PGA Tour: AT&T National Pro-Am: Notes from the Ballwasher

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PGA Tour: AT&T National Pro-Am: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by kwinigolfer on Thu 08 Feb 2018, 6:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

1).Interesting rather than rivetting climax to last week's Waste Management action. Hasn't the 18th hole at TPC Scottsdale become rather an anticlimax after the crescendo of all the hullabaloo from #15, 16, 17? Instead of a hole worthy of crowning the build up from the back nine, we have a ho-hum medium length Par-4 which favours a relatively low risk tee-shot such that the Gary Woodlands of the Tour can launch their drive over most of the trouble and have some kind of lofted wedge to the green. Regardless of how one feels about the extra length that modern equipment affords, surely the trouble off the tee should penalise equally drivers of all distances, but increasingly that's no longer the case.

2).Not that Woodland will be too fussed, as he moves to 7th place in the early season Ryder Cup standings. Top 12 now:
Top 8 automatic qualifying places: DJ, Koepka, Thomas, Spieth, Kuchar, Harman, Woodland, Fowler.
Next 4: Reed, Kizzire, Reavie, Steele.
Early days though.

3).Back to California this week and the AT&T National Pro-Am. By the end of play on Sunday most of the Tour's members will be into their season, even the late starters and those who haven't teed it up yet will likely be at Riviera next week.
The Waialae, Torrey Pines, TPC Scottsdale, Pebble Beach and Riviera tournaments are all usually kind to course specialists. This week we have multiple winners Phil, DJ and Snedeker; typically this lot, and a few others, play well also at Riviera and Torrey Pines. Grasses are fairly similar and coastal California seems to suit some players' seasonal rhythm of form. California boys Pat Perez and, in their primes, Hunter Mahan & Nick Watney are others who fit the bill, Kevin Sutherland & Oberholser in years gone by. And O'Meara their standard bearer from a generation ago. Perhaps Cantlay or one of the other locals can carry on this trend?

4).There's a strong International contingent here, including Casey & Donald, McDowell (extraordinary that he hasn't played here more often) & Rory, Shane & Seamus, Paul Dunners & Padraig. Rafa C-B is playing and even Adam Scott. But internationals haven't historically fared well, Vijay the only winner since Brett Ogle 25 years ago.

5).I'm taking Phil as my one-and-done this week, probably for sentimental reasons as much as anything - a fabulous record around Pebble Beach and his duel with Tiger a few years ago was one of the most compelling final rounds of recent years.
Riviera next week and we'll try to follow up the Cal horses-for-courses theme that was planned for this week until winter intervened.

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Re: PGA Tour: AT&T National Pro-Am: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by beninho on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 10:06 am

But is it one of the best links courses with the capability of holding a major competition?

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Re: PGA Tour: AT&T National Pro-Am: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by JAS on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 10:14 am

super_realist wrote:
beninho wrote:
super_realist wrote:
robopz wrote:I love St Andrews. Nothing wrong with golf's history being celebrated there once every 5th year. I'm not one that believes you have to bust their nuts to have a championship. If they shoot 75-80 in a gale or scare 60 on a mild day, no matter to me. All good IMO.

History doesn't give you drama or a decent event  though does it? Every 5th year is overkill. It's an admission you can't be bothered to produce a good tournament and are happy with mediocrity.
It's also one of the least scenic and least photogenic courses you'll ever see. In regards to holding a major, pretty much the only thing it has going for it is there is plenty space for the grandstands.

Only a slight overreaction.....

Oh look, people have different opinions, shock!

The Open has been held in St Andrews in 95, 2000, 2005, 2010 and 2015 in recent years. How many of them were any good? How many times did the course produce any drama? Compare that to Carnoustie or Troon.

Having a play off in 2015 doesn't and didn't make it especially interesting. and only occurred in the first place because the weather caused problems during the event It would have been more interesting if there was the possibility of drama coming down 16, 17 and 18, but these holes are a cakewalk. You can' have play offs on the worlds most boring courses, doesn't mean it's a good tournament. We have play offs at "paint by numbers" courses in America all the time, hardly piques my interest. Do we remember the 2017 Masters because of the playoff or because of the extraordinary golf from Garcia especially on the back 9, especially when he lost the lead? Did the lack of a play off make Stenson/Mickelson less enthralling? Of course it doesn't, play offs don't equal drama or excitement. It's very much like Italian Football, bugger all action for 90 minutes, then someone scores an OHK from the half way line.

Even if you consider 2015 to be interesting, you have to go back to 1984 with Seve to find anything comparable.  Over 30 years and 6 visits. Pathetic.

Of course it's opinion, but having it there every 5 years surely takes away from how "special" the place is doesn't it?

One things for sure, Carnoustie won’t disappoint. Drama is unavoidable on those closing holes. It’s not like they’re excruciatingly difficult but their ability to mess a players head under pressure is uncanny and that’s what leads to drama.

