6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

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6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by George Carlin on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 11:01 am

     
SCOTLAND v ENGLAND
24 February 2018
KO: 16:45 GMT
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on [Old BBC Colonial]

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

A. Head to Head

135 Played 135
42 Won 75
18 Drawn 18
75 Lost 42
1,162 Points 1,623

B. Recent Form 

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

6 February 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 15 to England

11 March 2017
Twickenham, London
61 – 21 to England

C. Teams

SCOTLAND 

Hogg, Seymour, Jones, Horne, Maitland, Russell, Laidlaw; Reid, McInally, Berghan, Gilchrist, J Gray, Barclay (capt), Watson, Wilson.

Replacements: Lawson, J Bhatti, WP Nel, Swinson, Denton, Price, Grigg, Kinghorn.

ENGLAND

Brown, Watson, Joseph, Farrell, May, Ford, Care; M Vunipola, Hartley (capt), Cole, Launchbury, Itoje, Lawes, Robshaw, Hughes.

Replacements: George, Marler, Williams, G Kruis (Saracens), Underhill, Wigglesworth, B Te'o, J Nowell.


Last edited by George Carlin on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 9:27 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by NeilyBroon on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 11:18 am

George Carlin wrote:   
SCOTLAND v ENGLAND
24 February 2018
KO: 16:45 GMT
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on [Old BBC Colonial]

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

A. Head to Head

135 Played 135
42 Won 75
18 Drawn 18
75 Lost 42
1,162 Points 1,623

B. Recent Form 

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

6 February 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 15 to England

11 March 2017
Twickenham, London
61 – 21 to England

C. Teams

SCOTLAND 

[tbc]

ENGLAND

[tbc]

Should be good - if Scotland maintain their composure and keep a solid defence should be a close game. One thing I think they could possibly work on is scramble defence leading up to this as we need to be able to deal with being caught on the back foot, I have no doubt it'll happen with England - especially with Farrell and Ford pulling the strings. Expect to see a few dink-throughs and taking it out wide quickly after a battering in the middle from Simmonds et al. Jones will have seen that Russell is short of confidence on his kicking from hand - no doubt England will target that - I expect Hogg will look after a lot of the clearance kicks, which is no bad thing to be honest.

If we can get up and aggressive and play the game in England's half I can see us grinding out a win by maybe a penalty/unconverted try. Obviously luck will play a large part too.

In my heart of hearts though I can't help feeling this will be a little bit of a mincing from the England boys - I expect we'll lose by 10, hopefully not more. They'll be annoyed by the fact they didn't take Wales to the sword at Twickenham so I expect there will be no complacency going into this game, which is perhaps something Scotland have depended on in the past.

I'll say it'll be 17-27 to England but Scotland have proved me wrong before...

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 11:54 am

Unfortunately for us the likes of Marler, Hughes and Daley are likely to be back – the first two in particular could cause us problems. England were really lacking in ball carriers against Wales and Hughes, whether starting or off the bench, would really add to that.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 11:58 am

I think Jones will definitely be targeting Russell! He's looked lost so far ....
You may well see Mr Underhill or Haskell on at 7 with a mission...


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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 12:19 pm

I think the concept of specifically targeting opposition standoffs isn’t as big a deal as us fans seem to think, and I'm sure I've heard coaches say the same thing – I bet you will struggle to find a team in international rugby (or any rugby) who doesn’t have a big target painted on the opposition standoff when planning their gameplan and defence. Yes some standoffs will be affected more than others, but in Russell’s 30 odd caps I’ve never seen his game adversely affected by being specifically targeted. Indeed they are the kind of contests that he seems to thrive in when he’s on his game – making half breaks through traffic, clever chips over the top right on the gainline (we’ve got a few tries from these), creating space for others etc.

The problem with Finn as that he makes his mistakes when under little pressure – i.e. lapses of concentration. His two missed penalties to touch are prime examples of that. His kick out on the full another example – he didn’t have anyone in his face at the time yet mis-judged his kick by a good 10m.

So essentially what I’m saying is that you can try and target him all you want, but chances are he’s going to make mistakes on his own anyway!

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Poorfour on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 12:27 pm

In practice, targeting the fly half is less about the physical hit and more about reducing time on the ball. Most flyhalves make worse decisions if they are anticipating early contact.

Russell doesn't seem one who's overly flustered by the physicality, but the Welsh defence saw him make some flaky high risk decisions that led to interceptions. England will be trying to do the same. I wouldn't be surprised to see a slight change to the defensive organisation so that it's Ford and Farrell who press up with Joseph hanging slightly back to go for an interception if Russell tries a cut-out pass.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 12:30 pm

Ah yes...ALL teams target the 10...but in certain situations it may be more focused.

