The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

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The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

Some of the Irish provinces seem to be doing fine.  Munster might be able to pay back a few shillings to Landsdowne HQ this season.  Leinster have finally started sharing. Connacht have survived Mr Grumpy and have managed another Challenge Cup quarter.  Could they make the final?
Ulster need a separate topic to cover all their issues.  Oh - and they have one.  

Italy.  Treviso are now Benetton and improving to the point of it being grudgingly admitted outside of Italy.  Zebre?  See Ulster above.  The FIR continue to fiddle the other unions while Rome burns.  

Scarlets on the other hand continue to see Byrne roam.  And sidestep.  The WRU must be grinning from ear to ear as Scarlets are simply steaming.   Who needs union monies when you can assemble a squad like this?  Top of their conference and finishing top of their pool in front of a packed house to gain a home quarterfinal in the Champions Cup. What more could you ask for?  Possibly a sneaky Welsh cap for Tadgh Beirne but little else to complain about.  If Gatland can harness the Scarlets, a la Leinster and Glasgow, and get Wales moving to the top in the Six Nations, the WRU might need to send a little more love (hard cash) over Llanelli way to encourage them further.  

Dragons got bought by the WRU.  And then hired an Irish coach. And then fixed their pitch.  And then things went so so.  And the jury went out on Jackman.  And then they started losing. A lot.  And then they had lots of announcements about new players for next season. And then they got knocked out of the Challenge Cup.  
And now it’s a wait for another season.  Not sure if the jury has come back in yet but Jackman has a battle on his hands.  

Ospreys continue to plumb new depths and eventually decided to fire their coach after failing in the Champions Cup once again.  Will they be in the Challenge Cup next season?

Cardiff have at least made the knockouts of the Challenge Cup but they’re still batting eyes at the WRU some say.  Will they succumb to the union’s clutches?

All the way down to Port Elizabeth for the new entrants.

The Southern Kings? See Zebre.  X 100.   Massive squad revamp needed and SARU investment.

Cheetahs?   Just when they’d notched another triumph on their league bedpost, came the news that another of their players had been nicked for another SR side. Their top try scorer is leaving too.  They’ve 8 wins in the bag, can they get a few more to make it into the playoffs?  

And finally the Scots.  Cockerill is definitely making inroads and if it doesn’t happen this season, they’ll be making life difficult in 2018/19 for a few of the higher up clubs. Their sassy and classy neighbours look strong prospects for the Championship title with a single loss so far.   Not too long ago, the SRU was making plaintive noises about the costs of running the two clubs and seeking private investors.  Then they went quiet.  Then they announced a profit for the first time in a long while.  And investment in academy is starting to pay off.  And the Test team isn’t doing too shabby either.  SRU CEO, Mark Dodson, says long term objective is to secure external investment to ensure the future of the game.  

We’ve had the first inkling of a change and expected increase in TV revenues for the Championship with EirSport announced as the new broadcaster for games in the Irish territory.  Anayi & Co still have to deliver a substantial increase on previous revenues.  The SARU/SuperSport deal has ensured part of that with a reported 36m six-year agreement.   What will GB deliver?

Private investment and Union control/money.  Will a happy marriage eventually be reached?
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue May 22, 2018 1:47 am

Brendan wrote:
Intotouch wrote:Brendan if SA do see the North as having weaker teams then surely this would make them want to keep their super rugby sides playing where they are? Otherwise they'd risk their teams playing at a lower standard to win and therefore becoming weaker themselves.

South Africa like New Zealand and England believe they have they produce enough players to the top standard to be the best in the world
South Africa still want to stay in the 4 Nations to keep to their best.  The problem they have is at club level they might be playing 4 of the top teams (excluding Blues) with rubbish teams because they can't keep their top players.  If they don't keep their top players they get nothing from club level but fan disillusionment.

Already happened in Australia - currently Australian sides have lost the last 31 games against Kiwi sides.
The viewing figures in Australia are beyond pathetic - half those of Netball.
Calls there for Australia to develop its own league and stuff the Super 15.

