The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

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The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 24 Jan 2018, 12:09 am

First topic message reminder :

Some of the Irish provinces seem to be doing fine.  Munster might be able to pay back a few shillings to Landsdowne HQ this season.  Leinster have finally started sharing. Connacht have survived Mr Grumpy and have managed another Challenge Cup quarter.  Could they make the final?
Ulster need a separate topic to cover all their issues.  Oh - and they have one.  

Italy.  Treviso are now Benetton and improving to the point of it being grudgingly admitted outside of Italy.  Zebre?  See Ulster above.  The FIR continue to fiddle the other unions while Rome burns.  

Scarlets on the other hand continue to see Byrne roam.  And sidestep.  The WRU must be grinning from ear to ear as Scarlets are simply steaming.   Who needs union monies when you can assemble a squad like this?  Top of their conference and finishing top of their pool in front of a packed house to gain a home quarterfinal in the Champions Cup. What more could you ask for?  Possibly a sneaky Welsh cap for Tadgh Beirne but little else to complain about.  If Gatland can harness the Scarlets, a la Leinster and Glasgow, and get Wales moving to the top in the Six Nations, the WRU might need to send a little more love (hard cash) over Llanelli way to encourage them further.  

Dragons got bought by the WRU.  And then hired an Irish coach. And then fixed their pitch.  And then things went so so.  And the jury went out on Jackman.  And then they started losing. A lot.  And then they had lots of announcements about new players for next season. And then they got knocked out of the Challenge Cup.  
And now it’s a wait for another season.  Not sure if the jury has come back in yet but Jackman has a battle on his hands.  

Ospreys continue to plumb new depths and eventually decided to fire their coach after failing in the Champions Cup once again.  Will they be in the Challenge Cup next season?

Cardiff have at least made the knockouts of the Challenge Cup but they’re still batting eyes at the WRU some say.  Will they succumb to the union’s clutches?

All the way down to Port Elizabeth for the new entrants.

The Southern Kings? See Zebre.  X 100.   Massive squad revamp needed and SARU investment.

Cheetahs?   Just when they’d notched another triumph on their league bedpost, came the news that another of their players had been nicked for another SR side. Their top try scorer is leaving too.  They’ve 8 wins in the bag, can they get a few more to make it into the playoffs?  

And finally the Scots.  Cockerill is definitely making inroads and if it doesn’t happen this season, they’ll be making life difficult in 2018/19 for a few of the higher up clubs. Their sassy and classy neighbours look strong prospects for the Championship title with a single loss so far.   Not too long ago, the SRU was making plaintive noises about the costs of running the two clubs and seeking private investors.  Then they went quiet.  Then they announced a profit for the first time in a long while.  And investment in academy is starting to pay off.  And the Test team isn’t doing too shabby either.  SRU CEO, Mark Dodson, says long term objective is to secure external investment to ensure the future of the game.  

We’ve had the first inkling of a change and expected increase in TV revenues for the Championship with EirSport announced as the new broadcaster for games in the Irish territory.  Anayi & Co still have to deliver a substantial increase on previous revenues.  The SARU/SuperSport deal has ensured part of that with a reported 36m six-year agreement.   What will GB deliver?

Private investment and Union control/money.  Will a happy marriage eventually be reached?
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Stone Motif on Wed 23 May 2018, 5:25 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:Not sure who you are expecting to sign at the Dragons. They have done pretty well considering the handicaps and got some guys with potential/older guys who can mentor the young Welsh internationals. You can't build a good rugby side in a day and these moves look like the beginning of something more. Whether they turn into meh remains to be seen. They are a better squad than a 2 win/2 draw suggests.

The accounts generally come out in late July (for the SRU). Is it similar for the rest?

What's expectation got to do with it? It's about whether the signings translate into more Ws. I disagree they will but then I have had over a decade to hone my pessimism. I also think heave wasted what cash they had on vanity signings and repatriation for the sake of repatriation. Either of the Cheetahs the Scarlets signed would have been better value imo.

It seems you are trying to paint the signings in a positive light to prove some point about union ownership. The Dragons have always had guys with potential/older guys. It's why we're lovingly known as the Dregs round these parts. Not sure that's due to change next season.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by doctor_grey on Wed 23 May 2018, 5:28 pm

More Expansion????