I think this game probably will be. If he makes mistakes without pressure...then he'll make more if Haskell or Underhill are in his face permanently.
"Blitzing the quarterback"

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by munkian on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 12:36 pm

If Scotland don't cut out the going wide nonsense and go through the middle now and again then the English defence will happily usher them from side to side all day long.
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 12:45 pm

No doubt about that munkain, and I think we were a lot better with that against France. There are times you can go wide early though but only if it is executed well - our first try against France we went wide from first phase but executed it very well, meaning defenders were committed and overlaps created. We didn't do that at all against Wales.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by tigertattie on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 12:59 pm

A week and a half to go and George has decided to get the fighting started already!

Could be a sore one!

Calcutta cup. I'm changing it's name to "Can't Call it" Cup. Really can't predict this. It could be a gubbing, a good win or a narrow fought loss/victory.

Some big calls to be made by both coaches. Does toonie play Finn? Does Jones drop Simmonds or Underhill to bring back Hughes?
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by tigertattie on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 1:02 pm

Today's interesting fact

Both of these teams have drawn with each other 18 times!
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 1:04 pm

tigertattie wrote:Today's interesting fact

Both of these teams have drawn with each other 18 times!

I'd happily take another one!

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by lostinwales on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 1:05 pm

tigertattie wrote:Today's interesting fact

Both of these teams have drawn with each other 18 times!

Isn't that astonishing. You would have expected one to have more draws than the other surely?*



* Just pretending to have a Brexit minister's idea of maths there for a second...

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by munkian on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 1:05 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:No doubt about that munkain, and I think we were a lot better with that against France. There are times you can go wide early though but only if it is executed well - our first try against France we went wide from first phase but executed it very well, meaning defenders were committed and overlaps created. We didn't do that at all against Wales.

Yup, agreed.

Also, get Denton carrying, did well when he came on.
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by doctor_grey on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 2:31 pm

lostinwales wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Today's interesting fact

Both of these teams have drawn with each other 18 times!

Isn't that astonishing. You would have expected one to have more draws than the other surely?*



* Just pretending to have a Brexit minister's idea of maths there for a second...
You...............You...........You...are Theresa May!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by George Carlin on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 3:56 pm

tigertattie wrote:Today's interesting fact

Both of these teams have drawn with each other 18 times!
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by George Carlin on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 4:00 pm

Just to clarify something for Scottish posters who may have otherwise have been confused:

               

A regular, irritating goblin          Mr Eddie Jones
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by majesticimperialman on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 5:03 pm

tigertattie wrote:Today's interesting fact

Both of these teams have drawn with each other 18 times!


I have just read that the last time Scotland beat England in the 6ns, was in 2008.

Ten years ago.

So can Scotland lay this ghost to rest? a big ask do you not think? Smile

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by NeilyBroon on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 5:14 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Today's interesting fact

Both of these teams have drawn with each other 18 times!


I have just read that the last time Scotland beat England in the 6ns, was in 2008.

Ten years ago.

So can Scotland lay this ghost to rest? a big ask do you not think? Smile

If we sort out our defense and lineouts. Sure why not.

We'll need a bit of a rub of the green though.
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 6:41 pm

Urgh it's that time of year again. I have my ticket for this one and I can see nothing other than an England win. The only way we might stand a chance is for Russell to get his head together smartly. If not there is little chance we'll get through that white wall.

England by 10 or more I think.

I do think the breakdown will be fascinating though. Watson is playing really well and I'd expect to see Denton start, I think we'll need his aggression. Call me weird, but I don't fear the scrum as much...
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 8:35 am

Footage of the England-Georgia scrummaging session has appeared online - not a lot to take from it as most scrums ended up on the floor! There were some that Georgia got the nudge and others that England did. Wayne Barnes was reffing.

Unfortunately there was no full on scrap between scrums, which is probably the reason most people wanted to watch it!

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by NeilyBroon on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 8:59 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Footage of the England-Georgia scrummaging session has appeared online - not a lot to take from it as most scrums ended up on the floor! There were some that Georgia got the nudge and others that England did. Wayne Barnes was reffing.

Unfortunately there was no full on scrap between scrums, which is probably the reason most people wanted to watch it!

Well it certainly looked like training... Not exactly showcasing a stable scrum.

I suspect the scrums will actually be more even than we think, it's the England line speed and counter rucking I'm worried about.
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 10:13 am

Simmonds out. Hughes will probably be fit.

Daly suffered a relapse this week.

Farrell and Watson unable to do contact training this week and currently doubtful.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 10:21 am

Farrell out would be a big boost for Scotland, and Watson is playing well too.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by SecretFly on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 10:25 am

LondonTiger wrote:Simmonds out. Hughes will probably be fit.

