6 NATIONS 2018 - England v Wales build up/Match/Autopsy Thread - 12-6

[TightHEAD]

First topic message reminder :

England v Wales (The Big One) ITV 16:45pm


So much rests on this game. Wales look strong, England did enough in Rome to look comfortable.

Really hard to see how this wil play out.

Discuss.

Ref - Jérôme Garcès (France)

Head to head - Played - 130 Eng 61 - Wales 57 - Drawn 12




England Team

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins 65 caps) 14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby 29 caps) 13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby 36 caps) 12 Owen Farrell (Saracens 54 caps) 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 30 caps)
10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 41 caps) 9 Danny Care (Harlequins 77 caps)

1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens 45 caps) 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 90 caps) 3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 78 caps)
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 48 caps) 5 Maro Itoje (Saracens 15 caps) 6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 62 caps) 7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 60 caps) 8 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 4 caps)

Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens 21 caps) 17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs 1 cap) 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs 6 caps) 19 George Kruis (Saracens 22 caps)  20 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby 4 caps) 21 Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens 27 caps) 22 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors 9 caps) 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs 24 caps)




Wales team
Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets); Josh Adams (Worcester), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Hadleigh Parkes (Scarlets), Steff Evans (Scarlets); Rhys Patchell (Scarlets), Gareth Davies (Scarlets); Rob Evans (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Cory Hill (Dragons), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys capt), Aaron Shingler (Scarlets), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester).

Replacements: Elliot Dee (Dragons), Wyn Jones (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Bradley Davies (Ospreys), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Aled Davies (Scarlets), Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), George North (Northampton).


NO TRY - https://mobile.twitter.com/mattyjwills/status/962615635321737217/video/1

[ChequeredJersey]

England were poor against a Welsh 3rd/4th XV who outplayed them completely in the 2nd half and only on because TMO stands for Totally Myopic Official

Well, work on getting your 1st 15 on the pitch then.

Well, they're injured

L Williams
Half
JD2
Biggar
Faletau
Ball
Warburton
Webb

with those boys and honest TMO we'd have won at a canter

I also think its a shame that England have become pretty unsportsmanlike under Eddie the Eagle, but I guess better Brown be smiling than having his usual tantrum  

Ah yes, amazingly England were missing zero players!

[Scottrf]

On review I think the TMO was correct.

"If there is doubt about which team first grounded the ball in the in-goal, play is re-started by a 5-metre scrum, in line with the place where the ball was grounded."

It was a simultaneous grounding, so looks like the correct decision.

[Guest]

Just watched the highlights and I still have no idea wtf Mikey is talking about with May's first try, the grounding is unquestionable.

[Gwlad]

On review I think the TMO was correct.

"If there is doubt about which team first grounded the ball in the in-goal, play is re-started by a 5-metre scrum, in line with the place where the ball was grounded."

It was a simultaneous grounding, so looks like the correct decision.

try watching with your eyes open

[mckay1402]

It's good to know this place hasn't changed. Still the same old idiots having the same old arguments.

Wales didn't do enough to win regardless of the try being allowed or not. However I think Wales are looking in a decent place for the world cup. Developing some serious depth of talent. Could be challengers

[Guest]

On review I think the TMO was correct.

"If there is doubt about which team first grounded the ball in the in-goal, play is re-started by a 5-metre scrum, in line with the place where the ball was grounded."

It was a simultaneous grounding, so looks like the correct decision.

try watching with your eyes open

What a surprise

A welsh moral victory proponent thinks an official cost Wales a game. Poor loser mentality. Gatland had a good old sook about it to, lol.

[Sgt_Pooly]

There's always a few that claim the moral victory each year...I think it's 3 now?

A win is a win end of the day. Wales played some good stuff and got on top at the breakdown without really looking like scoring a try (2 incidents aside).

It's good that England can not play great and still get the win, but this is perhaps becoming a bit common over the last year....we need more performances like Scotland at home last year where things click.

I'd be pretty happy as a Welsh fan. You pushed the 2nd best team in the world for most of the game, your set piece is solid and you're discovering some real strength in depth. I'd say you're clearly the 3rd best side in the NH at the minute, you just need to show it against the SH side more.

[RiscaGame]

I might be wrong, but is the win today not , not 3 out of 3 for England rugby against Wales this week end?

 The under 20,s Woman's 6ns and the mans 6ns....Seem like England are just better than Wales.

The fact you don’t know says a lot about you.

