Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

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Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Noble-Surfer on Tue 20 Feb 2018, 12:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

So, Wales have gone with Dan Biggar, Liam Williams & Leigh Halfpenny for the game against Ireland. George North & Gareth Anscombe drop to the bench, and Rhys Patchell & Josh Adams drop out of the match day squad. Not bad decisions in my opinion, though I think I might have had Patchell on the bench over Anscombe... and possibly switched Halfpenny & Williams- I just think Williams offers more threat from fullback than Halfpenny does.

Wales Team:
Halfpenny (Scarlets); L Williams (Saracens), S Williams (Scarlets), Parkes (Scarlets), S Evans (Scarlets); Biggar (Ospreys), G Davies (Scarlets); R Evans (Scarlets), Owens (Scarlets), Lee (Scarlets), Hill (Dragons), AW Jones (Ospreys capt), Shingler (Scarlets), Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Moriarty (Gloucester).

Replacements:
Dee (Dragons), W Jones (Scarlets), Francis (Exeter Chiefs), B Davies (Ospreys), Tipuric (Ospreys), A Davies (Scarlets), Anscombe (Blues), North (Northampton).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43127349

Ireland Team:
Kearney; Earls, Farrell, Aki, Stockdale; Sexton, Murray; Healy, Best (capt), Porter; James Ryan, Toner; O'Mahony, Leavy, Stander.

Replacements: Cronin, McGrath, John Ryan, Roux, Conan, Marmion, Carbery, McFadden.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43152956


Last edited by Noble-Surfer on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 2:53 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Ireland squad added)

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by SecretFly on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 3:20 pm

...... I use it..................... all the.................time?

What do ............................it mean...................... at the deepest level?

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by BamBam on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 3:21 pm

You (being you), illustrate my point perfectly Very Happy

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by RiscaGame on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 3:46 pm

carpet baboon wrote:You know what. Forget this mutual respect balls.
Ireland will destroy Wales.
Biggar was playing gash before he had 5 weeks out and injured so can't see him being anywhere near his best, and with him between unfamiliar 9 and 12 who's natural game is not the game he plays I see a nightmare day for Dan.
You pack while good will not be good enough, to many of our guys are under pressure for the starting spot to play anything below amazing.
Our backs will be on fire and leave your poor Welsh boys crying into there leek embroidered hankies

Sorry Welsh men, this weekend is not your weekend. Prepare to be manshamed

Oh heck. I’d best tell the missus to hoover behind the sofa before I get home for the weekend, so I can hide behind it. Yikes

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by carpet baboon on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 5:00 pm

RiscaGame wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:You know what. Forget this mutual respect balls.
Ireland will destroy Wales.
Biggar was playing gash before he had 5 weeks out and injured so can't see him being anywhere near his best, and with him between unfamiliar 9 and 12 who's natural game is not the game he plays I see a nightmare day for Dan.
You pack while good will not be good enough, to many of our guys are under pressure for the starting spot to play anything below amazing.
Our backs will be on fire and leave your poor Welsh boys crying into there leek embroidered hankies

Sorry Welsh men, this weekend is not your weekend. Prepare to be manshamed

Oh heck. I’d best tell the missus to hoover behind the sofa before I get home for the weekend, so I can hide behind it. Yikes

It's ok, think of me as a public service announcement. I'm here to help

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 5:21 pm

I'm not seriously a 606v2 a pop culture reference am I?
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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by SecretFly on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 6:56 pm

Radge... shut it. Just let me be your agent. I'm trying to make you famous. Any publicity will do in the early stages - positive or negative.

Oh I only take a 33% cut from all profits.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 7:26 pm

SecretFly wrote:Radge... shut it.  Just let me be your agent.  I'm trying to make you famous.  Any publicity will do in the early stages - positive or negative.

Oh I only take a 33% cut from all profits.

20%

If Laidlaw's agent can get him 500k from Clermont, you need to up your game my cariad
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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by SecretFly on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 7:31 pm


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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 7:45 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Radge... shut it.  Just let me be your agent.  I'm trying to make you famous.  Any publicity will do in the early stages - positive or negative.