In SA there is a lot of disenchantment about the sidelining of the Currie Cup.
It is their sacred cow, like Top14 and the Home Internationals.
I can see them being happy with teams in the Pro14 and a revamp Currie Cup if the Super15 goes tits up; which it will if the Australians give up

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Tue May 22, 2018 1:50 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
Already happened in Australia - currently Australian sides have lost the last 31 games against Kiwi sides.

May want to catch up on this weekends Super Rugby geoff Whistle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAYmEz3W9zc

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Tue May 22, 2018 2:22 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think you have to acknowledge the add ons and work around s that occur.

There are none in the DNACG ('workarounds') as that is audited heavily. Just ask Biarritz.

If a club sponsor wants to also employ a player outside of rugby, I can't see why anybody would think that a problem. The salary, hence liability, isn't landed with the club and we know that this is a favourite approach of the IRFU. There's nothing wrong with it. In fact, it should be encouraged.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Tue May 22, 2018 2:27 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
Ignoring the last sentence dig I suspect with central contracts Leinster do indeed come close to that.
However that is the French average there will be half a dozen French team who are way over that from anything from 30% to 80% more
That remains a huge difference.
I also would be certain the bigger English clubs get up to that level - although interestingly not necessarily the most successful, in the last two league years, i.e. Exeter.
Leinster and Exeter are over performing given their budgets.

There's no 'dig'. It's the truth. Even as recently as the Euro Final there was at least one story in the Irish press labelling Leinster as "paupers" next to Racing. The Irish narrative is that the nasty English and French outspend them when, but for a couple of years, that hasn't been the case for much of the last decade and longer.

The average of the top four spenders was just €10.5m.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdG3J1UWkAAJZKF.jpg:large That image will show you what you need to know.

To claim Leinster as "over performing" is hilariously funny.

Exeter's total club wage bill was £8.6m for their last accounts. They are doing well by being relatively unharmed by international call ups.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue May 22, 2018 3:49 am

So there are work around s. Cheers.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue May 22, 2018 4:36 am

The French outspend the Irish and have for the decade you mention.
They also outspend the top English side.
They are very 'creative' when it comes to what is included in player salaries
Basically the bend the rules to breaking point

The Irish have gone public in stating their aim is to match the top English sides
That is getting harder year on year - but hopefully the Premier Sports money injection will continue to make it possible
At the moment I suspect only Leinster match the salary bill of the top English sides like Saracens and Wasps.
Both Munster and Ulster are lower down the ladder in that regard


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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue May 22, 2018 4:37 am

marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Already happened in Australia - currently Australian sides have lost the last 31 games against Kiwi sides.

May want to catch up on this weekends Super Rugby geoff  Whistle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAYmEz3W9zc

Damn should have posted last Friday picard

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Brendan on Tue May 22, 2018 7:02 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Already happened in Australia - currently Australian sides have lost the last 31 games against Kiwi sides.

May want to catch up on this weekends Super Rugby geoff  Whistle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAYmEz3W9zc

Damn should have posted last Friday picard

It did get to 40 before it ended. I don't think during the dark days of Italian pro 12 life they went nearly two years without beating at least one team from each of the other countries. The Blues have been poor yet last year they beat all Oz teams yet lost the the Sunwolves. This year the blues have won 3 games and none against the other NZ teams so not a great team.