Congratulations to the “under 20,s”, and the woman’s and the mans and all that, but surely there should be more ambition than just being better than Wales?

[mid_gen]

The WUMs are back from detention I see.

Oh well it was nice to have a few days where the adults could talk. Can they hurry up and get themselves banned again please...

[maestegmafia]

There's always a few that claim the moral victory each year...I think it's 3 now?

A win is a win end of the day. Wales played some good stuff and got on top at the breakdown without really looking like scoring a try (2 incidents aside).

It's good that England can not play great and still get the win, but this is perhaps becoming a bit common over the last year....we need more performances like Scotland at home last year where things click.

I'd be pretty happy as a Welsh fan. You pushed the 2nd best team in the world for most of the game, your set piece is solid and you're discovering some real strength in depth. I'd say you're clearly the 3rd best side in the NH at the minute, you just need to show it against the SH side more.

I agree on the improvement to the greater Squad, when you consider Wales missing several usual starters, a number of those are lions test team players too. And beyond that there are a number of very good players not even making the squad.

Not quite at the depth level of Ireland but closer than before.

[nathan]

Meas, do you think they'll bring back in the experienced players back in or stick with the younger guys?

[mid_gen]

It's good to know this place hasn't changed.  Still the same old idiots having the same old arguments.

Wales didn't do enough to win regardless of the try being allowed or not.  However I think Wales are looking in a decent place for the world cup. Developing some serious depth of talent. Could be challengers

Wales are still the same old Gatland Wales. Physically fit and strong, a fast aggressive defence, an extra 10% they pull out of the bag for England, but lacking playmakers to create tries. A decent side that is good enough to be competitive in the NH though.

Absolutely nothing has changed to suggest they are going to challenge the SH teams on today's performance.

[Recwatcher16]

The breakdown is a mess with players sealing off the ball with impunity or coming round the side and lifting the defender over the ball off their feet.
The english scrum were not as successful as I thought they might be, as the welsh front three held up well. Lineouts were even but given how crooked most of the throws were it was hardly surprising.
If Underhill can avoid injuries he is going to be a star.
Anscombe non try was 50-50 for me as Watson's left hand appears to be on the ball and the TMO made a call - unusually for a kiwi, in Englands favour - I must be getting old......

[Collapse2005]

Wales were robbed it was clearly a try. Terrible decision from the TMO.

[Collapse2005]

On review I think the TMO was correct.

"If there is doubt about which team first grounded the ball in the in-goal, play is re-started by a 5-metre scrum, in line with the place where the ball was grounded."

It was a simultaneous grounding, so looks like the correct decision.

try watching with your eyes open

What a surprise

A welsh moral victory proponent thinks an official cost Wales a game. Poor loser mentality. Gatland had a good old sook about it to, lol.

Poor decision from the TMO

[The Great Aukster]

When the cyclopic Dayglo and Clive both acknowledge the TMO blunder, the mistake was clear. Whether it would have affected the result will never be known, but it unquestionably affected the game.

[Collapse2005]

Farrells kick for Mays try was sublime

[The Great Aukster]

Which one?

[No 7&1/2]

The only one which was kicked I'm guessing.
I'd concur that based on the grounding the tmo should have awarded the try. It's another tight call for an offside from the kick which wasn't looked at.Evans was slightly ahead I think. Tight calls.

[Guest]

Having a sook about an incident that happened in the 23rd minute is taking sooka-bubba-ry to a whole new level. It’s extreme inability to accept a result.

[Cumbrian]

Yeah, might have had a few too many last night.

Apologies if I offended anyone with my nonsensical ramblings!

[eirebilly]

Morning all.

I see online this morning that Brown is getting a lot of stick for laughing at the at the Welsh player after Underhill's superb tackle denied Wales a try.

Now, is what Brown did any worse than what AWJ did after the scuffle (little cheeky taps to Itoje's cheek)?
For me there is no difference, its just players winding each other up and it happens in every game.

[majesticimperialman]

I do not know if it was a try or not.

But like Eddie Jones said that is what the TMO is for. He declared it was a ( NO TRY ) so that is the end of it.

[Cumbrian]

Morning all.

I see online this morning that Brown is getting a lot of stick for laughing at the at the Welsh player after Underhill's superb tackle denied Wales a try.

Now, is what Brown did any worse than what AWJ did after the scuffle (little cheeky taps to Itoje's cheek)?
For me there is no difference, its just players winding each other up and it happens in every game.

