6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

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6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by George Carlin on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 11:01 am

First topic message reminder :

     
SCOTLAND v ENGLAND
24 February 2018
KO: 16:45 GMT
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on [Old BBC Colonial]

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

A. Head to Head

135 Played 135
42 Won 75
18 Drawn 18
75 Lost 42
1,162 Points 1,623

B. Recent Form 

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

6 February 2016
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
9 – 15 to England

11 March 2017
Twickenham, London
61 – 21 to England

C. Teams

SCOTLAND 

Hogg, Seymour, Jones, Horne, Maitland, Russell, Laidlaw; Reid, McInally, Berghan, Gilchrist, J Gray, Barclay (capt), Watson, Wilson.

Replacements: Lawson, J Bhatti, WP Nel, Swinson, Denton, Price, Grigg, Kinghorn.

ENGLAND

Brown, Watson, Joseph, Farrell, May, Ford, Care; M Vunipola, Hartley (capt), Cole, Launchbury, Itoje, Lawes, Robshaw, Hughes.

Replacements: George, Marler, Williams, G Kruis (Saracens), Underhill, Wigglesworth, B Te'o, J Nowell.


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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by SecretFly on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 11:03 am

For some reason, England weren't expecting to be hit by such high intensity accuracy all over the field by Scotland in that first half.  They maybe did too much mental calculations before the game:  "Wales thrashed Scotland, we beat Wales, we always beat Scotland.  We'll have too much for them in every department".

If that was the mood and if that's the mood Eddie allowed or encouraged then yep, it was a real big mistake by him.  You have to have confidence of course.  But this Scotland side - with that mayhem but accurate game of theirs - you have to be mentally ready to back up the confidence.  England weren't.  They were spooked and kinda fell apart in that first half.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 11:15 am

Also, we won a staggering 10 turnovers? Shocked
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by TJ on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 11:19 am

For me two things remain the key
1) scotland set up for breakdown tunovers correctly using speed and a chop tackle followed by a jackal
2) no one in the England teams seems to be able to change playing patterns on the feild. After Half time England stopped kicking the ball back to Scotland . Why could they not do this on the feild? I suggest the lack oa a guy like Barclay who is a thinking rugby player

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by EnglishReign on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 11:22 am

Haven’t commented on this game yet but just wanted to say, congrats Scotland! I was overly harsh after you lost to Wales but since that game you’ve come back with a good win against France and absolutely hammered my team yesterday!

Obviously disappointed but it’s great to see Scottish rugby back on track.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 12:19 pm

Also... Laugh

https://twitter.com/RugbyLAD7/status/967726589042741254
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by BamBam on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 12:26 pm

For the first time in my life, I was glad to have my mother in law's incessant natter distracting me from a rugby match!

Massive congrats to Scotland and the guys on here, completely deserved and we can have no complaints. I watched Barclay destroy our breakdown in the first 20 mins and realised this had the potential to go very badly

Hopefully EJ will take lessons from this, but that's for discussion over the next couple of weeks.

Have a hair of the dog morning guinness on me lads, I expect some of you will need it!

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Scottrf on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 12:38 pm

Woodward in the paper Saturday morning:"England can't be stopped". Oops!

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by SecretFly on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 12:45 pm

Woodward will of course say the result proves him right when you take into account the coefficient of effort plus learning curve divided by natural ability and infinite squad number potential multiplied by dodgy ref and Eddie playing 'lame duck' before meeting the ABs!

England going according to plan says Woodward. Never doubt the Guru!

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 1:14 pm

Never enjoy seeing England lose but we were turned over fair and square. Congratulations to Scotland.

Scotland ended up beating us in pretty much the same kind of way that other sides got the better of Lancaster's team, and, to some extent, Johnson's.

That's not to say Scotland copied anyone else. They have their own style, and a back row which posed different problems to the likes of Wales & Ireland, but just as troublesome for England. Always think we were lucky Ross Rennie couldn't stay fit for longer in his career, or he might have tormented England in previous years.