Oh I only take a 33% cut from all profits.

20%

If Laidlaw's agent can get him 500k from Clermont, you need to up your game my cariad

Just give him a tenner - Fly doesn’t understand figures.....

Besides after you deduct all your expenses, 33% of bupkes is the same as 20% of buttons.

Mind you, if I’d been your agent, a young fellah like you I’d have had your name up,in lights...

The Radge Effect

Just sayin’.
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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Engine#4 on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 10:05 pm

Ireland's poor recent record against Wales is mainly down to their complete impotency vs the Welsh defence. Phase after phase hammering away and going nowhere. We need to bring something different because Wales will cross the line.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by SecretFly on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:14 pm

Engine#4 wrote:Ireland's poor recent record against Wales is mainly down to their complete impotency vs the Welsh defence. Phase after phase hammering away and going nowhere. We need to bring something different because Wales will cross the line.

It's interesting to look back at the encounters since Joe took over.  This was a quick enough scan.  Any errors please by all means point them out to me:

The sides have met 6 times since 2014 (Joe's first 6N); ----- 4 Six Nations tournaments and 2 pre-WC warm up games in 2015.

Wales have won 3, Ireland have won 2.  1 game was a draw.  Not exactly an appalling record for Joe Schmidt's team so far.

In those four years Wales have got a haul of 101 points against Ireland.  Ireland have a haul of 112 points against Wales.  Not that poor there either.

In those four years Wales have scored 9 tries against Ireland.  Ireland have scored 10 tries against Wales.  Not that poor there either.

In those four years, the biggest winning margin by Wales was 13 points.  Ireland's biggest winning margin was 23 points.
Adding all winning margins together - Wales' 3 wins and Ireland's 2 wins - Wales come out with an overall winning margin of 26 from 3 wins.  Ireland emerge with a overall winning margin of 37 from two wins.

In those four years Wales won once in Dublin in 2015, Ireland won once in Cardiff in 2015. Both games were outside the 6N framework and were those warm-up WC games.

So it seems that 16-16 draw in Dublin is the culprit on which all evidence rests for this considered poor recent record against Wales?

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Engine#4 on Wed 21 Feb 2018, 11:46 pm

Ah but how recent is recent? Pre-world cup SchmIreland vs GWales has been bludgeoned out my memory by wave after wave of one-out runners. Starting from zero. Accelerating to a trot. Breaking on the Welsh red rocks.

We've had one Murray try in two years and it has been awful to watch.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by SecretFly on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 12:11 am

Laugh Nice description of our unique attacking ways!

Exactly though.... how recent is recent? Wink

Well you have to have more than one year and one game to assess 'recent'.  Gatland has been settled in, locked and loaded at the Wales helm for over 10 years now.  I think the last four years of Joe is a nice slice of 'recent' when it comes to Ireland v Wales contests in that context of those ten Gatland years.

We're as blunt as bejaysus as an attacking team, to be sure to be sure, Engline.... but even looking at the last two years then and that one blasted try against Wales.  So be it - a slice of 'recent' it is.  But maybe it's our turn to hit back on the try count tally this year?  We didn't get to third in the world by luck, and our overall 6N try tally from even the last two years combined is still four tries more than scintillating Wales - 29 to 25.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by eirebilly on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 6:18 am

This game depends on which tactic Schmidt uses. He will either send Ireland out to get a lead of 3-5 points in the first 20 and defend defend defend or he will send Ireland out to get a 3-5 point lead after 50mins then defend defend defend.
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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 8:18 am

I see Davis G has said he sees no reason wales can't get a bonus points win on Saturday. Good lad.
I'm all for respecting the opposition but it's good to see players backing themselves and there team out loud.

He's wrong and we will destroy Wales but I love his attitude

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Engine#4 on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 8:50 am

I agree. I admire the Welsh confidence and why shouldn't they be confident? The fact that their fly half has never been quite at Sextons level and hasn't been even close for club or country in years has never held them back before.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by TightHEAD on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 9:31 am

No wonder the Welsh public get so down when they lose a 6 Nations game, as the pre-game confidence levels is just ridiculous!