I didn’t particularly like Brown being on the wind up, but as you say it went both ways. I must admit I don’t like the head rubbing and gamesmanship that has crept into the game. Rugby is too physical for these sorts of things, it only takes a player to lose self control and somebody could get really hurt.

[Guest]

Morning all. I’ve got a sore head and a hoarse voice!

Haven’t had chance to trawl through the posts yet. Just wanted to say congrats to England. Well played.

I don’t think wales played that well. Obviously that is in part due to England not allowing wales to play well. But also I just don’t think Wales got into their stride. Lots of errors in lots of areas of their game. England didn’t have a great game either I thought.

I’m happy with a point though to be honest. Thought at one point it would run away from us so to be in with a (very slim) shout towards the end was good.

Good luck for the rest of the tournament England.

[lostinwales]

Morning all. I’ve got a sore head and a hoarse voice!

Haven’t had chance to trawl through the posts yet. Just wanted to say congrats to England. Well played.  

I don’t think wales played that well. Obviously that is in part due to England not allowing wales to play well. But also I just don’t think Wales got into their stride. Lots of errors in lots of areas of their game. England didn’t have a great game either I thought.

I’m happy with a point though to be honest. Thought at one point it would run away from us so to be in with a (very slim) shout towards the end was good.

Good luck for the rest of the tournament England.

Likewise. Go cause Ireland some problems

[doctor_grey]

Hello boys.

I just went back to look at the Wales TMO no try, and that looks even closer today compared to when I watched last night.  That is really as close as it gets.  First look at the replay and I thought possibly Anscombe had his hand in there a fraction before Watson.  Second look and I think the other way.  Glad it wasn't me making the decision.  

What do we all think the call would have been if this was in the era with no TMO?

[eirebilly]

In an era of no TMO, I think it would not have been a try. Not because of the grounding but I feel they would have ruled it out (incorrectly) for a knock on in the lead up.

[Scottrf]

Probably right. A correct decision with no TMO would still be no try though because there's doubt about the grounding.

[lostinwales]

Probably right. A correct decision with no TMO would still be no try though because there's doubt about the grounding.

There is doubt.

It does tend to hide the question of how Wales failed to score with a 4 on 1 overlap, and as Taylorman points out above there were other Welsh opportunities which were messed up.

[Guest]

Probably right. A correct decision with no TMO would still be no try though because there's doubt about the grounding.

There is doubt.

It does tend to hide the question of how Wales failed to score with a 4 on 1 overlap, and as Taylorman points out above there were other Welsh opportunities which were messed up.

Definitely. Wales played poorly for the majority of the match I thought. To lose 12-6 playing so poorly was, in some small way, a decent outcome. England should really have had scored more than 12 points with all of their possession and territory too. Poor from both sides I feel.

[TrailApe]

In an era of no TMO, I think it would not have been a try. Not because of the grounding but I feel they would have ruled it out (incorrectly) for a knock on in the lead up.

It looks like it actually was a knock on..

https://twitter.com/mattyjwills/status/962614149154041856

[Guest]

In an era of no TMO, I think it would not have been a try. Not because of the grounding but I feel they would have ruled it out (incorrectly) for a knock on in the lead up.

It looks like it actually was a knock on..

https://twitter.com/mattyjwills/status/962614149154041856

Disagree. The way the ball changes direction so much suggests it hit something much harder than finger tips. Had to be the bounce of the knee. We would have seen the fingers being deflected, or something. They didn’t seem to move at all as they would if they’d hit the ball and caused it to change direction as much as it did.

[TrailApe]

They didn’t seem to move at all

Did you watch the full sequence - the fingers do move. Around the 12 mark on the film.

[Guest]

They didn’t seem to move at all

Did you watch the full sequence - the fingers do move. Around the 12 mark on the film.

Not enough to have had that effect on the ball, for me. For the ball to change direction so much it would have needed a decent thump.

I’m not complaining about the disallowed try, by the way. It was 50/50. I’ve seen them given. I’ve seen them disallowed too! Plenty of pundits and media outlets saying it could/should have been given. But whatever really. I think the final score was a fair reflection of the game. Wales had chances to score a try at the end so had chances to win it (Scott Williams and his rubbish slide and Steff Evans nearly getting on the end of a kick through) but we weren’t clinical enough. That’s what lost it.

[No name Bertie]

In an era of no TMO, I think it would not have been a try. Not because of the grounding but I feel they would have ruled it out (incorrectly) for a knock on in the lead up.

