The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

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The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 24 Jan 2018, 12:09 am

First topic message reminder :

Some of the Irish provinces seem to be doing fine.  Munster might be able to pay back a few shillings to Landsdowne HQ this season.  Leinster have finally started sharing. Connacht have survived Mr Grumpy and have managed another Challenge Cup quarter.  Could they make the final?
Ulster need a separate topic to cover all their issues.  Oh - and they have one.  

Italy.  Treviso are now Benetton and improving to the point of it being grudgingly admitted outside of Italy.  Zebre?  See Ulster above.  The FIR continue to fiddle the other unions while Rome burns.  

Scarlets on the other hand continue to see Byrne roam.  And sidestep.  The WRU must be grinning from ear to ear as Scarlets are simply steaming.   Who needs union monies when you can assemble a squad like this?  Top of their conference and finishing top of their pool in front of a packed house to gain a home quarterfinal in the Champions Cup. What more could you ask for?  Possibly a sneaky Welsh cap for Tadgh Beirne but little else to complain about.  If Gatland can harness the Scarlets, a la Leinster and Glasgow, and get Wales moving to the top in the Six Nations, the WRU might need to send a little more love (hard cash) over Llanelli way to encourage them further.  

Dragons got bought by the WRU.  And then hired an Irish coach. And then fixed their pitch.  And then things went so so.  And the jury went out on Jackman.  And then they started losing. A lot.  And then they had lots of announcements about new players for next season. And then they got knocked out of the Challenge Cup.  
And now it’s a wait for another season.  Not sure if the jury has come back in yet but Jackman has a battle on his hands.  

Ospreys continue to plumb new depths and eventually decided to fire their coach after failing in the Champions Cup once again.  Will they be in the Challenge Cup next season?

Cardiff have at least made the knockouts of the Challenge Cup but they’re still batting eyes at the WRU some say.  Will they succumb to the union’s clutches?

All the way down to Port Elizabeth for the new entrants.

The Southern Kings? See Zebre.  X 100.   Massive squad revamp needed and SARU investment.

Cheetahs?   Just when they’d notched another triumph on their league bedpost, came the news that another of their players had been nicked for another SR side. Their top try scorer is leaving too.  They’ve 8 wins in the bag, can they get a few more to make it into the playoffs?  

And finally the Scots.  Cockerill is definitely making inroads and if it doesn’t happen this season, they’ll be making life difficult in 2018/19 for a few of the higher up clubs. Their sassy and classy neighbours look strong prospects for the Championship title with a single loss so far.   Not too long ago, the SRU was making plaintive noises about the costs of running the two clubs and seeking private investors.  Then they went quiet.  Then they announced a profit for the first time in a long while.  And investment in academy is starting to pay off.  And the Test team isn’t doing too shabby either.  SRU CEO, Mark Dodson, says long term objective is to secure external investment to ensure the future of the game.  

We’ve had the first inkling of a change and expected increase in TV revenues for the Championship with EirSport announced as the new broadcaster for games in the Irish territory.  Anayi & Co still have to deliver a substantial increase on previous revenues.  The SARU/SuperSport deal has ensured part of that with a reported 36m six-year agreement.   What will GB deliver?

Private investment and Union control/money.  Will a happy marriage eventually be reached?
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 02 May 2018, 1:13 pm

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:All the pro 14 teams have the same income sources.  the budgets for players are all around the same amounts.  Leinster at the top, zebre at the bottom.   The welsh clubs are not disadvantaged financially.  You keep comparing apples to potatoes ie the 7 million ish Glasgow budget is their TOTAL budget.  Welsh teams get 4 million FOR PLAYERS plus some players on central contracts so the total spend on players is in the same region.  IMO the problem for the welsh clubs is this desire to hang on to all the welsh stars meaning they pay too much for them and thus do not have the money for a wider squad.  What leinster did first and other teams are catching on - glasgow especially - is not to have a first team and subs but have 2 players in every position who can rotate seamlessly

Leinster do have the most money in the pro 14 but the gap from lowest to highest is nothing like the gap from pro 14 to the french.,

Its only 5 years ago the scots teams were the poorest funded in the pro 12

Wow. That's a staggering post. So many inaccuracies there. Did you just make it up? Or have you got someone feeding you this nonsense?

It's quite ironic you accuse others of inaccuracies after some the guff you've posted, maybe you'd like to explain what's inaccurate about it?

