6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

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6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by George Carlin on Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:01 am

First topic message reminder :

     
SCOTLAND v ENGLAND
24 February 2018
KO: 16:45 GMT
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on [Old BBC Colonial]

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

A. Head to Head

135 Played 135
42 Won 75
18 Drawn 18
75 Lost 42
1,162 Points 1,623

B. Recent Form 

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

6 February 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 15 to England

11 March 2017
Twickenham, London
61 – 21 to England

C. Teams

SCOTLAND 

Hogg, Seymour, Jones, Horne, Maitland, Russell, Laidlaw; Reid, McInally, Berghan, Gilchrist, J Gray, Barclay (capt), Watson, Wilson.

Replacements: Lawson, J Bhatti, WP Nel, Swinson, Denton, Price, Grigg, Kinghorn.

ENGLAND

Brown, Watson, Joseph, Farrell, May, Ford, Care; M Vunipola, Hartley (capt), Cole, Launchbury, Itoje, Lawes, Robshaw, Hughes.

Replacements: George, Marler, Williams, G Kruis (Saracens), Underhill, Wigglesworth, B Te'o, J Nowell.


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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:49 pm

Close 5. To Georges 13.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by lostinwales on Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:53 pm

munkian wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:What's his tackle to mins played ration in both the games?

And is that ratio based on the amount of time the other team has the ball, or just for the minutes on the pitch.

most of these stats are actually terrible measures of a player's effectiveness. Even if particular players end up with very high stats it may just be down to their team mates not pulling their weight, or they are being targeted. Tackle stats for Ford are always high because as he's the smallest guy on the pitch the opposition will always run down his channel.

I think Hartley made around 4 tackles v Wales

According to ESPN Hartley made 5 tackles to George's 13

Also 4 carries for 6 m vs 7 carries for 1.

Hartley's time on the pitch corresponded to when we were on the attack in the first half. JG was obviously a big part of the rearguard.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by mid_gen on Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:23 pm

Hazel Sapling wrote:
As it is, Daly to FB with Watson and May/Nowell around him is probably the best back 3 England can muster. Unfortunately for England there is Brown, who to me is not in their league, who Jones rates.

Daly's rapid, but he's not as good as Brown at the core competency of a 15 : fielding the high ball. He's also a powderpuff in contact in comparison.

Brown doesn't get sent off for tackling the opposition player in the air, because he's always the first player up and committed to the take. Borderline suicidal half the time, especially considering some of the beatings he's taken while doing it. He's carries hard back into the opposition, makes ground, and presents the ball well to get our attack moving.

Brown is a rock at the back of this England team. We've got plenty of class wingers, but Watson aside (who is better on the wing), none of them are even close to being a better 15 than him.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Poorfour on Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:56 pm

The point's been made a couple of times in the press in recent weeks that a lot of what Halfpenny, Kearney and Brown do is their positioning off the ball to reduce the opposition's options in attack.

1014's week 2 review on facebook has a discussion of the pendulum defence with a simple graphic showing how the fullback has to move in conjunction with the wingers to cover the space where the attack is heading. Brown usually has very good positioning - you don't often see the opposition kicking the ball to a place he can't contest it.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by beshocked on Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:26 pm

No, Jamie George generally makes more tackles than Hartley because his workrate is higher.

Well actually lostinwales, Jamie George was on the pitch when Hartley was off with concussion for about 10 minutes - part of England's best spell of play.

It's not just an one off - George generally makes more tackles. Especially when you factor in per minute.

Hartley is like 1 every 10 minutes. George 1 every 3 minutes


Hartley made the least of any starting forward.

One of the lowest vs Italy as well.

In terms of tackling, Hartley is one of the lowest in the entire squad so no he doesn't pull his weight defensively.



As for Mako, no wonder he was tired he made 17 tackles.

Simmonds put in a big shift defensively with 13.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:36 pm

How many rucks did he hit how quick to his feet. Be honest george hasn't impressed more than hartley this 6ns. If you were backing hookers for their work in the loose you should be backing 2 possibly 3 hookers ahead of george for their work. You would be if they played for saracens.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by beshocked on Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:51 pm

Depends what you look at. Set piece wise, Hartley has been superior at lineout time. Scrum - equal.

