6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

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6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by George Carlin on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 11:01 am

First topic message reminder :

     
SCOTLAND v ENGLAND
24 February 2018
KO: 16:45 GMT
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on [Old BBC Colonial]

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

A. Head to Head

135 Played 135
42 Won 75
18 Drawn 18
75 Lost 42
1,162 Points 1,623

B. Recent Form 

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

6 February 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 15 to England

11 March 2017
Twickenham, London
61 – 21 to England

C. Teams

SCOTLAND 

Hogg, Seymour, Jones, Horne, Maitland, Russell, Laidlaw; Reid, McInally, Berghan, Gilchrist, J Gray, Barclay (capt), Watson, Wilson.

Replacements: Lawson, J Bhatti, WP Nel, Swinson, Denton, Price, Grigg, Kinghorn.

ENGLAND

Brown, Watson, Joseph, Farrell, May, Ford, Care; M Vunipola, Hartley (capt), Cole, Launchbury, Itoje, Lawes, Robshaw, Hughes.

Replacements: George, Marler, Williams, G Kruis (Saracens), Underhill, Wigglesworth, B Te'o, J Nowell.


Last edited by George Carlin on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 9:27 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 20 Feb 2018, 5:19 pm

Damn. Too subtle.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 20 Feb 2018, 5:21 pm

Well we rushed vunipola back last year wen perhaps we didn't need to. Would be less of an issue had we not been down to what out 5th choice at number 8? Possibly worth the risk.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 20 Feb 2018, 5:21 pm

Last year we were on our second thread having already filled one by the Thursday before the game.

A year on some interesting reading:

http://www.606v2.com/t65317-6n-2017-england-vs-scotland-take-2


Sadly the first post (ok mine) could be equally appropriate today:

LondonTiger wrote:As other thread is close to full.

And to start it off in the best possible way:

Hartley, really!!!!!!!
Can Hogg tackle?
Can Brown(M) pass?
Whither Frodo?

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Poorfour on Tue 20 Feb 2018, 5:45 pm

Itoje was neither underrated nor under appreciated prior to his debut. I don’t know anyone who didn’t think he was a very good prospect. But he was only a prospect. Plenty of very promising players did not make the step up to International rugby. Even if the risk with Itoje was lower than for most, it wasn’t a certainty.

(And for the record, the RWC was not the place to find out, for all that with hindsight we can speculate that England might have gone better had they taken him. England might also have gone better had they played Care with Farrell, picked Easter over an unfit Bill and Ben, or left Burgess on for the full 80. All of which were better bets than gambling on Itoje at the last minute, and none of which were taken.)

However, Itoje has also been repeatedly overhyped since his debut. For the whole of the last 6 Nations, buildup and tournament, pundits went on and on about how he was the answer at 6, even after several underwhelming performances out of position.

Likewise, beshocked, I don’t see anyone on here arguing that any player is undroppable or a “deity”. You are the only person who uses those words with any serious intent, usually in a straw man of other people’s positions. What people typically post is that they can see a justification for why Eddie persists in picking players you don’t rate.

Seek first to understand... my approach to all of this is to try to understand why Eddie does what he does. He is, after all, demonstrably better at it than anyone else except perhaps his All Black counterparts. He’s not so inscrutable as all that. He actually says quite a lot about how and why he picks people, and it’s all sensible stuff. Until he comes unstuck, he’s justified in what he’s doing.

But he is clearly looking at different things than the rest of us, so people often choose to ignore what he actually says and does in favour of their own prejudices and perceptions.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by cascough on Tue 20 Feb 2018, 6:50 pm

beshocked wrote:cascough look you can be pedantic and say it was 10-4 not 10-2 but it's still too much of a difference.

If you look at Ireland, they conceded a lot less and so did Wales.


10 penalties given away is not something to be proud of.

Room for improvement.


What's pedantic about pointing out what the ref actually pinged? Even the ref pointed it out to AWJ so it's clearly not insignificant.