Daly suffered a relapse this week.

Farrell and Watson unable to do contact training this week and currently doubtful.

Ah damn it! Farrell will miss the Georgian Scrum training. He was looking forward to that.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 10:29 am

If Watson is unfit to play then Nowell comes in...offering a very different style of winger...but no less effective if he can get his hands on the ball enough.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by NeilyBroon on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 10:41 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:If Watson is unfit to play then Nowell comes in...offering a very different style of winger...but no less effective if he can get his hands on the ball enough.

I was going to say - it's an England side that still makes me very nervous.
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by tigertattie on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 10:46 am

I'd say Nowell and Watson are Englands best Wingers. Can't say I rate may that much.

I know folk will point out he scored two tries last weekend but those were the exception rather than the rule!
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by SecretFly on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 10:54 am

I'll take tries any way I can get them...exceptions or rules. They're all welcome.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 11:03 am

Mays pace puts people under pressure. He is great at chasing high balls / kicks (probably the best in the England squad), coming in to the midfield or to the other wing, giving that extra body and creating space.

He seems to be like marmite...he divides opinions of so many people.
Personally I hate marmite but I do like May

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 11:07 am

May has started very well. Integral in watsons tries for the first weekend as well. Personally like any of hose 3 on the wing rather than Daly.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by EST on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 11:12 am

Oh how I wish Farrell could miss this game - I really can't see us beating England if he plays, with the Ford/Farrell combo playing so well.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 11:24 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:May has started very well. Integral in  watsons tries for the first weekend as well. Personally like any of hose 3 on the wing rather than Daly.
Agree...even though Daly has scored tries.

Id love to see Daly at FB.

Edit - Though Brown was very good on Saturday

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 11:36 am

LondonTiger wrote:Simmonds out. Hughes will probably be fit.

Daly suffered a relapse this week.

Farrell and Watson unable to do contact training this week and currently doubtful.

Where did you see this LT?

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by majesticimperialman on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 11:36 am

tigertattie wrote:I'd say Nowell and Watson are Englands best Wingers. Can't say I rate may that much.

I know folk will point out he scored two tries last weekend but those were the exception rather than the rule!


I do agree that Noel and Watson are two fine wingers for England. But May as scored some fine tries for England i do think though that Noel is a better finisher/off the bench type of player.

So  for me the wingers should be May Watson. Noel on the bench.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 11:51 am

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Simmonds out. Hughes will probably be fit.

Daly suffered a relapse this week.

Farrell and Watson unable to do contact training this week and currently doubtful.

Where did you see this LT?

In the Times. They are described as having "slight" leg injuries.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Scottrf on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 12:28 pm

tigertattie wrote:I'd say Nowell and Watson are Englands best Wingers. Can't say I rate may that much.

I know folk will point out he scored two tries last weekend but those were the exception rather than the rule!

Well,

Player 1: 1 try every 2.58 games internationally.
Player 2: 1 try every 3.29 games internationally.

For one of these a try is the exception rather than the rule, the other is the most exciting attacking player in the Northern Hemisphere. I'll let you figure out the players.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by lostinwales on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 4:28 pm

There is the try that May scored against the AB's. There is the game against Argentina where he effectively played on both wings at the same time following Daly's red card.

People seem to have a go at him because sometimes he runs across the pitch, but hes a very good wing. Watson is a more complete winger, but probably more classical, and Nowell has less pace but a wonderful combative style. They all offer different challenges

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by beshocked on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 5:06 pm

May seems to have turned a corner but some of the poor performances he put in the past seemed to have been swept under the carpet now.

Also he's still a bit fragile defensively.

Still he's started the 6 nations well. Finished both the tries created by others well.


If a player is playing well I'll give credit where it's due.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 6:10 pm

beshocked wrote:May seems to have turned a corner but some of the poor performances he put in the past seemed to have been swept under the carpet now.

Also he's still a bit fragile defensively.

Still he's started the 6 nations well. Finished both the tries created by others well.


If a player is playing well I'll give credit where it's due.

Hartley has looked quite good....................................... Run

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Hazel Sapling on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 7:34 pm

May is a top attacking wing, Watson is a complete player and Nowell is a superb worker/defender.

As it is, Daly to FB with Watson and May/Nowell around him is probably the best back 3 England can muster. Unfortunately for England there is Brown, who to me is not in their league, who Jones rates.

Anyway, Scotland have work to do defensively. It would almost make sense to implement a new defensive system entirely after the French and Welsh have been able to abuse it, and JJ's lines last year are haunting. The defender rushing the line has failed and has allowed teams to get wide on us almost at will. Teddy Thomas is a decent winger but he is no Savea. There is a need to be selective (when we have numbers who can drift effectively) when rushing the 10-12 unless desperate. I am not sure what the best way to stop Farrell is (barring injury).