When it goes wrong for England, it's usually a combination of poor breakdown work and poor discipline. Still, I was underwhelmed by our kicking game. We kicked away a lot of ball against Ireland last year, and seemed to do the same yesterday. Jonny May is our fastest chaser, and he did contest some kicks but a lot of seemed to get run back with little pressure.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RDW_Scotland on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 1:21 pm

https://twitter.com/GLove39/status/967749315463733248

Oh Greig! Laugh

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by George Carlin on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 1:49 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:https://twitter.com/GLove39/status/967749315463733248

Oh Greig! Laugh
Good job Graham - Gregor Townsend commented on your thread!
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by cascough on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 1:58 pm

I've a few thoughts on the Ref and England's deficiencies, but nothing should take away from how well Scotland played. Fully deserved the win.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by TJ on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 2:16 pm

No doubt Owens approach to the breakdown favoured scotland - he gives time for a contest and is not as picky as some. However no major calls were wrong imo and that of Greenwood. Remember England did get a couple of turnovers themselves and also Watson got penalised for no clear release so it was not all one way.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by SecretFly on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 2:20 pm

Owens is a great ref and a fair man.... but Boy has he got some kit under his shirt; like a fecking cyborg.  Is it just me or does he have more of it than other refs?  Oh maybe his book of witticisms are in there too.  Forgot that - sorry, carry on OK

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RDW_Scotland on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 2:21 pm

George Carlin wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:https://twitter.com/GLove39/status/967749315463733248

Oh Greig! Laugh
Good job Graham - Gregor Townsend commented on your thread!

A parody Townsend!

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RossAnderson on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 3:30 pm

Brilliant result and performance accross the pitch.

As many have said turnovers were key. The resulting penalties gave us a great platform and stopped England generating momentum. Our lineout struggled in the 2nd half which was a big reason Scotland struggled (compared to the first half) and missed out on the bp.

If i mentioned all the standouts id be here all day so instead ill mention a player not many others have. Until the last 2 games i was convinced peter horne was NOT international quality. He has proved me wrong and looked very competent (aside from butchering an overlap in 2nd half). Would not have him 1st choice if everyone fit but a great option to have.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by TJ on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 3:37 pm

I think Horne has a great rugby brain and has the knack of making others around him play better.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by awayandbileyerheid on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 6:10 pm

SimonofSurrey wrote:

PS: can someone please educate a minority of supporters in the ground not to boo the away kicker, it ain't big and it ain't clever.  

I think it's because of the amount o time he takes.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by awayandbileyerheid on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 6:16 pm

quinsforever wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:So the TMO has seen the eye gouge from the Scottish 8 but not brought it to the attention of the ref?

Brown and Watson have been incompetent.  England's pack is too cumbersome with three locks and a big number 8.

Eye gouge? Not really

Fingers are in the eye area making a grabbing motion. It's a ban by the letter of the law for reckless play (minimum) ergo it's a red card.
it's one of those that might get cited, but there really wasnt anything in it.

I suppose it's difficult to know where to put your hands when someone is choking you with BOTH there hands

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by awayandbileyerheid on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 6:18 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Lets face it we could send a 2nd string team north of the border and win. So let's pick one containing players not in with a chance of playing in this years 6nations.

I'll kick it off.

Freddie Burns at 10.


laughing

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by awayandbileyerheid on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 6:26 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:So the TMO has seen the eye gouge from the Scottish 8 but not brought it to the attention of the ref?

Brown and Watson have been incompetent.  England's pack is too cumbersome with three locks and a big number 8.

Eh? Hughes made contact with Wilson's eyes?

That's what I saw as well, not sure there was any intention but there looked contact.

Wilson's right hand makes a grabbing motion towards Hughes right eye socket. Doubt it's malicious but there's a duty of care so any contact with the eye area is an offence. We've seen one harsh ones before but if you watch the replay it's cut and dry.

Not much comment on here about where BOTH Hughes' hands were at the time.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by SecretFly on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 6:28 pm

awayandbileyerheid wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Lets face it we could send a 2nd string team north of the border and win. So let's pick one containing players not in with a chance of playing in this years 6nations.

I'll kick it off.

Freddie Burns at 10.


laughing

That's not so funny. Tight was probably spot on. The 2nd string with Tight himself as 10 might have won that game. The 1st didn't get chance.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by nathan on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 6:31 pm

awayandbileyerheid wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:So the TMO has seen the eye gouge from the Scottish 8 but not brought it to the attention of the ref?

Brown and Watson have been incompetent.  England's pack is too cumbersome with three locks and a big number 8.

Eh? Hughes made contact with Wilson's eyes?

That's what I saw as well, not sure there was any intention but there looked contact.

Wilson's right hand makes a grabbing motion towards Hughes right eye socket. Doubt it's malicious but there's a duty of care so any contact with the eye area is an offence. We've seen one harsh ones before but if you watch the replay it's cut and dry.

Not much comment on here about where BOTH Hughes' hands were at the time.

That was the reaction. Owens should of gone to the TMO Jnstead of teeing himself up for a "smart quote"

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by TJ on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 6:40 pm

Hughes had his hand on Grants throat before Grant was clutching at his face. Hughes was also pinning Grant down. Hughes made no complaint about being gouged. I think it one of those that looks worse than it was. Grant should be cited but will hopefully be cleared as he didn't actually get the eye area but near to it and he was flailing around trying to protect himself.