Around the park - George has been better.

Well, no because other hookers lack George's consistency.

If you think George is a bad thrower (I don't) he's clearly superior to LCD.

LCD is good around the park, true but his lineout throwing needs work.

If you could cut out the wumming, no 7 & 1/2 it would make you more bearable.


George hasn't impressed at lineout time. I can admit that but you never admit to the limitations of Hartley.


Actually you rarely if ever admit to limitations of your favoured players.

I can admit that Itoje has had a not particularly good 6 nations so far. Giving away too penalties and missing too many tackles.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by BamBam on Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:56 pm

Jamie George averages a tackle every 3 mins? So if anyone was to look at his tackle stats, they would see him making an average of 26 tackles per 80 mins?

Factoring in that he probably only plays 50 mins, thats an average of 16 per game - are you sure that is right

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by beshocked on Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:05 pm

Bambam in the minutes he's on the field yes.

Underhill did similar vs Wales. 13 tackles in 40 minutes I believe.


Talking about so far in the 6 nations -

Let's say George played for 25 minutes vs Italy - he made 8. 8 x 3 - 24.

Let's say George played vs Wales for 35 minutes he made 13 tackles - 13 x 3 - 39


Let's say Hartley played for 55 minutes vs Italy - that's 6. 6 x 10 - 60 So he's made slightly less than 1 per 10 minutes.

Vs Wales - 45 - 5 - that's 1 per 9 minutes.

Okay to be fair Hartley is more like 1 per 9 minutes.


Even we take into account that tackles per minute will go down the longer you are on the field - tripling someone's tackle per minute is a lot.

Also of course certain positions put in more tackles but almost all of Hartley's team mate have had higher tackle ratios.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by BamBam on Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:09 pm

I don't disagree with your logic. My counter to that would be, does George's tackle count stack up to that kind of level when he is playing as the starter for 50-60 mins

Obviously we don't have that information for internationals, but does it match that in the Aviva?

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by beshocked on Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:21 pm

Bambam not sure but George was putting himself about in the 10 minutes, Hartley was concussed (at the beginning of the game).

I know George has put in some big shifts defensively at club level.


According to this article - behind pay wall but it says George made 17 tackles vs NZ -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/06/25/made-tackles-controlled-possession-lions-blacks-10-key-stats/

2nd highest only behind Faletau.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/06/29/lions-vs-blacks-2nd-test-every-starter-two-teams-rated/jamie-george/



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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by TightHEAD on Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:46 pm

I have a bad feeling about this one.

But then again I always do and have done since the 90s

Let's just hope England wrap the game up by the 50 min mark so we can enjoy the game and watch the sweaty's socks run into the White Orcs.
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by cascough on Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:26 pm

beshocked wrote:No, Jamie George generally makes more tackles than Hartley because his workrate is higher.

Well actually lostinwales, Jamie George was on the pitch when Hartley was off with concussion for about 10 minutes - part of England's best spell of play.

It's not just an one off - George generally makes more tackles. Especially when you factor in per minute.


Perhaps you're being willfully ignorant to prove a point, perhaps not, but the point was put to you that Hartley was on the pitch more whilst England were attacking, and not when England had their backs to the wall.

You pointing out that George was covering Hartley's HIA whilst England were attacking doesn't change the point being made to you. When England are attacking, it doesn't matter who was on the pitch. If England are attacking, the tackles just aren't there to be made.

I think most would agree that George's workrate is superior to Hartley's, but it's not as black and white as you're making it. There's no need for you to try make the difference seem bigger than it really is.


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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:35 pm

*drunk george talk but no wumming.


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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:40 pm

*drunk boring george talk


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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:43 pm

*too much to drink boring repetitive hartley talk


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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RDW_Scotland on Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:47 pm

Over a page of this thread on George v Hartley - it's not often you see Scots struggling to get a word in!