You think it makes no difference but it does on 2 counts. Either the penalty count is 10-4, which is not that crazy, and although very good by Wales, not the record breaking performance it's being lauded as, OR, had the TMO awarded Wales a try when Anscombe touched down then England's count is only 9, which beats the target they, and most teams, set for themselves in a game.

Am I trying to say England's discipline was as good as Wales? No clearly I'm not.

But I am saying that the England Wales game wasn't indicative of a side with a discipline problem.

England will be fine and I expect Scotland to give away more penalties than Wales this weekend. We should have plenty in the tank to win.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Tue 20 Feb 2018, 10:39 pm

I would just like to say that this thread has been pretty enjoyable so far, despite the chat about hookers, let's hope it can continue!!!
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by TrailApe on Tue 20 Feb 2018, 11:58 pm

despite the chat about hookers

Must have missed that... Rolling Eyes
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by ChequeredJersey on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 12:15 am

Backs 

Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens) 

Forwards 

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens) 
George Kruis (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by SecretFly on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 12:50 am

I've just noticed...players from 8 club teams? England got it bloody easy! Wink

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 9:06 am

Depending on fitness issues, Ewels and Haskell to be left out of the 23?

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Scottrf on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 9:49 am

I'm not sure he would have Haskell around to not pick him.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 9:56 am

How does Ewels keep getting picked?? I just don't see what he brings over other young locks in the league.

Haskell will be in the match day squad. If he's motivated he will bring some aggression and power for the back row. And a player who knows the system.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by beshocked on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 10:03 am

Poorfour

Nick Easter over Billy? picard That has to be a joke. Billy was one of our best players before his injury, so was Youngs actually. I know you are a Quins fan but come on.... that's ridiculous.

You yourself prove that yes Itoje was underrated and underappreciated because he was not your typical prospect.

Most other prospects have not risen at the same rate because they are typical. You do not need to be particularly intelligent to see how he was different.

By the time RWC squad was being selected, he had won the AP, captained LV cup victory and captained U20s to victory, picked for Saxons. He had played away in Clermont which was good learning experience.


Itoje wasn't exactly being asked to play in a settled backrow was he?


I can understand why Jones has picked players also but they still hold deity status.

When I say this I mean they can do no wrong in the eyes of many England fans.

I don't think it's right to defend the poor workrate of player X for example.

Players aren't faultless. There's room for improvement.

I am on the other hand, champion players but I also am more critical because I want them to perform better.

I know George's lineout throwing hasn't been good enough in the 6 nations so far. I know Itoje's form hasn't been good enough.

I guess my problem is I want other fans to think more like me- I don't believe players are faultless.

Perhaps I should just accept I am different.

I am harsh on players because I want performance levels to be higher.

If certain players were as good as some fans think then they would have been picked on the Lions tour for example.


Cascough 10-4 is still a big difference. Room for improvement and that's what I believe.

England must try to be better.

I don't think England should rest on their laurels.

They didn't crush Wales - they only won by 6 points against a team missing more players.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 10:06 am

Perhaps I should just accept I am different.

There we go....at last thumbsup

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 10:09 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:How does Ewels keep getting picked?? I just don't see what he brings over other young locks in the league.

Haskell will be in the match day squad. If he's motivated he will bring some aggression and power for the back row. And a player who knows the system.  

If Haskell is in, then that probably means Underhill misses out. (I am assuming that there will be four locks again)

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 10:14 am

Scotland team announced at 11 today

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 10:16 am

It depends on Hughes fitness LT I guess. I doubt if he is fit enough to last a full match v Scotland so do you look to replace him with a similar big power house in Haskell...or the younger underhill.


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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 10:18 am

beshocked wrote:
I can understand why Jones has picked players also but they still hold deity status.
When I say this I mean they can do no wrong in the eyes of many England fans.

Only you deem any players to have deity status.
I am not aware of any posters who believe that (I assume you mean Hartley and Brown) can do no wrong. Hell we have all lambasted their "faults" but we are also willing to consider why they get selected rather than just assume Jones is an idiot.