Fair play to them for being so upbeat though, they must make fantastic workers who are so motivated at the start of everyday. thumbsup
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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by munkian on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 9:45 am

Engine#4 wrote:I agree. I admire the Welsh confidence and why shouldn't they be confident? The fact that their fly half has never been quite at Sextons level and hasn't been even close for club or country in years has never held them back before.

Except Biggar was in better form than Sexton for the Lions and has beaten him when playing for the Ospreys many a time...
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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Scottrf on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 9:46 am

munkian wrote:
Engine#4 wrote:I agree. I admire the Welsh confidence and why shouldn't they be confident? The fact that their fly half has never been quite at Sextons level and hasn't been even close for club or country in years has never held them back before.

Except Biggar was in better form than Sexton for the Lions and has beaten him when playing for the Ospreys many a time...

The Wales head coach disagreed.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 9:47 am

munkian wrote:
Engine#4 wrote:I agree. I admire the Welsh confidence and why shouldn't they be confident? The fact that their fly half has never been quite at Sextons level and hasn't been even close for club or country in years has never held them back before.

Except Biggar was in better form than Sexton for the Lions and has beaten him when playing for the Ospreys many a time...

I like Biggar, think he is a great player but I don't think he is as good as Sexton.

Lets face it Sexton is the most accomplished OH in Britain and Ireland in 50 years. Only Wilko with his world cup medal has managed to achieve something that Sexton has not.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by munkian on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 9:59 am

Scottrf wrote:
munkian wrote:
Engine#4 wrote:I agree. I admire the Welsh confidence and why shouldn't they be confident? The fact that their fly half has never been quite at Sextons level and hasn't been even close for club or country in years has never held them back before.

Except Biggar was in better form than Sexton for the Lions and has beaten him when playing for the Ospreys many a time...

The Wales head coach disagreed.

Can you imagine the wailing if Gatland had picked the Welsh 10 ?
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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Scottrf on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 10:01 am

munkian wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
munkian wrote:
Engine#4 wrote:I agree. I admire the Welsh confidence and why shouldn't they be confident? The fact that their fly half has never been quite at Sextons level and hasn't been even close for club or country in years has never held them back before.

Except Biggar was in better form than Sexton for the Lions and has beaten him when playing for the Ospreys many a time...

The Wales head coach disagreed.

Can you imagine the wailing if Gatland had picked the Welsh 10  ?

Do you think he would care? Didn't affect his other decisions. I would agree Biggar looked better btw, but he did play the easier games.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by SecretFly on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 10:12 am

munkian wrote:
Engine#4 wrote:I agree. I admire the Welsh confidence and why shouldn't they be confident? The fact that their fly half has never been quite at Sextons level and hasn't been even close for club or country in years has never held them back before.

Except Biggar was in better form than Sexton for the Lions and has beaten him when playing for the Ospreys many a time...

But Sexton didn't need the Lions to beat New Zealand. All he needed was a bunch of chancers who can't run, pass, offload or shimmy and 40 points to 29. Wink

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by SecretFly on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 10:16 am

eirebilly wrote:This game depends on which tactic Schmidt uses. He will either send Ireland out to get a lead of 3-5 points in the first 20 and defend defend defend or he will send Ireland out to get a 3-5 point lead after 50mins then defend defend defend.

At this stage in the contest, I'll take either. It won't be good for the heart but if the trickle-in win comes from either scenario then I'll be pretty damn happy. The Welsh lads.......... they're good.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Scottrf on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 10:19 am

SecretFly wrote:
eirebilly wrote:This game depends on which tactic Schmidt uses. He will either send Ireland out to get a lead of 3-5 points in the first 20 and defend defend defend or he will send Ireland out to get a 3-5 point lead after 50mins then defend defend defend.

At this stage in the contest, I'll take either.  It won't be good for the heart but if the trickle-in win comes from either scenario then I'll be pretty damn happy.  The Welsh lads.......... they're good.

Only team to beat England in the second half under Jones...and twice. Hanging on might be hard.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 10:26 am

Scottrf wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
eirebilly wrote:This game depends on which tactic Schmidt uses. He will either send Ireland out to get a lead of 3-5 points in the first 20 and defend defend defend or he will send Ireland out to get a 3-5 point lead after 50mins then defend defend defend.