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Re: PGA Tour: AT&T National Pro-Am: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by McLaren on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 10:58 am

navyblueshorts wrote:

Take away the history and do I think St. Andrews is really up there with the best courses the U.K. has to offer? Nope, not at all.


What courses would you consider to have a more interesting set of greens than TOC?
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Re: PGA Tour: AT&T National Pro-Am: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 1:50 pm

McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:

Take away the history and do I think St. Andrews is really up there with the best courses the U.K. has to offer? Nope, not at all.


What courses would you consider to have a more interesting set of greens than TOC?
Dunno Mac. I'm not going to get into a detailed discussion. I've played TOC three times, the most recent of which was about 12 years back. My recollection? Mainly huge putting surfaces. There's nothing there that can't be found elsewhere.


Last edited by navyblueshorts on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: PGA Tour: AT&T National Pro-Am: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by JAS on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 2:40 pm

McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:

Take away the history and do I think St. Andrews is really up there with the best courses the U.K. has to offer? Nope, not at all.


What courses would you consider to have a more interesting set of greens than TOC?

Royal Dornoch?

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Re: PGA Tour: AT&T National Pro-Am: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 5:41 pm

McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:

Take away the history and do I think St. Andrews is really up there with the best courses the U.K. has to offer? Nope, not at all.


What courses would you consider to have a more interesting set of greens than TOC?

What courses don't Mac, or rather, which courses aren't so interesting? All courses have interesting bits to their greens and little quirks. Every course has unique greens by definition, but whilst we're at it, what is so interesting about the greens at TOC that make them better than any other? Define "interesting".

If St.Andrews was transported to Scunthorpe or any other East Coast town and was built today, would anyone care about it or rave about it? No, and your hilarious attempt to shoehorn the hackneyed "architecture" in there as every turn as if it makes it amazing (or as if you have special insight on the course) is ridiculous, especially as it was conceived as 22 holes and played the other way round.

Of all the greens on TOC, I can only think of 2,4,7,12, 16 and 17 as being anything remotely challenging or "interesting". The rest are fairly flat, and pretty featureless. Have you even played the course Mac (or is it a figment of your imagination like your claims of MSc and living abroad) or perhaps you like many were others simply overcome by the history, because you seem to buy every single cliché ever uttered about the place and every bit of sentimental claptrap that people like Doak write about it. Doesn't sound like you've played enough courses to form an opinion on why you even think it's good, yet you go on like you know it as well as your ceiling mounted Woods poster.

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Re: PGA Tour: AT&T National Pro-Am: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by raycastleunited on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 4:46 pm

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:

Take away the history and do I think St. Andrews is really up there with the best courses the U.K. has to offer? Nope, not at all.


What courses would you consider to have a more interesting set of greens than TOC?

What courses don't Mac, or rather, which courses aren't so interesting? All courses have interesting bits to their greens and little quirks. Every course has unique greens by definition, but whilst we're at it, what is so interesting about the greens at TOC that make them better than any other? Define "interesting".

If St.Andrews was transported to Scunthorpe or any other East Coast town and was built today, would anyone care about it or rave about it? No, and your hilarious attempt to shoehorn the hackneyed "architecture" in there  as every turn as if it makes it amazing (or as if you have special insight on the course) is ridiculous, especially as it was conceived as 22 holes and played the other way round.

Of all the greens on TOC, I can only think of 2,4,7,12, 16 and 17 as being anything remotely challenging or "interesting". The rest are fairly flat, and pretty featureless. Have you even played the course Mac (or is it a figment of your imagination like your claims of MSc and living abroad) or perhaps you like many were others simply overcome by the history, because you seem to buy every single cliché ever uttered about the place and every bit of sentimental claptrap that people like Doak write about it. Doesn't sound like you've played enough courses to form an opinion on why you even think it's good, yet you go on like you know it as well as your ceiling mounted Woods poster.

This reminds me of that time Maverick played Queenwood via google maps.

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Re: PGA Tour: AT&T National Pro-Am: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by Davie on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 9:01 pm

Hey don't knock Mav! He was a legend in his own lunchtime! Plus you'll only remind Mac that he was the one who supposedly "outed" him when we all knew anyway!

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Re: PGA Tour: AT&T National Pro-Am: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by GPB on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 2:51 am

super_realist wrote:

Of all the greens on TOC, I can only think of 2,4,7,12, 16 and 17 as being anything remotely challenging or "interesting".

Isn't that most of the greens?

(Lots of double greens)

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Re: PGA Tour: AT&T National Pro-Am: Notes from the Ballwasher

Post by super_realist on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 7:59 am

Yes, there's lots of double greens, but only the parts which belong to that particular hole is interesting, for example 7 shares a green with 11, but only a small part of the 7th is of interest or challenging.

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Re: PGA Tour: AT&T National Pro-Am: Notes from the Ballwasher

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