As to Itoje, last time I will say this but if Mark McCall felt he was not ready for RWC, why do you think he was? That tournament came a year too early for him and being behind Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes and Parling was and still is understandable.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by propdavid_london on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 10:20 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:How does Ewels keep getting picked?? I just don't see what he brings over other young locks in the league.

Haskell will be in the match day squad. If he's motivated he will bring some aggression and power for the back row. And a player who knows the system.  
Ewells is only 22 I think! Eddie must see something he likes there.
Admittedly he is unlikely to force his way into the starting lineup with the likes of Itoje, Launch, Lawes in front of him.
Probably on a level pegging with Kruis (on current form).

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by lostinwales on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 10:24 am

There is one current poster that I try and leave on 'foe' so I don't automatically read the posts. It's not gwlad.

It is hugely frustrating when you see reasonable arguments constantly ignored or 'cherry picked', and I know I shouldn't but here goes.


1) Nick Easter was not as good as a fit Billy, but then (for what he does) I don't think anybody is. FACT!
2) Nick Easter was still a good no.8. Very effective in his own way (and not dissimilar to Billy - no pace but a lot of strength, good hands and a brain) Less of an all round worker but could actually contribute to the lineout and would truck the ball up all day.
3) It is far from crazy to suggest that a fit Nick Easter might have been more useful to England than an unfit Billy

We are fortunate that we now have 3 no.8's who all have a lot to offer, and all seem to have their heads in the right place (i.e. not Morgan).

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by ChequeredJersey on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 10:29 am

beshocked wrote:Poorfour

Nick Easter over Billy? picard That has to be a joke. Billy was one of our best players before his injury, so was Youngs actually. I know you are a Quins fan but come on.... that's ridiculous.

You yourself prove that yes Itoje was underrated and underappreciated because he was not your typical prospect.

Most other prospects have not risen at the same rate because they are typical. You do not need to be particularly intelligent to see how he was different.

By the time RWC squad was being selected, he had won the AP, captained LV cup victory and captained U20s to victory, picked for Saxons. He had played away in Clermont which was good learning experience.


Itoje wasn't exactly being asked to play in a settled backrow was he?


I can understand why Jones has picked players also but they still hold deity status.

When I say this I mean they can do no wrong in the eyes of many England fans.

I don't think it's right to defend the poor workrate of player X for example.

Players aren't faultless. There's room for improvement.

I am on the other hand, champion players but I also am more critical because I want them to perform better.

I know George's lineout throwing hasn't been good enough in the 6 nations so far. I know Itoje's form hasn't been good enough.

I guess my problem is I want other fans to think more like me- I don't believe players are faultless.

Perhaps I should just accept I am different.

I am harsh on players because I want performance levels to be higher.

If certain players were as good as some fans think then they would have been picked on the Lions tour for example.


Cascough 10-4 is still a big difference. Room for improvement and that's what I believe.

England must try to be better.

I don't think England should rest on their laurels.

They didn't crush Wales - they only won by 6 points against a team missing more players.

I don’t think your critical nature is unique in any way, Beshocked, and I think it’s a bit lacking in insight to profess that this is the case, imply that bias affects you less
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by ChequeredJersey on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 10:30 am

LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:How does Ewels keep getting picked?? I just don't see what he brings over other young locks in the league.

Haskell will be in the match day squad. If he's motivated he will bring some aggression and power for the back row. And a player who knows the system.  

If Haskell is in, then that probably means Underhill misses out. (I am assuming that there will be four locks again)

Or we’ve abandoned the 4 locks idea? Hopefully?

(I can’t see it but can always hope)
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Scottrf on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 10:36 am

beshocked wrote:I guess my problem is I want other fans to think more like me- I don't believe players are faultless.

Perhaps I should just accept I am different.