At this stage in the contest, I'll take either.  It won't be good for the heart but if the trickle-in win comes from either scenario then I'll be pretty damn happy.  The Welsh lads.......... they're good.

Only team to beat England in the second half under Jones...and twice. Hanging on might be hard.

Did England not hang on on both those occasions to win? Winning the second half counts for very little if you don't win.

Where Wales have won against Ireland lately they usually have managed to build an early lead and hang on themselves.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Scottrf on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 10:30 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Did England not hang on on both those occasions to win? Winning the second half counts for very little if you don't win.

Where Wales have won against Ireland lately they usually have managed to build an early lead and hang on themselves.

Very true it counts for nothing but shows they are a fit team, and strong mentally.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by SecretFly on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 10:31 am

Scottrf wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
eirebilly wrote:This game depends on which tactic Schmidt uses. He will either send Ireland out to get a lead of 3-5 points in the first 20 and defend defend defend or he will send Ireland out to get a 3-5 point lead after 50mins then defend defend defend.

At this stage in the contest, I'll take either.  It won't be good for the heart but if the trickle-in win comes from either scenario then I'll be pretty damn happy.  The Welsh lads.......... they're good.

Only team to beat England in the second half under Jones...and twice. Hanging on might be hard.

We're the masters at hanging on.  England are only novices at that kind of game.  
If it's a win with a lot of hanging on...I'll take it.  
Obviously, if it's a loss, then I'm not going to high fiving anyone in my immediate circle after.  
Actually, my real preference is of course a seismic knock-out on wily old Wales, a punch they can't stop and one that keeps hitting through the 80. Wink  That's what I'd ask for if I was greedy - and I am.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by SecretFly on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 10:34 am

Scottrf wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Did England not hang on on both those occasions to win? Winning the second half counts for very little if you don't win.

Where Wales have won against Ireland lately they usually have managed to build an early lead and hang on themselves.

Very true it counts for nothing but shows they are a fit team, and strong mentally.

Their fitness is their main strength.  Always has been.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 10:41 am

SecretFly wrote:
Scottrf wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Did England not hang on on both those occasions to win? Winning the second half counts for very little if you don't win.

Where Wales have won against Ireland lately they usually have managed to build an early lead and hang on themselves.

Very true it counts for nothing but shows they are a fit team, and strong mentally.

Their fitness is their main strength.  Always has been.

I'm not convinced they are any fitter than the Ireland squad. Statistically Ireland run and pass more than any other side. Sexton kicks out of hand less than any other outhalf.

For me they have plenty of strengths. Lately they tend to have one of the strongest set pieces in the six nations particularly the lineout.

Tactically they are good too. They have had a lot of success against Ireland using chop tackles. Their goal kicking tends to be traditionally very strong.

They also have the most experienced squad in the 6 nations so they aren't going to be easily bullied or tricked and tend to be quite resilient and tough.

No glaring weaknesses really.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by rapidsnowman on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 10:51 am

I don't like:
1. 1/2p is back, because he doesn't miss
2. Liam williams is back, because he is the most dangerous running back in the 6 nations IMHO
3. North and Tipuric are going to be unleashed from the bench when legs are starting to get tired.

Also worried losing Henshaw's aggression is going to very negatively impact our defence.

Wish I had some of carpet baboon's confidence!

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by SecretFly on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 10:52 am

It's the one thing I always credit Gatland with.  He has always upped Welsh player fitness during his periods with them.  He has always had them arriving at International much more finely tuned than when they are at their respective Regions.

That MIGHT be changing now and Welsh Regions might be improving with in-house training but Gatland has often remarked in his time the work he needed to do to get his players up to speed for International.  This he has always done with ruthless efficiency.  I admire that drive in him.  His players might not always be the best on paper but they'll never be outmatched for fitness and the ability to play hard past the 80 minutes.

It's much easier to carry out the game plans when you have the puff and mental alertness to do so, right to the end.


