England Six Nations Thread

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England Six Nations Thread

Post by ChequeredJersey on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 5:53 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:In that case LIW, Ill put my money on it being the following.

6 Lawes
7 Robshaw
8 Hughes

Hughes off knackered after about 50/55 mins.
Robshaw to 8 then Underhill on at 7.

I cant see Jones bringing Mercer up just yet.

Haskell is back in to so may come into the reckoning as starter or bench cover although might be harsh on Underhill.

Could be tried & tested.

6. Robshaw
7. Haskell
8. Hughes

Lawes covering bench

I think we need to Focus on Underhill now. Unless we're REALLY struggling for an 8, then possibly pop Haskell in.

6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Haskell


Robshaw, Frodo, Hughes. Hask on bench
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by lostinwales on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 10:23 pm

They are now saying 4 weeks for Simmonds.

Very annoying. Wonderful to have a player like that appear virtually from nowhere, and now we have had a brief view of him on the big stage he goes and gets hurt

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 11:14 pm

If simmonds is out then what realistic options do we have?
Lawes robshaw Mercer.
Lawes Robshaw Haskell.
RobShaw haskell mercer

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by lostinwales on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 12:32 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:If simmonds is out then what realistic options do we have?
Lawes robshaw Mercer.
Lawes Robshaw Haskell.
RobShaw haskell mercer

2 weeks to get Hughes fit. Not convinced by Haskell these days

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by lostinwales on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 12:37 am

Beeb article seems to confirm Hughes in line for recall. Following players released from camp - so no Mercer just yet. Solomona being released may be good news for Watson.

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Gabriel Ibitoye (Harlequins), Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), Zach Mercer (Bath Rugby), Sam Moore (Sale Sharks), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks) were released on Tuesday evening, with the remaining 25 staying in camp until Friday.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 10:25 am

Hughes will probably only last about 50-60 mins v Scotland, so Haskell or Robshaw will have to cover 8

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by doctor_grey on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 11:51 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hughes will probably only last about 50-60 mins v Scotland, so Haskell or Robshaw will have to cover 8
If you are right, which I think you are, then it might make sense to have Hughes come off the bench.

Start Haskell? Haskell frequently has a good game when he believes he has been overlooked and have something to prove.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 12:50 pm

Very possibly Dr.

I was just going off the Wales game where Eddie seems quite comfortable moving Robshaw to 8.

At least we do have options...not all outstanding...but options at least.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by thomh on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 1:52 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Hughes will probably only last about 50-60 mins v Scotland, so Haskell or Robshaw will have to cover 8
If you are right, which I think you are, then it might make sense to have Hughes come off the bench.  

Start Haskell?  Haskell frequently has a good game when he believes he has been overlooked and have something to prove.  

Sure you're right if it's a trend you've noticed but I can't think of any examples. Which games are you thinking of?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by doctor_grey on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 5:26 pm

thomh wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Hughes will probably only last about 50-60 mins v Scotland, so Haskell or Robshaw will have to cover 8
If you are right, which I think you are, then it might make sense to have Hughes come off the bench.  

Start Haskell?  Haskell frequently has a good game when he believes he has been overlooked and have something to prove.  

Sure you're right if it's a trend you've noticed but I can't think of any examples. Which games are you thinking of?
In particular the game where Haskell head-butted the goal posts, he played extremely well (though won't be remembered for playing well), but was under a lot of pressure for a spot. There were a few others, but need my sons to remind me. But, if my memory is right, his second game was usually not so good.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by hugehandoff on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 5:59 pm

since Hask was awesome in the 1st 2 tests in Aus during the 3-0 clean sweep he has not got back to those heights mainly because of injury I believe. The toe injury and surgery was obviously pretty bad and he has not returned to his explosive best. I would therefore keep him on the bench and use Hughes for as long as possible.

Interesting to see how England have changed since 2 years ago against Ireland.

England: Mike Brown, Anthony Watson, Jonathan Joseph, Owen Farrell, Jack Nowell, George Ford, Ben Youngs; Joe Marler, Dylan Hartley (captain), Dan Cole, Maro Itoje, George Kruis, Chris Robshaw, James Haskell, Billy Vunipola.

Replacements: Jamie George, Mako Vunipola, Paul Hill, Courtney Lawes, Jack Clifford, Danny Care, Elliot Daly, Alex Goode.

Ireland: Rob Kearney, Andrew Trimble, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart McCloskey, Keith Earls, Jonathan Sexton, Conor Murray; Jack McGrath, Rory Best, Mike Ross, Donnacha Ryan, Devin Toner, CJ Stander, Josh van der Flier, Jamie Heaslip (captain).

Replacements: Richardt Strauss, Cian Healy, Nathan White, Ultan Dillane, Rhys Ruddock, Eoin Reddan, Ian Madigan, Simon Zebo.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by thomh on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 6:55 pm

My recollection of that 2015 Wales game was that Haskell was having the season of his career but had picked up a nasty virus or something during the AIs which meant he lost a stone and couldn't play. The Wales game was his first start for a while but mainly because of unavailability.

Not that that disproves your point - but I think the context was that he was playing his best ever rugby at the time anyway.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by doctor_grey on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 11:11 pm

maybe you are right. But the way I recall it was he felt under appreciated and went public in the press about it. Then goes out has played great.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by TightHEAD on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:30 pm

Looks like fun.

http://www.englandrugby.com/ertv/video/marler-georgia-scrum-session-was-tough-and-intense/
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by TightHEAD on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:55 am

Anyone watching the training session live on facebook?
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by SecretFly on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 11:00 am

Next week it's the LA showgirls that are coming over. It's an exciting place to be, that England camp!

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Scottrf on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 11:02 am

Murrayfield Showgirls*

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by TightHEAD on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 11:22 am

Brutal session.

Hughes is nowhere near match fitness.
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by propdavid_london on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 3:30 pm

If Hughes isn't up to it then we are scraping the bottom of the barrel a bit.
Either Robshaw will be packing down at 8 (like they had him on that England/wales scrum session).
Or they will be bringing in Mercer. Just aren't many alternatives - unless Eddie wants to do a 180 and call in Ben Morgan or a Dave Ewers etc.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 3:36 pm

6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Mercer

May as well go for it!

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by TightHEAD on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 3:47 pm

propdavid_london wrote:If Hughes isn't up to it then we are scraping the bottom of the barrel a bit.  
He kept plugging away all session but the guy looked out on his feet, sub at best me thinks.
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 3:58 pm

However we'll more certainly see

6 Lawes
7 Underhill
8 Robshaw


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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Poorfour on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 4:17 pm

TightHEAD wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:If Hughes isn't up to it then we are scraping the bottom of the barrel a bit.  
He kept plugging away all session but the guy looked out on his feet, sub at best me thinks.

Agreed - definitely short of match fitness. I'd be less confident of Robshaw at 8 for a full game (though he was good enough against Wales for 40 minutes), so I'd like to see Mercer given a go. I also wonder if Eddie will bring anyone else into the squad. Or there's always Haskell - who looked a lot like a man on a mission today.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 4:25 pm

I forgot about Haskell...


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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by BamBam on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 4:58 pm

Scotland are probably the opposition most suited to giving Mercer a go. They don't really possess the physical monsters that other sides do, and his speed will be very helpful when we're defending

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by nlpnlp on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 11:29 pm

Haskell must have 20+ caps at 8 for England so would be the safe choice. But agree with GeordieFalcon and think he will go with Underhill, Robshaw and Lawes, plus Hughes on the bench as cover. I do think it is the heavy ball carriers which cause Scotland more trouble than the more mobile carriers.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 11:44 pm

Having watched him tonight v the falcons...Mercer is not ready.


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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by ChequeredJersey on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 11:48 pm

Our backrow, considering the players we should have available and even the ones we still do, is looking a worry.

Robshaw will do fine as needed at 8. But it’s hardly optimal. And that’s not a monster carrying backrow in any universe
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 11:52 pm

I'm not sure it is CJ.

Yeah we're missing a few heavy duty carriers...but I think we can still put out a quality back row.

Even
6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Haskell

Would be a good aggressive powerful back row.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by lostinwales on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 3:42 am

I do feel concerned that Haskell really isn't the player he was- but I doubt that any player would work harder given the chance to get back in the squad.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by kingelderfield on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 1:13 pm

Haskell might have one or two performances left, but really at best he's a positive squad influence. Hopefully some of the new generation will make the grade, young lad at Wasps is rubbish, can't even remember his name.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 5:15 pm

I was wondering... did EJ call up Moore to try and deter Wales from capping him? I guess he qualifies for England on residency?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by eirebilly on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 5:31 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:I was wondering... did EJ call up Moore to try and deter Wales from capping him? I guess he qualifies for England on residency?

Surely the end decision lies with the player does it not? If Wales thought he had a future with them, then they would have approached him first? Maybe they did and he still chose England?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Scottrf on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 5:33 pm

They are worth more to Prem clubs if they play for England. That's it really.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 6:02 pm

eirebilly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I was wondering... did EJ call up Moore to try and deter Wales from capping him? I guess he qualifies for England on residency?

Surely the end decision lies with the player does it not? If Wales thought he had a future with them, then they would have approached him first? Maybe they did and he still chose England?

Ummm nobody is saying the decision doesn't lie with the player. It just seems unusual for England to call up U20 players when they have a plethora of options, although saying that EJ previously did it with Marcus Smith so maybe it's their new thing. I doubt we'd have approached him unless we get a lock injury crisis and in that scenario it's likely he could earn a cap. I don't think England will cap him just yet. I'm not really sure what his feelings are towards representing the land of his fathers.... but I hear he's a good catch so I doubt we'd say no.

* He's actually an 8. Why didn't we put the offer out there?! We like have one and a half options at 8.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by eirebilly on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 6:10 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
eirebilly wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I was wondering... did EJ call up Moore to try and deter Wales from capping him? I guess he qualifies for England on residency?

Surely the end decision lies with the player does it not? If Wales thought he had a future with them, then they would have approached him first? Maybe they did and he still chose England?

Ummm nobody is saying the decision doesn't lie with the player
. It just seems unusual for England to call up U20 players when they have a plethora of options, although saying that EJ previously did it with Marcus Smith so maybe it's their new thing. I doubt we'd have approached him unless we get a lock injury crisis and in that scenario it's likely he could earn a cap. I don't think England will cap him just yet. I'm not really sure what his feelings are towards representing the land of his fathers.... but I hear he's a good catch so I doubt we'd say no.

* He's actually an 8. Why didn't we put the offer out there?! We like have one and a half options at 8.

I think the question mark in what I said should have given away that I was asking not accusing...

I was merely thinking that the player, if he was fully for Wales, would have rejected the offer to represent England. If the player has equal allegiances to both England and Wales then England have done nothing wrong in approaching him first and Wales have probably been caught napping somewhat in not approaching him.

The other side of the coin is, maybe Wales did approach him but he felt more strongly towards the English which is why he accepted.
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 6:19 pm

Well in that case I'm not sure why you were asking either, seems a bit obvious that the decision lies with the player.

I'm assuming he moved to England at a young age (like Moriarty) and ended up in their academy, but again like Moriarty he's not tied in at this point which left Ross with the opportunity to play for Wales. Perhaps EJ is trying to avoid a situation like that. Either way I do think we have missed an opportunity if haven't approached him. I haven't read anything to say we have approached him either. In the end it might come down to Moore believing where his best chance to play international rugby is, even if he is good enough I don't think that's with England, I think it's with Wales as we're low on No.8's.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by eirebilly on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 6:23 pm

It was a question regarding his allegiances, as explained, nothing sinister mikey.
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by lostinwales on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 6:50 pm

I have no idea how things will pan our with Moore but you'd have to think it is most likely he'll do a Moriaty.

I can't remember the name but we had another England U20 8 (captain) who sort of went Wales post U20 but more or less disappeared.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Poorfour on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 7:41 pm

One observation: for Wales, the U20s is the second most senior International side and turning out for them commits you to Wales. For England, it's the Saxons, so playing for the U20s doesn't commit you. So if you have the option and any doubts about where you want to play your senior rugby, you'd pick England over Wales for U20.

Given that, it does make sense to look at promising U20s who are dual qualified early, and to understand their intentions. Though I guess it can backfire if you induct them into the tactics and they then pursue the other side of their heritage.

I think it's more likely that Eddie is simply following a natural instinct to focus on youth. With a couple of exceptions, he has shown a marked preference for younger players over more established ones, and I think there are two reasons for it.

Firstly, the quality of the English age grade system has improved dramatically over the last few years, and it's now producing players who have a much more complete skill set and a common understanding of how to play. You get more bang for your buck by looking at the youngsters.

Secondly, and I suspect more importantly, is coachability. Eddie has stressed that that is one of the key characteristics he is looking for, and I think what he's doing is picking players who have the right characteristics and points of difference for the style of play he wants, but are young enough that he can correct faults before they get set in.

Gabriel Ibitoye is a good example. He showed in the U20s last season that he's got distinctive pace and power - but is a weak defender. England have said that they can fix that. They ought to have been able to do the same for Christian Wade - but it seems they got to him too late.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by The Oracle on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 8:47 pm

I've just been reading about another one: Carwyn Tuipolotu (what a name!). Born in Wales to a Tongan (ex rugby pro) father but moved to England for school and played/playing for Newcastle Falcons academy. But recently picked for Wales U18s and apparently being considered for  the Scarlets academy. So who knows!

It's all swings and roundabouts. Annoying for teams and systems that spend time developing players, but that's pro sport I guess. As long as it's a bit 2-way then it all evens up in the end, roughly.
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by doctor_grey on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 10:12 pm

The Oracle wrote:I've just been reading about another one: Carwyn Tuipolotu (what a name!). Born in Wales to a Tongan (ex rugby pro) father but moved to England for school and played/playing for Newcastle Falcons academy. But recently picked for Wales U18s and apparently being considered for  the Scarlets academy. So who knows!

It's all swings and roundabouts. Annoying for teams and systems that spend time developing players, but that's pro sport I guess. As long as it's a bit 2-way then it all evens up in the end, roughly.
In UK it seems to be to becoming more common to have roots in more than one UK nation. As people move around more, makes sense.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by lostinwales on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 11:32 pm

It is unlikely but still possible that in a couple of years we could have a team containing 2 vunipolas, an Umaga, a Tuilagi, a Solomona, a Hughes and a Roko.

And you know what - it's OK

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by LondonTiger on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 8:17 am

God bless Stephen Jones. Apparently England are doing OK, but this is as good as it will get unless players such as Cipriani, Robson, Cooper-Wooley, Attwood, Bassett, Wade, woodburn and Willis are not called up immediately.

His article had many valid points to make but was then spoiled by his usual hyperbole. To dismiss the likes of Marler, Cole, Lawes, Launchbury, Care, Ford, Joseph, Nowell and May as average while pushing the case for the above to be the guys to add some World Class lustre to the side is, well, interesting.

In an article bemoaning the lack of any players of real quality no mention was made of the guys who started for the Lions.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 8:46 am

He's a rugby version of katie hopkins or nigel farage. Has to make these stupid claims to keep relevant get talked about and keep getting paid.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by SecretFly on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 10:05 am

God bless Stephen Jones. The non-thinking man's rugby expert.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 10:20 am

Watching the u20s the other week a Cameron Redpath son of Bryan Redpath. playing for England and scoring a cracking try. 

Does any one think he will convert to Scotland team?...He seems a gem of a player for the future.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by doctor_grey on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 2:05 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's a rugby version of katie hopkins or nigel farage. Has to make these stupid claims to keep relevant get talked about and keep getting paid.
I get your point, but it might be a little bit of a reach to compare Stephen Jones to Katie Hopkins or Farage.  He does appear myopic, biased, and frequently out to lunch.   And sometimes his points seem to be hatched in the ozone.  I think he can be good, and sometimes actually is.  But it almost seems as if he stirs the pot just because he digs it or on days where his synapses are napping.  

On the other hand, Katie Hopkins, a creature of the times in which we live, social media, and the end of days, can be an endless source of entertainment: https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/katie-hopkins-detained-south-africa-11977548


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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 2:50 pm

Yeah he's not hateful just a similar controversy makes money aim.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by doctor_grey on Sun 18 Feb 2018, 3:55 pm

Certainly agree with that.

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