I'll pick up on the biggest fallacy:

"the budgets for players are all around the same amounts"

How on earth can anyone type that with a straight face? TJs post is quite clearly a wind up.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Brendan on Wed 02 May 2018, 1:37 pm

Fine Phil sorry that I am not the best writer of English we all can't be perfect medically

Answer these simple questions
1. What is the money spent on players by Welsh regions or the salary cap that is self imposed by the regions
2. What figure do you feel the SRU spend on players wages at their two clubs (you have now accepted the 25m is for all costs so making progress)
3. Based off the answers of the first two questions what is the ratio of Welsh spend to Scottish spend
4. Should an organisation who owns a private club/region be allowed to spend as much as they want on their team.
5. Is the WRU an organisation who purchased a private club/region

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Brendan on Wed 02 May 2018, 1:40 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:All the pro 14 teams have the same income sources.  the budgets for players are all around the same amounts.  Leinster at the top, zebre at the bottom.   The welsh clubs are not disadvantaged financially.  You keep comparing apples to potatoes ie the 7 million ish Glasgow budget is their TOTAL budget.  Welsh teams get 4 million FOR PLAYERS plus some players on central contracts so the total spend on players is in the same region.  IMO the problem for the welsh clubs is this desire to hang on to all the welsh stars meaning they pay too much for them and thus do not have the money for a wider squad.  What leinster did first and other teams are catching on - glasgow especially - is not to have a first team and subs but have 2 players in every position who can rotate seamlessly

Leinster do have the most money in the pro 14 but the gap from lowest to highest is nothing like the gap from pro 14 to the french.,

Its only 5 years ago the scots teams were the poorest funded in the pro 12

Wow. That's a staggering post. So many inaccuracies there. Did you just make it up? Or have you got someone feeding you this nonsense?

It's quite ironic you accuse others of inaccuracies after some the guff you've posted, maybe you'd like to explain what's inaccurate about it?

I'll pick up on the biggest fallacy:

"the budgets for players are all around the same amounts"

How on earth can anyone type that with a straight face? TJs post is quite clearly a wind up.

Would you say it is greater than 2:1 highest to lowest (taking out all the international associated payments to players who get paid a combined wage for being a club and international player)

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 02 May 2018, 2:17 pm

Brendan wrote:

Would you say it is greater than 2:1 highest to lowest (taking out all the international associated payments to players who get paid a combined wage for being a club and international player)

In Wales it is around a 50% (approx) increase from lowest to highest in terms of player budget (although that may change next season), so going from league lowest (say Zebra / Dragons) to highest (say Leinster) you are looking at something like a 130% increase.

To say the teams "budgets for players are all around the same amounts" is so inaccurate it is laughable.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 02 May 2018, 2:31 pm

This, from yer man Conor Neville at RTE.ie sport sums it up well. One can only hope the artricle was well read

The reasons behind the Welsh teams' lack of success of in Europe may be more straightforward.

Namely, lack of funding. The playing budgets available to the Welsh regions are simply not on a par with those available to Leinster, Munster and Ulster, never mind those in France and England.

Unlike Ireland, Wales doesn't employ a central contracting system but a dual system where the WRU pay 60% of the wages of the national team players with the regions themselves stumping up the other 40%. The Welsh clubs have been dependent for a long time on wealthy benefactors like pie magnate Peter Thomas who has pumped millions of his own money into the Cardiff Blues in the past two decades, with no expectation of getting it back.  

The overall playing budget of the Blues, Ospreys and Scarlets is around £5 million apiece. It's awkward comparing this figure to individual provinces in Ireland but spending on professional game costs here in 2017 hit €41.1 million and it's generally believed that the likes of Leinster would have more money to play with in terms of playing budgets.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2018/0419/955725-success-or-apathy-the-nascent-revival-of-welsh-regions/

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 02 May 2018, 2:45 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:All the pro 14 teams have the same income sources.  the budgets for players are all around the same amounts.  Leinster at the top, zebre at the bottom.   The welsh clubs are not disadvantaged financially.  You keep comparing apples to potatoes ie the 7 million ish Glasgow budget is their TOTAL budget.  Welsh teams get 4 million FOR PLAYERS plus some players on central contracts so the total spend on players is in the same region.  IMO the problem for the welsh clubs is this desire to hang on to all the welsh stars meaning they pay too much for them and thus do not have the money for a wider squad.  What leinster did first and other teams are catching on - glasgow especially - is not to have a first team and subs but have 2 players in every position who can rotate seamlessly

Leinster do have the most money in the pro 14 but the gap from lowest to highest is nothing like the gap from pro 14 to the french.,

Its only 5 years ago the scots teams were the poorest funded in the pro 12

Wow. That's a staggering post. So many inaccuracies there. Did you just make it up? Or have you got someone feeding you this nonsense?

It's quite ironic you accuse others of inaccuracies after some the guff you've posted, maybe you'd like to explain what's inaccurate about it?

I'll pick up on the biggest fallacy:

"the budgets for players are all around the same amounts"

How on earth can anyone type that with a straight face? TJs post is quite clearly a wind up.