England will get a good platform and the goal for this game is to simply compete, stay close to near the end and look for an English error. Right now, England and NZ are the top nations, and NZ had so many mental lapses against us to still lose was gutting.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by compelling and rich on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 7:42 pm

Poorfour wrote:In practice, targeting the fly half is less about the physical hit and more about reducing time on the ball. Most flyhalves make worse decisions if they are anticipating early contact.

Russell doesn't seem one who's overly flustered by the physicality, but the Welsh defence saw him make some flaky high risk decisions that led to interceptions. England will be trying to do the same. I wouldn't be surprised to see a slight change to the defensive organisation so that it's Ford and Farrell who press up with Joseph hanging slightly back to go for an interception if Russell tries a cut-out pass.

tell Courtney lawes that Laugh

going up to Edinburgh for this next week, cant wait. been a few twickenham games but yet to go murrayfield

got a feeling it will be a very tight game

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 8:50 pm

compelling and rich wrote:
Poorfour wrote:In practice, targeting the fly half is less about the physical hit and more about reducing time on the ball. Most flyhalves make worse decisions if they are anticipating early contact.

Russell doesn't seem one who's overly flustered by the physicality, but the Welsh defence saw him make some flaky high risk decisions that led to interceptions. England will be trying to do the same. I wouldn't be surprised to see a slight change to the defensive organisation so that it's Ford and Farrell who press up with Joseph hanging slightly back to go for an interception if Russell tries a cut-out pass.

tell Courtney lawes that Laugh

going up to Edinburgh for this next week, cant wait. been a few twickenham games but yet to go murrayfield

got a feeling it will be a very tight game

I'll be about, if you fancy a pint and some good boozer pointers PM me.
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by beshocked on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:23 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
beshocked wrote:May seems to have turned a corner but some of the poor performances he put in the past seemed to have been swept under the carpet now.

Also he's still a bit fragile defensively.

Still he's started the 6 nations well. Finished both the tries created by others well.


If a player is playing well I'll give credit where it's due.

Hartley has looked quite good....................................... Run

Hartley has plodded along. Set piece has been solid to be fair. Still doesn't offer much around the park though. His tackle per minute ratio isn't good enough. His workrate IMO is an area lot of improvement can still be made.

For now Hartley should be retained. Same with Brown.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:26 pm

What's his tackle to mins played ratio in both the games? Is he being hidden.


Last edited by No 7&1/2 on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:33 pm

LCD is probably the best hooker we have round the field Taylor is back now. Dunn is the best out and it tackler. We're back to the tom youngs point of do you pick a hooker for the set piece or open play predominantly. Of course you need to consider the make up of the pack as a whole. When we have guys like underhill Robshaw simmonds lawes haskell do we let the front row get on with their job?

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by lostinwales on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:35 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:What's his tackle to mins played ration in both the games?

And is that ratio based on the amount of time the other team has the ball, or just for the minutes on the pitch.

most of these stats are actually terrible measures of a player's effectiveness. Even if particular players end up with very high stats it may just be down to their team mates not pulling their weight, or they are being targeted. Tackle stats for Ford are always high because as he's the smallest guy on the pitch the opposition will always run down his channel.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:36 pm

Stats will get you so far. There are other hookers that are better round the pitch though. If it's tackles you want dunn is an incredibly effective and aggressive tackler.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by munkian on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:46 pm

lostinwales wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:What's his tackle to mins played ration in both the games?

And is that ratio based on the amount of time the other team has the ball, or just for the minutes on the pitch.

most of these stats are actually terrible measures of a player's effectiveness. Even if particular players end up with very high stats it may just be down to their team mates not pulling their weight, or they are being targeted. Tackle stats for Ford are always high because as he's the smallest guy on the pitch the opposition will always run down his channel.

I think Hartley made around 4 tackles v Wales
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by lostinwales on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stats will get you so far. There are other hookers that are better round the pitch though. If it's tackles you want dunn is an incredibly effective and aggressive tackler.

Not arguing that there are better hookers for specific jobs (ooh err...). Hartley is probably our best set piece hooker and is the most consistent line out thrower. He's not quick on the pitch and doesn't carry much, and I have no idea what his stats are like for hitting rucks etc. I do think he does a decent job of holding the team together, although he and Eddie do need to work on the team discipline more.

I don't think there is a clear alternative captain in the existing squad. The closest thing to one that we have is Farrell, and he's an OK stand in but he doesn't strike me as the leader on the pitch we need.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

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