Owens should not have called for the TMO - he had no need to as no complaint of foul play was made. the TMO could have drawn his attention to it if he thought it warranted it

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RDW_Scotland on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 7:16 pm

TJ wrote:Hughes had his hand on Grants throat before Grant was clutching at his face.  Hughes was also pinning Grant down.  Hughes made no complaint about being gouged.  I think it one of those that looks worse than it was.  Grant should be cited but will hopefully be cleared as he didn't actually get the eye area but near to it and he was flailing around trying to protect himself.

Owens should not have called for the TMO - he had no need to as no complaint of foul play was made.  the TMO could have drawn his attention to it if he thought it warranted it

By Grant you mean Wilson I take it?

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by whocares on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 7:27 pm

Good to see that our local Glove is now on French « news » :
https://www.rugbyrama.fr/rugby/6-nations/2018/insolite-les-ecossais-ont-tres-bien-fete-leur-victoire_sto6654503/story.shtml


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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by TJ on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 7:28 pm

O ffs - I keep mixing up Ryan Grant and Ryan Wilson. Still a bit fuzzy headed after last night. the second bottle of bubbly was a mistake

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RDW_Scotland on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 7:29 pm

TJ wrote:O ffs - I keep mixing up Ryan Grant and Ryan Wilson.  Still a bit fuzzy headed after last night.  the second bottle of bubbly was a mistake

To be fair both are partial to a scrap in a kebab shop!

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by LondonTiger on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 7:38 pm

The better team on the day won't be game.

Everything else is merely a side show.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by carpet baboon on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 7:40 pm

Is Farrell starting to slip back into his old I have to be a hard man, I'm better than you all, ways?
I know you need a certain amount of arrogance but he seems to be going back to his gobby high hits stroppy mode which took away a lot from his game, as he was constantly trying to prove how much better he is than everyone, rather than just playing the game.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by kingelderfield on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 7:44 pm

7&1/2 that is stupid comment. EJ is a top top coach and there's no need to change him. However facts are facts.
1 his back row selection strategy does not suit the faster new laws and leaves us vulnerable to the modern quicker ruck
2 Our kicking strategy robs us of the opportunity to play 'heads up' 'what's in front of you rugby' and so we do not accrue the confidence such initiative provides and conversely, we become inhibited and so restrict our potency.
3 It is historical fact that EJ is a coach that delivers immediate returns however over time those returns diminish. eg. Ozy sacked him and later RSA hired him short term to back up their coaching staff.
Anyway yesterday's defeat is no reason to spit the dummy though you're reactionary response to my post is all I would expect from you.
The fact I watch Wasps nearly every week and enjoy their heads up highly skilled modern attacking style, informs me that we do have the ability to play 15 man rugby in this country and it is not just the preserve of the AB's. England 03 were a case in point!


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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 8:17 pm

It's not long since people were claiming the new rules had killed the poacher but yeah. Your facts are more like opinion really and it goes back to you wanting more wasps players.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by kingelderfield on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 8:21 pm

And your a numpty wum. Go dig a hole and once you've learnt to see further than the end of your nose, jump in it!

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by TJ on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 8:22 pm

7.5 - that was the consensus in England but not elsewhere. the start of this season everyone in the ap was not contesting rucks, the pro 14 teams just carried on contesting but contesting quicker and smarter. the outcome of that is what we saw yesterday

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 8:22 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Is Farrell starting to slip back into his old I have to be a hard man, I'm better than you all, ways?
I know you need a certain amount of arrogance but he seems to be going back to his gobby high hits stroppy mode which took away a lot from his game, as he was constantly trying to prove how much better he is than everyone, rather than just playing the game.

I don't think so. Farrell was by far the best player for you yesterday, followed closely by Robshaw who did everything he could to try and stem the turnovers. Farrell at least grabbed a try and did his best to defend that tricky 12 channel that Jones attacked with impunity. A bit of credit has to go to Hogg who despite not cutting into the line was lurking behind the 10-12 channel and it drew a lot of attention, that created gaps for Jones to exploit.

Farrell for me is still the best 12 in the world, but faced with that attacking display there wasn't much he could do.

Remarkable stat from the game England made it into the Scottish 22 ten times.

They were turned over 6 times.
Gave away 3 penalties.
Scored a converted try.