Well he didn't say they were the same, he said around. If he had that would be one inaccuracy not many, so seems you are gain making inaccurate claims Rolling Eyes

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 02 May 2018, 2:51 pm

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:All the pro 14 teams have the same income sources.  the budgets for players are all around the same amounts.  Leinster at the top, zebre at the bottom.   The welsh clubs are not disadvantaged financially.  You keep comparing apples to potatoes ie the 7 million ish Glasgow budget is their TOTAL budget.  Welsh teams get 4 million FOR PLAYERS plus some players on central contracts so the total spend on players is in the same region.  IMO the problem for the welsh clubs is this desire to hang on to all the welsh stars meaning they pay too much for them and thus do not have the money for a wider squad.  What leinster did first and other teams are catching on - glasgow especially - is not to have a first team and subs but have 2 players in every position who can rotate seamlessly

Leinster do have the most money in the pro 14 but the gap from lowest to highest is nothing like the gap from pro 14 to the french.,

Its only 5 years ago the scots teams were the poorest funded in the pro 12

Wow. That's a staggering post. So many inaccuracies there. Did you just make it up? Or have you got someone feeding you this nonsense?

It's quite ironic you accuse others of inaccuracies after some the guff you've posted, maybe you'd like to explain what's inaccurate about it?

I'll pick up on the biggest fallacy:

"the budgets for players are all around the same amounts"

How on earth can anyone type that with a straight face? TJs post is quite clearly a wind up.

Well he didn't say they were the same, he said around. If he had that would be one inaccuracy not many, so seems you are gain making inaccurate claims Rolling Eyes

They are not 'around' the same.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 02 May 2018, 2:55 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:All the pro 14 teams have the same income sources.  the budgets for players are all around the same amounts.  Leinster at the top, zebre at the bottom.   The welsh clubs are not disadvantaged financially.  You keep comparing apples to potatoes ie the 7 million ish Glasgow budget is their TOTAL budget.  Welsh teams get 4 million FOR PLAYERS plus some players on central contracts so the total spend on players is in the same region.  IMO the problem for the welsh clubs is this desire to hang on to all the welsh stars meaning they pay too much for them and thus do not have the money for a wider squad.  What leinster did first and other teams are catching on - glasgow especially - is not to have a first team and subs but have 2 players in every position who can rotate seamlessly

Leinster do have the most money in the pro 14 but the gap from lowest to highest is nothing like the gap from pro 14 to the french.,

Its only 5 years ago the scots teams were the poorest funded in the pro 12

Wow. That's a staggering post. So many inaccuracies there. Did you just make it up? Or have you got someone feeding you this nonsense?

It's quite ironic you accuse others of inaccuracies after some the guff you've posted, maybe you'd like to explain what's inaccurate about it?

I'll pick up on the biggest fallacy:

"the budgets for players are all around the same amounts"

How on earth can anyone type that with a straight face? TJs post is quite clearly a wind up.

Well he didn't say they were the same, he said around. If he had that would be one inaccuracy not many, so seems you are gain making inaccurate claims Rolling Eyes

They are not 'around' the same.

Really? What are they then?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 02 May 2018, 3:05 pm

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:All the pro 14 teams have the same income sources.  the budgets for players are all around the same amounts.  Leinster at the top, zebre at the bottom.   The welsh clubs are not disadvantaged financially.  You keep comparing apples to potatoes ie the 7 million ish Glasgow budget is their TOTAL budget.  Welsh teams get 4 million FOR PLAYERS plus some players on central contracts so the total spend on players is in the same region.  IMO the problem for the welsh clubs is this desire to hang on to all the welsh stars meaning they pay too much for them and thus do not have the money for a wider squad.  What leinster did first and other teams are catching on - glasgow especially - is not to have a first team and subs but have 2 players in every position who can rotate seamlessly

Leinster do have the most money in the pro 14 but the gap from lowest to highest is nothing like the gap from pro 14 to the french.,

Its only 5 years ago the scots teams were the poorest funded in the pro 12

Wow. That's a staggering post. So many inaccuracies there. Did you just make it up? Or have you got someone feeding you this nonsense?

It's quite ironic you accuse others of inaccuracies after some the guff you've posted, maybe you'd like to explain what's inaccurate about it?

I'll pick up on the biggest fallacy:

"the budgets for players are all around the same amounts"

How on earth can anyone type that with a straight face? TJs post is quite clearly a wind up.

Well he didn't say they were the same, he said around. If he had that would be one inaccuracy not many, so seems you are gain making inaccurate claims Rolling Eyes

They are not 'around' the same.

Really? What are they then?

As noted, if you read the thread, some team's player budgets are over 100% larger than other teams'. If you think that constitutes "all teams budgets for players are all around the same amounts" then good luck to you.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 02 May 2018, 3:07 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:All the pro 14 teams have the same income sources.  the budgets for players are all around the same amounts.  Leinster at the top, zebre at the bottom.   The welsh clubs are not disadvantaged financially.  You keep comparing apples to potatoes ie the 7 million ish Glasgow budget is their TOTAL budget.  Welsh teams get 4 million FOR PLAYERS plus some players on central contracts so the total spend on players is in the same region.  IMO the problem for the welsh clubs is this desire to hang on to all the welsh stars meaning they pay too much for them and thus do not have the money for a wider squad.  What leinster did first and other teams are catching on - glasgow especially - is not to have a first team and subs but have 2 players in every position who can rotate seamlessly

Leinster do have the most money in the pro 14 but the gap from lowest to highest is nothing like the gap from pro 14 to the french.,

Its only 5 years ago the scots teams were the poorest funded in the pro 12

Wow. That's a staggering post. So many inaccuracies there. Did you just make it up? Or have you got someone feeding you this nonsense?