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:49 pm

We should try a Launchbury vs grey argument.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Hazel Sapling on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:03 pm

Pretty easy at the moment. J Gray is out of form (relatively) and Launchbury has been the form lock of the 6 nations. Always better than Kruis.

George is better than Hartley in my view (i.e. eye test). Stats will always skew because one has 20-30 minutes to empty the tank vs 50-60. One gets to focus on the job and the other has to talk to the ref. Hartley offers a bit of attitude as well that Jones likes. Hartley has the issue that he does not come across as dynamic and will not be a lift in open play coming off the bench.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RDW_Scotland on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:07 pm

They're both different types of locks - they'd actually compliment each other well as a pair!

Jonny had his best game for a while against France - I think he could do with having to fight for his place a bit more to take his play to the next level. That has done Launchbury plenty good!

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:12 pm

Lots of talk of workrate etc...but its just wasted effort if its dumb workrate.

Robshaw gets labled a high workrate...but generally he comes across as intelligent on the pitch.ie picking the right rucks, very good positioning, clearing up poor ball etc.

Maybe Hartley does the same.

Jones and his team analyse everything so finely....

If you want work rate and tackling at hooker then as was mentioned above...go for Dunn!

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:26 pm

I did like the idea of Launchbury and grey as lions lions locks. Alas for one reason or another we didn't get it. Shame. Grey has a chance next time think Launchbury s may slip away.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by miaow on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:37 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
tigertattie wrote:I'd say Nowell and Watson are Englands best Wingers. Can't say I rate may that much.

I know folk will point out he scored two tries last weekend but those were the exception rather than the rule!


I do agree that Noel and Watson are two fine wingers for England. But May as scored some fine tries for England i do think though that Noel is a better finisher/off the bench type of player.

So  for me the wingers should be May Watson. Noel on the bench.


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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by miaow on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:56 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:They're both different types of locks - they'd actually compliment each other well as a pair!

JG: You deserved to tour with the Lions.
JL: No, you deserved to tour with the Lions...

(sorry)

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by yappysnap on Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:22 am

miaow wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:
tigertattie wrote:I'd say Nowell and Watson are Englands best Wingers. Can't say I rate may that much.

I know folk will point out he scored two tries last weekend but those were the exception rather than the rule!


I do agree that Noel and Watson are two fine wingers for England. But May as scored some fine tries for England i do think though that Noel is a better finisher/off the bench type of player.

So  for me the wingers should be May Watson. Noel on the bench.


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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by yappysnap on Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:23 am

Please no more hooker chat. I swear it's the same arguments repeated for what feels like a lifetime now.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by R!skysports on Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:08 am

yappysnap wrote:Please no more hooker chat. I swear it's the same arguments repeated for what feels like a lifetime now.

Should you tip?

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by yappysnap on Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:31 am

Always tip good service, that's a rule to live by.



Don't reward mediocrity though....

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by LondonTiger on Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:19 am

Anything more than the tip and it costs more.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by TightHEAD on Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:27 am

Lets hope the Sweaty's don't see this!!!!!!

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/six-nations-england-twickenham-stadium-rugby-live-stream-open-training
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by IanBru on Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:29 am

Don't worry, Hagia Sophia has been invited to attend that training session by the RFU, and I've hidden a GoPro in her handbag.
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by beshocked on Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:51 am

cascough wrote:
beshocked wrote:No, Jamie George generally makes more tackles than Hartley because his workrate is higher.

Well actually lostinwales, Jamie George was on the pitch when Hartley was off with concussion for about 10 minutes - part of England's best spell of play.

It's not just an one off - George generally makes more tackles. Especially when you factor in per minute.


Perhaps you're being willfully ignorant to prove a point, perhaps not, but the point was put to you that Hartley was on the pitch more whilst England were attacking, and not when England had their backs to the wall.

You pointing out that George was covering Hartley's HIA whilst England were attacking doesn't change the point being made to you. When England are attacking, it doesn't matter who was on the pitch. If England are attacking, the tackles just aren't there to be made.

I think most would agree that George's workrate is superior to Hartley's, but it's not as black and white as you're making it. There's no need for you to try make the difference seem bigger than it really is.