Super Rugby is Super because of 4 NZ teams. I think the rest would find the going though against teams such as Leinster, Scarlets, Exeter, Sarries, and top few French teams. The 8 quarter finalists of the champs cup are as good as the SR teams (excluding the 4 NZ teams). The S.A. team are good at home but have struggled on the road in both Oz and NZ. We saw the same thing with the cheetahs in the Pro14. I base this off the following observations. Excluding the ABs and Italy the rest of the countries in the top two international competitions and Fiji are around the same level. The teams above are stacked with proven internationals and the lesser players are as good as the less players in the SR teams. Yes the SR teams are better skills but we see at international level apart from the ABs NH style play does grand against the skills of S.A. and Oz

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Tue May 22, 2018 9:09 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:The French outspend the Irish and have for the decade you mention.
They also outspend the top English side.
They are very 'creative' when it comes to what is included in player salaries
Basically the bend the rules to breaking point

The Irish have gone public in stating their aim is to match the top English sides
That is getting harder year on year - but hopefully the Premier Sports money injection will continue to make it possible
At the moment I suspect only Leinster match the salary bill of the top English sides like Saracens and Wasps.
Both Munster and Ulster are lower down the ladder in that regard


I see that you're unaware of the DNACG when you make claims like "bend the rules to breaking point". Oh well.

Leinster outspend the English salary cap, so it is not "getting harder year on year". Munster won't be far behind and Ulster will be over £7m.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Tue May 22, 2018 9:11 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So there are work around s. Cheers.

Like Aer Lingus and Topaz?
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue May 22, 2018 9:16 pm

Don't care. Just glad you acknowledged the salary cap is 'workable'. Or just plain ignored in some cases.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Brendan on Tue May 22, 2018 9:46 pm

Does anyone know the make up of the Conferences next season or is it the same as this year

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue May 22, 2018 10:04 pm

PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:The French outspend the Irish and have for the decade you mention.
They also outspend the top English side.
They are very 'creative' when it comes to what is included in player salaries
Basically the bend the rules to breaking point

The Irish have gone public in stating their aim is to match the top English sides
That is getting harder year on year - but hopefully the Premier Sports money injection will continue to make it possible
At the moment I suspect only Leinster match the salary bill of the top English sides like Saracens and Wasps.
Both Munster and Ulster are lower down the ladder in that regard


I see that you're unaware of the DNACG when you make claims like "bend the rules to breaking point". Oh well.

Leinster outspend the English salary cap, so it is not "getting harder year on year". Munster won't be far behind and Ulster will be over £7m.

Clearly you don't understand how Provinces are funded and what is included in their accounts.
Cant be arsed to re-educate you again

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Tue May 22, 2018 11:28 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Don't care. Just glad you acknowledged the salary cap is 'workable'. Or just plain ignored in some cases.

Erm, you seem unaware that those earrings aren't included in a salary cap. The cap is what is paid by the rugby employer, so it's not workable. You seem to think having another job makes the earnings of the first job "workable".
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Tue May 22, 2018 11:30 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:

Clearly you don't understand how Provinces are funded and what is included in their accounts.
Cant be arsed to re-educate you again

They don't publish accounts. They also don't hold the player contracts.

There's no ignorance from me on this. I spent months educating some Irish folk on here of the proper set up, in the face of dog's abuse, only for them to crawl away after the IRFU stepped in over the Belfast incident.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed May 23, 2018 12:08 am

Work around s exactly Phil. Dodgy dealings and plain ignoring of caps. It's good the Irish model looks able compete and actually blow some.private owners out of the water though.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Sin é on Wed May 23, 2018 12:20 am

Don't Ulster rugby publish accounts?
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Wed May 23, 2018 12:20 am

Brendan wrote:Does anyone know the make up of the Conferences next season or is it the same as this year

I believe going on the Ireland 1, 4, Wales 2, 3, Scotland 1, Italy 2, SA 2 and the reverse the tables should technically be the same. However, it’s my understanding of it Leinster and Minster swap or Scarlets and Blues swap as the finalists can’t be in the same pools. Guess the winner keeps the in the conference with their national 4th.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Wed May 23, 2018 12:44 am

Sin é wrote:Don't Ulster rugby publish accounts?

They do as part of their annual report and I also believe the other 3 provinces can be obtained from the CRO

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Wed May 23, 2018 1:35 am

marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:Don't Ulster rugby publish accounts?