It's quite ironic you accuse others of inaccuracies after some the guff you've posted, maybe you'd like to explain what's inaccurate about it?

I'll pick up on the biggest fallacy:

"the budgets for players are all around the same amounts"

How on earth can anyone type that with a straight face? TJs post is quite clearly a wind up.

Well he didn't say they were the same, he said around. If he had that would be one inaccuracy not many, so seems you are gain making inaccurate claims Rolling Eyes

They are not 'around' the same.

Really? What are they then?

As noted, if you read the thread, some team's player budgets are over 100% larger than other teams'. If you think that constitutes "all teams budgets for players are all around the same amounts" then good luck to you.

I can't be a$$ed reading back so you want to answer the question?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 02 May 2018, 3:17 pm

marty2086 wrote:

I can't be a$$ed reading back so you want to answer the question?

I'd be delighted to

Pot Hale wrote:

if you lump all the player salaries together - central and provincial - then I reckon your original €9m for Leinster is not far off anyway - €6m provincial + 7 Cat A x €400-450k avg = €9m. approx


Leinster = £7.5m

Dragons are approx £3.5m this season, zebra are reportedly a bit less.

[source: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-much-funding-welsh-rugby-12405682   ]

So in just that single example you can see that some teams are spending double what others are in the pro14. And I'll reiterate that if you think that constitutes "all teams budgets for players are all around the same amounts" then good luck to you, and best wishes for a speedy recovery.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Brendan on Wed 02 May 2018, 3:57 pm

We actually don't know what Zebre's is but would say it has increased this year with FIR taking over

I think it was said 12 players in Wales are on NDCs which 60% is paid for by the union which should be an increase in funds of 300k by 60% which 180k or 2million in total. Yearly wage is plucked out of the sky but going on what people are on not miles away.

Where does all this extra money fit into the welsh player budgets.

As we are all well aware budget does not equal expected level of performance. The amount it has cost to build the Scarlets current squad is probably about 30% at least less then what it would cost if they all had to be signed up on today's form. So budget is just were the player was when they signed

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Wed 02 May 2018, 4:00 pm

So a poster saying Leinsters is 9million is proof of their budget and Dragons is £3.5m because Simon Thomas said it was nearly 18months ago and it's not like they have been taken over and increased their budget since then Rolling Eyes

Like I said, ironic you accuse others of being inaccurate

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Wed 02 May 2018, 4:19 pm

marty2086 wrote:So a poster saying Leinsters is 9million is proof of their budget and Dragons is £3.5m because Simon Thomas said it was nearly 18months ago and it's not like they have been taken over and increased their budget since then Rolling Eyes

Like I said, ironic you accuse others of being inaccurate

No, the Leinster thing came from an article in the Tlmes and the Dragons thing came from the chairman in an interview earlier this season, kindly copied and pasted in its entirety for you to read a couple of pages back.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 02 May 2018, 5:05 pm

The Oracle wrote:
marty2086 wrote:So a poster saying Leinsters is 9million is proof of their budget and Dragons is £3.5m because Simon Thomas said it was nearly 18months ago and it's not like they have been taken over and increased their budget since then Rolling Eyes

Like I said, ironic you accuse others of being inaccurate

No, the Leinster thing came from an article in the Tlmes and the Dragons thing came from the chairman in an interview earlier this season, kindly copied and pasted in its entirety for you to read a couple of pages back.

Oracle - what article in the Times are you referring to that stated that Leinster's playing budget was €9m? Phil and I were only doing best guesstimates.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Wed 02 May 2018, 5:18 pm

PhilBB wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
I don't see how Leinster could outbid everyone on their own given the tv money available to the top 14 clubs. You'll have to explain that. The fact that Lowe and Fardy were signed last year shows how competitive Leinster are in the market with help from the IRFU. 

Leinster aren't propping anyone up player wise. Players are leaving to get first team rugby elsewhere, they were never staying here, nothing to do with the IRFU.

The Leinster academy and development set up is clearly propping up the others. Hell, Nucifora is giving Leinster ultimatums about moving players on, such is the level of gerrymandering.

You also seem unaware that Leinster's salary spend is pretty much up there with the salary cap in the Top 14 already. Private ownership would allow Leinster to comfortably outstrip that, as Leinster aren't confined by a salary cap. 
So what Leinster players have been forced to move elsewhere? Jordi Murphy himself said he sought the move to Ulster himself to try guarantee his place at the world cup dues to the log jam in the backrow at Leinster.