It looks like it actually was a knock on..

https://twitter.com/mattyjwills/status/962614149154041856

a) The ball makes contact with the knee first, while in contact with the knee the ball pivots and rebounds, as it pivots the forward end of the ball makes contact with the third finger (big deflection) and the fourth - little - finger (smaller deflection). If that means it is a knock-on (?), then it is a knock on

b) [edited] The second incident, Anscombe hand makes contact with the ball first and pushes it forward and downward in a slapping motion, and as he is pushing it forward and downward the ball gets away from his hand.  It is unclear whether Anscombe actually grounds the ball.  Watson gets his hands on the ball as the ball is being pushed forward and downward by Anscombe's hand and it seems that as the ball grounds it is Watson that has his hands on the ball and it is pressure from his hand that grounds it securely.  So the way I see it Anscombe touches and pushes the ball forward and downward first, while Watson’s hand over the top applies the downward pressure to securely ground it.  This is a marginal decision.  This is my judgement seeing the slo-mo in two angles.

Latest review: It seems that Anscombe gets to the ball first and slaps it forward and downwards the ball makes contact with the ground and is about to rebound away, but Watson's hand over the top prevents the ball rebounding away and securely grounds it. If that means a try to wales (?) then it is a try to Wales. It is a marginal call - and I would have needed to have experience in viewing many many incidents in order to get to this "best judgement" much more quickly.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43020285

[englandglory4ever]

When it comes down to it Wales just weren't good enough. They hung on for 60 mins and put in a couple of kicks in the hope of scoring. They need to do much more to win against the big sides in world rugby.

[Guest]

When it comes down to it Wales just weren't good enough. They hung on for 60 mins and put in a couple of kicks in the hope of scoring. They need to do much more to win against the big sides in world rugby.

Not sure if this is a bit of a troll comment, but I’ll bite! I disagree that Wales hung on. I’d say it was the opposite. We were hanging on for the first 15 mins. But by the end we were in the ascendency and just ran out of time. We got better as the game went on while England fell off in terms of performance as the game went on. England seemed to be doing the hanging on more so than wales (in the end). Fully deserved their win though.

[SecretFly]

When it comes down to it Wales just weren't good enough. They hung on for 60 mins and put in a couple of kicks in the hope of scoring. They need to do much more to win against the big sides in world rugby.

...and so do England...............

[SecretFly]

As Wales might say; "If only the game went on for a hundred and one minutes, we might have won it".

But alas, that's only fantasy. Games of course never last anything close to that length.

[Duty281]

Anscombe clearly didn’t ground the ball. He slapped it down and knocked on in the process. Easy decision for the TMO.

Don’t understand any ‘controversy’ over it.

[Collapse2005]

Having a sook about an incident that happened in the 23rd minute is taking sooka-bubba-ry to a whole new level. It’s extreme inability to accept a result.

You'd swear Kiwi's never whinge about anything. Massive whinging on Lions tour about a non event involving Sob's forearm. Love the hypocracy. TMO got it wrong.

[LondonTiger]

As Wales might say; "If only the game went on for a hundred and one minutes, we might have won it".

But alas, that's only fantasy.  Games of course never last anything close to that length.

Except for Wales in Paris last year.

[TightHEAD]

I'm backing Wales to beat Ireland.

Just remember to get downward pressure on balls on or over the whitewash and not to slap it forward.

[TightHEAD]

Clearly the ball is knocked on by Steff Evans finger and knee anyway

TMO was bang on.

He should be congratulated on getting it right.

Why is he getting all the negative press?

[Guest]

As Wales might say; "If only the game went on for a hundred and one minutes, we might have won it".

But alas, that's only fantasy.  Games of course never last anything close to that length.

Except for Wales in Paris last year.

Pretty sure that's what Fly was alluding to!

[eirebilly]

Yesterday during the game after the TMO decision...

That was a try wales

Today...

Clearly the ball is knocked on by Steff Evans finger and knee anyway

TMO was bang on.

He should be congratulated on getting it right.

Why is he getting all the negative press?

You were fairly convinced this was a try after the TMO decision yesterday, even referring to the decision to not award the try as a joke.

[Guest]

We all know that TightHEAD is just a troll who is allowed to troll by the Scottish mods! He lives a charmed life in here, given more allowances than others! What dirt have you got on the mods, TightHEAD???!

[TightHEAD]

I haven't been drinking today.

Re-watch it in super slow mo zoomed in, it touches his finger then knee.

No try.

[TightHEAD]

Brian Moore has it on his Twitter feed.

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