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/may/22/super-rugby-is-gravely-ill-but-its-last-breath-is-yet-to-be-taken

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by carpet baboon on Wed 23 May 2018, 5:35 pm

Phil. Look we know. We understand
Your angry. You hate the Irish. You love the PRL but they just keep ignoring you.
We aren't saying our way is the best, but it works for us.
And I know whatever is missing in your life, trying to insult and belittle people on the internet gives you some tiny euphoria, but it's not healthy Phil.
Just accept your love for Mr wray and his pals will only ever be abused by them when they need your votes. Deep down you know they will never feel the same, it's time to move on Phill. For your own good.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Brendan on Wed 23 May 2018, 6:00 pm

munkian wrote:
Brendan wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Brendan wrote:Phill all we ever seem to get in these discussions is that the SRU and IRFU teams are better funded than the private Welsh teams. If the WRU had total control of the 4 teams they could put in as much as the others (though that figure can't be confirmed).  So by your own statements you are saying private Welsh teams would be better off if they moved to union control.  As the WRU earn more they would be even better funded. So thanks for agreeing union control is best for teams in the Pro14

Fair play, that's one of the most inept comprehensions of finance that I've ever read. It's up there with that clown who couldn't read the SRU annual report.

You claim the IRFU are spending a lot more money on teams like Leinster and Munster out of their big central fund.
WRU central fund is bigger than the IRFU central fund.

Now I hope this part isn't to hard. The WRU as they have a bigger central fund can fund the four Welsh teams to the same level as the IRFU fund there current teams.

This then is the really hard part to understand. If the Welsh (being funded to the same level as the Irish teams) were suddenly some of the best funded team in the UK it means that being under union control is better.

Unless you are saying that the IRFU do better with the money and the Welsh waste theirs

Where the hell are you getting that from ?

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/39473.php
RECORD TURNOVER AND RE-INVESTMENT

An impressive set of results for YE17 also sees Group turnover increase to £74.9m from £73.3m previously and, despite increased re-investment, the Group has also delivered reductions on its net bank debt to £9.4m from £11.0m in the prior year.

Allocations to the Regions amount to £21.0m (a lot bigger than I was expecting and is often claimed on here) which covers a few things but money going from the union to the regions.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/40152.php
IRFU accounts €76,585,833 (multiply by about 0.9 for £)

As far as I can tell the central pot of £74.9m is greater than €76.6m.
Again if you are saying the WRU are incompetent with their money that is another story. Also as has been pointed out due to the poorer region that is Wales running costs such as employees, rents etc would all be cheaper than in Ireland.

So what the Union gets is the central pot. They then decide how they want to spend it such as match fees, repairs, money to Pro 14 teams, money to academies, grass roots, club level etc. But WRU get £76m IRFU about £71m

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Hazel Sapling on Wed 23 May 2018, 6:17 pm

SM, expectation is that Toulon will sign Lions and NZ castoffs. Anything less than a Messam and a Webb is a probably a cause for pessimism. If you expect Dragons to recruit 7 internationals every offseason with 4 under 25, another under 30 (in the front row) and 2 with Lions caps even if they are not first choice for Wales, then you are more optimistic than me. It is your team not mine and you are welcome to your opinion. If Glasgow recruited Welsh (Jarvis), Lawson (Hibbard), Steele (R Williams), Heathcote (J Williams), Reid or Jack Cosgrove (Bevington), R Gray (Moriarty) and Cowan (Nansen), I would be quite happy.

I have preference for union over the sugar daddy model unless someone is going to throw serious money at a club a la Wray and Altrad. Another idea I quite like is the Barcelona (other examples exist) association form of ownership. For Wales, you can choose your way forward.

Do the regions publish individual accounts? I know that the Scots don't and judging by the argument going on, the Irish kind of.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Stone Motif on Wed 23 May 2018, 8:05 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:SM, expectation is that Toulon will sign Lions and NZ castoffs. Anything less than a Messam and a Webb is a probably a cause for pessimism. If you expect Dragons to recruit 7 internationals every offseason with 4 under 25, another under 30 (in the front row) and 2 with Lions caps even if they are not first choice for Wales, then you are more optimistic than me. It is your team not mine and you are welcome to your opinion. If Glasgow recruited Welsh (Jarvis), Lawson (Hibbard), Steele (R Williams), Heathcote (J Williams), Reid or Jack Cosgrove (Bevington), R Gray (Moriarty) and Cowan (Nansen), I would be quite happy.

I have preference for union over the sugar daddy model unless someone is going to throw serious money at a club a la Wray and Altrad. Another idea I quite like is the Barcelona (other examples exist) association form of ownership. For Wales, you can choose your way forward.

Do the regions publish individual accounts? I know that the Scots don't and judging by the argument going on, the Irish kind of.

Why do you think I expect them to sign top players? I mentioned two that are probably cheaper/definitely better value than what we've signed in Cassiem and Bloometjies
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Hazel Sapling on Thu 24 May 2018, 10:14 am

I don't SM. It is not something I can explain clearly. I wish you luck for next season

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by munkian on Thu 24 May 2018, 10:35 am

Hazel Sapling wrote:SM, expectation is that Toulon will sign Lions and NZ castoffs. Anything less than a Messam and a Webb is a probably a cause for pessimism. If you expect Dragons to recruit 7 internationals every offseason with 4 under 25, another under 30 (in the front row) and 2 with Lions caps even if they are not first choice for Wales, then you are more optimistic than me. It is your team not mine and you are welcome to your opinion. If Glasgow recruited Welsh (Jarvis), Lawson (Hibbard), Steele (R Williams), Heathcote (J Williams), Reid or Jack Cosgrove (Bevington), R Gray (Moriarty) and Cowan (Nansen), I would be quite happy.