They do as part of their annual report and I also believe the other 3 provinces can be obtained from the CRO

If you can point out how they can be obtained from the CRO, I'd be grateful.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Wed May 23, 2018 1:37 am

PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:

Clearly you don't understand how Provinces are funded and what is included in their accounts.
Cant be arsed to re-educate you again

They don't publish accounts. They also don't hold the player contracts.

There's no ignorance from me on this. I spent months educating some Irish folk on here of the proper set up, in the face of dog's abuse, only for them to crawl away after the IRFU stepped in over the Belfast incident.

"Months educating" "crawl away"

Seriously?
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Wed May 23, 2018 1:44 am

Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:Don't Ulster rugby publish accounts?

They do as part of their annual report and I also believe the other 3 provinces can be obtained from the CRO

If you can point out how they can be obtained from the CRO, I'd be grateful.  

Just search for Leinster/Munster/Connacht Rugby here

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Wed May 23, 2018 3:05 am

marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:Don't Ulster rugby publish accounts?

They do as part of their annual report and I also believe the other 3 provinces can be obtained from the CRO

If you can point out how they can be obtained from the CRO, I'd be grateful.  

Just search for Leinster/Munster/Connacht Rugby here

I'm familiar with CRO website. It doesn't provide you with their accounts though.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Wed May 23, 2018 7:12 pm

Sin é wrote:Don't Ulster rugby publish accounts?

They produce a report that hides significant sums as "flow between companies", with regards to its owner.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Wed May 23, 2018 7:12 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:

Clearly you don't understand how Provinces are funded and what is included in their accounts.
Cant be arsed to re-educate you again

They don't publish accounts. They also don't hold the player contracts.

There's no ignorance from me on this. I spent months educating some Irish folk on here of the proper set up, in the face of dog's abuse, only for them to crawl away after the IRFU stepped in over the Belfast incident.

"Months educating"   "crawl away"

Seriously?  

You've just responded to the prime suspect.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Wed May 23, 2018 7:12 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:Don't Ulster rugby publish accounts?

They do as part of their annual report and I also believe the other 3 provinces can be obtained from the CRO

If you can point out how they can be obtained from the CRO, I'd be grateful.  

Just search for Leinster/Munster/Connacht Rugby here

I'm familiar with CRO website.   It doesn't provide you with their accounts though.

Ouch.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Wed May 23, 2018 9:29 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:Don't Ulster rugby publish accounts?

They do as part of their annual report and I also believe the other 3 provinces can be obtained from the CRO

If you can point out how they can be obtained from the CRO, I'd be grateful.  

Just search for Leinster/Munster/Connacht Rugby here

I'm familiar with CRO website.   It doesn't provide you with their accounts though.

Really? Yet they are there, funny that

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Wed May 23, 2018 9:30 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Sin é wrote:Don't Ulster rugby publish accounts?

They produce a report that hides significant sums as "flow between companies", with regards to its owner.

Laugh

Prove it or you're a liar

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Brendan on Wed May 23, 2018 10:05 pm

Phill all we ever seem to get in these discussions is that the SRU and IRFU teams are better funded than the private Welsh teams. If the WRU had total control of the 4 teams they could put in as much as the others (though that figure can't be confirmed). So by your own statements you are saying private Welsh teams would be better off if they moved to union control. As the WRU earn more they would be even better funded. So thanks for agreeing union control is best for teams in the Pro14

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Hazel Sapling on Wed May 23, 2018 10:24 pm

Be interesting to see how the Dragons are treated. They certainly have recruited better under WRU control and, if they can sort them out into a decent side, surely the next step is looking at the Blues. No reason for the Blues region to not be considerably better off the pitch and getting a regular gate in the 8-10k range.

I will be interested to see the financial situation of each union come the end of the year reports. The addition of the 2 South African sides against the loss of a home game (for Scotland and Italy; 2 for Ireland and Wales) should be offset. In particular, would like to see a comparison of the Cheetahs and Kings to years past to see if they can realistically finance competitive teams.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by munkian on Wed May 23, 2018 10:25 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:Be interesting to see how the Dragons are treated. They certainly have recruited better under WRU control and, if they can sort them out into a decent side, surely the next step is looking at the Blues. No reason for the Blues region to not be considerably better off the pitch and getting a regular gate in the 8-10k range.