You keep saying Leinster spend loads of money... I know they do hence why Sexton is one of the best paid players I  world rugby with the help from the IRFU. You still haven't explained how Leinster could compete financially on their own. If your suggesting a sugar daddy comes in and throws his checkbook around; I'm sure I can speak for every Leinster fan and say no thanks. Leinster is spending near the salary cap thanks to the IRFU.


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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Wed 02 May 2018, 5:24 pm

So what I’ve gathered from today is that Leinster and the Dragons have around the same sort of player budget. Have to take my hat off to Leinster and the amount they get out of the squad for the cost.

Well done clap
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 02 May 2018, 5:26 pm

There's no one system that works. You can see that from the fact there's been several winners of the league. Even private ownership you see different models and successes.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 02 May 2018, 6:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's no one system that works. You can see that from the fact there's been several winners of the league.  Even private ownership you see different models and successes.

Yep. Would be good if either Munster or Edinburgh won it this year - neither of them have won anything for years.......
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by TJ on Thu 03 May 2018, 6:16 am

I asked a couple of questions that have not been answered
1) What revenue streams do you think some pro 14 teams have that the others do not?  All get paid the same from the pro 14, all are able to do local sponsership deals, all get some money from the 6N income, all get some income from the european competitions, all get some income from ticket sales.

2) who is the highest paid welsh player and how much do they get?  OK Hogg is £375000 not £300000.  I bet there are a dozen welsh players on more

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by furra_linee on Thu 03 May 2018, 8:46 am

TJ - I guess some local sponsorship deals will be much more lucrative than others.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by munkian on Thu 03 May 2018, 8:50 am

furra_linee wrote:TJ - I guess some local sponsorship deals will be much more lucrative than others.

Are you suggesting that a team based in the most expensive part of a country's capital city could pull in more money than a team based in a fairly deprived city in a fairly deprived area of the UK ?

Madness !
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Thu 03 May 2018, 8:51 am

Pot Hale wrote:

Nonetheless, if you lump all the player salaries together - central and provincial - then I reckon your original €9m for Leinster is not far off anyway - €6m provincial + 7 Cat A x €400-450k avg = €9m. approx

All that said, I reckon both our estimates are high.  Paddy Jackson is reported to have been on a £250k provincial contract in Ulster.  O'Mahony's central contract is reported to be €450k a year although this may have some test match bonuses included.   Furlong is reported to be on a €425k Cat A contract with similar test bonus payments.  Here's an extract from an Irish Times article on the subject in Nov 2017:

Zebo was offered €400k before tax to stay. The salaries of the Welsh teams include tax, but I don't know if the figures you provide for Ireland do the same.

And, of course, we don't to reclaim 10 years' worth of (part) tax over here.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Thu 03 May 2018, 8:53 am

Brendan wrote:Fine Phil sorry that I am not the best writer of English we all can't be perfect medically

Answer these simple questions
1. What is the money spent on players by Welsh regions or the salary cap that is self imposed by the regions
2. What figure do you feel the SRU spend on players wages at their two clubs (you have now accepted the 25m is for all costs so making progress)
3. Based off the answers of the first two questions what is the ratio of Welsh spend to Scottish spend
4. Should an organisation who owns a private club/region be allowed to spend as much as they want on their team.
5. Is the WRU an organisation who purchased a private club/region

1. There is no salary cap. The playing budgets are approximately £6m Turks, £6m Ospreys, £5.5m Cardiff, £4.5m (for next season) Dragons
2. I didn't accept it was for "all costs". I even copied and pasted the extract from the SRU Annual Report that proved it wasn't "for all costs". I' say Glasgow's spend is over £6m and Edinburgh's about £5m.
3. You can work that out.
4. Yes.
5. Part purchased, yes.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by TJ on Thu 03 May 2018, 8:55 am

yes some teams will be able to get bigger sponsership deals - I would expect the welsh with their traditional adherence to rugby to be able to ;-)

However its still "THE SAME REVENUE STREAMS" for all clubs and sponsership is a small part of the mix

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Thu 03 May 2018, 8:55 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:

They are not 'around' the same.

You're educating a bloke who didn't know that the IRFU employed all of the players in Ireland. That's the level of martyn's exposure to this subject, remember.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Thu 03 May 2018, 8:56 am

marty2086 wrote:So a poster saying Leinsters is 9million is proof of their budget and Dragons is £3.5m because Simon Thomas said it was nearly 18months ago and it's not like they have been taken over and increased their budget since then Rolling Eyes

Like I said, ironic you accuse others of being inaccurate

That is incoherent, at best.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Thu 03 May 2018, 8:58 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
So what Leinster players have been forced to move elsewhere? Jordi Murphy himself said he sought the move to Ulster himself to try guarantee his place at the world cup dues to the log jam in the backrow at Leinster.