I have preference for union over the sugar daddy model unless someone is going to throw serious money at a club a la Wray and Altrad. Another idea I quite like is the Barcelona (other examples exist) association form of ownership. For Wales, you can choose your way forward.

Do the regions publish individual accounts? I know that the Scots don't and judging by the argument going on, the Irish kind of.

I believe at least some of the Regions do, the Ospreys have this Morning.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Hazel Sapling on Thu 24 May 2018, 11:21 am

munkian wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:SM, expectation is that Toulon will sign Lions and NZ castoffs. Anything less than a Messam and a Webb is a probably a cause for pessimism. If you expect Dragons to recruit 7 internationals every offseason with 4 under 25, another under 30 (in the front row) and 2 with Lions caps even if they are not first choice for Wales, then you are more optimistic than me. It is your team not mine and you are welcome to your opinion. If Glasgow recruited Welsh (Jarvis), Lawson (Hibbard), Steele (R Williams), Heathcote (J Williams), Reid or Jack Cosgrove (Bevington), R Gray (Moriarty) and Cowan (Nansen), I would be quite happy.

I have preference for union over the sugar daddy model unless someone is going to throw serious money at a club a la Wray and Altrad. Another idea I quite like is the Barcelona (other examples exist) association form of ownership. For Wales, you can choose your way forward.

Do the regions publish individual accounts? I know that the Scots don't and judging by the argument going on, the Irish kind of.

I believe at least some of the Regions do, the Ospreys have this Morning.

I can see a news item with the operating loss (£400k approx) from the previous season (2016/2017). That is £330k more than the previous season. They were Champions Cup this year so should be better off when they announce 2017/2018.
http://www.ospreysrugby.com/News/Article/52261

Do you have a link by any chance to a fuller version of accounts? Can't see anywhere on the first page of Google or immediately available on the website

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by munkian on Thu 24 May 2018, 12:25 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:
munkian wrote:
Hazel Sapling wrote:SM, expectation is that Toulon will sign Lions and NZ castoffs. Anything less than a Messam and a Webb is a probably a cause for pessimism. If you expect Dragons to recruit 7 internationals every offseason with 4 under 25, another under 30 (in the front row) and 2 with Lions caps even if they are not first choice for Wales, then you are more optimistic than me. It is your team not mine and you are welcome to your opinion. If Glasgow recruited Welsh (Jarvis), Lawson (Hibbard), Steele (R Williams), Heathcote (J Williams), Reid or Jack Cosgrove (Bevington), R Gray (Moriarty) and Cowan (Nansen), I would be quite happy.

I have preference for union over the sugar daddy model unless someone is going to throw serious money at a club a la Wray and Altrad. Another idea I quite like is the Barcelona (other examples exist) association form of ownership. For Wales, you can choose your way forward.

Do the regions publish individual accounts? I know that the Scots don't and judging by the argument going on, the Irish kind of.

I believe at least some of the Regions do, the Ospreys have this Morning.

I can see a news item with the operating loss (£400k approx) from the previous season (2016/2017). That is £330k more than the previous season. They were Champions Cup this year so should be better off when they announce 2017/2018.
http://www.ospreysrugby.com/News/Article/52261

Do you have a link by any chance to a fuller version of accounts? Can't see anywhere on the first page of Google or immediately available on the website

I haven't sorry, I literally just saw their tweet about it.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 24 May 2018, 5:55 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:Don't Ulster rugby publish accounts?

They do as part of their annual report and I also believe the other 3 provinces can be obtained from the CRO

If you can point out how they can be obtained from the CRO, I'd be grateful.  

Just search for Leinster/Munster/Connacht Rugby here

I'm familiar with CRO website.   It doesn't provide you with their accounts though.

Really? Yet they are there, funny that

They’re not.  Although, you’ll find companies such as Leinster Rugby Company Ltd whose principal activity is the operation of sport arenas and stadiums.   Leinster Rugby Branch is not featured though.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 24 May 2018, 6:05 pm

Cape Town - SA Rugby is considering implementing a draft system which could aid PRO14 outfits the Cheetahs and Kings, president Mark Alexander has confirmed.

The Cheetahs made the playoffs in their first year in the tournament, but the Kings found the going tough and secured just one victory - out of 21 matches - in their debut season.

According to Alexander, SA Rugby is hoping to get finalisation on a new system that would aim to strengthen both South African squads in the competition from next season.

The new system, Alexander hopes, will be approved at SA Rugby' next franchise meeting.

"We are putting a capping on the contracting of players (at Super Rugby level), we’ve got a contracting model about to be approved. In that contracting model, a lot of players will become available to other teams like the Kings and the Cheetahs," Alexander told EWN.

"In any position, you’ll have three or four players for that position. The number four and number five player never get an opportunity to play, that kid can be drafted by another union and have game time.

"So, we can have the best players playing rugby every week and not some of the best players sitting in the storeroom."
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Sin é on Fri 08 Jun 2018, 3:10 pm

I'm surprised Phil hasn't hit on this yet!
https://munsterrugby.ie/2018/06/07/munster-rugby-agm-financial-update-2/

The Munster Branch Annual General Meeting took place at Bruff RFC tonight with club representatives from around the province in attendance.

In line with figures forecasted at last year’s AGM, the financial accounts for year ending 30th June 2017 showed a surplus of €900K which equated to a cash-flow surplus of €300K.

The current financial projection for year ending 30th June 2018 predicts a small loss per the financial accounts of €40K, which equates to a cash-flow loss of just under €0.9M for the season.

In presenting the financial update at tonight’s AGM, Munster Rugby Head of Finance and Operations, Philip Quinn, with Munster Rugby Finance Chairman, Tom Kinirons, discussed the key points.

The primary driver of the projected cash-flow loss compared to the €300K surplus in the prior year was a reduction of €1.6M in the IRFU grant income. However, Philip was keen to emphasise the excellent on-going support from the IRFU both in direct grant aid and flexibility and understanding around the Thomond Park loan.

In an extremely positive step, Munster Rugby made a loan repayment of €2.6M to the IRFU in April 2018 having renegotiated the schedule of loan repayments with the governing body. That saw the province bring the loan balance down to €6.9M and commit to future annual repayments of €100K plus a share of certain future potential revenue generating initiatives.

It was another very positive season with regards to gate income as over 250,000 tickets were sold throughout the campaign. Although there was a reduction in gate income in comparison to 2016/17, that was primarily down to the lack of a match against a touring side with the Maori All Blacks visiting the previous year, in November 2016.

Home knock-out games in both the Champions Cup and Guinness PRO14 enhanced sales with five sell-out attendances across Cork and Limerick during the season.

The income from 3,000 prime seats purchased through 10-Year Ticket sales was received in advance and used to fund the redevelopment of Thomond Park in 2007. While this was absolutely critical to fund the project, it means that no cash is received for these prime seats each season, thus this is one of the primary drivers of the cash-flow deficit.

As part of the province’s continued long-term investment to promote the game among younger supporters, Munster allocated 5,000 reduced priced Junior tickets to every Thomond Park game in 2017/18.

Munster’s revenue streams for the season brought in €16.9M as sponsorship income continues to grow. The impact of the additional income from the PRO14, through the expansion that has seen two South African teams join the competition, was a big positive.

Expenditure was reduced from €17.7M to €16.9M, driven primarily by a lowering of match costs due to the absence of the match against a touring side. There were also reductions in stadium costs and team costs for the season.

The province has invested in major upgrade works at Irish Independent Park. The significant development, to be completed next month, sees the installation of a modified 3G pitch surface by Tralee-based company PST Sport, replacing the current grass surface. Further exciting plans are currently under consideration for future developments in IIP.

Funded in part by Munster’s own commercial revenue streams, including the Munster Rugby Annual London Dinner, and a Government Sports Capital Grant, the new artificial pitch will allow for a significant increase in games played and hosted events, on a consistent basis, assisting the province’s efforts of growing the game at grassroots level.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 08 Jun 2018, 3:43 pm

Given the sale of the 10 year season tickets you'd think that they'd have gotten a bit more of a boost in profits, Munster need to come up with something in the next few years to drive up revenue.

Maybe Shane Logan can come in and help Whistle

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Sin é on Fri 08 Jun 2018, 3:50 pm

marty2086 wrote:Given the sale of the 10 year season tickets you'd think that they'd have gotten a bit more of a boost in profits, Munster need to come up with something in the next few years to drive up revenue.

Maybe Shane Logan can come in and help Whistle

I think the way the IRFU accounts work is the sale of those tickets is accounted for over the lifespan of the tickets (10 or 5 year).

So, what is Ulster & Leinster's income/expenditure for the year?
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 08 Jun 2018, 3:53 pm

Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Given the sale of the 10 year season tickets you'd think that they'd have gotten a bit more of a boost in profits, Munster need to come up with something in the next few years to drive up revenue.

Maybe Shane Logan can come in and help Whistle

I think the way the IRFU accounts work is the sale of those tickets is accounted for over the lifespan of the tickets (10 or 5 year).

So, what is Ulster & Leinster's income/expenditure for the year?

Ulsters will be released in Aug/Sept in the annual report...I hope

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Hazel Sapling on Fri 08 Jun 2018, 4:00 pm

Why is IRFU grant income down? Is that across all provinces or is that tied to something in particular?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Sin é on Fri 08 Jun 2018, 4:12 pm

I think the IRFU gave all provinces an extra wad last year which was a once off.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 08 Jun 2018, 4:13 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:Why is IRFU grant income down? Is that across all provinces or is that tied to something in particular?

Pretty sure the IRFU gave one off payments the year before to all the provinces to help them compete with the French and English

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Don Alfonso on Sun 17 Jun 2018, 8:20 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44493259

Wow. Eleven million of debt just written off. Gotta be nice

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by SecretFly on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 9:07 am

Don Alfonso wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44493259

Wow. Eleven million of debt just written off. Gotta be nice

The madness of Privately run teams. A team is a team.... no one man should ever 'own' a club in this modern age.... or be paying wages against all viability logic. But then, it's the little man made good story that lots of 'Club' fans seem to get the rose tinted specs and Kleenex out for. The Romance, innit.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 9:18 am

I bet Munster are wishing the IRFU would do the same for them, then again the union are trying to run things like a business rather than a play thing

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 11:27 am

The worrying thing is that they had £11 million of debt, or that they needed to run that debt up over the years. Who's going to pick that up now?! The WRU?
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Mon 18 Jun 2018, 12:42 pm

The WRU aren't shareholders so don't think they can put money into them without doing it with the others. The whole situation highlights the problems with wealthy benefactors, just look at what happened with the German national team earlier this year, Hans Peter Wild basically employed the staff and players and made them unavailable to Germany and now he's withdrawing funding from German rugby and dissolving the WILD Academy because Heidelberger are excluded from the ERCC

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 12:45 am

"That saw the province bring the loan balance down to €6.9M and commit to future annual repayments of €100K plus a share of certain future potential revenue generating initiatives."

That is some renegotiation of the original loan deal. Munster getting a lot of favoured treatment on that. I wonder what these certain future potential revenue generating initiatives are going to be?
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 10:18 am

Pot Hale wrote:"That saw the province bring the loan balance down to €6.9M and commit to future annual repayments of €100K plus a share of certain future potential revenue generating initiatives."

That is some renegotiation of the original loan deal.   Munster getting a lot of favoured treatment on that.  I wonder what these certain future potential revenue generating initiatives are going to be?

Bank of Ireland Park

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Pete330v2 on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 10:24 am

marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:"That saw the province bring the loan balance down to €6.9M and commit to future annual repayments of €100K plus a share of certain future potential revenue generating initiatives."

That is some renegotiation of the original loan deal.   Munster getting a lot of favoured treatment on that.  I wonder what these certain future potential revenue generating initiatives are going to be?

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by Sin é on Tue 19 Jun 2018, 11:41 am

Pot Hale wrote:"That saw the province bring the loan balance down to €6.9M and commit to future annual repayments of €100K plus a share of certain future potential revenue generating initiatives."

That is some renegotiation of the original loan deal.   Munster getting a lot of favoured treatment on that.  I wonder what these certain future potential revenue generating initiatives are going to be?

You do realise that the IRFU own 50% of the stadium and have put no money into Thomond Park. Munster are paying back a loan with interest with now has a much more realistic repayment schedule which will now look like 15m loan over 20 years which is a much more realistic timescale. €6.9M left to pay back over 10 years is what is left.

Hopefully, the additional initiatives will be more touring sides playing Munster in Thomond Park in the Autumn Series. I'd imagine SA would be up for that one for starters.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Fri 29 Jun 2018, 9:53 am

The Oracle wrote:The worrying thing is that they had £11 million of debt, or that they needed to run that debt up over the years.  Who's going to pick that up now?!  The WRU?  

More like £15m, built up over 22 years.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Fri 29 Jun 2018, 9:59 am

marty2086 wrote:The WRU aren't shareholders so don't think they can put money into them without doing it with the others. The whole situation highlights the problems with wealthy benefactors, just look at what happened with the German national team earlier this year, Hans Peter Wild basically employed the staff and players and made them unavailable to Germany and now he's withdrawing funding from German rugby and dissolving the WILD Academy because Heidelberger are excluded from the ERCC

Tremendous whatabouttery.

Wild is doing that because of the hypocrisy and duplicity of the Irish and Scottish Union Blazers.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Fri 29 Jun 2018, 10:00 am

Pot Hale wrote:"That saw the province bring the loan balance down to €6.9M and commit to future annual repayments of €100K plus a share of certain future potential revenue generating initiatives."

That is some renegotiation of the original loan deal.   Munster getting a lot of favoured treatment on that.  I wonder what these certain future potential revenue generating initiatives are going to be?

Why would a parent bankrupt its child?
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 29 Jun 2018, 10:30 am

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:The WRU aren't shareholders so don't think they can put money into them without doing it with the others. The whole situation highlights the problems with wealthy benefactors, just look at what happened with the German national team earlier this year, Hans Peter Wild basically employed the staff and players and made them unavailable to Germany and now he's withdrawing funding from German rugby and dissolving the WILD Academy because Heidelberger are excluded from the ERCC

Tremendous whatabouttery.

Wild is doing that because of the hypocrisy and duplicity of the Irish and Scottish Union Blazers.

And yet again you bring it back to the Irish, pathetic really

Or maybe shows up what you've been spouting fails to meet the reality

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Fri 29 Jun 2018, 10:32 am

marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:The WRU aren't shareholders so don't think they can put money into them without doing it with the others. The whole situation highlights the problems with wealthy benefactors, just look at what happened with the German national team earlier this year, Hans Peter Wild basically employed the staff and players and made them unavailable to Germany and now he's withdrawing funding from German rugby and dissolving the WILD Academy because Heidelberger are excluded from the ERCC

Tremendous whatabouttery.

Wild is doing that because of the hypocrisy and duplicity of the Irish and Scottish Union Blazers.

And yet again you bring it back to the Irish, pathetic really

Or maybe shows up what you've been spouting fails to meet the reality

Go on then, justify your 'maybe'. It seems that its ok for Nucifora to control four teams, but Wild can't own two.

Any time you want to justify that to me, you knock yourself bandy.

And, in doing so, maybe you can point us to where the branch accounts can be found on that website you claim they are on, whilst you know that you are lying when you do so.

Remember, Martyn, who owns the player contracts in Ireland.....
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by marty2086 on Fri 29 Jun 2018, 10:36 am

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:The WRU aren't shareholders so don't think they can put money into them without doing it with the others. The whole situation highlights the problems with wealthy benefactors, just look at what happened with the German national team earlier this year, Hans Peter Wild basically employed the staff and players and made them unavailable to Germany and now he's withdrawing funding from German rugby and dissolving the WILD Academy because Heidelberger are excluded from the ERCC

Tremendous whatabouttery.

Wild is doing that because of the hypocrisy and duplicity of the Irish and Scottish Union Blazers.

And yet again you bring it back to the Irish, pathetic really

Or maybe shows up what you've been spouting fails to meet the reality

Go on then, justify your 'maybe'. It seems that its ok for Nucifora to control four teams, but Wild can't own two.

Any time you want to justify that to me, you knock yourself bandy.

And, in doing so, maybe you can point us to where the branch accounts can be found on that website you claim they are on, whilst you know that you are lying when you do so.

Remember, Martyn, who owns the player contracts in Ireland.....

I hope the mods will be taking a look at Phil and his name calling

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by PhilBB on Fri 29 Jun 2018, 10:44 am

marty2086 wrote:

I hope the mods will be taking a look at Phil and his name calling

What name calling? You've claimed in the past that branch accounts can be found on that website. You've been told in the past that they cannot. Yet, you continue to claim something you know is untrue.

Now, maybe you could address the rest of the post instead of screaming for Teacher because you've been found out. Again.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by SecretFly on Mon 02 Jul 2018, 8:16 am

Hmmmmmmm .............

So I take it the Glorious Circus that is the ProIrish10PLUSTheWelshRebellion is still a dud, a corrupt cabal, a sneer and snide slurry of seedy, scandalous and sulphurous smelling SHYTE?................................ Shocked

I guess Leinster are just going to have to go and win the bloody WC now to prove the League is the bestest both in Europe and DE WORLD!!!!  That will of course mean though that Leinster will be too busy to actually play any games in their Pro14 season and will instead use the brown envelope channel to ensure they get to the final.

Anyway, apologies to the appropriate folks that a Pro14 side actually won the Pro14 this year.  I think some contributors here must have been hoping that Saracens or Toulon might steal it in the end.  There's always next year though.  But more money in the envelope is required before that kinda result can transpire.  Please pass on the info to interested teams.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by thebandwagonsociety on Tue 03 Jul 2018, 9:24 am

Pot Hale wrote:"That saw the province bring the loan balance down to €6.9M and commit to future annual repayments of €100K plus a share of certain future potential revenue generating initiatives."

That is some renegotiation of the original loan deal.   Munster getting a lot of favoured treatment on that.  I wonder what these certain future potential revenue generating initiatives are going to be?

You'd have to assume that the initiatives would include;
- portion of proceeds from future batches of 10 year ticket sales
- portion of money from stadium naming rights
- portion of money from concerts
- portion of money from exhibition games or touring nation matches

There is a fascination in getting the loan down to nil. It's long term funding that put together quite a class piece of infrastructure that has a long useful life remaining.

On the naming rights, any chance SuperValu's parent company could sponsor the Stadium, I think it would be novel to have Munster playing important games in Musgrave Park again.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Wed 04 Jul 2018, 1:23 pm

Interview with Martin Anayi on Wales Online. It seems the pro14 conferences are staying the same - which is not what we were promised at the launch this time last year.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 04 Jul 2018, 5:58 pm

The Pro14 will be dead in Wales by the end of the coming season. The lack of exposure will kill it off.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 8:38 am

LordDowlais wrote:The Pro14 will be dead in Wales by the end of the coming season. The lack of exposure will kill it off.


With respect, I think this is absolute horsesh!te!
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 11:13 am

The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The Pro14 will be dead in Wales by the end of the coming season. The lack of exposure will kill it off.


With respect, I think this is absolute horsesh!te!

You honestly think that the hundreds of thousands of people who watched it on the BBC will do any of the following:-

1. By the new channel
2. Go to the game instead
3. Find a pub/club which might be showing it

If you think that all the people will do that, with respect, I think you are deluded.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 11:21 am

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The Pro14 will be dead in Wales by the end of the coming season. The lack of exposure will kill it off.


With respect, I think this is absolute horsesh!te!

You honestly think that the hundreds of thousands of people who watched it on the BBC will do any of the following:-

1. By the new channel
2. Go to the game instead
3. Find a pub/club which might be showing it

If you think that all the people will do that, with respect, I think you are deluded.

I don't think it will die out within 1 season. But of all the Live subscription sports broadcasters, Premier sports has to be the most difficult to access / market etc. How many pubs will now be showing pro domestic rugby in Wales? Not many.

Pay tv is good for rugby if it's done right - like the BT Sports deal in England. Time will tell if this is a good move. The history of Wales rugby supporters and their apathy to anything but test rugby means this is a big gamble.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 11:27 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The Pro14 will be dead in Wales by the end of the coming season. The lack of exposure will kill it off.


With respect, I think this is absolute horsesh!te!

You honestly think that the hundreds of thousands of people who watched it on the BBC will do any of the following:-

1. By the new channel
2. Go to the game instead
3. Find a pub/club which might be showing it

If you think that all the people will do that, with respect, I think you are deluded.

I don't think it will die out within 1 season. But of all the Live subscription sports broadcasters, Premier sports has to be the most difficult to access / market etc. How many pubs will now be showing pro domestic rugby in Wales? Not many.

Pay tv is good for rugby if it's done right - like the BT Sports deal in England. Time will tell if this is a good move. The history of Wales rugby supporters and their apathy to anything but test rugby means this is a big gamble.

People will not pay. Not here in Wales, where most of the people are either on benefits or the dole. Any spare money they have goes on SKY sports for the premier league football.

At least when it was on the BBC they had access to it. Now most people in Wales will not be watching the Pro14. Unless they catch the odd game on S4C, if they are still airing games.

Trust me, giving the rights to this Irish broadcaster is a home goal. This is classic short term gain, and long term pain.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 11:31 am

LordDowlais wrote:

People will not pay. Not here in Wales, where most of the people are either on benefits or the dole. Any spare money they have goes on SKY sports for the premier league football.

At least when it was on the BBC they had access to it. Now most people in Wales will not be watching the Pro14. Unless they catch the odd game on S4C, if they are still airing games.

Trust me, giving the rights to this Irish broadcaster is a home goal. This is classic short term gain, and long term pain.

I agree. People won't pay. But that doesn't mean Pro rugby will be dead within 10 months.

Premier Sport surely must have looked at the market and realised that very few people in Wales will sign up for something they've had for free for the last 15 years or so. I certainly hope so anyway, or they'll have to rip up the tv deal sooner rather than later.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 11:38 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:I agree. People won't pay. But that doesn't mean Pro rugby will be dead within 10 months.

Pro rugby will not, but the interest will, it will be a slow, slow decline.

RugbyFan100 wrote:Premier Sport surely must have looked at the market and realised that very few people in Wales will sign up for something they've had for free for the last 15 years or so. I certainly hope so anyway, or they'll have to rip up the tv deal sooner rather than later.

Do you honestly think they have considered anything ? Because I don't. They just looked at the viewing figures and though, ooohh we'll have some of that. Then the Pro14 saw the ££££'s being fluttered in front of their eyes and took the deal.

It's a good deal for the teams shortly. But, when Premier Sports come to realise, that they will not get the viewing figures the BBC got, it will all end in tears.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 11:41 am

LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:I agree. People won't pay. But that doesn't mean Pro rugby will be dead within 10 months.

Pro rugby will not, but the interest will, it will be a slow, slow decline.

RugbyFan100 wrote:Premier Sport surely must have looked at the market and realised that very few people in Wales will sign up for something they've had for free for the last 15 years or so. I certainly hope so anyway, or they'll have to rip up the tv deal sooner rather than later.

Do you honestly think they have considered anything ? Because I don't. They just looked at the viewing figures and though, ooohh we'll have some of that. Then the Pro14 saw the ££££'s being fluttered in front of their eyes and took the deal.

It's a good deal for the teams shortly. But, when Premier Sports come to realise, that they will not get the viewing figures the BBC got, it will all end in tears.

I think you're possibly correct - but even if you are - surely that's Premier sports' problem, not the teams? The pro14 will have the cash won't they?

Although worryingly, I saw someone mention yesterday that the old Setanta (which is basically what Prem sports is now) still owe Scottish football hundreds of thousands of pounds because they went bust and couldn't pay up.

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 12:50 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The Pro14 will be dead in Wales by the end of the coming season. The lack of exposure will kill it off.


With respect, I think this is absolute horsesh!te!

You honestly think that the hundreds of thousands of people who watched it on the BBC will do any of the following:-

1. By the new channel
2. Go to the game instead
3. Find a pub/club which might be showing it

If you think that all the people will do that, with respect, I think you are deluded.

You said, and I quote: 'The Pro14 will be dead in Wales by the end of the coming season. The lack of expose will kill it off.' What is this magical thing that you think BBC2 Wales and S4C do currently that keeps it alive, exposes the league, etc?! We currently get 2 free to air games per week - usually Friday on BBC2 Wales and Sat/Sun on S4C. Under the new deal we will get 1 free to air game per week (on S4c I expect). So we're losing 1 game per week. 1 game! In what way will this cause the whole of the league to die in Wales? What exposure do you think it gets now? Just 2 games! And how much marketing of the league do you think BBC2 Wales and the Pro14 do? Really now, how much? I do not see loads of TV adds for the league from those broadcasters. I do not see them putting up big billboard adds promoting the league. So what exposure are we really losing, apart from 1 game per week?

I think you're right to be concerned, but I think you're being a bit sensationalist and perhaps a bit misty eyed about what it is the current broadcasters do to expose and promote the league.
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by BamBam on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 12:52 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The Pro14 will be dead in Wales by the end of the coming season. The lack of exposure will kill it off.


With respect, I think this is absolute horsesh!te!

You honestly think that the hundreds of thousands of people who watched it on the BBC will do any of the following:-

1. By the new channel
2. Go to the game instead
3. Find a pub/club which might be showing it

If you think that all the people will do that, with respect, I think you are deluded.

I don't think it will die out within 1 season. But of all the Live subscription sports broadcasters, Premier sports has to be the most difficult to access / market etc. How many pubs will now be showing pro domestic rugby in Wales? Not many.

Pay tv is good for rugby if it's done right - like the BT Sports deal in England. Time will tell if this is a good move. The history of Wales rugby supporters and their apathy to anything but test rugby means this is a big gamble.

People will not pay. Not here in Wales, where most of the people are either on benefits or the dole. Any spare money they have goes on SKY sports for the premier league football.

At least when it was on the BBC they had access to it. Now most people in Wales will not be watching the Pro14. Unless they catch the odd game on S4C, if they are still airing games.

Trust me, giving the rights to this Irish broadcaster is a home goal. This is classic short term gain, and long term pain.

Yep, giving priority to the dossers of the world who offer no financial contribution is exactly what any successful business wants

No wonder your carpet empire is so vast

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by LordDowlais on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 1:17 pm

Rolling Eyes

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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

Post by The Oracle on Thu 05 Jul 2018, 1:35 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:The Pro14 will be dead in Wales by the end of the coming season. The lack of exposure will kill it off.


With respect, I think this is absolute horsesh!te!

You honestly think that the hundreds of thousands of people who watched it on the BBC will do any of the following:-

1. By the new channel
2. Go to the game instead
3. Find a pub/club which might be showing it

If you think that all the people will do that, with respect, I think you are deluded.

I don't think it will die out within 1 season. But of all the Live subscription sports broadcasters, Premier sports has to be the most difficult to access / market etc. How many pubs will now be showing pro domestic rugby in Wales? Not many.

Pay tv is good for rugby if it's done right - like the BT Sports deal in England. Time will tell if this is a good move. The history of Wales rugby supporters and their apathy to anything but test rugby means this is a big gamble.

People will not pay. Not here in Wales, where most of the people are either on benefits or the dole. Any spare money they have goes on SKY sports for the premier league football.

At least when it was on the BBC they had access to it. Now most people in Wales will not be watching the Pro14. Unless they catch the odd game on S4C, if they are still airing games.

Trust me, giving the rights to this Irish broadcaster is a home goal. This is classic short term gain, and long term pain.


And the prize for the most sweeping statements in a post goes to......... LD! Congratulations. have a beer Ale
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Re: The Future for the PRO14 - Part 5 - How are the Unions doing?

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