I will be interested to see the financial situation of each union come the end of the year reports. The addition of the 2 South African sides against the loss of a home game (for Scotland and Italy; 2 for Ireland and Wales) should be offset. In particular, would like to see a comparison of the Cheetahs and Kings to years past to see if they can realistically finance competitive teams.

I'd say Ospreys need looking at sooner, loads of players gone and not many signings.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Stone Motif on Thu May 24, 2018 12:24 am

Hazel Sapling wrote:Be interesting to see how the Dragons are treated. They certainly have recruited better under WRU control and, if they can sort them out into a decent side, surely the next step is looking at the Blues. No reason for the Blues region to not be considerably better off the pitch and getting a regular gate in the 8-10k range.

I will be interested to see the financial situation of each union come the end of the year reports. The addition of the 2 South African sides against the loss of a home game (for Scotland and Italy; 2 for Ireland and Wales) should be offset. In particular, would like to see a comparison of the Cheetahs and Kings to years past to see if they can realistically finance competitive teams.

As I've asked several times on this forum, how have Dragons recruited better? The only position they've categorically strengthened is SH (though I'm hopeful Hibbard will have a swansong of Charvisesque proportions and that Mr Brightside will prove an under he radar monster at lock, jury is out on both).
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Thu May 24, 2018 1:53 am

Brendan wrote:Phill all we ever seem to get in these discussions is that the SRU and IRFU teams are better funded than the private Welsh teams. If the WRU had total control of the 4 teams they could put in as much as the others (though that figure can't be confirmed).  So by your own statements you are saying private Welsh teams would be better off if they moved to union control.  As the WRU earn more they would be even better funded. So thanks for agreeing union control is best for teams in the Pro14

Fair play, that's one of the most inept comprehensions of finance that I've ever read. It's up there with that clown who couldn't read the SRU annual report.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Thu May 24, 2018 1:54 am

Hazel Sapling wrote:Be interesting to see how the Dragons are treated. They certainly have recruited better under WRU control and, if they can sort them out into a decent side, surely the next step is looking at the Blues. No reason for the Blues region to not be considerably better off the pitch and getting a regular gate in the 8-10k range.

I will be interested to see the financial situation of each union come the end of the year reports. The addition of the 2 South African sides against the loss of a home game (for Scotland and Italy; 2 for Ireland and Wales) should be offset. In particular, would like to see a comparison of the Cheetahs and Kings to years past to see if they can realistically finance competitive teams.

Why on earth would you expect a regular gate of 10k at Cardiff? That would equate to 40k at Leinster.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Thu May 24, 2018 1:55 am

Stone Motif wrote:

As I've asked several times on this forum, how have Dragons recruited better? The only position they've categorically strengthened is SH (though I'm hopeful Hibbard will have a swansong of Charvisesque proportions and that Mr Brightside will prove an under he radar monster at lock, jury is out on both).

Come on, that's not right. Jarvis is a step up over the leaving tight heads, Bevington a step up on Hobbs and Davies. They've lost some real dross from that squad.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Thu May 24, 2018 2:09 am

marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Sin é wrote:Don't Ulster rugby publish accounts?

They produce a report that hides significant sums as "flow between companies", with regards to its owner.

Laugh

Prove it or you're a liar

To be fair, they've upgraded the level of opaqueness with the new annual report by not even publishing any figures in a table.

However, point 8 on page 42 of the 2015/16 report "Related Party Transactions" was what I was thinking of.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Hazel Sapling on Thu May 24, 2018 2:52 am

PhilBB wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:Be interesting to see how the Dragons are treated. They certainly have recruited better under WRU control and, if they can sort them out into a decent side, surely the next step is looking at the Blues. No reason for the Blues region to not be considerably better off the pitch and getting a regular gate in the 8-10k range.