That's not the point I am making. It doesn't change that Hartley has one of the lowest tackle rates of any player - attacking or not.

When you have to put in a defensive shift it's good to have players who will put in more tackles.

The difference is significant but again it's not just Hartley vs George.

It's Hartley's workrate compared to his team mates.


You might think oh well - it doesn't matter - Hartley's team mates can make tackles instead.

Defensively England have been strong and that's because most of the England side have been putting in good defensive shifts.

Hartley needs to stop being a bystander defensively.


When you compare Hartley to Guirado.... well the contrast in tackling couldn't be more stark.... why compare another rival hooker? Well it just shows how off the pace, Hartley is defensively.


Fortunately for England, hooker is not an area of strength for Scotland.


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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by TightHEAD on Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:02 am

Its time to start the Lions Test hooker and give him a run of games without fear of being dropped, unless he really does balls it up.
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by beshocked on Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:19 am

For balance I should add that Itoje needs to up his game. He's been below his normal standard.

Also George has to make sure he nails his lineouts.

Surely we all want England to win - that means standards have to be maintained.


I think Scotland need to sort out their defence too but if their defence stays like it has in the last year then England shouldn't have that many problems breaching it.


Robshaw,Underhill,Hughes should probably be our backrow vs Scotland.


I have to say I'd drop Itoje to the bench. I want him to rediscover his form. I can't preach about wanting in form players and ignore his lack of it.


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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by TightHEAD on Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:21 am

Itoje needs a break or to be on the bench and bring some impact when he comes on for 20-30mins.
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by cascough on Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:26 am

beshocked wrote:
cascough wrote:
beshocked wrote:No, Jamie George generally makes more tackles than Hartley because his workrate is higher.

Well actually lostinwales, Jamie George was on the pitch when Hartley was off with concussion for about 10 minutes - part of England's best spell of play.

It's not just an one off - George generally makes more tackles. Especially when you factor in per minute.


Perhaps you're being willfully ignorant to prove a point, perhaps not, but the point was put to you that Hartley was on the pitch more whilst England were attacking, and not when England had their backs to the wall.

You pointing out that George was covering Hartley's HIA whilst England were attacking doesn't change the point being made to you. When England are attacking, it doesn't matter who was on the pitch. If England are attacking, the tackles just aren't there to be made.

I think most would agree that George's workrate is superior to Hartley's, but it's not as black and white as you're making it. There's no need for you to try make the difference seem bigger than it really is.


That's not the point I am making. It doesn't change that Hartley has one of the lowest tackle rates of any player - attacking or not.

When you have to put in a defensive shift it's good to have players who will put in more tackles.

The difference is significant but again it's not just Hartley vs George.

It's Hartley's workrate compared to his team mates.


You might think oh well - it doesn't matter - Hartley's team mates can make tackles instead.

Defensively England have been strong and that's because most of the England side have been putting in good defensive shifts.

Hartley needs to stop being a bystander defensively.


When you compare Hartley to Guirado.... well the contrast in tackling couldn't be more stark.... why compare another rival hooker? Well it just shows how off the pace, Hartley is defensively.


Fortunately for England, hooker is not an area of strength for Scotland.


I'm REALLY not interested in debating the merits of Hartley or George with you, again. I was just pointing out the flaw in your logic, which you've ignored.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:28 am

I'm not actually that worried about this one. Watching Scotland this 6N, I think we'll win relatively easy, 10pts or so.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by beshocked on Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:44 am

cascough wrote:
beshocked wrote:
cascough wrote:
beshocked wrote:No, Jamie George generally makes more tackles than Hartley because his workrate is higher.

Well actually lostinwales, Jamie George was on the pitch when Hartley was off with concussion for about 10 minutes - part of England's best spell of play.

It's not just an one off - George generally makes more tackles. Especially when you factor in per minute.


Perhaps you're being willfully ignorant to prove a point, perhaps not, but the point was put to you that Hartley was on the pitch more whilst England were attacking, and not when England had their backs to the wall.