Yep, you're the bestest and most greatest analyst in rugby history.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by TightHEAD on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 10:43 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Scotland team announced at 11 today
 What about the other 4 players and bench? Erm
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Scottrf on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 10:46 am

TightHEAD wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Scotland team announced at 11 today
 What about the other 4 players and bench? Erm

The rest of their players have gone missing this 6 Nations Run

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 10:48 am

propdavid_london wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:How does Ewels keep getting picked?? I just don't see what he brings over other young locks in the league.

Haskell will be in the match day squad. If he's motivated he will bring some aggression and power for the back row. And a player who knows the system.  
Ewells is only 22 I think!  Eddie must see something he likes there.
Admittedly he is unlikely to force his way into the starting lineup with the likes of Itoje, Launch, Lawes in front of him.
Probably on a level pegging with Kruis (on current form).

Oh I appreciate he's young and obviously the Coaches have far more data and insight than I do...but im just saying that as an arm chair rugby coach Wink

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 10:50 am

beshocked wrote:Poorfour



I can understand why Jones has picked players also but they still hold deity status.

When I say this I mean they can do no wrong in the eyes of many England fans.


Like you are with Goode, George, Itoje etc...?

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 10:50 am

lostinwales wrote:We are fortunate that we now have 3 no.8's who all have a lot to offer, and all seem to have their heads in the right place.

In between the second rows arses?

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Scottrf on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 10:52 am

Hartley surpassing Wilkinson to #2 with 92 England caps this weekend.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by lostinwales on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:01 am

It is probably going to be one of Haskell, Underhill and Kruis to miss out

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:05 am

lostinwales wrote:It is probably going to be one of Haskell, Underhill and Kruis to miss out

Personally I would prefer Kruis to miss out, with a specialist back row starting and Jones having to make the hard decision of benching one from Launchbury, Lawes and Itoje. Just feel all 3 will start though.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by lostinwales on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:08 am

LondonTiger wrote:
lostinwales wrote:It is probably going to be one of Haskell, Underhill and Kruis to miss out

Personally I would prefer Kruis to miss out, with a specialist back row starting and Jones having to make the hard decision of benching one from Launchbury, Lawes and Itoje. Just feel all 3 will start though.

I agree - and bench Itoje. I think he could certainly provide impact late on

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by lostinwales on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:09 am

Scotland team up - same starters
Nel, Swinson, Grigg on bench

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:12 am

Head Coach Gregor Townsend has reselected the starting line-up from Scotland’s round two win over France (32-26) for this Saturday’s Calcutta Cup clash with England at BT Murrayfield Stadium (kick-off 4.45pm) – live on BBC.

The Scots fought back from a ten-point deficit on two occasions and scored 12 unanswered points in the final quarter to post their first win of the 2018 NatWest 6 Nations Championship, with the two-try showing rewarded with reselection for the staring XV.

There are, however, three changes to the bench with fit-again prop Willem Nel (Edinburgh Rugby) and lock Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) – both of whom returned to the squad this week – named among the replacements in place of Jon Welsh (Newcastle Falcons) and Ben Toolis (Edinburgh Rugby).

Centre Nick Grigg is the only change among the backs replacements as a reward for his consistency of performance for Glasgow Warriors, highlighted in his man-of-the-match winning performance for the club in their bonus-point win over Cheetahs last weekend.

Scotland Head Coach Gregor Townsend, said: “The players put a huge amount of effort into our win over France. They found a way to win and kept attacking the opposition up until the final whistle.

“England are the number two side in the world and have shown a very good level of consistency in the past couple of seasons. This is due to the quality of their playing and coaching staff, who have done a tremendous job.

“They have a very good defence, an excellent set-piece and like to get 10 and 12 on the ball as much as possible in attack. Taking on England is going to be a huge challenge and we are well aware that only our very best will be good enough in this fixture.

“As always our supporters will play a vital role throughout the match and we’re delighted to be back at BT Murrayfield with the backing of our home fans.”

The unchanged starting side means Scotland’s British & Irish Lions backline quintet of Stuart Hogg, Greig Laidlaw, Sean Maitland, Finn Russell and Tommy Seymour return, with the Glasgow Warriors partnership of Pete Horne and Huw Jones completing the division.

Edinburgh Rugby provide half the pack with prop Simon Berghan, hooker Start McInally, lock Grant Gilchrist and back-row Hamish Watson back in the fold, with London Irish loosehead Gordon Reid returning to the front-row, Jonny Gray completing the second-row and captain John Barclay and vice-captain Ryan Wilson in the back-row once again.

Scotland team to play England at BT Murrayfield Stadium
NatWest 6 Nations Round 3: Saturday 24 February (kick-off 4.45pm) - live on BBC

15. Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) – 57 caps

14. Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 41 caps
13. Huw Jones (Glasgow Warriors) – 13 caps
12. Pete Horne (Glasgow Warriors) – 30 caps
11. Sean Maitland (Saracens) – 31 caps

10. Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors) – 34 caps
9. Greig Laidlaw VICE CAPTAIN (ASM Clermont Auvergne) – 60 caps

1. Gordon Reid (London Irish) – 29 caps
2. Stuart McInally (Edinburgh Rugby) – 14 caps
3. Simon Berghan (Edinburgh Rugby) – 6 caps
4. Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby) – 20 caps
5. Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 40 caps
6. John Barclay CAPTAIN (Scarlets) – 68 caps
7. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) – 17 caps
8. Ryan Wilson VICE CAPTAIN (Glasgow Warriors) – 34 caps

Substitutes
16. Scott Lawson (Newcastle Falcons) – 47 caps
17. Jamie Bhatti (Glasgow Warriors) – 5 caps
18. Willem Nel (Edinburgh Rugby) – 19 caps
19. Tim Swinson (Glasgow Warriors) – 33 caps
20. David Denton (Worcester Warriors) – 36 caps
21. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – 13 caps
22. Nick Grigg (Glasgow Warriors) – 1 cap
23. Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:22 am

Key points for me are:

Russell starts - he was probably never going to be dropped anyway

Nel over Welsh - confirms the theory that Townsend will only play Welsh if he really has to. Nel is in no way up to speed for international rugby having been just returned from long term injury, yet he still gets picked over Welsh.

Swinson over Toolis - a little harsh on Toolis but Townsend obviously prefers Swinson's abrasive style off the bench

Grigg over Harris - Harris is no big loss but big call to replace him with Grigg over more experienced player like Matt Scott. Grigg's performance for Glasgow last week probably gave him the nod

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by beshocked on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:24 am

lostinwales

It's because it completely stupid to say Easter was as good as Billy.

It's not reasonable to do that. Billy was one of our best performers in the RWC before injury.

Easter was always more impressive for Quins than England.

Well of course Easter would be more valuable than an injured Billy but Billy had a good tournament till his injury.

If Easter was as good as you believe, he would have performed better in the RWC.


Chequeredjersey yes of course I can be biased but am also critical of players.

Geordiefalcon well you have must have ignored the posts when I've talked about how Goode isn't fast enough at international level or Itoje giving away too many penalties or George not being accurate enough at lineout time in this year's 6 nations. Your quality of posting has dropped. What's happened? Something in real life affecting you?

Scottrf no I am not but sometimes I notice things other people don't.

Londontiger


Fair enough do you have a quote?- I do remember Mccall saying this though:

Saracens boss Mark McCall added: "At this club if we think you're ready we're going to put you in. It took Maro just three months to convince us. He's bright, he's physical, he makes things happen around him. He's almost perfect."


I don't think I've ever heard you criticise Hartley for his lack of workrate.

I know why he's selected but don't ignore the limitations.


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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by BamBam on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:26 am

Much obliged Wink

I look at the Scotland team and think the biggest threat to us is the breakdown if Barclay/Watson can have an influence there.

I think Scotland lack big carriers, but they haven't really played that way for a while. If our defence can rattle the half backs, I don't see Scotland having the big carriers to be able to reset and go again

Russell is probably key to the game, if he cuts out the mistakes and comes up with some magic that he has shown he can, Scotland will be dangerous.

I still favour England, but fancy it to be one of the games of the tournament

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:30 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Key points for me are:



Nel over Welsh - confirms the theory that Townsend will only play Welsh if he really has to. Nel is in no way up to speed for international rugby having been just returned from long term injury, yet he still gets picked over Welsh.


Scotlands loss is the falcons gain.

HOWEVER, we are short at TH at the moment. I wonder if there has been a bit of an agreement between Townsend and Deano about releasing Welsh?

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:32 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Key points for me are:



Nel over Welsh - confirms the theory that Townsend will only play Welsh if he really has to. Nel is in no way up to speed for international rugby having been just returned from long term injury, yet he still gets picked over Welsh.


Scotlands loss is the falcons gain.

HOWEVER, we are short at TH at the moment. I wonder if there has been a bit of an agreement between Townsend and Deano about releasing Welsh?

I’d be surprised – Townsend has shown many times in his career that he doesn’t rate Welsh and he has confirmed it again here. Nel is in no way match fit to play this game, and Welsh is battle hardened and ready, yet he gets dropped.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:33 am

BamBam wrote:I look at the Scotland team and think the biggest threat to us is the breakdown if Barclay/Watson can have an influence there.

Our supporting runners need to be much more precise to ensure that ball carriers do not get isolated. (one of the penalties Itoje conceded for holding on was largely caused by Lawes tripping over). We also need to sacrifice that extra metre or two to ensure we retain possession.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by ChequeredJersey on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:34 am

BamBam wrote:Much obliged Wink

I look at the Scotland team and think the biggest threat to us is the breakdown if Barclay/Watson can have an influence there.

I think Scotland lack big carriers, but they haven't really played that way for a while. If our defence can rattle the half backs, I don't see Scotland having the big carriers to be able to reset and go again

Russell is probably key to the game, if he cuts out the mistakes and comes up with some magic that he has shown he can, Scotland will be dangerous.

I still favour England, but fancy it to be one of the games of the tournament

I think we should win comfortably, can pile pressure on Russell with no attacking inside him and no much help outside him, where Scotland are still missing several class 12s. Pack looks a tad lightweight which makes me less worried about our lack of carriers. Just need to deal with that breakdown.

We won’t go for a proper backrow but we really really should imo
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by EWT Spoons on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:35 am

Can't really argue with the changes. Possibly harsh on Welsh & Toolis as both were average to poor against Wales (Welsh Avg, Toolis poor) but Toolis at least has some credit in the bank after a very good autumn. Welsh less so (just due to not playing much international rugby) but he's at least match fit, which is not something that can be suggested of Nel. I can only assume Nel has shown up in training in the form of his life....which seems unlikely.

Also not sure why Kinghorn is on the bench, don't get me wrong I rate him highly, but he's only 20 and making your debut in the calcutta cup, is massively unfair on the lad. The only way he's getting off the bench is if Scotland have run up a 40 point lead, which I'm going to put my own nuts in the oven here and say is unlikely. Jackson would have made more sense, as if Finn is having a nightmare like the last two games, he would offer another alternative at 10 and would also be accustomed to playing International rugby, which is not something you can suggest of Kinghorn. Seems like a waste of a bench spot.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by beshocked on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:36 am

I feel that Scotland should have started Denton instead of benching him.

Not particularly worried about the front five aside from J.Gray who will be expected to tackle, tackle and tackle.

The Scottish backline has sufficient excitement in it but can they keep their error count low?

Scotland must be clinical.

Bambam as for you keep your own dirty habits. Keep them to yourself.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by ChequeredJersey on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:36 am

If Scotland Boss the breakdown though, 13 and the wings coming onto fast or turnover ball with Russell playing flat will
Really test our defence. Should be fun
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by lostinwales on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:38 am

Here we go. Yes I got what I deserved when I gave him a poke

LIW wrote:It is hugely frustrating when you see reasonable arguments constantly ignored or 'cherry picked', and I know I shouldn't but here goes.

1) Nick Easter was not as good as a fit Billy, but then (for what he does) I don't think anybody is. FACT!

BS wrote:    It's because it completely stupid to say Easter was as good as Billy.

    It's not reasonable to do that. Billy was one of our best performers in the RWC before injury.

You do expand fair enough. As for Easter and what he did at the RWC he had half an hour vs Australia and scored 3 tries vs Uraguay

Billy had 30 mins vs Fiji and an hour in a losing game against Wales. I think saying he had a good tournament up until his injury is a stretch.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:39 am

BamBam wrote:Much obliged Wink

I look at the Scotland team and think the biggest threat to us is the breakdown if Barclay/Watson can have an influence there.

I think Scotland lack big carriers, but they haven't really played that way for a while. If our defence can rattle the half backs, I don't see Scotland having the big carriers to be able to reset and go again

Russell is probably key to the game, if he cuts out the mistakes and comes up with some magic that he has shown he can, Scotland will be dangerous.

I still favour England, but fancy it to be one of the games of the tournament

This 100%, I would have started Dozer for this one. I can't see Denton bringing impact from the bench like he did against France, mainly because the English pack won't be blowing in the last quarter, quite the opposite I'd wager, that's when I'd expect them to try and kill the game off.

Without Dunbar or Taylor we lack the power in the centre either. This smacks of the Scotland vs England clashes of the 80s and 90s where most of the muscle is with England and most of the guile with Scotland.

I can't see many ways we can win this one, but if we do it will be on lighting fast rucking and lots of phases changing the angle of attack. Do we have the power up front to make the rucking game as fast as we need though? Unlikely I'd say.
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:46 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Key points for me are:



Nel over Welsh - confirms the theory that Townsend will only play Welsh if he really has to. Nel is in no way up to speed for international rugby having been just returned from long term injury, yet he still gets picked over Welsh.


Scotlands loss is the falcons gain.

HOWEVER, we are short at TH at the moment. I wonder if there has been a bit of an agreement between Townsend and Deano about releasing Welsh?

I’d be surprised – Townsend has shown many times in his career that he doesn’t rate Welsh and he has confirmed it again here. Nel is in no way match fit to play this game, and Welsh is battle hardened and ready, yet he gets dropped.

Yeah valid point.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RDW_Scotland on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:47 am

I've cleared up a number of posts on the thread from this morning - there are a number of perpetrators so please pretty please can we keep it to the rugby.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by beshocked on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:47 am

lostinwales wrote:Here we go. Yes I got what I deserved when I gave him a poke

LIW wrote:It is hugely frustrating when you see reasonable arguments constantly ignored or 'cherry picked', and I know I shouldn't but here goes.

1) Nick Easter was not as good as a fit Billy, but then (for what he does) I don't think anybody is. FACT!

BS wrote:    It's because it completely stupid to say Easter was as good as Billy.

    It's not reasonable to do that. Billy was one of our best performers in the RWC before injury.

You do expand fair enough. As for Easter and what he did at the RWC he had half an hour vs Australia and scored 3 tries vs Uraguay

Billy had 30 mins vs Fiji and an hour in a losing game against Wales. I think saying he had a good tournament up until his injury is a stretch.

Well it seems as if you actually missed the RWC.

Billy made a big impact when he came on vs Fiji and was one of our best players vs Wales. Losing Youngs and Billy had a huge impact on the result.

Of course you don't need to believe me.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/sep/26/rugby-world-cup-2015-wales-england

https://www.ruck.co.uk/england-25-28-wales-player-by-player-ratings/



Easter should get a medal for scoring 3 tries in a dead rubber game vs Uruguay?

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:49 am

Given its 6ns time and people get wound up and banned a little more easily can't we just take a deep breath read and understand people's points without twisting things and ignoring key points? Pretty good scotland team and I'm a touch worried about Watson should lawes and Hughes start. A touch is massively understating it actually.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

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