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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 10:53 am

I think all the teams are banging on about their fitness at the moment. (Well maybe not the French or Italians).

Personally I felt that Wales fitness let them down at Twickenham at the last. Their failure to execute the basic skills properly in the last 10 minutes to me smacked of tiredness from the amount of defensive work they had done. This made it pretty easy for England to defend.

Note I am not doubting the fitness of the Wales squad, but do not feel it is any better than England's now. Ireland certainly demonstrated the clearness of thought that suggests good fitness in the multiple phases before Sexton's drop goal.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Scottrf on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 10:58 am

LondonTiger wrote:I think all the teams are banging on about their fitness at the moment. (Well maybe not the French or Italians).

Personally I felt that Wales fitness let them down at Twickenham at the last. Their failure to execute the basic skills properly in the last 10 minutes to me smacked of tiredness from the amount of defensive work they had done. This made it pretty easy for England to defend.

Note I am not doubting the fitness of the Wales squad, but do not feel it is any better than England's now. Ireland certainly demonstrated the clearness of thought that suggests good fitness in the multiple phases before Sexton's drop goal.

Wales made 182 tackles, Ireland made 98. I wouldn't say that's suggestive of worse fitness even if they were more tired.

But I probably would agree, it's not much of a differentiator between these teams.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 10:59 am

SecretFly wrote:It's the one thing I always credit Gatland with.  He has always upped Welsh player fitness during his periods with them.  He has always had them arriving at International much more finely tuned than when they are at their respective Regions.

That MIGHT be changing now and Welsh Regions might be improving with in-house training but Gatland has often remarked in his time the work he needed to do to get his players up to speed for International.  This he has always done with ruthless efficiency.  I admire that drive in him.  His players might not always be the best on paper but they'll never be outmatched for fitness and the ability to play hard past the 80 minutes.

It's much easier to carry out the game plans when you have the puff and mental alertness to do so, right to the end.


That's PR from Gatland. They aren't any fitter than the Irish for sure.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by SecretFly on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 11:00 am

LondonTiger wrote:I think all the teams are banging on about their fitness at the moment. (Well maybe not the French or Italians).

Personally I felt that Wales fitness let them down at Twickenham at the last. Their failure to execute the basic skills properly in the last 10 minutes to me smacked of tiredness from the amount of defensive work they had done. This made it pretty easy for England to defend.

Note I am not doubting the fitness of the Wales squad, but do not feel it is any better than England's now. Ireland certainly demonstrated the clearness of thought that suggests good fitness in the multiple phases before Sexton's drop goal.

Not so much superior fitness  but not beneath the standards of England or Ireland or New Zealand etc.  That's my point.  Gatland realises the need for long term oxygen levels kept high so that late game thinking remains clear and late game impulses have the legs to carry them out.
Another point about fitness is the use of it.  Ireland uses their fitness levels in different ways.  Keeping phases going is a different version of fitness to the kind that Wales might train for and use - ie. rapid fire continuous sprint work/counter attacking ability with little recovery periods.  There is fitness but you have to mould the fitness to your game plans.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by SecretFly on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 11:02 am

Collapse2005 wrote:


That's PR from Gatland. They aren't any fitter than the Irish for sure.[/quote]

It's not PR. It was real. I've seen it in operation. I've seen players that play for their regions become different beasts at International. It was there in evidence.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 11:02 am

Scottrf wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I think all the teams are banging on about their fitness at the moment. (Well maybe not the French or Italians).

Personally I felt that Wales fitness let them down at Twickenham at the last. Their failure to execute the basic skills properly in the last 10 minutes to me smacked of tiredness from the amount of defensive work they had done. This made it pretty easy for England to defend.

Note I am not doubting the fitness of the Wales squad, but do not feel it is any better than England's now. Ireland certainly demonstrated the clearness of thought that suggests good fitness in the multiple phases before Sexton's drop goal.

Wales made 182 tackles, Ireland made 98. I wouldn't say that's suggestive of worse fitness even if they were more tired.

But I probably would agree, it's not much of a differentiator between these teams.