You pointing out that George was covering Hartley's HIA whilst England were attacking doesn't change the point being made to you. When England are attacking, it doesn't matter who was on the pitch. If England are attacking, the tackles just aren't there to be made.

I think most would agree that George's workrate is superior to Hartley's, but it's not as black and white as you're making it. There's no need for you to try make the difference seem bigger than it really is.


That's not the point I am making. It doesn't change that Hartley has one of the lowest tackle rates of any player - attacking or not.

When you have to put in a defensive shift it's good to have players who will put in more tackles.

The difference is significant but again it's not just Hartley vs George.

It's Hartley's workrate compared to his team mates.


You might think oh well - it doesn't matter - Hartley's team mates can make tackles instead.

Defensively England have been strong and that's because most of the England side have been putting in good defensive shifts.

Hartley needs to stop being a bystander defensively.


When you compare Hartley to Guirado.... well the contrast in tackling couldn't be more stark.... why compare another rival hooker? Well it just shows how off the pace, Hartley is defensively.


Fortunately for England, hooker is not an area of strength for Scotland.


I'm REALLY not interested in debating the merits of Hartley or George with you, again. I was just pointing out the flaw in your logic, which you've ignored.

cascough yes I realise Hartley was on the pitch longer and yes I realise that when a team are attacking, tackles aren't made but every single player on the pitch at the time is in the same boat and yet Hartley is still the lowest.

Hartley just as every other England player has to contribute defensively.

I don't mind it when you defend Hartley with a reasonable argument - like he's doing his job well enough in the set piece but please don't pretend he's pulling his weight defensively.He's not.

England's defensive shift vs Wales saw us over the line but Hartley didn't contribute as much as others.


Tighthead I agree, Itoje doesn't seem right at the moment. His own performances levels are down.


Can't believe I am saying this but at the moment Launchbury is outperforming Itoje.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by TrailApe on Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:37 am

Please no more hooker chat. I swear it's the same arguments repeated for what feels like a lifetime now.

I HEARTILY CONCUR!

Proverbs 26:11
As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly



no names, no pack-drill, but if the cap fits...


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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:09 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not actually that worried about this one. Watching Scotland this 6N, I think we'll win relatively easy, 10pts or so.

It is hard to argue against this. However it is also hard to argue against this:

SimonofSurrey wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Only silverware Scotland are getting this year.

Stop it. If you're English, I'm ashamed. The Calcutta Cup usually fails to go to script, especially at Murrayfield. There's a real contest in prospect two weeks from now. Respect, please.

I really cannot call this one. The last time the teams met, I genuinely thought we could win I was very very very wrong. This year I genuinely think we'll get pumped. Perhaps I'm wrong this time.

One thing is for sure, a lot of pundits have said that the game against France showed that we are devoid of inspiration again and couldn't conjure much in attack. Whilst this may be true France gave away 6 penalties whilst trying to contain our attack, pretty much all of them in the 22 or certainly in the 10m line to make them kickable.

We can't really be blamed for the infringements of another team robbing us of attacking oppertunities. You also can't blame Scotland for taking the points when you consider we were behind for 90% of the match.

Scotland's attack is still potent, especially with Jones playing at 13 instead of 12, and in Horne at inside centre you have essentially another play maker who is quick of thought and action when going forward.

As Beshocked and others have stated it is in defence that we may struggle, but still, 2 weeks of work between games it's not too much of a stretch of the imagination to expect improvements. The tries leaked against Wales were Scottish errors including turnovers, interceptions and against France it was 1 on 1 missed tackles. Whereas the tries conceded against England last year were due to England's sublime tactics and flawless execution.

In short, I don't think the Scotland defence is as bad as some are making out. It's certainly not as good as England's or Ireland's defence, but it is somewhat better than the rabble that some are making out.
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Scottrf on Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:11 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:In short, I don't think the Scotland defence is as bad as some are making out. It's certainly not as good as England's or Ireland's defence, but it is somewhat better than the rabble that some are making out.

