost more than the outgoing to a business already losing money.

That's why the other three have demanded, and successfully claimed (I'm told today), additional funds from Phillips.


To paraphrase you, Phil, can you please provide the evidence to back up your claims?
avatar
The Oracle

Posts : 1189
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 02 May 2018, 11:25 am

The Oracle wrote:
To paraphrase you, Phil, can you please provide the evidence to back up your claims?

Yes, you can find the losses noted in Companies House and you can obviously understand that Marnitz, Henson and Kirchner aren't there on peanuts.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Wed 02 May 2018, 11:32 am

PhilBB wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
To paraphrase you, Phil, can you please provide the evidence to back up your claims?

Yes, you can find the losses noted in Companies House and you can obviously understand that Marnitz, Henson and Kirchner aren't there on peanuts.

I meant evidence of 'what you've been told' about the other 3 regions getting £800,000 due to monies being pumped into the Dragons, which was the post that I quoted in my question.
avatar
The Oracle

Posts : 1189
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 02 May 2018, 11:37 am

The Oracle wrote:
I meant evidence of 'what you've been told' about the other 3 regions getting £800,000 due to monies being pumped into the Dragons, which was the post that I quoted in my question.

None. That's come to be today.

It may come to light by the end of June, which is the target date for the replacement of the RSA if everything goes smoothly on that.

Feel free to use a quantity of salt of your preference.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Wed 02 May 2018, 11:47 am

PhilBB wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
I meant evidence of 'what you've been told' about the other 3 regions getting £800,000 due to monies being pumped into the Dragons, which was the post that I quoted in my question.

None. That's come to be today.

It may come to light by the end of June, which is the target date for the replacement of the RSA if everything goes smoothly on that.

Feel free to use a quantity of salt of your preference.


Not like you to base your posts on whispers.
avatar
The Oracle

Posts : 1189
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 02 May 2018, 11:51 am

The Oracle wrote:
Not like you to base your posts on whispers.

Good sources don't whisper.

But not everything hits the Wales Online website, you know.
avatar
PhilBB

Posts : 4428
Join date : 2012-10-09

http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Wed 02 May 2018, 12:36 pm

PhilBB wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Not like you to base your posts on whispers.

Good sources don't whisper.

But not everything hits the Wales Online website, you know.


I wouldn’t know. I do not read that rag. It’s the Daily Mail for the valleys, as far as I can see.
avatar
The Oracle

Posts : 1189
Join date : 2018-01-16

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 02 May 2018, 12:46 pm

TJ wrote:All the pro 14 teams have the same income sources.  the budgets for players are all around the same amounts.  Leinster at the top, zebre at the bottom.   The welsh clubs are not disadvantaged financially.  You keep comparing apples to potatoes ie the 7 million ish Glasgow budget is their TOTAL budget.  Welsh teams get 4 million FOR PLAYERS plus some players on central contracts so the total spend on players is in the same region.  IMO the problem for the welsh clubs is this desire to hang on to all the welsh stars meaning they pay too much for them and thus do not have the money for a wider squad.  What leinster did first and other teams are catching on - glasgow especially - is not to have a first team and subs but have 2 players in every position who can rotate seamlessly

Leinster do have the most money in the pro 14 but the gap from lowest to highest is nothing like the gap from pro 14 to the french.,

Its only 5 years ago the scots teams were the poorest funded in the pro 12

Wow. That's a staggering post. So many inaccuracies there. Did you just make it up? Or have you got someone feeding you this nonsense?

RugbyFan100

Posts : 1147
Join date : 2016-10-07

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 02 May 2018, 1:05 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:All the pro 14 teams have the same income sources.  the budgets for players are all around the same amounts.  Leinster at the top, zebre at the bottom.   The welsh clubs are not disadvantaged financially.  You keep comparing apples to potatoes ie the 7 million ish Glasgow budget is their TOTAL budget.  Welsh teams get 4 million FOR PLAYERS plus some players on central contracts so the total spend on players is in the same region.  IMO the problem for the welsh clubs is this desire to hang on to all the welsh stars meaning they pay too much for them and thus do not have the money for a wider squad.  What leinster did first and other teams are catching on - glasgow especially - is not to have a first team and subs but have 2 players in every position who can rotate seamlessly

Leinster do have the most money in the pro 14 but the gap from lowest to highest is nothing like the gap from pro 14 to the french.,

Its only 5 years ago the scots teams were the poorest funded in the pro 12

Wow. That's a staggering post. So many inaccuracies there. Did you just make it up? Or have you got someone feeding you this nonsense?

It's quite ironic you accuse others of inaccuracies after some the guff you've posted, maybe you'd like to explain what's inaccurate about it?

marty2086

Posts : 10154
Join date : 2011-05-13
Age : 32
Location : Belfast

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 02 May 2018, 1:13 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
Leinster employ most of the players 35/43. That’s who their contract is with - Leinster pay the players directly. Category A players are under control of IRFU and they pay their wages.    The provinces get salary contributions from IRFU as outlined above, the balance is paid by the club from their own revenues.  

Central salary bill is about €7m for the 15 players.   Separate contribution to foreign player contracts although this has reduced substantially with clubs mainly footing the bill if they want to bring someone like a Piutau or Fardy.  

No, the IRFU control and hold all players contracts directly. That's why they can sack Olding and Jackson. The IRFU employ all of the players. You know this.

Ok Phil - I'm not sure if we're just arguing semantics around use of "contracts/employment" here somewhat since the topic was comparing the playing budgets for clubs.   The players have to be allocated somewhere if they're to be accounted for in a budget so it's either with IRFU in which case provinces don't have a playing budget at all (which we know is not the case) or else they're with Leinster/Munster/Ulster/Connacht.  There are plenty of stories/interviews/quotes with provincial management where they comment positively about not having to bear the cost of a central salary from their own budget, which would indicate that the Cat A contracts are not on their books or in their budgets. In addition, there is consistent references to provincial versus national contracts.   And references to top players negotiating with the likes of Nucifora at IRFU, and younger, newer players negotiating their contracts with Easterby (Leinster), Allnut (Connacht), Cunningham (Ulster) or Fitzgerald (Munster).

Nonetheless, if you lump all the player salaries together - central and provincial - then I reckon your original €9m for Leinster is not far off anyway - €6m provincial + 7 Cat A x €400-450k avg = €9m. approx

All that said, I reckon both our estimates are high.  Paddy Jackson is reported to have been on a £250k provincial contract in Ulster.  O'Mahony's central contract is reported to be €450k a year although this may have some test match bonuses included.   Furlong is reported to be on a €425k Cat A contract with similar test bonus payments.  Here's an extract from an Irish Times article on the subject in Nov 2017:

"There has been other financial improvements in the system. Academy contracts recently doubled from €4,000 to €8,000. A development contract of €30,0000 rises to a full €40,000 deal, more if the player is playing matches. The courageous move is to sign a one-season deal at this point on the premise that you will break into the team and be able to get a €90,000 contract in your second or third season as a pro.  The next contract, for a player hitting all his targets, enters the €140,000-€200,000 ball park. The 14/15 nationals contracts range between €300,000 and €500,000 with the cost of having to bring Sexton home over €700,000 (shared on the Leinster and IRFU payroll) and that’s before the O’Brien sweetener."


Last edited by Pot Hale on Wed 02 May 2018, 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
avatar
Pot Hale

Posts : 5895
Join date : 2011-06-05
Age : 57
Location : Dubhlinn

Back to top Go down

Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 15 of 21 Previous  1 ... 9 ... 14, 15, 16 ... 21  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum