Ulster Rugby 2017-18

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Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Kingshu on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 4:45 pm

First topic message reminder :

I was thinkung similar McCloskey for me has been better than Arnold and Farrell and just isnt being picked. Hopefully a resurgent Ulster will make it all better

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 10:13 pm

They were clearly found not guilty. In circumstances like this and when involving notable sports stars I often find myself backing the accused, particularly after I read up on what Ched Evans was convicted on a few years ago, and the woman in this scenario didn't even claim she was a victim of r***. That bit was fed in by police and prosecution. It was like they wanted to make an example of this guy and ruin his career whilst at it. Similar scenario here? I don't know, but I don't see what they can gain from trying to ruin these guys' lives.

Maybe not so many of you god-fearing Irish have been, but I've certainly been in these situations on a night out and they're easily avoidable. Your Ulster players can come under scrutiny for squishing a bug, so it's advisable that they be a bit more careful. As for course language via text, well that's not much is it? We've all been called worse and moved on. So long as he doesn't ever speak to a lady like that then Very Happy.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Sin é on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 10:27 pm

carpet baboon wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:If the IRFU are going to start checking amounts of alcohol taken during down time or promiscuity levels I'd suggest they don't dig too deep or they may find themselves having to offload more than they'd like in years to come.

I think you are wrong there with regard to Munster & Leinster professional players anyway. Pretty much all of them are in settled relationships and have been from a young age. Zebo was probably the exception, but at this stage he is well settled down with two kids. From what I can see of the Leinster players, they seem fairly settled. For instance, Henshaw moved to Leinster because his girlfriend was studying there.

Christ on a bike sin. The image they portrayed to the public can often not be the same as what goes on behind closed doors.
The point being you don't by know untill, well untill you do. Making sweeping statements about how upstanding a person is due to there public profile is incredibly niave at best.

The thing about the Munster players anyway, is that Limerick is a very small place, they train in the University of Limerick and everyone knows all the players and goes to matches. They wouldn't be able to put a foot wrong, even if they wanted to. Everyone would know in 10 minutes what they were up to.

What I think a lot of people are missing is the general attitude to women displayed by the players in the WhatsApp conversation. Even though they knew the next day that the girl involved was not too happy about what happened, it didn't bother them at all. Would any parent want them near their sons or daughters who would see them as role models whether they like it or not.

Fintan O'Toole has a good article in the Irish Times today - well worth a read.


Fintan O’Toole: We need to talk to our boys about male honour
Decency shouldn’t have to be defined as manly. Belfast r*** trial shows what can happen if it isn’t

Two things in recent weeks have forced me to think again about male honour. One, of course, was the Belfast r*** trial and those awful text messages between the young men. They were not, as the jury decided, rapists. They had broken no laws and used no violence. What they were, however, is shameless. It is not just that they had no sense of male honour in the way they wrote about the young woman. It is that the exact opposite applied, that they felt honoured in each other’s eyes by crude and terrible boasting about the way she had been used. What should have been shameful was a source of great pride.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-we-need-to-talk-to-our-boys-about-male-honour-1.3448123

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Sin é on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 10:39 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
the-goon wrote:Ah the all seeing, all knowing TJ has given his 2 cents worth. Someone call the CPS, looks like they did the trial all wrong, who needs a jury etc.

The thing is with TJ an Sine, is you know for sure if this incident happened to Hogg, or Murray or Zebo their opinion on the matter would be completely different. My opinion - that's all it is.

100% Sin e has already indicated that he is willing to turn a blind eye/rationalise the Murray Zebo incident with the girl from Dublin.


Completely different. First of all, Murray and Zebo didn't end up for 9 weeks in a court room and secondly they were not the subject of a news report on a r*** trial every day for nine weeks - they were not even named. I'd imagine they got a bit of a dressing down from the IRFU/Munster about their behaviour, because since then they have been model players. The other thing they didn't boast about their conquest the next day on WhatsApp and so not bringing it into the public domain.

Its worth noting that both Murray & Zebo still get the odd comment on Twitter about what happened.

Zebo & Murray are probably they got off so lightly, but that is probably down to different legal jurisdictions. What most the present demonstrations are about is the system and how it is close to impossible to get a guilty verdict because all that is required is a 'reasonable doubt' (which could be something like conflicting opinion being introduced.
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by profitius on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 11:07 pm

Sin é wrote:
Fintan O'Toole has a good article in the Irish Times today - well worth a read.


Fintan O’Toole: We need to talk to our boys about male honour
Decency shouldn’t have to be defined as manly. Belfast r*** trial shows what can happen if it isn’t

Two things in recent weeks have forced me to think again about male honour. One, of course, was the Belfast r*** trial and those awful text messages between the young men. They were not, as the jury decided, rapists. They had broken no laws and used no violence. What they were, however, is shameless. It is not just that they had no sense of male honour in the way they wrote about the young woman. It is that the exact opposite applied, that they felt honoured in each other’s eyes by crude and terrible boasting about the way she had been used. What should have been shameful was a source of great pride.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-we-need-to-talk-to-our-boys-about-male-honour-1.3448123


Bit rich that hardcore leftists like O'Toole are leading the attack on the lads behaviour. They hated conservative behaviour and called that backwards.


Their real problem with this case is to do with class. There's shocking crimes happening on a daily basis but usually by lower class people. When it was rugby boys behaving badly the Marxists in them came racing to the surface.
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Sin é on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 12:09 am

profitius wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Fintan O'Toole has a good article in the Irish Times today - well worth a read.


Fintan O’Toole: We need to talk to our boys about male honour
Decency shouldn’t have to be defined as manly. Belfast r*** trial shows what can happen if it isn’t

Two things in recent weeks have forced me to think again about male honour. One, of course, was the Belfast r*** trial and those awful text messages between the young men. They were not, as the jury decided, rapists. They had broken no laws and used no violence. What they were, however, is shameless. It is not just that they had no sense of male honour in the way they wrote about the young woman. It is that the exact opposite applied, that they felt honoured in each other’s eyes by crude and terrible boasting about the way she had been used. What should have been shameful was a source of great pride.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-we-need-to-talk-to-our-boys-about-male-honour-1.3448123


Bit rich that hardcore leftists like O'Toole are leading the attack on the lads behaviour. They hated conservative behaviour and called that backwards.

Their real problem with this case is to do with class. There's shocking crimes happening on a daily basis but usually by lower class people. When it was rugby boys behaving badly the Marxists in them came racing to the surface.

Thats right, shoot the messenger. These lads have had a privileged upbringing (private schools etc), so there is no excuse for their misogynist behaviour.
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 8:08 am

Sin é wrote:
clivemcl wrote:And here’s Sin saying the IRFU have grounds to scrap contracts based simply on having sex without being in a committed relationship..

I didn't say that. Two lads and one woman (a teenager) is completely different to a one night stand, particularly when this particular social scene ended up in a nine week court case.

Its about bringing the sport into disrepute. People love and respect people like Rory Best and Paul O'Connell because they are obviously, decent family men and values that most people will identify with or at least want to identify with. PJ and Olding are the complete opposite of that. Just think of it, they went up to a bedroom and shared a teenager.

Brendan Fanning on the subject also worth reading:  https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/brendan-fanning-irfu-have-little-choice-but-to-sever-ties-with-talented-ulster-duo-36762701.html

Anything unsavoury that Paul O'Connell ever did was fairly quickly covered up. He is no angel. You keep using the word teenager like the girl was under age, she wasnt. You seem most offended that they shared a girl and yet turn a blind eye when Murray and Zebo did the same.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by 21st Century Schizoid Man on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 8:14 am

BBC reporting Craig Gilroy being investigated for texts and is suspended for this weeks game v Edinburgh.
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 8:16 am

I saw that. Its ridiculous. Horrible message but nothing to do with rugby. Should not be suspended. I also believe his privacy rights have been infringed here.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by clivemcl on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 8:44 am

As far as the twitter hysteria goes, I can’t see Gilroy being cut any slack. I’d love to see the detail of the IRFU/Ulster position if Gilroy gets treated any differently.
They are all equal in terms of foul/derogatory/demeaning texts.
So that leaves the drinks tally or threesome that they can take issue with.

Question. Would there even be a review if the boys were looking to leave? Maybe yes. Maybe had to be done anyway. But part of me wonders if the length of time is a sign that it’s proving a little difficult for them?

Perhaps less so a review and more so meetings with their own lawyers about what they can or can’t be seen to take issue with.

Or maybe they are happy to wait till the media storm calms down. I think that’s pointless, it will all kick off again regardless.

They no doubt feel the pressure from the online social world and are really worried about the public face of rugby and condemnation from high profile prople if they do nothing and back the players. So they maybe want to be seen to take action against the lads but are pretty worried about what they can do without getting sued.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 8:57 am

if Gilroy is forced out for one private social media message Logan can stick his ST where the sun doesn't shine.
Spineless waste of space steam

I think you will be hearing a chant of 'Logan out' at the Ospreys game.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 9:06 am

My team for Edinburgh - a revolutionary idea, lets reward committed quality performances and lets give poor performing player a kick up the backside.

O'Hagan, Best, Kane, Henderson, Dalton, Rea, Timoney, Jones
Cooney, McPhillips, Piatau, McCloskey, Marshall, Stockdale, Ludik
Sub: Black, Mcburney, O'Toole, Regan, Agnew, Stewart, Curtis, Lyttle

Basically saying to the young forwards against Bedford you were excellent, saying to most of the forwards against Cardiff you were rubbish
Wont happen in a million years but it should

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by marty2086 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 9:22 am

clivemcl wrote:As far as the twitter hysteria goes, I can’t see Gilroy being cut any slack. I’d love to see the detail of the IRFU/Ulster position if Gilroy gets treated any differently.
They are all equal in terms of foul/derogatory/demeaning texts.

What did Jackson or Olding say that was foul/derogatory/demeaning?

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by marty2086 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 9:25 am

For balance, didn't the accuser call the girls at Jacksons house sluts too?

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by The Great Aukster on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 9:29 am

The IRFU and Ulster have backed themselves into a corner.

If the accuser intends to conduct a civil suit, so the IRFU/Ulster should publicly postpone any "review" until after the outcome of the civil case is determined. If they don't then they are effectively trying them all over again with their own verdict being obvious to interested onlookers.

The IRFU and Ulster had no need to announce to the world that they were carrying out a "review" - they already have all the information they need on the events surrounding the trial. Jackson. Olding and now Gilroy should demand legal representation at any internal interviews as whatever action Ulster mete out will affect the civil action.


Last edited by The Great Aukster on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : accuracy)

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 9:30 am

Jackson said nothing at all - he did affirm something Olding said but that was it.
That of course will be totally lost in the hysteria.
This isn't about facts, let alone law, it is about mob rule and the IRFU protecting its brand

Marty yes she did, and before any of the lads used the word sluts.
Again a simple fact that will be lost in the hysteria

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 9:31 am

Aukster has she actual said she will go ahead with a Civil case ?

I know it was in that bog paper of a news journal the Irish Daily Mail but has it been reported in a more credible source ?

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Standulstermen on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 9:33 am

Didnt gilroys use of word actually match that of the complainant when describing the girls she was at a party with. i've got to be honest i dont think i've met an adult in my 17 years of adulthood who hasnt used that word about someone.

as i understand it although the burden of proof is lower in a civil suit there isnt the same protection afforded to things that were potentially ruled inadmissible in a criminal case. I'd be surprised

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Sin é on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 9:38 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
clivemcl wrote:And here’s Sin saying the IRFU have grounds to scrap contracts based simply on having sex without being in a committed relationship..

I didn't say that. Two lads and one woman (a teenager) is completely different to a one night stand, particularly when this particular social scene ended up in a nine week court case.

Its about bringing the sport into disrepute. People love and respect people like Rory Best and Paul O'Connell because they are obviously, decent family men and values that most people will identify with or at least want to identify with. PJ and Olding are the complete opposite of that. Just think of it, they went up to a bedroom and shared a teenager.

Brendan Fanning on the subject also worth reading:  https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/brendan-fanning-irfu-have-little-choice-but-to-sever-ties-with-talented-ulster-duo-36762701.html

Anything unsavoury that Paul O'Connell ever did was fairly quickly covered up. He is no angel. You keep using the word teenager like the girl was under age, she wasnt. You seem most offended that they shared a girl and yet turn a blind eye when Murray and Zebo did the same.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make bringing Paul O'Connell into it. I don't recall him ever being mixed up in some sex scandal or even a whisper about it. Do you want to fill us in?

Kathy Sheridan is worth a read today in the Irish Times (bearing in mind her now deceased husband, Pat Geraghty was an old Clongownian and Munster's PR person during the glory years. He was a former Leinster rugby PR person as well, so I'm sure she would have heard a few stories.

Sportsmen are role models – whether they like it or not

Kathy Sheridan: Decent men who have influence stand up for those who don’t

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/sportsmen-are-role-models-whether-they-like-it-or-not-1.3449342
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Sin é on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 9:41 am

Standulstermen wrote:Didnt gilroys use of word actually match that of the complainant when describing the girls she was at a party with. i've got to be honest i dont think i've met an adult in my 17 years of adulthood who hasnt used that word about someone.

as i understand it although the burden of proof is lower in a civil suit there isnt the same protection afforded to things that were potentially ruled inadmissible in a criminal case. I'd be surprised

I think the complainant referred to ''slutty behaviour' rather than calling the women sluts.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 9:43 am

Sin é wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:Didnt gilroys use of word actually match that of the complainant when describing the girls she was at a party with. i've got to be honest i dont think i've met an adult in my 17 years of adulthood who hasnt used that word about someone.

as i understand it although the burden of proof is lower in a civil suit there isnt the same protection afforded to things that were potentially ruled inadmissible in a criminal case. I'd be surprised

I think the complainant referred to ''slutty behaviour' rather than calling the women sluts.


Oh please - semantics

Who other than sluts indulge in slutty behaviour
A stupid piece of nit picking picard

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by marty2086 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 9:47 am

Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
clivemcl wrote:And here’s Sin saying the IRFU have grounds to scrap contracts based simply on having sex without being in a committed relationship..

I didn't say that. Two lads and one woman (a teenager) is completely different to a one night stand, particularly when this particular social scene ended up in a nine week court case.

Its about bringing the sport into disrepute. People love and respect people like Rory Best and Paul O'Connell because they are obviously, decent family men and values that most people will identify with or at least want to identify with. PJ and Olding are the complete opposite of that. Just think of it, they went up to a bedroom and shared a teenager.

Brendan Fanning on the subject also worth reading:  https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/brendan-fanning-irfu-have-little-choice-but-to-sever-ties-with-talented-ulster-duo-36762701.html

Anything unsavoury that Paul O'Connell ever did was fairly quickly covered up. He is no angel. You keep using the word teenager like the girl was under age, she wasnt. You seem most offended that they shared a girl and yet turn a blind eye when Murray and Zebo did the same.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make bringing Paul O'Connell into it. I don't recall him ever being mixed up in some sex scandal or even a whisper about it. Do you want to fill us in?

Kathy Sheridan is worth a read today in the Irish Times (bearing in mind her now deceased husband, Pat Geraghty  was an old Clongownian and Munster's PR person during the glory years. He was a former Leinster rugby PR person as well, so I'm sure she would have heard a few stories.

Sportsmen are role models – whether they like it or not

Kathy Sheridan: Decent men who have influence stand up for those who don’t

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/sportsmen-are-role-models-whether-they-like-it-or-not-1.3449342

Are you capable of thinking for yourself? All your opinions seem to come from someone else?

As for your comment about Limerick being a small place? Don't some of Munsters players still live in Cork? And didn't the move to UL only happen a year or so ago?

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Standulstermen on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 9:50 am

Sin é wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:Didnt gilroys use of word actually match that of the complainant when describing the girls she was at a party with. i've got to be honest i dont think i've met an adult in my 17 years of adulthood who hasnt used that word about someone.

as i understand it although the burden of proof is lower in a civil suit there isnt the same protection afforded to things that were potentially ruled inadmissible in a criminal case. I'd be surprised

I think the complainant referred to ''slutty behaviour' rather than calling the women sluts.


I think your quest for the worlds thinnest argument is approaching its conclusion

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by marty2086 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 9:52 am

Standulstermen wrote:Didnt gilroys use of word actually match that of the complainant when describing the girls she was at a party with. i've got to be honest i dont think i've met an adult in my 17 years of adulthood who hasnt used that word about someone.

as i understand it although the burden of proof is lower in a civil suit there isnt the same protection afforded to things that were potentially ruled inadmissible in a criminal case. I'd be surprised

That's what I alluded to previously, anonymity goes out the window and the rules of evidence change such as previous sexual behaviour which isn't allowed during a r*** case

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 9:57 am

Any Civil case would have to counter the evidence of Dara Florence, which is very clear cut.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by marty2086 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:01 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Any Civil case would have to counter the evidence of Dara Florence, which is very clear cut.

It doesn't look good for either side though since she contradicts Jacksons evidence

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by The Great Aukster on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:04 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Aukster has she actual said she will go ahead with a Civil case ?

I know it was in that bog paper of a news journal the Irish Daily Mail but has it been reported in a more credible source ?

No same source:
"The Irish Daily Mail is aware that a major UK law firm wants to talk to the woman about taking a case, and Mr Jury, who works for the renowned H20 firm, said there is still time for her to launch a case."

However the players also have their own law suits pending and action from Ulster would also potentially be prejudicial to those outcomes.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/rugby-r***-trial-verdict-jackson-and-olding-pursue-lawsuit-against-bbc-over-online-article-36754712.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-5562963/Jackson-sues-Irish-senator-defamation-post-trial-social-media-post.html


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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Sin é on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:06 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:Didnt gilroys use of word actually match that of the complainant when describing the girls she was at a party with. i've got to be honest i dont think i've met an adult in my 17 years of adulthood who hasnt used that word about someone.

as i understand it although the burden of proof is lower in a civil suit there isnt the same protection afforded to things that were potentially ruled inadmissible in a criminal case. I'd be surprised

I think the complainant referred to ''slutty behaviour' rather than calling the women sluts.


Oh please - semantics

Who other than sluts indulge in slutty behaviour
A stupid piece of nit picking picard

An important semantic - it doesn't demean the human, just their behaviour. Very much a christian teaching.
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by marty2086 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:09 am

Sin é wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:Didnt gilroys use of word actually match that of the complainant when describing the girls she was at a party with. i've got to be honest i dont think i've met an adult in my 17 years of adulthood who hasnt used that word about someone.

as i understand it although the burden of proof is lower in a civil suit there isnt the same protection afforded to things that were potentially ruled inadmissible in a criminal case. I'd be surprised

I think the complainant referred to ''slutty behaviour' rather than calling the women sluts.


Oh please - semantics

Who other than sluts indulge in slutty behaviour
A stupid piece of nit picking picard

An important semantic - it doesn't demean the human, just their behaviour. Very much a christian teaching.

So if you can have slutty behaviour but not be a promiscuous? FFS wise the feck up


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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Sin é on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:11 am

marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
clivemcl wrote:And here’s Sin saying the IRFU have grounds to scrap contracts based simply on having sex without being in a committed relationship..

I didn't say that. Two lads and one woman (a teenager) is completely different to a one night stand, particularly when this particular social scene ended up in a nine week court case.

Its about bringing the sport into disrepute. People love and respect people like Rory Best and Paul O'Connell because they are obviously, decent family men and values that most people will identify with or at least want to identify with. PJ and Olding are the complete opposite of that. Just think of it, they went up to a bedroom and shared a teenager.

Brendan Fanning on the subject also worth reading:  https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/brendan-fanning-irfu-have-little-choice-but-to-sever-ties-with-talented-ulster-duo-36762701.html

Anything unsavoury that Paul O'Connell ever did was fairly quickly covered up. He is no angel. You keep using the word teenager like the girl was under age, she wasnt. You seem most offended that they shared a girl and yet turn a blind eye when Murray and Zebo did the same.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make bringing Paul O'Connell into it. I don't recall him ever being mixed up in some sex scandal or even a whisper about it. Do you want to fill us in?

Kathy Sheridan is worth a read today in the Irish Times (bearing in mind her now deceased husband, Pat Geraghty  was an old Clongownian and Munster's PR person during the glory years. He was a former Leinster rugby PR person as well, so I'm sure she would have heard a few stories.

Sportsmen are role models – whether they like it or not

Kathy Sheridan: Decent men who have influence stand up for those who don’t

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/sportsmen-are-role-models-whether-they-like-it-or-not-1.3449342

Are you capable of thinking for yourself? All your opinions seem to come from someone else?

As for your comment about Limerick being a small place? Don't some of Munsters players still live in Cork? And didn't the move to UL only happen a year or so ago?

Most people here defending the behaviour of Jackson & Co. are just confirming their own beliefs. You guys need to hear what other people think.

Some Munster players did (and continue to do), but Cork isn't much bigger than Limerick. Munster players just wouldn't get away with anything - they are too well known right around Munster.
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by clivemcl on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:14 am

I'm not so sure the outrage will be so much on the use of the word 'sluts' but rather the question did any of them 'get f**ked', as that suggests that it is a thing that happens to them, rather than a joint equal sexual relation.

Not arguing, just stating what the outrage is likely to be, you are all talking as if the word promiscuous is the thing he did wrong. It was a sentence, and a sentence that perhaps says a lot about how he/they think about women, and perhaps suggests that they maybe have that as a goal on any given night out.

Also... this message was a private one-to-one message, not a group one. So the argument for bravado is weakened in this case.

I'm just pretty sure now that whatever fate Olding and Jackson face, Gilroy will face likewise.

This I don't think is about threesomes, or the drinks order, but about their demeaning language towards females.

In fact, as mentioned above, Jackson comes out cleanest.

Jackson said nothing derogatory or demeaning about females, has been found not guilty of any crime. What did he do? He didn't tell his mate to go away when he was in his room with a girl.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by marty2086 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:15 am

Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
clivemcl wrote:And here’s Sin saying the IRFU have grounds to scrap contracts based simply on having sex without being in a committed relationship..

I didn't say that. Two lads and one woman (a teenager) is completely different to a one night stand, particularly when this particular social scene ended up in a nine week court case.

Its about bringing the sport into disrepute. People love and respect people like Rory Best and Paul O'Connell because they are obviously, decent family men and values that most people will identify with or at least want to identify with. PJ and Olding are the complete opposite of that. Just think of it, they went up to a bedroom and shared a teenager.

Brendan Fanning on the subject also worth reading:  https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/brendan-fanning-irfu-have-little-choice-but-to-sever-ties-with-talented-ulster-duo-36762701.html

Anything unsavoury that Paul O'Connell ever did was fairly quickly covered up. He is no angel. You keep using the word teenager like the girl was under age, she wasnt. You seem most offended that they shared a girl and yet turn a blind eye when Murray and Zebo did the same.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make bringing Paul O'Connell into it. I don't recall him ever being mixed up in some sex scandal or even a whisper about it. Do you want to fill us in?

Kathy Sheridan is worth a read today in the Irish Times (bearing in mind her now deceased husband, Pat Geraghty  was an old Clongownian and Munster's PR person during the glory years. He was a former Leinster rugby PR person as well, so I'm sure she would have heard a few stories.

Sportsmen are role models – whether they like it or not

Kathy Sheridan: Decent men who have influence stand up for those who don’t

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/sportsmen-are-role-models-whether-they-like-it-or-not-1.3449342

Are you capable of thinking for yourself? All your opinions seem to come from someone else?

As for your comment about Limerick being a small place? Don't some of Munsters players still live in Cork? And didn't the move to UL only happen a year or so ago?

Most people here defending the behaviour of Jackson & Co. are just confirming their own beliefs. You guys need to hear what other people think.

Some Munster players did (and continue to do), but Cork isn't much bigger than Limerick. Munster players just wouldn't get away with anything - they are too well known right around Munster.

And yet it was only a video being released online that exposed Zebo and Murray, it's not like they are never in Dublin or anything Rolling Eyes

What behaviour? Having a threesome? They are entitled to do these things in their own lives, people are more than entitled to defend their right to do so, doesn't mean they agree with it.

Maybe if you saw beyond your own sanctimony you'd realise that


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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Sin é on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:16 am

marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:Didnt gilroys use of word actually match that of the complainant when describing the girls she was at a party with. i've got to be honest i dont think i've met an adult in my 17 years of adulthood who hasnt used that word about someone.

as i understand it although the burden of proof is lower in a civil suit there isnt the same protection afforded to things that were potentially ruled inadmissible in a criminal case. I'd be surprised

I think the complainant referred to ''slutty behaviour' rather than calling the women sluts.


Oh please - semantics

Who other than sluts indulge in slutty behaviour
A stupid piece of nit picking picard

An important semantic - it doesn't demean the human, just their behaviour. Very much a christian teaching.

So if you can have slutty behaviour but not be a promiscuous? FFS wise the feck up


Yes, you can. Just say you are drunk and end up in some situation you might regret later.

The christian teaching would be always to 'condemn the sin, but not the sinner'.
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by marty2086 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:18 am

Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:Didnt gilroys use of word actually match that of the complainant when describing the girls she was at a party with. i've got to be honest i dont think i've met an adult in my 17 years of adulthood who hasnt used that word about someone.

as i understand it although the burden of proof is lower in a civil suit there isnt the same protection afforded to things that were potentially ruled inadmissible in a criminal case. I'd be surprised

I think the complainant referred to ''slutty behaviour' rather than calling the women sluts.


Oh please - semantics

Who other than sluts indulge in slutty behaviour
A stupid piece of nit picking picard

An important semantic - it doesn't demean the human, just their behaviour. Very much a christian teaching.

So if you can have slutty behaviour but not be a promiscuous? FFS wise the feck up


Yes, you can. Just say you are drunk and end up in some situation you might regret later.

The christian teaching would be always to 'condemn the sin, but not the sinner'.

And you know this girls Christian faith then? Wise up

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:20 am

Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
clivemcl wrote:And here’s Sin saying the IRFU have grounds to scrap contracts based simply on having sex without being in a committed relationship..

I didn't say that. Two lads and one woman (a teenager) is completely different to a one night stand, particularly when this particular social scene ended up in a nine week court case.

Its about bringing the sport into disrepute. People love and respect people like Rory Best and Paul O'Connell because they are obviously, decent family men and values that most people will identify with or at least want to identify with. PJ and Olding are the complete opposite of that. Just think of it, they went up to a bedroom and shared a teenager.

Brendan Fanning on the subject also worth reading:  https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/brendan-fanning-irfu-have-little-choice-but-to-sever-ties-with-talented-ulster-duo-36762701.html

Anything unsavoury that Paul O'Connell ever did was fairly quickly covered up. He is no angel. You keep using the word teenager like the girl was under age, she wasnt. You seem most offended that they shared a girl and yet turn a blind eye when Murray and Zebo did the same.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make bringing Paul O'Connell into it. I don't recall him ever being mixed up in some sex scandal or even a whisper about it. Do you want to fill us in?

Kathy Sheridan is worth a read today in the Irish Times (bearing in mind her now deceased husband, Pat Geraghty  was an old Clongownian and Munster's PR person during the glory years. He was a former Leinster rugby PR person as well, so I'm sure she would have heard a few stories.

Sportsmen are role models – whether they like it or not

Kathy Sheridan: Decent men who have influence stand up for those who don’t

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/sportsmen-are-role-models-whether-they-like-it-or-not-1.3449342

Are you capable of thinking for yourself? All your opinions seem to come from someone else?

As for your comment about Limerick being a small place? Don't some of Munsters players still live in Cork? And didn't the move to UL only happen a year or so ago?

Most people here defending the behaviour of Jackson & Co. are just confirming their own beliefs. You guys need to hear what other people think.

Some Munster players did (and continue to do), but Cork isn't much bigger than Limerick. Munster players just wouldn't get away with anything - they are too well known right around Munster.

This is where you continue to miss read what people here are saying.
No one that I can see is defending their actions.
What people are saying is the trial is over the players were found not guilty and should stay or go solely based upon what is in their legal signed contracts.

Instead we have a mob rule, hate filled, largely ignorant social media campaign going on to force them out.
In addition we have a spineless IRFU and Ulster CEO who appear to be listening to this.
It is these facts that are unacceptable not the action themselves

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:28 am

Sin é wrote: Cork isn't much bigger than Limerick.

I beg to differ
Metropolitan Area
Belfast 670,000
Cork 399,000
Limerick 162,000

Cork is big enough to hide in the same way Belfast is.
Limerick is a city in name only - the other two have the look and feel of small cities

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Sin é on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:32 am

marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
clivemcl wrote:And here’s Sin saying the IRFU have grounds to scrap contracts based simply on having sex without being in a committed relationship..

I didn't say that. Two lads and one woman (a teenager) is completely different to a one night stand, particularly when this particular social scene ended up in a nine week court case.

Its about bringing the sport into disrepute. People love and respect people like Rory Best and Paul O'Connell because they are obviously, decent family men and values that most people will identify with or at least want to identify with. PJ and Olding are the complete opposite of that. Just think of it, they went up to a bedroom and shared a teenager.

Brendan Fanning on the subject also worth reading:  https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/brendan-fanning-irfu-have-little-choice-but-to-sever-ties-with-talented-ulster-duo-36762701.html

Anything unsavoury that Paul O'Connell ever did was fairly quickly covered up. He is no angel. You keep using the word teenager like the girl was under age, she wasnt. You seem most offended that they shared a girl and yet turn a blind eye when Murray and Zebo did the same.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make bringing Paul O'Connell into it. I don't recall him ever being mixed up in some sex scandal or even a whisper about it. Do you want to fill us in?

Kathy Sheridan is worth a read today in the Irish Times (bearing in mind her now deceased husband, Pat Geraghty  was an old Clongownian and Munster's PR person during the glory years. He was a former Leinster rugby PR person as well, so I'm sure she would have heard a few stories.

Sportsmen are role models – whether they like it or not

Kathy Sheridan: Decent men who have influence stand up for those who don’t

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/sportsmen-are-role-models-whether-they-like-it-or-not-1.3449342

Are you capable of thinking for yourself? All your opinions seem to come from someone else?

As for your comment about Limerick being a small place? Don't some of Munsters players still live in Cork? And didn't the move to UL only happen a year or so ago?

Most people here defending the behaviour of Jackson & Co. are just confirming their own beliefs. You guys need to hear what other people think.

Some Munster players did (and continue to do), but Cork isn't much bigger than Limerick. Munster players just wouldn't get away with anything - they are too well known right around Munster.

And yet it was only a video being released online that exposed Zebo and Murray, it's not like they are never in Dublin or anything Rolling Eyes

What behaviour? Having a threesome? They are entitled to do these things in their own lives, people are more than entitled to defend their right to do so, doesn't mean they agree with it.

Maybe if you saw beyond your own sanctimony you'd realise that


Which proves the point that they can't get away with anything (even in Dublin). Probably why it explains why when they have time off they head to New York!

You keep missing the point about the difference between the two situations (and by the way, plenty of people were fairly disappointed with the behavior of Murray & Zebo at the time, including myself.)
1. Zebo & Murray didn't make the video. They did not publish it online. They didn't boast about it the next day. They kept their mouths shut and said nothing about the woman. Zebo (who would have been a bit wild) completely changed his lifestyle and settled down. Murray was always fairly quiet and serious, so I'd imagine that was probably a once off where he learned an important lesson.
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Pete330v2 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:35 am

"Most people here defending the behaviour of Jackson & Co. are just confirming their own beliefs. You guys need to hear what other "

Jackson was found not guilty of any crime and said little to nothing in the whatsapp chats so why name him as if he's the main player in all of this?
Also, I for one do not form any belief system based upon the writings of any pulp journo. I, like many others believe it or not, form my own set of morals without needing to refer to any news rag or a 2000 year old, plagiarized script for that matter.
If this review makes any reference to social media, the bible or 'tomorrow's toilet paper' journalism then those being reviewed will be able to and have every right to take the IRFU and UR to the cleaners.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Sin é on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:36 am

marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:Didnt gilroys use of word actually match that of the complainant when describing the girls she was at a party with. i've got to be honest i dont think i've met an adult in my 17 years of adulthood who hasnt used that word about someone.

as i understand it although the burden of proof is lower in a civil suit there isnt the same protection afforded to things that were potentially ruled inadmissible in a criminal case. I'd be surprised

I think the complainant referred to ''slutty behaviour' rather than calling the women sluts.


Oh please - semantics

Who other than sluts indulge in slutty behaviour
A stupid piece of nit picking picard

An important semantic - it doesn't demean the human, just their behaviour. Very much a christian teaching.

So if you can have slutty behaviour but not be a promiscuous? FFS wise the feck up


Yes, you can. Just say you are drunk and end up in some situation you might regret later.

The christian teaching would be always to 'condemn the sin, but not the sinner'.

And you know this girls Christian faith then? Wise up

It becomes a cultural thing in the christian world. I've been on HR management courses and they teach this way of how to deal with people (for instance, if you have to reprimand them for something, criticise what they do, not them - ie, you must be stupid to do that rather than, that was a very stupid thing to do).
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:37 am

The biggest difference here is the reporting rules in the south as opposed to the north.
Should the players receive a harsher sentence, rugby wise, because they live the wrong side of the border ?


Are you ok with the word n****r being used ?

So you imagine, probably, he learnt a lesson
What you are really saying is you haven't got a bloody clue.


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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by marty2086 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:40 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Instead we have a mob rule, hate filled, largely ignorant social media campaign going on to force them out.
In addition we have a spineless IRFU and Ulster CEO who appear to be listening to this.
It is these facts that are unacceptable not the action themselves

In defence of Ulster and the IRFU, as someone has said, they are between a rock and a hard place. If they condemn them openly it's hard to welcome them back and then if they don't you alienate part of the population. They are a business after all.

I think they'll take their time with it and see if anything comes to light to almost give them grounds for reinstatement or at least give them cover for doing it

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by marty2086 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:41 am

Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
clivemcl wrote:And here’s Sin saying the IRFU have grounds to scrap contracts based simply on having sex without being in a committed relationship..

I didn't say that. Two lads and one woman (a teenager) is completely different to a one night stand, particularly when this particular social scene ended up in a nine week court case.

Its about bringing the sport into disrepute. People love and respect people like Rory Best and Paul O'Connell because they are obviously, decent family men and values that most people will identify with or at least want to identify with. PJ and Olding are the complete opposite of that. Just think of it, they went up to a bedroom and shared a teenager.

Brendan Fanning on the subject also worth reading:  https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/brendan-fanning-irfu-have-little-choice-but-to-sever-ties-with-talented-ulster-duo-36762701.html

Anything unsavoury that Paul O'Connell ever did was fairly quickly covered up. He is no angel. You keep using the word teenager like the girl was under age, she wasnt. You seem most offended that they shared a girl and yet turn a blind eye when Murray and Zebo did the same.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make bringing Paul O'Connell into it. I don't recall him ever being mixed up in some sex scandal or even a whisper about it. Do you want to fill us in?

Kathy Sheridan is worth a read today in the Irish Times (bearing in mind her now deceased husband, Pat Geraghty  was an old Clongownian and Munster's PR person during the glory years. He was a former Leinster rugby PR person as well, so I'm sure she would have heard a few stories.

Sportsmen are role models – whether they like it or not

Kathy Sheridan: Decent men who have influence stand up for those who don’t

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/sportsmen-are-role-models-whether-they-like-it-or-not-1.3449342

Are you capable of thinking for yourself? All your opinions seem to come from someone else?

As for your comment about Limerick being a small place? Don't some of Munsters players still live in Cork? And didn't the move to UL only happen a year or so ago?

Most people here defending the behaviour of Jackson & Co. are just confirming their own beliefs. You guys need to hear what other people think.

Some Munster players did (and continue to do), but Cork isn't much bigger than Limerick. Munster players just wouldn't get away with anything - they are too well known right around Munster.

And yet it was only a video being released online that exposed Zebo and Murray, it's not like they are never in Dublin or anything Rolling Eyes

What behaviour? Having a threesome? They are entitled to do these things in their own lives, people are more than entitled to defend their right to do so, doesn't mean they agree with it.

Maybe if you saw beyond your own sanctimony you'd realise that


Which proves the point that they can't get away with anything (even in Dublin). Probably why it explains why when they have time off they head to New York!

You keep missing the point about the difference between the two situations (and by the way, plenty of people were fairly disappointed with the behavior of Murray & Zebo at the time, including myself.)
1. Zebo & Murray didn't make the video. They did not publish it online. They didn't boast about it the next day. They kept their mouths shut and said nothing about the woman. Zebo (who would have been a bit wild) completely changed his lifestyle and settled down. Murray was always fairly quiet and serious, so I'd imagine that was probably a once off where he learned an important lesson.

How do you know they didn't say anything about her?


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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Sin é on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:44 am

Pete330v2 wrote:"Most people here defending the behaviour of Jackson & Co. are just confirming their own beliefs. You guys need to hear what other "

Jackson was found not guilty of any crime and said little to nothing in the whatsapp chats so why name him as if he's the main player in all of this?
Also, I for one do not form any belief system based upon the writings of any pulp journo. I, like many others believe it or not, form my own set of morals without needing to refer to any news rag or a 2000 year old, plagiarized script for that matter.
If this review makes any reference to social media, the bible or 'tomorrow's toilet paper' journalism then those being reviewed will be able to and have every right to take the IRFU and UR to the cleaners.

The whole issue that people have with this case has gone completely over your head then.

In the ROI, because of this case, the Irish Gov. (despite the laws around court cases are a bit better) are now about to re-evaluate and update the school curriculum on sex education to include discussion on the issue of consent, relationships etc. (up to now it seemingly is very much about biology than anything else). And the Justice Depart. are looking to look at how the victims of r*** can be protected more (with perhaps r*** victims who are regarded as witnesses being given their own legal counsel).