I will be interested to see the financial situation of each union come the end of the year reports. The addition of the 2 South African sides against the loss of a home game (for Scotland and Italy; 2 for Ireland and Wales) should be offset. In particular, would like to see a comparison of the Cheetahs and Kings to years past to see if they can realistically finance competitive teams.

Why on earth would you expect a regular gate of 10k at Cardiff? That would equate to 40k at Leinster.

On Blues getting 10k
- Based in the centre of the largest city in Wales
- Have the stadium capacity
- Sorted themselves out on the pitch this season after a dreadful start (I attended the Edinburgh and Glasgow games, Cardiff were not good)
- They have done it before

On Dragons recruitment
- Hibbard is an upgrade in the 23, not necessarily as a starter
- Jarvis is an upgrade in the 23
- Bevington is an upgrade in the 23
- Moriarty is a significant upgrade in the starting 15
- Depending on the view of the 2 Williams's vs Pretorius and O'Brien on whether that is an upgrade. Wait and see on that front
- Nansen has pedigree and should relieve the demands on Landman and Hill  
- Howells is young and has potential

There is certainly some more pedigree going into Dragons (6 Welsh and 1 Samoan international; 4 of whom are 25 and under) than leaving it (2 players to Scarlets, 1 to Kings, rest to a division below)

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Stone Motif on Thu May 24, 2018 2:58 am

PhilBB wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:

As I've asked several times on this forum, how have Dragons recruited better? The only position they've categorically strengthened is SH (though I'm hopeful Hibbard will have a swansong of Charvisesque proportions and that Mr Brightside will prove an under he radar monster at lock, jury is out on both).

Come on, that's not right. Jarvis is a step up over the leaving tight heads, Bevington a step up on Hobbs and Davies. They've lost some real dross from that squad.
yeah a case can be made for Jarvis but Bevington=Price for me. If he was better he'd have signed for the Scarlets if available.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Stone Motif on Thu May 24, 2018 3:03 am

Hazel Sapling wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:Be interesting to see how the Dragons are treated. They certainly have recruited better under WRU control and, if they can sort them out into a decent side, surely the next step is looking at the Blues. No reason for the Blues region to not be considerably better off the pitch and getting a regular gate in the 8-10k range.

I will be interested to see the financial situation of each union come the end of the year reports. The addition of the 2 South African sides against the loss of a home game (for Scotland and Italy; 2 for Ireland and Wales) should be offset. In particular, would like to see a comparison of the Cheetahs and Kings to years past to see if they can realistically finance competitive teams.

Why on earth would you expect a regular gate of 10k at Cardiff? That would equate to 40k at Leinster.

On Blues getting 10k
- Based in the centre of the largest city in Wales
- Have the stadium capacity
- Sorted themselves out on the pitch this season after a dreadful start (I attended the Edinburgh and Glasgow games, Cardiff were not good)
- They have done it before

On Dragons recruitment
- Hibbard is an upgrade in the 23, not necessarily as a starter
- Jarvis is an upgrade in the 23
- Bevington is an upgrade in the 23
- Moriarty is a significant upgrade in the starting 15
- Depending on the view of the 2 Williams's vs Pretorius and O'Brien on whether that is an upgrade. Wait and see on that front
- Nansen has pedigree and should relieve the demands on Landman and Hill  
- Howells is young and has potential

There is certainly some more pedigree going into Dragons (6 Welsh and 1 Samoan international; 4 of whom are 25 and under) than leaving it (2 players to Scarlets, 1 to Kings, rest to a division below)

Don't see it - forgot about Jarvis but the rest - meh. Moriarty won't play that much, the rest are like for like. Plus for every reasonable recruit there are two or three spurious signings and no indication that players have been recruited to enable the team to play the way Jackman has said he wants them to.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Brendan on Thu May 24, 2018 3:22 am

PhilBB wrote:
Brendan wrote:Phill all we ever seem to get in these discussions is that the SRU and IRFU teams are better funded than the private Welsh teams. If the WRU had total control of the 4 teams they could put in as much as the others (though that figure can't be confirmed).  So by your own statements you are saying private Welsh teams would be better off if they moved to union control.  As the WRU earn more they would be even better funded. So thanks for agreeing union control is best for teams in the Pro14

Fair play, that's one of the most inept comprehensions of finance that I've ever read. It's up there with that clown who couldn't read the SRU annual report.

You claim the IRFU are spending a lot more money on teams like Leinster and Munster out of their big central fund.
WRU central fund is bigger than the IRFU central fund.

Now I hope this part isn't to hard. The WRU as they have a bigger central fund can fund the four Welsh teams to the same level as the IRFU fund there current teams.

This then is the really hard part to understand. If the Welsh (being funded to the same level as the Irish teams) were suddenly some of the best funded team in the UK it means that being under union control is better.

Unless you are saying that the IRFU do better with the money and the Welsh waste theirs

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Thu May 24, 2018 3:25 am

Brendan wrote:
You claim the IRFU are spending a lot more money on teams like Leinster and Munster out of their big central fund.
WRU central fund is bigger than the IRFU central fund.

Now I hope this part isn't to hard. The WRU as they have a bigger central fund can fund the four Welsh teams to the same level as the IRFU fund there current teams.

This then is the really hard part to understand. If the Welsh (being funded to the same level as the Irish teams) were suddenly some of the best funded team in the UK it means that being under union control is better.

Unless you are saying that the IRFU do better with the money and the Welsh waste theirs

Your fatal error came in your second sentence. You then repeated it in your fourth sentence.

You've just underlined your complete ignorance as to the financial states of each union. In short, you're completely clueless.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Thu May 24, 2018 3:27 am

Hazel Sapling wrote:

On Blues getting 10k
- Based in the centre of the largest city in Wales
- Have the stadium capacity
- Sorted themselves out on the pitch this season after a dreadful start (I attended the Edinburgh and Glasgow games, Cardiff were not good)
- They have done it before


They don't have the population base to attract such regular numbers in a venue which they will have to pay to enter. There isn't the interest in the league to generate that kind of expected crowd size.

Achieving that would be a remarkable achievement.

A 33% rise in crowds: http://www.cardiffrfcfans.co.uk/analysis/club_attendances.php?seasonID=23&clubID=1

That would be an incredible achievement in this league.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by munkian on Thu May 24, 2018 3:28 am

Brendan wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Brendan wrote:Phill all we ever seem to get in these discussions is that the SRU and IRFU teams are better funded than the private Welsh teams. If the WRU had total control of the 4 teams they could put in as much as the others (though that figure can't be confirmed).  So by your own statements you are saying private Welsh teams would be better off if they moved to union control.  As the WRU earn more they would be even better funded. So thanks for agreeing union control is best for teams in the Pro14

Fair play, that's one of the most inept comprehensions of finance that I've ever read. It's up there with that clown who couldn't read the SRU annual report.

You claim the IRFU are spending a lot more money on teams like Leinster and Munster out of their big central fund.
WRU central fund is bigger than the IRFU central fund.

Now I hope this part isn't to hard. The WRU as they have a bigger central fund can fund the four Welsh teams to the same level as the IRFU fund there current teams.

This then is the really hard part to understand. If the Welsh (being funded to the same level as the Irish teams) were suddenly some of the best funded team in the UK it means that being under union control is better.

Unless you are saying that the IRFU do better with the money and the Welsh waste theirs

Where the hell are you getting that from ?
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Thu May 24, 2018 3:29 am

Hazel Sapling wrote:
On Dragons recruitment
- Hibbard is an upgrade in the 23, not necessarily as a starter
- Jarvis is an upgrade in the 23
- Bevington is an upgrade in the 23
- Moriarty is a significant upgrade in the starting 15
- Depending on the view of the 2 Williams's vs Pretorius and O'Brien on whether that is an upgrade. Wait and see on that front
- Nansen has pedigree and should relieve the demands on Landman and Hill  
- Howells is young and has potential

There is certainly some more pedigree going into Dragons (6 Welsh and 1 Samoan international; 4 of whom are 25 and under) than leaving it (2 players to Scarlets, 1 to Kings, rest to a division below)

I'm missing something - "2 Williams'"?