Forgetting the Wales game you concede 20 points per game. It's not horrendous considering you're an attacking team but it does need you needing to score a lot.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by cascough on Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:15 pm

beshocked wrote:
cascough wrote:
beshocked wrote:
cascough wrote:
beshocked wrote:No, Jamie George generally makes more tackles than Hartley because his workrate is higher.

Well actually lostinwales, Jamie George was on the pitch when Hartley was off with concussion for about 10 minutes - part of England's best spell of play.

It's not just an one off - George generally makes more tackles. Especially when you factor in per minute.


Perhaps you're being willfully ignorant to prove a point, perhaps not, but the point was put to you that Hartley was on the pitch more whilst England were attacking, and not when England had their backs to the wall.

You pointing out that George was covering Hartley's HIA whilst England were attacking doesn't change the point being made to you. When England are attacking, it doesn't matter who was on the pitch. If England are attacking, the tackles just aren't there to be made.

I think most would agree that George's workrate is superior to Hartley's, but it's not as black and white as you're making it. There's no need for you to try make the difference seem bigger than it really is.


That's not the point I am making. It doesn't change that Hartley has one of the lowest tackle rates of any player - attacking or not.

When you have to put in a defensive shift it's good to have players who will put in more tackles.

The difference is significant but again it's not just Hartley vs George.

It's Hartley's workrate compared to his team mates.


You might think oh well - it doesn't matter - Hartley's team mates can make tackles instead.

Defensively England have been strong and that's because most of the England side have been putting in good defensive shifts.

Hartley needs to stop being a bystander defensively.


When you compare Hartley to Guirado.... well the contrast in tackling couldn't be more stark.... why compare another rival hooker? Well it just shows how off the pace, Hartley is defensively.


Fortunately for England, hooker is not an area of strength for Scotland.


I'm REALLY not interested in debating the merits of Hartley or George with you, again. I was just pointing out the flaw in your logic, which you've ignored.

cascough yes I realise Hartley was on the pitch longer and yes I realise that when a team are attacking, tackles aren't made but every single player on the pitch at the time is in the same boat and yet Hartley is still the lowest.

Hartley just as every other England player has to contribute defensively.

I don't mind it when you defend Hartley with a reasonable argument - like he's doing his job well enough in the set piece but please don't pretend he's pulling his weight defensively.He's not.


England's defensive shift vs Wales saw us over the line but Hartley didn't contribute as much as others.


Tighthead I agree, Itoje doesn't seem right at the moment. His own performances levels are down.


Can't believe I am saying this but at the moment Launchbury is outperforming Itoje.

I'm not defending Hartley, nor am I pretending anything about his play. Do you actually read anyone elses posts?

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:28 pm

Can you guys talk about something other than English hookers?!!

Scottrf wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:In short, I don't think the Scotland defence is as bad as some are making out. It's certainly not as good as England's or Ireland's defence, but it is somewhat better than the rabble that some are making out.

Forgetting the Wales game you concede 20 points per game. It's not horrendous considering you're an attacking team but it does need you needing to score a lot.

Aherm moving on. I'm not making excuses but the teams that we have played are good sides. It's no shame shipping 20+ points to the likes of Australia, Ireland, Wales, England and New Zealand. Granted Fiji and Samoa have scored against some of our more experimental sides but the last time we played a team below us in the World rankings in a tournament environment we nilled them.

Speaking from someone who bravely supported Scotland through the Graeme Morrison, Nick De Luca, Andy Henderson and Sean Lamont defensive lump era. I'd gladly submit points to teams if it means we can have the attacking flair of guys like Jones, Horne, Taylor, Bennet etc. Trust me, Scotland fans had their fill of gym monkey centres who couldn't pass or cut angles.

Defensive structure will solidify in time, and when we don't have so many injuries. Its worth pointing out we have been without Dunbar and Taylor all tournament and Matt Scott and Mark Bennet are returning from long term injury.
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Scottrf on Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:37 pm

It's no 'shame' but Englands last games against Australia, Ireland and Wales we have conceded 6, 13 and 6. Leaves you needing an extra couple of tries and means no game is really out of reach until the final whistle.