The problem people have with the Belfast trial was that it was like the woman was on trial even though she was only a witness, not the men involved.
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by marty2086 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:47 am

Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:"Most people here defending the behaviour of Jackson & Co. are just confirming their own beliefs. You guys need to hear what other "

Jackson was found not guilty of any crime and said little to nothing in the whatsapp chats so why name him as if he's the main player in all of this?
Also, I for one do not form any belief system based upon the writings of any pulp journo. I, like many others believe it or not, form my own set of morals without needing to refer to any news rag or a 2000 year old, plagiarized script for that matter.
If this review makes any reference to social media, the bible or 'tomorrow's toilet paper' journalism then those being reviewed will be able to and have every right to take the IRFU and UR to the cleaners.

The whole issue that people have with this case has gone completely over your head then.

In the ROI, because of this case, the Irish Gov. (despite the laws around court cases are a bit better) are now about to re-evaluate and update the school curriculum on sex education to include discussion on the issue of consent, relationships etc. (up to now it seemingly is very much about biology than anything else). And the Justice Depart. are looking to look at how the victims of r*** can be protected more (with perhaps r*** victims who are regarded as witnesses being given their own legal counsel).  

The problem people have with the Belfast trial was that it was like the woman was on trial even though she was only a witness, not the men involved.

Except one of the tenets of any criminal justice system is the right to confront an accuser, something some seem to forget and all victims have their version challenged in a trial no matter the accusation

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Sin é on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:50 am

marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
clivemcl wrote:And here’s Sin saying the IRFU have grounds to scrap contracts based simply on having sex without being in a committed relationship..

I didn't say that. Two lads and one woman (a teenager) is completely different to a one night stand, particularly when this particular social scene ended up in a nine week court case.

Its about bringing the sport into disrepute. People love and respect people like Rory Best and Paul O'Connell because they are obviously, decent family men and values that most people will identify with or at least want to identify with. PJ and Olding are the complete opposite of that. Just think of it, they went up to a bedroom and shared a teenager.

Brendan Fanning on the subject also worth reading:  https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/brendan-fanning-irfu-have-little-choice-but-to-sever-ties-with-talented-ulster-duo-36762701.html

Anything unsavoury that Paul O'Connell ever did was fairly quickly covered up. He is no angel. You keep using the word teenager like the girl was under age, she wasnt. You seem most offended that they shared a girl and yet turn a blind eye when Murray and Zebo did the same.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make bringing Paul O'Connell into it. I don't recall him ever being mixed up in some sex scandal or even a whisper about it. Do you want to fill us in?

Kathy Sheridan is worth a read today in the Irish Times (bearing in mind her now deceased husband, Pat Geraghty  was an old Clongownian and Munster's PR person during the glory years. He was a former Leinster rugby PR person as well, so I'm sure she would have heard a few stories.

Sportsmen are role models – whether they like it or not

Kathy Sheridan: Decent men who have influence stand up for those who don’t

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/sportsmen-are-role-models-whether-they-like-it-or-not-1.3449342

Are you capable of thinking for yourself? All your opinions seem to come from someone else?

As for your comment about Limerick being a small place? Don't some of Munsters players still live in Cork? And didn't the move to UL only happen a year or so ago?

Most people here defending the behaviour of Jackson & Co. are just confirming their own beliefs. You guys need to hear what other people think.

Some Munster players did (and continue to do), but Cork isn't much bigger than Limerick. Munster players just wouldn't get away with anything - they are too well known right around Munster.

And yet it was only a video being released online that exposed Zebo and Murray, it's not like they are never in Dublin or anything Rolling Eyes

What behaviour? Having a threesome? They are entitled to do these things in their own lives, people are more than entitled to defend their right to do so, doesn't mean they agree with it.

Maybe if you saw beyond your own sanctimony you'd realise that


Which proves the point that they can't get away with anything (even in Dublin). Probably why it explains why when they have time off they head to New York!

You keep missing the point about the difference between the two situations (and by the way, plenty of people were fairly disappointed with the behavior of Murray & Zebo at the time, including myself.)
1. Zebo & Murray didn't make the video. They did not publish it online. They didn't boast about it the next day. They kept their mouths shut and said nothing about the woman. Zebo (who would have been a bit wild) completely changed his lifestyle and settled down. Murray was always fairly quiet and serious, so I'd imagine that was probably a once off where he learned an important lesson.

How do you know they didn't say anything about her?

Because if they did, more than likely it would have been all over social media. The Independent did an article on it (actually interviewed the woman involved who said she regretted what happened). I remember and Indo said they had not commented. Pat Geraghty was the Munster PR person at the time and I'm pretty sure he would have taken them in hand. He was renowned for his protection of the players (and took no crap from them either).
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by marty2086 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:53 am

Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
clivemcl wrote:And here’s Sin saying the IRFU have grounds to scrap contracts based simply on having sex without being in a committed relationship..

I didn't say that. Two lads and one woman (a teenager) is completely different to a one night stand, particularly when this particular social scene ended up in a nine week court case.

Its about bringing the sport into disrepute. People love and respect people like Rory Best and Paul O'Connell because they are obviously, decent family men and values that most people will identify with or at least want to identify with. PJ and Olding are the complete opposite of that. Just think of it, they went up to a bedroom and shared a teenager.

Brendan Fanning on the subject also worth reading:  https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/brendan-fanning-irfu-have-little-choice-but-to-sever-ties-with-talented-ulster-duo-36762701.html

Anything unsavoury that Paul O'Connell ever did was fairly quickly covered up. He is no angel. You keep using the word teenager like the girl was under age, she wasnt. You seem most offended that they shared a girl and yet turn a blind eye when Murray and Zebo did the same.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make bringing Paul O'Connell into it. I don't recall him ever being mixed up in some sex scandal or even a whisper about it. Do you want to fill us in?

Kathy Sheridan is worth a read today in the Irish Times (bearing in mind her now deceased husband, Pat Geraghty  was an old Clongownian and Munster's PR person during the glory years. He was a former Leinster rugby PR person as well, so I'm sure she would have heard a few stories.

Sportsmen are role models – whether they like it or not

Kathy Sheridan: Decent men who have influence stand up for those who don’t

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/sportsmen-are-role-models-whether-they-like-it-or-not-1.3449342

Are you capable of thinking for yourself? All your opinions seem to come from someone else?

As for your comment about Limerick being a small place? Don't some of Munsters players still live in Cork? And didn't the move to UL only happen a year or so ago?

Most people here defending the behaviour of Jackson & Co. are just confirming their own beliefs. You guys need to hear what other people think.

Some Munster players did (and continue to do), but Cork isn't much bigger than Limerick. Munster players just wouldn't get away with anything - they are too well known right around Munster.