In short, not very good. A bad day at the office but I would throw the baby out with the bathwater. The backrow needs to be a bit lighter and mobile, and Jones needs to stop trying to force square pegs into round holes. I know England have fantastic locks, but I can't believe a country with as many players can't unearth a real breakdown terrier.
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by TJ on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 8:23 pm

NOw now children. this has been a very nice thread marked by gracious behaviour fro the England fans - don't spoil it by bickering amongst yourselves Wink

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 8:29 pm

Don't resort to insults king.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 8:30 pm

And if you remember tj I was one of the ones saying er no it hasn't! Jones obviously thought he could blast the Scottish pack away again. Obviously didn't this time and it was an area I was worried about starting both hughes and Lawes.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 8:36 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And if you remember tj I was one of the ones saying er no it hasn't! Jones obviously thought he could blast the Scottish pack away again. Obviously didn't this time and it was an area I was worried about starting both hughes and Lawes.

To be fair, just about every Scot on here saw that English pack and feared a repeat of Twickenham last year.

However I think Scotland over the year got quicker and perhaps England are a bit slower. Barclay was like superman, I have no idea how he got to so many rucks and won so many turnovers. The second Scottish try (one of the best Murrayfield has ever seen) all started with a phenomenal Barclay turnover.
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 8:40 pm

It never looked promising to me to see 1 lawes and Robshaw as the flankers as I don't think it's a great partnership and I don't think lawes is good enough at 6. The first couple of games or 1 and a half were tempered by simmonds at 8 who is seriously quick Hughes coming back from injury isn't though he clearly offers other benefits. Hey ho it's a back row created hough injury more than anything.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 8:46 pm

But you have to understand how brutally effective the smash the small Scottish backrow tactic was at Twickenham last year? You can't really blame Jones for trying to emulate what he did last year...

Like I said I think Scotland have settled better into their system and how fast they recycle and how utterly devestating we can be over the ball. I'm really eager to see how we get on against Ireland in that department in a couple of weeks.
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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 8:49 pm

Yeah I'm sure that's what he was going for. I understand it didn't agree with it but want some perspective to a defeat. It's not the end of the world and it certainly doesn't mean we need all the changes in players or style.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 9:11 pm

I agree 7& 1/2 This loss is not the end of the world....it could be  the best thing that as happend to us. Do you think that England was starting to get a bit complacent recently.

Begining to think they was unbeatable, they all ways find a way too win in the end.
May be this loss will have  them the realise they are not invincible, that if the take teams for granted they will lose...Lessons to be learnt.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by TJ on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 9:25 pm

To me its more fundamental than that. Its not understanding that all the power and bulk in the world does not matter if it means you are a second too late. YOu miss the tackle or get turned over. Its playing last year or the year before game and its not having someone in the team with the nous to change tactics on the pitch ( or is it over prescriptive coaching?)

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by cascough on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 9:52 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:And if you remember tj I was one of the ones saying er no it hasn't! Jones obviously thought he could blast the Scottish pack away again. Obviously didn't this time and it was an area I was worried about starting both hughes and Lawes.

To be fair, just about every Scot on here saw that English pack and feared a repeat of Twickenham last year.

However I think Scotland over the year got quicker and perhaps England are a bit slower. Barclay was like superman, I have no idea how he got to so many rucks and won so many turnovers. The second Scottish try (one of the best Murrayfield has ever seen) all started with a phenomenal Barclay turnover.

Because he was allowed to get away with what England were pinged for.

I want to be really careful when I make this point. I'm not trying to make excuses for England (they were poor all on their own) nor am I trying to take away from Scotland (they were very impressive and fully deserved the win.). I am however questioning the consistency of Owens' decisions. The phenomenal Barclay turnover you refer too, there are pictures taken from the replay that show him with his hands flat on the floor in front of the ball. Now I didn't see this in real time, but I did see it on the replay. Therefore I can understand why Owens didn't give it. There was an England one (can't remember which now. I'm not ready to re-watch just yet) that was similarly innocuous in real time, was pinged, then the replay showed the infringement.

I think Scotland quite clearly were more intense than England and attacked the breakdown, and this led to Owens and his famous "feel for the game" reffing on just that (ie a feeling) and missing technical penalties (ie what was actually happening). The end result is an inconsistent
application of the laws, which not only is incredibly frustrating to watch as a fan, but it must leave the players in a real puzzle as to what they can and can't do. I actually don't mind England getting pinged for what they got pinged for, I was getting very frustrated seeing us get isolated in contact then pinged for holding on. I do mind when I see Scotland getting isolated and getting seemingly an age to hold on before Owens then turns round and says "Ruck formed leave it now". At the end of the day, you can look at nearly every breakdown and see multiple penalties one way or the other. The best you can hope for is consistency. Forget England, they were poor and didn't deserve the win. But I thought Owens was very poor too.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:00 pm

The comment that we don't change on the pitch tj doesn't fit with what's happened under jones though. If you look at this game in isolation perhaps but how do you change something that's predominantly through style of player?
Lessons to be learnt definitely maj. I prefer a different make up of our back row as I've said pretty much constantly since last year but to a point it has been forced.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by catchweight on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:02 pm

The home team will usually get the breaks with the ref which is a substantial advantage in rugby where the ref has such a major influece on games. One of the reasons its so hard to win away from home.