Wasn't trying to suggest any superior fitness on either side, though see ho wit looked that way. I cannot really comment on Ireland's fitness as not seen them putting in a massive defensive shift recently, but do not feel that fitness will be the deciding factor, rather how much work each side is forced to go through.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 11:07 am

Scottrf wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:I think all the teams are banging on about their fitness at the moment. (Well maybe not the French or Italians).

Personally I felt that Wales fitness let them down at Twickenham at the last. Their failure to execute the basic skills properly in the last 10 minutes to me smacked of tiredness from the amount of defensive work they had done. This made it pretty easy for England to defend.

Note I am not doubting the fitness of the Wales squad, but do not feel it is any better than England's now. Ireland certainly demonstrated the clearness of thought that suggests good fitness in the multiple phases before Sexton's drop goal.

Wales made 182 tackles, Ireland made 98. I wouldn't say that's suggestive of worse fitness even if they were more tired.

But I probably would agree, it's not much of a differentiator between these teams.

France made about 300 tackles which means that Ireland were running most of their possession. I think that is a good indicator of fitness. Ireland do statistically run and pass more than all other teams.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by rodders on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 11:12 am

SecretFly wrote:

It's not PR.  It was real.  I've seen it in operation.  I've seen players that play for their regions become different beasts at International.  It was there in evidence.

I don't believe they are fitter per se but you are correct that Gatland really gets his players peaked for the 6N and RWC.

Even the Autumn Internationals he uses to condition his players I believe, using the 4 tests to really grind them.

I'm not Gats biggest fan but he's done a good job with the Lions on that aspect too, getting them super fit in a short space of time.

The Irish players are very fit also but I believe the IRFU and branches have different priorities in terms of the AI's and ERC performances where the key players maybe are maintained a bit more to perform over the season rather than one tournament.
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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 11:15 am

SecretFly wrote:

It's not PR.  It was real.  I've seen it in operation.  I've seen players that play for their regions become different beasts at International.  It was there in evidence.

Yes it is. AWJ seems to be permanently out of breath. Warburton, Halfpenny, Biggar, North along with half the team are constantly injured.

Our forwards seem fitter to me that Wales' forwards particularly the front 5.


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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by SecretFly on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 11:15 am

Collapse2005 wrote:

France made about 300 tackles which means that Ireland were running most of their possession. I think that is a good indicator of fitness. Ireland do statistically run and pass more than all other teams.

Yes, but Ireland might be better off using that 'running' energy to create spaces to get through.  We don't use our 'running' stats to stretch teams and slice through.  We just use them to phase play the life out of the ball in a possession-means-defending kind of way.  We're not trying to find gaps or create them as much as we're just running to sap the energy of our opponents.  But we have our close games because that style has limited returns against highly fit teams at the highest level.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by rodders on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 11:19 am

I'm actually going to add to that previous post. I don't think the fitness side and getting the players to peak physically is Schmidt's strong point as a coach.

For example the preparation they used for the 2015 RWC, whilst a nice idea, to peak late and not do a camp, it didn't quite work.

I think it is interesting that for this 6N Ireland broke tradition and did the warm weather camp instead of training here.

I wonder if that is Schmidt learning from past experience or is it a sign of Andy Farrell's growing influence?
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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by SecretFly on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 11:21 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

It's not PR.  It was real.  I've seen it in operation.  I've seen players that play for their regions become different beasts at International.  It was there in evidence.

Yes it is. AWJ seems to be permanently out of breath. Warburton, Halfpenny, Biggar, North along with half the team are constantly injured.

Our forwards seem fitter to me that Wales' forwards particularly the front 5.

That's almost proof itself that Gatland pushes his players hard in camp.... for his wished for gains in performance. Warburton becomes an animal at International level. He doesn't exactly mimic that at Regional level.
Now, am I saying Gatland cares about his players? No. He's an ambitious coach. He wants to win. He has his program for winning. It involves pushing his players hard to up their performance levels. Does he care too much if they break down regularly because of the extra stress? No, I wouldn't think he overly cares. He's got his performance out of them when they're fit. He'll drive the replacements then.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by SecretFly on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 11:25 am

rodders wrote:I'm actually going to add to that previous post. I don't think the fitness side and getting the players to peak physically is Schmidt's strong point as a coach.