You keep saying Leinster spend loads of money... I know they do hence why Sexton is one of the best paid players I  world rugby with the help from the IRFU. You still haven't explained how Leinster could compete financially on their own. If your suggesting a sugar daddy comes in and throws his checkbook around; I'm sure I can speak for every Leinster fan and say no thanks. Leinster is spending near the salary cap thanks to the IRFU.

I didn't claim any individual had been FORCED to move elsewhere.

If Leinster were on their own, in private ownership, they could spend more money.

I never understand the Irish mentality that wouldn't want private ownership. Especially when so many of that mindset follow pro soccer.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Thu 03 May 2018, 8:58 am

TJ wrote:I asked a couple of questions that have not been answered
1) What revenue streams do you think some pro 14 teams have that the others do not?  All get paid the same from the pro 14, all are able to do local sponsership deals, all get some money from the 6N income, all get some income from the european competitions, all get some income from ticket sales.

2) who is the highest paid welsh player and how much do they get?  OK Hogg is £375000 not £300000.  I bet there are a dozen welsh players on more


1) The sponsorship deals will vastly differ, at a guess. That’s not a moan (although I’m sure you want it to be a moan though!). Rather, that’s the challenge for the Welsh regions - they need to try harder to get the big sponsorship deals. Again, I doubt anyone’s got the figures but I imagine Leinster’s deal brings in a lot more than the Dragons deal, for example.

When you say 6N income, what do you mean? Why would the clubs get any 6N income? The international players will get payments for playing/winning, but that would be totally separate from their clubs as they’re completely different employers.

I guess ticket sales is another area where there would be a difference. Again, not a moan but just another area where there is a difference (Ireland crowds generally significantly larger than welsh regional crowds) and where revenues will differ. Another challenge where we need to improve.

2) I don’t think anyone genuinely knows, which is why no one is answering. I certainly haven’t seen any articles naming the highest paid welsh players and listing their salaries. Sorry. According to Phil it will be Moriarty next season. At a guess I’d say £300-£350k for him, but that would be a completely wild guess.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Thu 03 May 2018, 8:59 am

TJ wrote:I asked a couple of questions that have not been answered
1) What revenue streams do you think some pro 14 teams have that the others do not?  All get paid the same from the pro 14, all are able to do local sponsership deals, all get some money from the 6N income, all get some income from the european competitions, all get some income from ticket sales.

2) who is the highest paid welsh player and how much do they get?  OK Hogg is £375000 not £300000.  I bet there are a dozen welsh players on more

1. All don't get the same from the PrO'14 because the PrO'14 money and 6N income and Euro income, for Ireland and Scotland, goes to the IRFU and SRU. Those unions then decide how to set budgets.

2. I already told you that Moriarty will be the highest paid Welsh player next season. He's rumoured to be on £450k.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Thu 03 May 2018, 9:00 am

TJ wrote:yes some teams will be able to get bigger sponsership deals - I would expect the welsh with their traditional adherence to rugby to be able to ;-)

However its still "THE SAME REVENUE STREAMS" for all clubs and sponsership is a small part of the mix

That's as ignorant as you claiming the sevens and refs etc. were paid from the pro game SRU spend.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Thu 03 May 2018, 9:01 am

TJ wrote:yes some teams will be able to get bigger sponsership deals - I would expect the welsh with their traditional adherence to rugby to be able to ;-)

However its still "THE SAME REVENUE STREAMS" for all clubs and sponsership is a small part of the mix


Streams are the same (or very similar), yes, but the revenues (amounts in £ or €) are not.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Thu 03 May 2018, 9:02 am

PhilBB wrote:
TJ wrote:I asked a couple of questions that have not been answered
1) What revenue streams do you think some pro 14 teams have that the others do not?  All get paid the same from the pro 14, all are able to do local sponsership deals, all get some money from the 6N income, all get some income from the european competitions, all get some income from ticket sales.

2) who is the highest paid welsh player and how much do they get?  OK Hogg is £375000 not £300000.  I bet there are a dozen welsh players on more

1. All don't get the same from the PrO'14 because the PrO'14 money and 6N income and Euro income, for Ireland and Scotland, goes to the IRFU and SRU. Those unions then decide how to set budgets.

2. I already told you that Moriarty will be the highest paid Welsh player next season. He's rumoured to be on £450k.


Yikes!
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Thu 03 May 2018, 9:02 am

The Oracle wrote:
2) I don’t think anyone genuinely knows, which is why no one is answering. I certainly haven’t seen any articles naming the highest paid welsh players and listing their salaries. Sorry. According to Phil it will be Moriarty next season. At a guess I’d say £300-£350k for him, but that would be a completely wild guess.

Buttress outbid a £400k NDC. Thinking about it, Warburton will be on more than Moriarty.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Thu 03 May 2018, 9:46 am

Pot Hale wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:There's no one system that works. You can see that from the fact there's been several winners of the league.  Even private ownership you see different models and successes.

Yep.  Would be good if either Munster or Edinburgh won it this year - neither of them have won anything for years.......

Can Ulster have a turn next year? Fingers Crossed

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 03 May 2018, 9:59 am

marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:There's no one system that works. You can see that from the fact there's been several winners of the league.  Even private ownership you see different models and successes.

Yep.  Would be good if either Munster or Edinburgh won it this year - neither of them have won anything for years.......

Can Ulster have a turn next year? Fingers Crossed

Seems only fair. Or else Benetton.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Thu 03 May 2018, 10:17 am

Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:There's no one system that works. You can see that from the fact there's been several winners of the league.  Even private ownership you see different models and successes.

Yep.  Would be good if either Munster or Edinburgh won it this year - neither of them have won anything for years.......

Can Ulster have a turn next year? Fingers Crossed

Seems only fair.  Or else Benetton.  

Just as long as we don't allow anymore Welsh teams to win it Run

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by TJ on Thu 03 May 2018, 10:18 am

Are you really attempting to claim that the welsh teams get less from the pro 14 - thats utter nonsense - all get the same. Its distributed thru a differnt chain for differnt unioins but the income per team is the same.

It really amuses me the everlast cries from the welsh of "its not fair" the welsh teams spend too much on keeping their "stars" in wales. thats why they have weaker wider squads. the scots teams don't do this.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 03 May 2018, 10:21 am

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

Nonetheless, if you lump all the player salaries together - central and provincial - then I reckon your original €9m for Leinster is not far off anyway - €6m provincial + 7 Cat A x €400-450k avg = €9m. approx

All that said, I reckon both our estimates are high.  Paddy Jackson is reported to have been on a £250k provincial contract in Ulster.  O'Mahony's central contract is reported to be €450k a year although this may have some test match bonuses included.   Furlong is reported to be on a €425k Cat A contract with similar test bonus payments.  Here's an extract from an Irish Times article on the subject in Nov 2017:

Zebo was offered €400k before tax to stay. The salaries of the Welsh teams include tax, but I don't know if the figures you provide for Ireland do the same.

And, of course, we don't to reclaim 10 years' worth of (part) tax over here.

I see no reason why the figures reported would not be gross figures.

The reclaiming of tax is based against what a player has already paid in tax whilst working. If someone is on €200k basic playing salary plus image rights, sponsorships, promotion fees of say another €70k and has expenses, etc deducted from that of say €40k then the tax relief/credit of 40% of the gross may not be that large. €92k paid in tax while working would see the relief change that ‘tax due’ figure to €80k. A rebate of €12k.

Anyways, it’s all a bit too much guesswork based on media articles and what one fan said to another, so I’ll leave it there.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 03 May 2018, 10:28 am

TJ wrote:Are you really attempting to claim that the welsh teams get less from the pro 14 - thats utter nonsense - all get the same.  Its distributed thru a differnt chain for differnt unioins but the income per team is the same.  

It really amuses me the everlast cries from the welsh of "its not fair"  the welsh teams spend too much on keeping their "stars" in wales.  thats why they have weaker wider squads.  the scots teams don't do this.

You'll have to define "From the pro14". All teams should get the same competition moneys earned.

That is very different (and totally irrelevant) from the totally nosnensical scribblings you wrote earlier:

the budgets for players are all around the same amounts. Leinster at the top, zebre at the bottom. The welsh clubs are not disadvantaged financially.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Thu 03 May 2018, 10:31 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:Are you really attempting to claim that the welsh teams get less from the pro 14 - thats utter nonsense - all get the same.  Its distributed thru a differnt chain for differnt unioins but the income per team is the same.  

It really amuses me the everlast cries from the welsh of "its not fair"  the welsh teams spend too much on keeping their "stars" in wales.  thats why they have weaker wider squads.  the scots teams don't do this.

You'll have to define "From the pro14". All teams should get the same competition moneys earned.

That is very different (and totally irrelevant) from the totally nosnensical scribblings you wrote earlier:

the budgets for players are all around the same amounts.  Leinster at the top, zebre at the bottom.   The welsh clubs are not disadvantaged financially.

So the winner of the competition should get the same as the team at the bottom? Rolling Eyes

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Thu 03 May 2018, 10:34 am

TJ wrote:Are you really attempting to claim that the welsh teams get less from the pro 14 - thats utter nonsense - all get the same.  Its distributed thru a differnt chain for differnt unioins but the income per team is the same.  

It really amuses me the everlast cries from the welsh of "its not fair"  the welsh teams spend too much on keeping their "stars" in wales.  thats why they have weaker wider squads.  the scots teams don't do this.