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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by Scottrf on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:19 pm

cascough wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:And if you remember tj I was one of the ones saying er no it hasn't! Jones obviously thought he could blast the Scottish pack away again. Obviously didn't this time and it was an area I was worried about starting both hughes and Lawes.

To be fair, just about every Scot on here saw that English pack and feared a repeat of Twickenham last year.

However I think Scotland over the year got quicker and perhaps England are a bit slower. Barclay was like superman, I have no idea how he got to so many rucks and won so many turnovers. The second Scottish try (one of the best Murrayfield has ever seen) all started with a phenomenal Barclay turnover.

Because he was allowed to get away with what England were pinged for.

I want to be really careful when I make this point. I'm not trying to make excuses for England (they were poor all on their own) nor am I trying to take away from Scotland (they were very impressive and fully deserved the win.). I am however questioning the consistency of Owens' decisions. The phenomenal Barclay turnover you refer too, there are pictures taken from the replay that show him with his hands flat on the floor in front of the ball. Now I didn't see this in real time, but I did see it on the replay. Therefore I can understand why Owens didn't give it. There was an England one (can't remember which now. I'm not ready to re-watch just yet) that was similarly innocuous in real time, was pinged, then the replay showed the infringement.

I think Scotland quite clearly were more intense than England and attacked the breakdown, and this led to Owens and his famous "feel for the game" reffing on just that (ie a feeling) and missing technical penalties (ie what was actually happening). The end result is an inconsistent
application of the laws, which not only is incredibly frustrating to watch as a fan, but it must leave the players in a real puzzle as to what they can and can't do. I actually don't mind England getting pinged for what they got pinged for, I was getting very frustrated seeing us get isolated in contact then pinged for holding on. I do mind when I see Scotland getting isolated and getting seemingly an age to hold on before Owens then turns round and says "Ruck formed leave it now". At the end of the day, you can look at nearly every breakdown and see multiple penalties one way or the other. The best you can hope for is consistency. Forget England, they were poor and didn't deserve the win. But I thought Owens was very poor too.

Not sure if it's the same incident but in one occasion the player joined from the side, propped himself up on the floor and we get pinged for holding on while the ball is rolling out the back!

(Apologies for huge nested quote)

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by carpet baboon on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 10:51 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Is Farrell starting to slip back into his old I have to be a hard man, I'm better than you all, ways?
I know you need a certain amount of arrogance but he seems to be going back to his gobby high hits stroppy mode which took away a lot from his game, as he was constantly trying to prove how much better he is than everyone, rather than just playing the game.

I don't think so. Farrell was by far the best player for you yesterday, followed closely by Robshaw who did everything he could to try and stem the turnovers. Farrell at least grabbed a try and did his best to defend that tricky 12 channel that Jones attacked with impunity. A bit of credit has to go to Hogg who despite not cutting into the line was lurking behind the 10-12 channel and it drew a lot of attention, that created gaps for Jones to exploit.

Farrell for me is still the best 12 in the world, but faced with that attacking display there wasn't much he could do.

Remarkable stat from the game England made it into the Scottish 22 ten times.

They were turned over 6 times.
Gave away 3 penalties.
Scored a converted try.

In short, not very good. A bad day at the office but I would throw the baby out with the bathwater. The backrow needs to be a bit lighter and mobile, and Jones needs to stop trying to force square pegs into round holes. I know England have fantastic locks, but I can't believe a country with as many players can't unearth a real breakdown terrier.

Radge I'm Irish. He wasn't playing for me

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

Post by yappysnap on Sun 25 Feb 2018, 11:25 pm

Well done Scotland! I have been going on YouTube to watch these games when they're available but may skip this one...

From the sounds of it we need a slightly more balanced pack. Id probably move one of the locks to the bench and then start Robshaw and Underhill for the next game. Guys covering a position are just never going to be as natural as a player who's always played that position.

That'd be my only change, unless maybe starting Marler and benching Vunipola.

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Re: 6N 2018: Scotland v England, 24 February

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