For example the preparation they used for the 2015 RWC, whilst a nice idea, to peak late and not do a camp, it didn't quite work.

I think it is interesting that for this 6N Ireland broke tradition and did the warm weather camp instead of training here.

I wonder if that is Schmidt learning from past experience or is it a sign of Andy Farrell's growing influence?

OK

Now we're getting it. Our fitness is one dimensional. We were sliced to pieces by Argentina because we'd had our WC in terms of puff. Our players looked way off the pace needed to compete at the very top and the very end game of that competition. We blunder buss ourselves silly for a few games and then wave bye bye as the sides that can recover quicker move on.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 11:33 am

SecretFly wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:

It's not PR.  It was real.  I've seen it in operation.  I've seen players that play for their regions become different beasts at International.  It was there in evidence.

Yes it is. AWJ seems to be permanently out of breath. Warburton, Halfpenny, Biggar, North along with half the team are constantly injured.

Our forwards seem fitter to me that Wales' forwards particularly the front 5.

That's almost proof itself that Gatland pushes his players hard in camp.... for his wished for gains in performance.  Warburton becomes an animal at International level.  He doesn't exactly mimic that at Regional level.
Now, am I saying Gatland cares about his players?  No.  He's an ambitious coach.  He wants to win.  He has his program for winning.  It involves pushing his players hard to up their performance levels.  Does he care too much if they break down regularly because of the extra stress?  No, I wouldn't think he overly cares.  He's got his performance out of them when they're fit.  He'll drive the replacements then.

That sounds more like motivation than fitness. I don't think there is a whole lot an international coach can do to improve fitness in the short space of time they have. Match fitness surely isn't good if your player are getting lot of injuries. Fitness isn't necessarily about doing more training its about doing the right training which includes the right rest and nutrition.

Gatland loves to talk a good game but the reality is there isn't much evidence that the Welsh are any fitter than the Irish.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Scottrf on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 11:35 am

Collapse2005 wrote:That sounds more like motivation than fitness. I don't think there is a whole lot an international coach can do to improve fitness in the short space of time they have.

What they can do is demand high standards to get into the squad.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 11:39 am

SecretFly wrote:
rodders wrote:I'm actually going to add to that previous post. I don't think the fitness side and getting the players to peak physically is Schmidt's strong point as a coach.

For example the preparation they used for the 2015 RWC, whilst a nice idea, to peak late and not do a camp, it didn't quite work.

I think it is interesting that for this 6N Ireland broke tradition and did the warm weather camp instead of training here.

I wonder if that is Schmidt learning from past experience or is it a sign of Andy Farrell's growing influence?

OK

Now we're getting it.  Our fitness is one dimensional.  We were sliced to pieces by Argentina because we'd had our WC in terms of puff.  Our players looked way off the pace needed to compete at the very top and the very end game of that competition.  We blunder buss ourselves silly for a few games and then wave bye bye as the sides that can recover quicker move on.

Fitness against Argentina was only a factor because we had the absolute shoite beaten out of us by France the weekend before. No team is immune to that. We lost the game however because we lost too many key players in the pack and Argentina absolutely dominated us at the breakdown. Everything good Argentina did began with their dominance at the breakdown.


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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 11:40 am

Scottrf wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:That sounds more like motivation than fitness. I don't think there is a whole lot an international coach can do to improve fitness in the short space of time they have.

What they can do is demand high standards to get into the squad.

I agree.

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Re: Ireland v Wales 24/02/2018 14:15

Post by eirebilly on Thu 22 Feb 2018, 11:57 am

Collapse2005 wrote:

I like Biggar, think he is a great player but I don't think he is as good as Sexton.

Lets face it Sexton is the most accomplished OH in Britain and Ireland in 50 years. Only Wilko with his world cup medal has managed to achieve something that Sexton has not.

There have been some very special 10's in Britain and Ireland in the last 50 years so I think that is a very big claim to make.

Wilkinson (as you said), Bennett, ROG, Jenkins to name but a few who I feel were superior to Sexton.

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