Nansen has played 4 games of domestic pro rugby, so what "pedigree" is that?
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Thu May 24, 2018 3:29 am

munkian wrote:

Where the hell are you getting that from ?

The poor chap thinks that the costs bases are the same.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by munkian on Thu May 24, 2018 3:33 am

PhilBB wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:
On Dragons recruitment
- Hibbard is an upgrade in the 23, not necessarily as a starter
- Jarvis is an upgrade in the 23
- Bevington is an upgrade in the 23
- Moriarty is a significant upgrade in the starting 15
- Depending on the view of the 2 Williams's vs Pretorius and O'Brien on whether that is an upgrade. Wait and see on that front
- Nansen has pedigree and should relieve the demands on Landman and Hill  
- Howells is young and has potential

There is certainly some more pedigree going into Dragons (6 Welsh and 1 Samoan international; 4 of whom are 25 and under) than leaving it (2 players to Scarlets, 1 to Kings, rest to a division below)

I'm missing something - "2 Williams'"?

Nansen has played 4 games of domestic pro rugby, so what "pedigree" is that?

Wiki -


Wales Jordan Williams from England Bristol Bears[33]
Wales Rhodri Williams from England Bristol Bears[33]
Wales Ross Moriarty from England Gloucester[34]
Wales Rhodri Davies from England Rotherham Titans[35]
Wales Richard Hibbard from England Gloucester[36]
England Huw Taylor from England Worcester Warriors[37]
Wales Josh Lewis from England Bath[38]
Wales Ryan Bevington from England Bristol Bears[39]
Wales Aaron Jarvis from France Clermont[40]
Wales Dafydd Howells from Wales Ospreys[41]
South Africa Tiaan Loots from Wales RGC 1404[42]
New Zealand Jacob Botica from Wales RGC 1404[43]
Wales Rhys Lawrence from England Ealing Trailfinders[44]
Samoa Brandon Nansen from France Stade Francais[45]

Nansen has just been picked for Samoa so we'll see how he does.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Thu May 24, 2018 3:36 am

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Sin é wrote:Don't Ulster rugby publish accounts?

They produce a report that hides significant sums as "flow between companies", with regards to its owner.

Laugh

Prove it or you're a liar

To be fair, they've upgraded the level of opaqueness with the new annual report by not even publishing any figures in a table.

However, point 8 on page 42 of the 2015/16 report "Related Party Transactions" was what I was thinking of.

They hide something by publishing in a term but you were too smart for them? Erm

The sad part is, you've obviously printed all these out and still read them picard

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Thu May 24, 2018 3:49 am

marty2086 wrote:
They hide something by publishing in a term but you were too smart for them? Erm

The sad part is, you've obviously printed all these out and still read them picard

I'd forgotten that you were so thick that a screenshot or a download is beyond you.

And the "hid" part equates to the volume of the exchange, not that the exchange occurs. Again, I'd forgotten how thick you were.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Thu May 24, 2018 3:51 am

munkian wrote:

Wales Jordan Williams from England Bristol Bears[33]

I'd forgotten him.

https://twitter.com/BrandonNansen/status/997999522172231692 Nansen seems up for it.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Hazel Sapling on Thu May 24, 2018 3:58 am

Not sure who you are expecting to sign at the Dragons. They have done pretty well considering the handicaps and got some guys with potential/older guys who can mentor the young Welsh internationals. You can't build a good rugby side in a day and these moves look like the beginning of something more. Whether they turn into meh remains to be seen. They are a better squad than a 2 win/2 draw suggests.

The accounts generally come out in late July (for the SRU). Is it similar for the rest?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

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