Russell gets criticised for forcing things, but if you're guaranteed to concede 20 every game I can see why he feels like he needs to.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:41 pm

No disrespect meant obviously Radge, it's just a feeling that Scotland don't really offer a big threat to us (opposite to how I felt against Wales).

Scotland do have an ever improving attack, but our defence is one of the best around. I fancy you to get at least two tries.

You're defence isn't great though and I think we'll catch you on the counter with our pace out wide. I hope we can attack your scrum too although it's held up quite well so far.

I'm going 14-24 to England.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by TrailApe on Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:51 pm

No disrespect meant obviously Radge, it's just a feeling that Scotland don't really offer a big threat to us (opposite to how I felt against Wales).

I don't know - I always get worried about playing our Northern cousins up in Edinburra.

I'm telling you one thing - I'm glad they never made a decent fist of having three professional sides. If they had a bit more depth and had a 10 who was a mix of mercurial and steady headed when needed they could cause teams a lot more problems more consistently.

Just hope they all get the Poopie or some bug, I'm not looking for a good game I'm looking for a win.

(blame my cynical outlook from living north of the Wall)
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:54 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:No disrespect meant obviously Radge, it's just a feeling that Scotland don't really offer a big threat to us (opposite to how I felt against Wales).

Scotland do have an ever improving attack, but our defence is one of the best around. I fancy you to get at least two tries.

You're defence isn't great though and I think we'll catch you on the counter with our pace out wide. I hope we can attack your scrum too although it's held up quite well so far.

I'm going 14-24 to England.

Hard to argue, although we got 3 against you last time around, I also think we have been the only side to score that amount of tries against you for some time (not including the heavily depleted unit that played against Argentina in the summer). The fact you shipped some tries to Italy fills me with confidence too.

We do need to get our defence sorted out wide though or just make sure we nail those one on one tackles. We haven't been great this year and I hope that issue can be resloved for next weekend. Johnny May will be  Drool at how much space we gave Teddy Thomas.

As for our Scrum holding up, noone is more surprised by that than me. With Nel and Fagerson back training our depth is picking up. The fact that Gordy Reid and Simon Berghen did so well against France who put Ireland under all sorts of pressure means I'm not as afraid of the English scrum as I would be. I think we need to keep our best on the pitch until Cole gets subbed.

If I may be so bold as to say, it is with Owen Farrell that I think the game will be won or lost. IMO he is the best 12 in the world (I dare someone to name someone better), his vision, passing, defence etc make him the perfect package. If he is injured as some have suggedted I reckon the chances of us winning go up by at least 50%.
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by TrailApe on Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:04 pm

Hard to argue, although we got 3 against you last time around

I've just had a conversation with a bloke who knows somebody who talked to a ex ref who said that Reid's try was disallowed in a recent top secret World Rugby meeting as his initial placement of the ball was against the ankle of one of the Greys who hand wandered around the back of the maul offside.

FACT!

We'll let you have the other two though (grudgingly)


Last edited by TrailApe on Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : premature ejeculation)
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:09 pm

TrailApe wrote:
Hard to argue, although we got 3 against you last time around

I've just had a conversation with a bloke who knows somebody who talked to a ex ref who said that Reid's try was disallowed in a recent World Rugby meeting as his initial placement of the ball was against the ankle of one of the Greys who hand wandered around the back of the maul offside.

FACT!

We'll let you have the other two though (grudgingly)

I think the IRB and Allain Roland should release a statement. Whistle
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Scottrf on Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:10 pm

Scottrf wrote:
tigertattie wrote:I'd say Nowell and Watson are Englands best Wingers. Can't say I rate may that much.

I know folk will point out he scored two tries last weekend but those were the exception rather than the rule!

Well,

Player 1: 1 try every 2.58 games internationally.
Player 2: 1 try every 3.29 games internationally.

For one of these a try is the exception rather than the rule, the other is the most exciting attacking player in the Northern Hemisphere. I'll let you figure out the players.

Because the quiz was ignored. 1. Is Jonny May. 2 is Stuart Hogg.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

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