6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

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Post by George Carlin on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 11:01 am

First topic message reminder :

6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February - Page 10 Scot_f10     6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February - Page 10 Englan11
SCOTLAND v ENGLAND
24 February 2018
KO: 16:45 GMT
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on [Old BBC Colonial]

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

A. Head to Head

135 Played 135
42 Won 75
18 Drawn 18
75 Lost 42
1,162 Points 1,623

B. Recent Form 

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

6 February 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 15 to England

11 March 2017
Twickenham, London
61 – 21 to England

C. Teams

SCOTLAND 
6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February - Page 10 Scotty11
Hogg, Seymour, Jones, Horne, Maitland, Russell, Laidlaw; Reid, McInally, Berghan, Gilchrist, J Gray, Barclay (capt), Watson, Wilson.

Replacements: Lawson, J Bhatti, WP Nel, Swinson, Denton, Price, Grigg, Kinghorn.

ENGLAND
6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February - Page 10 Englis10
Brown, Watson, Joseph, Farrell, May, Ford, Care; M Vunipola, Hartley (capt), Cole, Launchbury, Itoje, Lawes, Robshaw, Hughes.

Replacements: George, Marler, Williams, G Kruis (Saracens), Underhill, Wigglesworth, B Te'o, J Nowell.


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Post by lostinwales on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 8:08 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Eddie Jones praising Russell's world class abilities.

Yeah I know - where's the bite? We are all being nice on here waiting for some fireworks and not even Eddie can provide them?

All we have had so far is Berghan calling us English a bunch of 'winkers' and talks of Scotland being colonised by said same 'winkers'.

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Post by cascough on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 8:44 pm

We will be fine. Scotland is a small country batting above it's weight.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 9:57 pm

cascough wrote:We will be fine. Scotland is a small country batting above it's weight.

True. And England have not lost to Scotland in the last 10 years. Very Happy kiss

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 10:03 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
cascough wrote:We will be fine. Scotland is a small country batting above it's weight.

True. And England have not lost to Scotland in the last 10 years. Very Happy kiss

Be careful. After all we get to beat NZ once every 10 years.

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Post by cascough on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 11:09 pm

I should point out, my cheeky comment isn't what I think, it's what Eddie Jones said this week.

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Post by cascough on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 11:16 pm

Poorfour wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm. The back row I fear a bit. Lots of go forward from it but not the most mobile. Scotland will be locking their lips on turnovers. This is a game.which may force me to reconsider how good lawes is at 6 he won't get as big a task for a while.

It's also an interesting test of how much of a 7 Robshaw isn't.

For someone who couldn't see his point of difference at openside in 2015, Eddie's been using him at 7 quite a bit recently. Four matches on the trot now... despite having Underhill and Simmonds available for most of them.

To be fair, I think Eddie has put those comments to bed now. He's remarked a few times since that until he came into camp and worked with him, he didn't appreciate just how good Robshaw is. Also lets not forget when England won the Grandslam, in Jones' first interview post match (pitchside) the first player he praised was Robshaw. One might argue it's all just a bit of confidence building, I mean, what else would he say? "I've come into camp and he's alright, so i suppose he will do for now". His continued selection (and as you say, we do have options) makes me think Jones talks genuinely about his feelings on Robshaw's abilities.

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Post by Poorfour on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 6:21 am

cascough wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Hmm. The back row I fear a bit. Lots of go forward from it but not the most mobile. Scotland will be locking their lips on turnovers. This is a game.which may force me to reconsider how good lawes is at 6 he won't get as big a task for a while.

It's also an interesting test of how much of a 7 Robshaw isn't.

For someone who couldn't see his point of difference at openside in 2015, Eddie's been using him at 7 quite a bit recently. Four matches on the trot now... despite having Underhill and Simmonds available for most of them.

To be fair, I think Eddie has put those comments to bed now. He's remarked a few times since that until he came into camp and worked with him, he didn't appreciate just how good Robshaw is. Also lets not forget when England won the Grandslam, in Jones' first interview post match (pitchside) the first player he praised was Robshaw. One might argue it's all just a bit of confidence building, I mean, what else would he say? "I've come into camp and he's alright, so i suppose he will do for now". His continued selection (and as you say, we do have options) makes me think Jones talks genuinely about his feelings on Robshaw's abilities.

Mate, I was posting on a message board where some posters really don’t like Robshaw. I may have been being a bit naughty.

...as Eddie might have put it.

I was being very tongue in cheek. But being more serious, Eddie’s praised his qualities as a 6 but hasn’t said anything much about him as a 7. It’s interesting that he’s quietly started picking him there, and I do wonder how long it will continue.

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 8:22 am

Lets face it we could send a 2nd string team north of the border and win. So let's pick one containing players not in with a chance of playing in this years 6nations.

I'll kick it off.

Freddie Burns at 10.
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Post by Poorfour on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 8:36 am

TightHEAD wrote:Lets face it we could send a 2nd string team north of the border and win. So let's pick one containing players not in with a chance of playing in this years 6nations.

I'll kick it off.

Freddie Burns at 10.

Trying to exclude injured players who might have had a shot if fit...

Auterac Cowan-Dickie Hill
Ewels Twomey
Willis Chisholm Kvesic

Robson Burns
deVoto (or Lozowski, or Francis) Tuilagi
Walker Goode Wade

A bit lightweight in the back three, perhaps. Not an awful side, though

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Post by George Carlin on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 9:25 am

cascough wrote:We will be fine. Scotland is a small country batting above it's weight.
Why I oughta...I oughta....
6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February - Page 10 600-00983737em
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Post by beshocked on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 9:27 am

Still think there are mind games at work by Jones.

He's building up Russell and Scotland.

lostinwales why should Jones write Scotland's team talk?

Scotland will have to generate their own belief instead of being fuelled by Jones.

Scotland are a side with promising potential but I believe lack consistency and belief at times.


Scotland at Murrayfield are a more confident beast than away from home so it's wise for Jones not to motivate Scotland too much through his own comments.


Of course a quick start is important for every side but I feel even more so for Scotland this weekend.


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Post by George Carlin on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 9:30 am

I can guarantee you that Scotland aren't thinking about Eddie 'Squashed Goblin' Jones in the slightest.

Fantastically self-important of another coach to believe that their click-bait brain droppings do anything other than disappear into the ether.

Townsend was asked about what he thought of Michael Cheika's quotes before the last Australia match. Toonie hadn't heard that he'd said anything.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 9:33 am

Think it does depend george as some players and coaches will be affected.

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Post by beshocked on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 9:36 am

George Carlin

Disagree. I think if a coach says something inflammatory you can use them to motivate your team.

Well of course Scotland won't be thinking about Eddie because his comments have been relatively tame.

You might say to me - wanting to beat England is enough but you want to instill a mentality which means you don't crumble under pressure.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 9:56 am

We say this every game

Eddie is always keen to take the media attention away from his team.
1) These comments still do that
2) Maybe there is less attention on the team anyway

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Post by Scottrf on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 10:25 am

The media and fans definitely put more weight on the linguistic jousting of coaches than I'm sure the opposition team does.

But at the same time, Eddie Jones did just end Patchell's international career.

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 10:31 am

Scottrf wrote:But at the same time, Eddie Jones did just end Patchell's international career.
Only because he out-wummed Gats
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Post by tigertattie on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 10:47 am

beshocked wrote:George Carlin

Disagree. I think if a coach says something inflammatory you can use them to motivate your team.

Well of course Scotland won't be thinking about Eddie because his comments have been relatively tame.

You might say to me - wanting to beat England is enough but you want to instill a mentality which means you don't crumble under pressure.

If Townsend or Scotland need to use Jones' ramblings as motivation to get up for an international match then Toonie and the team need to have a good long hard look at themselves.
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Post by beshocked on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 10:56 am

tigertattie wrote:
beshocked wrote:George Carlin

Disagree. I think if a coach says something inflammatory you can use them to motivate your team.

Well of course Scotland won't be thinking about Eddie because his comments have been relatively tame.

You might say to me - wanting to beat England is enough but you want to instill a mentality which means you don't crumble under pressure.

If Townsend or Scotland need to use Jones' ramblings as motivation to get up for an international match then Toonie and the team need to have a good long hard look at themselves.  

Not motivation to play but sometimes sometimes it's good to have some additional motivation to give you that little extra.

Jones' ramblings haven't been inflammatory enough to be utilised by Scotland or Townsend.

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Post by Tramptastic on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 11:02 am

beshocked wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
beshocked wrote:George Carlin

Disagree. I think if a coach says something inflammatory you can use them to motivate your team.

Well of course Scotland won't be thinking about Eddie because his comments have been relatively tame.

You might say to me - wanting to beat England is enough but you want to instill a mentality which means you don't crumble under pressure.

If Townsend or Scotland need to use Jones' ramblings as motivation to get up for an international match then Toonie and the team need to have a good long hard look at themselves.  

Not motivation to play but sometimes sometimes it's good to have some additional motivation to give you that little extra.

Jones' ramblings haven't been inflammatory enough to be utilised by Scotland or Townsend.

If you read the interview with Gordon Reid he claims they were too wound up last year. Cold Determination will suit scotland just fine

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Post by TrailApe on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 11:05 am

Cold Determination will suit scotland just fine

They are certainly going to get that, it's going to be freezing on the East Coast on Saturday.
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Post by George Carlin on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 11:32 am

tigertattie wrote:
beshocked wrote:George Carlin

Disagree. I think if a coach says something inflammatory you can use them to motivate your team.

Well of course Scotland won't be thinking about Eddie because his comments have been relatively tame.

You might say to me - wanting to beat England is enough but you want to instill a mentality which means you don't crumble under pressure.

If Townsend or Scotland need to use Jones' ramblings as motivation to get up for an international match then Toonie and the team need to have a good long hard look at themselves.  
Correct - that's my point. No Scotland side should ever need sledging from a media-aware international coach to get up for a Calcutta Cup match.

If what Reid says is correct about the Wales game, Townsend has already not been successful in getting his team in the right headspace once. He needs to earn his salary by ensuring that doesn't happen again. John Barclay's column on the BBC website is probably a better reflection of where the camp is.
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Post by SecretFly on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 11:43 am

Look.  It's England.  Townsend teaches a 'chaos' system - so the players are already hyped to keep the ball in motion and often times in chaotic ways to harry and scare the opposition....plus it's England again.
I don't think Scotland can do cold determination.  They'll listen to the tactics of perhaps being colder and more clinical and perhaps slyly restrained.  But they'll go onto the field, see England, quickly lose trust in a cold determination game plan to win and they'll start running around and throwing the 50/50s.  

They better be careful of intercepts, but I don't think this Scotland trust cold determination as the right model for them - it kills off too much of the opportunistic instincts they adapted to.  They have to play their game and try to make it effective.

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Post by ebop on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 11:50 am

Eddie Jones has Tourette’s. “Scotland will be a tough game this weekend..All Blacks... I think that guy Russell is a nifty little...All Blacks...player. We’re going to have to be....All Blacks...mindful of their kicking....All Blacks....game”
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 12:11 pm

Ranked number 1 side so yes in a lot of cases that's your benchmark to aim at.

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Post by George Carlin on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 12:15 pm

SecretFly wrote:I don't think Scotland can do cold determination.  
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Post by cascough on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 12:54 pm

I fancy Joseph for an intercept try tomorrow.

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Post by munkian on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 1:10 pm

I'd love Scotland to win but I think England will absolutely monster you in contact and the breakdown.
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Post by beshocked on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 1:12 pm

George Carlin wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
beshocked wrote:George Carlin

Disagree. I think if a coach says something inflammatory you can use them to motivate your team.

Well of course Scotland won't be thinking about Eddie because his comments have been relatively tame.

You might say to me - wanting to beat England is enough but you want to instill a mentality which means you don't crumble under pressure.

If Townsend or Scotland need to use Jones' ramblings as motivation to get up for an international match then Toonie and the team need to have a good long hard look at themselves.  
Correct - that's my point. No Scotland side should ever need sledging from a media-aware international coach to get up for a Calcutta Cup match.

If what Reid says is correct about the Wales game, Townsend has already not been successful in getting his team in the right headspace once. He needs to earn his salary by ensuring that doesn't happen again. John Barclay's column on the BBC website is probably a better reflection of where the camp is.

Yes perhaps but I feel like Scotland haven't quite got the preparation quite right yet. Particularly outside Murrayfield.

Mentally you've been on the backfoot vs England and Wales even before kickoff. That has to change.

Scotland need to get some fire from somewhere because they'll likely need a big performance to take down England.

In contrast England won't necessarily need to be at their best to win because they could potentially just pick off Scottish errors without hitting their stride if Scotland dish them out.

Scotland can be their own worst enemy - don't give opposition freebies. Make the opposition work harder.

I've talked about Scotland being too easy to score points against - you have to make it harder tomorrow to give yourself an opportunity of victory.

Wales lost to England but they gave themselves an opportunity of victory by keeping the points conceded to a low amount.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 1:13 pm

Are England that monstrous in contact and breakdown?

Maybe they are. Haven't seen the evidence too much this 6N series though.

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Post by Scottrf on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 1:18 pm

SecretFly wrote:Are England that monstrous in contact and breakdown?

Maybe they are.  Haven't seen the evidence too much this 6N series though.

No. We lost out to Samoa there.

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Post by beshocked on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 1:19 pm

It's all relative. If compared to Ireland and Wales perhaps not, but physically English forwards are generally more powerful than their Scottish counterparts.

Also England are well organised.

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Post by ebop on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 1:22 pm

Can Eddie Jones keep it together is the question? England are doing so well but are really just scraping by. His players look knackered and we have the big dance next year.
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Post by Tramptastic on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 1:22 pm

beshocked wrote:It's all relative. If compared to Ireland and Wales perhaps not, but physically English forwards are generally more powerful than their Scottish counterparts.

Also England are well organised.

Did you see Glasgow v Exeter?

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 1:25 pm

ebop wrote:Can Eddie Jones keep it together is the question? England are doing so well but are really just scraping by. His players look knackered and we have the big dance next year.

That game has been called off. Eddie is furious that his name wasn't on the invitation card and rather only "English coach" used instead. He was livid. His angry eye raised its eyebrow the highest it's ever been as his more calm eye twitched a little. Game called off.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 1:26 pm

Tramptastic wrote:
beshocked wrote:It's all relative. If compared to Ireland and Wales perhaps not, but physically English forwards are generally more powerful than their Scottish counterparts.

Also England are well organised.

Did you see Glasgow v Exeter?

You'll be told Exeter ain't Saracens.

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Post by ebop on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 1:27 pm

SecretFly wrote:
ebop wrote:Can Eddie Jones keep it together is the question? England are doing so well but are really just scraping by. His players look knackered and we have the big dance next year.

That game has been called off.  Eddie is furious that his name wasn't on the invitation card and rather only "English coach" used instead.  He was livid.  His angry eye raised its eyebrow the highest it's ever been as his more calm eye twitched a little.  Game called off.
Oh dear, he’ll be irate! Are there enough medical grade tissues in England to mop his forehead?
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Post by beshocked on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 1:33 pm

Tramptastic I did. I don't think you beat Exeter because of power though. That sin bin was the turning point.

To be fair Glasgow scored some cracking tries and made the most of it.

Secretfly well it's true. Exeter haven't exactly done that well in Europe just yet despite their success in the domestic league? Sounds remarkably similar to Glasgow....


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Post by SecretFly on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 1:35 pm

beshocked wrote:

Secretfly well it's true. Exeter haven't exactly done that well in Europe just yet despite their success in the domestic league? Sounds remarkably similar to Glasgow....


Oh I know it's true, shocked. I was just speeding up the process.

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Post by Tramptastic on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 1:39 pm

beshocked wrote:Tramptastic I did. I don't think you beat Exeter because of power though. That sin bin was the turning point.

To be fair Glasgow scored some cracking tries and made the most of it.

Secretfly well it's true. Exeter haven't exactly done that well in Europe just yet despite their success in the domestic league? Sounds remarkably similar to Glasgow....


My point with that is that if the scottish players can gain parity in terms of physicality as they did against a monstrous french side - also see glasgow v exeter, scotland v wales last year, scotland v ireland last year etc - they it comes down to ball playing skill which all of the scottish forwards have in abundunce (more so than england i'd suggest). It all hinges on whether barclay and watson can steal ball or not and if russell can do much with it. Every game scotland do well its from being faster to the breakdown than the opposition. They didnt do that against wales and Navidi mulched them, they did it in parts against france, we'll wait and see against england!

still england to win though

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 1:43 pm

England's forwards are pretty good ball in hand to be fair. That Glasgow exeter game, was it the one where exeter dominated up front but just kept.messing up chances in the 22?

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Post by Tramptastic on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 1:48 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:England's forwards are pretty good ball in hand to be fair. That Glasgow exeter game, was it the one where exeter dominated up front but just kept.messing up chances in the 22?

im not denying they are good ball in hand and its probably because I don't watch as much as the english league as I do the scottish team but I see more forward interplay in the scottish teams than in the english teams - im probably wrong like but as much as ive seen both teams play I think all the scottish forwards are capable of interplay between each other and in concert with the backs

probably wrong though like

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Post by nlpnlp on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 1:53 pm

According to the stats England's back row has a combined 37kgs weight and 21cm height advantage over their Scottish equivalents - admittedly most of the weight comes from Nathan Hughes.  Second rows match up almost identically.  So if England can manage the breakdown which by and large they have managed to do with the Eddie Jones game plan, then they should be able to bludgeon the plucky Scots into submission.  This apparent physical superiority should push Scotland into playing a more fast and lose game - throwing the 50:50 passes, etc - which England want them to and which allows them to pick up easy scores from Scotland errors.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 1:54 pm

Tramptastic wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:England's forwards are pretty good ball in hand to be fair. That Glasgow exeter game, was it the one where exeter dominated up front but just kept.messing up chances in the 22?

im not denying they are good ball in hand and its probably because I don't watch as much as the english league as I do the scottish team but I see more forward interplay in the scottish teams than in the english teams - im probably wrong like but as much as ive seen both teams play I think all the scottish forwards are capable of interplay between each other and in concert with the backs

probably wrong though like

Not wrong. Scotland have a lovely flow between forwards and backs. But I suppose that's where the balances come in at International. No team can have everything - so mobile, handy forwards that like mixing it with their peacock backs colleagues might have to give ground to more...well, ground hog type forwards in the opposition when the blunt chisel kinda stuff happens.

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Post by Tramptastic on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 1:55 pm

nlpnlp wrote:According to the stats England's back row has a combined 37kgs weight and 21cm height advantage over their Scottish equivalents - admittedly most of the weight comes from Nathan Hughes.  Second rows match up almost identically.  So if England can manage the breakdown which by and large they have managed to do with the Eddie Jones game plan, then they should be able to bludgeon the plucky Scots into submission.  This apparent physical superiority should push Scotland into playing a more fast and lose game - throwing the 50:50 passes, etc - which England want them to and which allows them to pick up easy scores from Scotland errors.

that'll be due to scotland playing two proper 7s and a fairly lightweight 8. Depends on speed to the breakdown. Generally the team on the scene first wins so it'll probably be a case of can englands incoming weightier players bludgeon scotlands limpits off the ball?

probably

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 1:56 pm

It varies through the pack of course tramp but I'd say overall were very good. Itoje and Launchbury have some of the best hands for locks. Hughes is ok. Robshaw very underrated. Hartley lawes and cole are average at best but then we have vunipola who I don't think it's unfair or controversial to say is the best loose head in the world at that. All that said with ball in hand.given the pack picked well.be looking to keep it tight go through you then wide through Farrell and ford. It's speed of foot the pack miss.

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Post by munkian on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 2:00 pm

Scottrf wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Are England that monstrous in contact and breakdown?

Maybe they are.  Haven't seen the evidence too much this 6N series though.

No. We lost out to Samoa there.



Lawes, Robshaw & Hughes are massive compared to Watson, Barclay and Wilson, especially when counter rucking.


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Post by Tramptastic on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 2:06 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It varies through the pack of course tramp but I'd say overall were very good. Itoje and Launchbury have some of the best hands for locks. Hughes is ok. Robshaw very underrated. Hartley lawes and cole are average at best but then we have vunipola who I don't think it's unfair or controversial to say is the best loose head in the world at that. All that said with ball in hand.given the pack picked well.be looking to keep it tight go through you then wide through Farrell and ford. It's speed of foot the pack miss.

Thats it exactly! its going to be a really good comparison of speed v raw strength, both teams can handle the ball incredibly well at times but its going to be interesting to see how owens refs the breakdown - if he's harsh with the jacklers the game will go to england, if he's harsh with the isolated ball carrier the game will go to scotland

I also think Robshaw is underrated, he just does the job, he's a grafter and teams with good grafters usually do well

I miss Kelly Brown for scotland for that reason alone, he just kept doing his thing through a match very efficiently!

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 2:09 pm

Owens is generally more relaxed at people stating on their feet at the breakdown so it's an area you can really hurt us.

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Post by Tattie Scones RRN on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 2:10 pm

For the avoidance of doubt.....

This is not 30 year old men playing against 12 year old boys - the size advantage is not that big a deal, if at all.

Watson may be 'smaller' than his opposite number, but when it comes to strength, the guy is a freak of nature.

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