And there it is!!! As predicted! Only a matter of time before TJ took a swipe and tried to turn this into ‘the Welsh are complaining that it’s not fair’. You are pathetic. No one is saying that it’s not fair. We are all having a conversation about diffences in income and expenditure.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 03 May 2018, 10:35 am

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:Are you really attempting to claim that the welsh teams get less from the pro 14 - thats utter nonsense - all get the same.  Its distributed thru a differnt chain for differnt unioins but the income per team is the same.  

It really amuses me the everlast cries from the welsh of "its not fair"  the welsh teams spend too much on keeping their "stars" in wales.  thats why they have weaker wider squads.  the scots teams don't do this.

You'll have to define "From the pro14". All teams should get the same competition moneys earned.

That is very different (and totally irrelevant) from the totally nosnensical scribblings you wrote earlier:

the budgets for players are all around the same amounts.  Leinster at the top, zebre at the bottom.   The welsh clubs are not disadvantaged financially.

So the winner of the competition should get the same as the team at the bottom? Rolling Eyes

Fair point that, obviously we're talking regular season income. Winner should get prize money and play off teams get some split of gates etc.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Thu 03 May 2018, 10:35 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:Are you really attempting to claim that the welsh teams get less from the pro 14 - thats utter nonsense - all get the same.  Its distributed thru a differnt chain for differnt unioins but the income per team is the same.  

It really amuses me the everlast cries from the welsh of "its not fair"  the welsh teams spend too much on keeping their "stars" in wales.  thats why they have weaker wider squads.  the scots teams don't do this.

You'll have to define "From the pro14". All teams should get the same competition moneys earned.

That is very different (and totally irrelevant) from the totally nosnensical scribblings you wrote earlier:

the budgets for players are all around the same amounts.  Leinster at the top, zebre at the bottom.   The welsh clubs are not disadvantaged financially.

So the winner of the competition should get the same as the team at the bottom? Rolling Eyes

Fair point that, obviously we're talking regular season income. Winner should get prize money and play off teams get some split of gates etc.

You mean like what is already happening?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by TJ on Thu 03 May 2018, 10:36 am

but it is true - all teams have similar budgets and the welsh are not financially disadvantaged - thats the truth. You may not like it as it takes away your excuse for underperforming but it remains true.

the irish do not have access to a magic money pot that no one else has. Its ony 5 years ago the scots teams had the lowest budgets in the league.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 03 May 2018, 10:37 am

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TJ wrote:Are you really attempting to claim that the welsh teams get less from the pro 14 - thats utter nonsense - all get the same.  Its distributed thru a differnt chain for differnt unioins but the income per team is the same.  

It really amuses me the everlast cries from the welsh of "its not fair"  the welsh teams spend too much on keeping their "stars" in wales.  thats why they have weaker wider squads.  the scots teams don't do this.

You'll have to define "From the pro14". All teams should get the same competition moneys earned.

That is very different (and totally irrelevant) from the totally nosnensical scribblings you wrote earlier:

the budgets for players are all around the same amounts.  Leinster at the top, zebre at the bottom.   The welsh clubs are not disadvantaged financially.

So the winner of the competition should get the same as the team at the bottom? Rolling Eyes

Fair point that, obviously we're talking regular season income. Winner should get prize money and play off teams get some split of gates etc.

You mean like what is already happening?

Errrm, yes Marty.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 03 May 2018, 10:37 am

TJ wrote:but it is true - all teams have similar budgets and the welsh are not financially disadvantaged - thats the truth.  You may not like it as it takes away your excuse for underperforming but it remains true.
 

Why are you still typing these lies?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 03 May 2018, 10:38 am

TJ wrote:Are you really attempting to claim that the welsh teams get less from the pro 14 - thats utter nonsense - all get the same.  Its distributed thru a differnt chain for differnt unioins but the income per team is the same.  

It really amuses me the everlast cries from the welsh of "its not fair"  the welsh teams spend too much on keeping their "stars" in wales.  thats why they have weaker wider squads.  the scots teams don't do this.

TJ - the unions don’t get all the same. The WRU get more from the PRO14 because their terrestrial TV deal with BBC Wales was better. That may change under the new TV deal. The FIR or SARU don’t benefit from the old or new deal - it only benefits the three union shareholders. In addition, Competition Income from PRO14 has performance and bonus/prize money payments as well, so that affects total amounts too. Look at the annual reports for the unions and you’ll see.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Thu 03 May 2018, 10:41 am

TJ wrote:but it is true - all teams have similar budgets and the welsh are not financially disadvantaged - thats the truth.  You may not like it as it takes away your excuse for underperforming but it remains true.

the irish do not have access to a magic money pot that no one else has.  Its ony 5 years ago the scots teams had the lowest budgets in the league.  


How is £3.5m and £7m similar? It’s double. You’re obviously trolling. Wish the mods would sort you out.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by TJ on Thu 03 May 2018, 11:20 am

oracle - no I just understand what is going on somewhat better than you do and am fed up of the welsh fans claiming they are hard done by financially when its clear they are not.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

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