And yet it was only a video being released online that exposed Zebo and Murray, it's not like they are never in Dublin or anything Rolling Eyes

What behaviour? Having a threesome? They are entitled to do these things in their own lives, people are more than entitled to defend their right to do so, doesn't mean they agree with it.

Maybe if you saw beyond your own sanctimony you'd realise that


Which proves the point that they can't get away with anything (even in Dublin). Probably why it explains why when they have time off they head to New York!

You keep missing the point about the difference between the two situations (and by the way, plenty of people were fairly disappointed with the behavior of Murray & Zebo at the time, including myself.)
1. Zebo & Murray didn't make the video. They did not publish it online. They didn't boast about it the next day. They kept their mouths shut and said nothing about the woman. Zebo (who would have been a bit wild) completely changed his lifestyle and settled down. Murray was always fairly quiet and serious, so I'd imagine that was probably a once off where he learned an important lesson.

How do you know they didn't say anything about her?

Because if they did, more than likely it would have been all over social media. The Independent did an article on it (actually interviewed the woman involved who said she regretted what happened). I remember and Indo said they had not commented.  Pat Geraghty was the Munster PR person at the time and I'm pretty sure he would have taken them in hand. He was renowned for his protection of the players (and took no crap from them either).

So Munster and the media have full access to all their text and whatsapp messages?

You really are clueless, just because it wasn't reported doesn't mean it didn't happen

The only reason these messages are public, is because they were evidence in a trial and the police and prosecution had access to them. The only reason Gilroys are public is because the prosecution barrister is a right pr!ck

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:53 am

Your silence about the use of the word n****r is revealing

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by clivemcl on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:54 am

I'm reposting this. If we keep responding to Sin, we won't actually get any good discussion going on the reality of UR/IRFU situation. Please ignore him. You aren't going to change his biased mind.


I'm not so sure the outrage will be so much on the use of the word 'sluts' but rather the question did any of them 'get f**ked', as that suggests that it is a thing that happens to them, rather than a joint equal sexual relation.

Not arguing, just stating what the outrage is likely to be, you are all talking as if the word promiscuous is the thing he did wrong. It was a sentence, and a sentence that perhaps says a lot about how he/they think about women, and perhaps suggests that they maybe have that as a goal on any given night out.

Also... this message was a private one-to-one message, not a group one. So the argument for bravado is weakened in this case.

I'm just pretty sure now that whatever fate Olding and Jackson face, Gilroy will face likewise.

This I don't think is about threesomes, or the drinks order, but about their demeaning language towards females.

In fact, as mentioned above, Jackson comes out cleanest.

Jackson said nothing derogatory or demeaning about females, has been found not guilty of any crime. What did he do? He didn't tell his mate to go away when he was in his room with a girl.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by The Great Aukster on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:59 am

Sin é wrote:
profitius wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Fintan O'Toole has a good article in the Irish Times today - well worth a read.


Fintan O’Toole: We need to talk to our boys about male honour
Decency shouldn’t have to be defined as manly. Belfast r*** trial shows what can happen if it isn’t

Two things in recent weeks have forced me to think again about male honour. One, of course, was the Belfast r*** trial and those awful text messages between the young men. They were not, as the jury decided, rapists. They had broken no laws and used no violence. What they were, however, is shameless. It is not just that they had no sense of male honour in the way they wrote about the young woman. It is that the exact opposite applied, that they felt honoured in each other’s eyes by crude and terrible boasting about the way she had been used. What should have been shameful was a source of great pride.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-we-need-to-talk-to-our-boys-about-male-honour-1.3448123


Bit rich that hardcore leftists like O'Toole are leading the attack on the lads behaviour. They hated conservative behaviour and called that backwards.

Their real problem with this case is to do with class. There's shocking crimes happening on a daily basis but usually by lower class people. When it was rugby boys behaving badly the Marxists in them came racing to the surface.

Thats right, shoot the messenger. These lads have had a privileged upbringing (private schools etc), so there is no excuse for their misogynist behaviour.
So if they didn't have a privileged upbringing that would excuse their behaviour?

The objectification of women is indoctrinated into society through the very media that is now hypocritically accusing these lads for it.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Sin é on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 11:02 am

marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:"Most people here defending the behaviour of Jackson & Co. are just confirming their own beliefs. You guys need to hear what other "

Jackson was found not guilty of any crime and said little to nothing in the whatsapp chats so why name him as if he's the main player in all of this?
Also, I for one do not form any belief system based upon the writings of any pulp journo. I, like many others believe it or not, form my own set of morals without needing to refer to any news rag or a 2000 year old, plagiarized script for that matter.
If this review makes any reference to social media, the bible or 'tomorrow's toilet paper' journalism then those being reviewed will be able to and have every right to take the IRFU and UR to the cleaners.

The whole issue that people have with this case has gone completely over your head then.

In the ROI, because of this case, the Irish Gov. (despite the laws around court cases are a bit better) are now about to re-evaluate and update the school curriculum on sex education to include discussion on the issue of consent, relationships etc. (up to now it seemingly is very much about biology than anything else). And the Justice Depart. are looking to look at how the victims of r*** can be protected more (with perhaps r*** victims who are regarded as witnesses being given their own legal counsel).  

The problem people have with the Belfast trial was that it was like the woman was on trial even though she was only a witness, not the men involved.

Except one of the tenets of any criminal justice system is the right to confront an accuser, something some seem to forget and all victims have their version challenged in a trial no matter the accusation

r*** trial is particularly difficult situation and the system in the UK could do with a bit of improving. Its not fair on either party because its so easy to defend (all the defence has to do is introduce any reasonable doubt).
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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

Post by Pete330v2 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 11:05 am

The whole issue that people have with this case has gone completely over your head then.

In the ROI, because of this case, the Irish Gov. (despite the laws around court cases are a bit better) are now about to re-evaluate and update the school curriculum on sex education to include discussion on the issue of consent, relationships etc. (up to now it seemingly is very much about biology than anything else). And the Justice Depart. are looking to look at how the victims of r*** can be protected more (with perhaps r*** victims who are regarded as witnesses being given their own legal counsel).  

The problem people have with the Belfast trial was that it was like the woman was on trial even though she was only a witness, not the men involved.


That is hilarious.
All be it I laughed more out of pity than anything else.
There simply is no debate with you as usual, there's your opinion and then there's everyone else's and they are all wrong.

I'm not sure you coming onto the Ulster thread at this time is akin to a vulture circling or a fly around sh01te, I feel the latter.

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Re: Ulster Rugby 2017-18

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