England Six Nations Thread

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England Six Nations Thread

Post by ChequeredJersey on Tue 13 Feb 2018, 5:53 pm

First topic message reminder :

GeordieFalcon wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:In that case LIW, Ill put my money on it being the following.

6 Lawes
7 Robshaw
8 Hughes

Hughes off knackered after about 50/55 mins.
Robshaw to 8 then Underhill on at 7.

I cant see Jones bringing Mercer up just yet.

Haskell is back in to so may come into the reckoning as starter or bench cover although might be harsh on Underhill.

Could be tried & tested.

6. Robshaw
7. Haskell
8. Hughes

Lawes covering bench

I think we need to Focus on Underhill now. Unless we're REALLY struggling for an 8, then possibly pop Haskell in.

6 Robshaw
7 Underhill
8 Haskell


Robshaw, Frodo, Hughes. Hask on bench
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by nlpnlp on Sun 18 Mar 2018, 6:45 pm

Significant factors which have hampered England:

1. A large core of England players coming back from the Lions tour tired.
2. Point 1 exacerbated by the fact Eddie Jones has minimal control of England players compared to Ireland and Wales.
3. The style of rugby played in the Aviva does not encourage attacking open rugby and a lack of contest at the breakdown.
4. Injuries to key – irreplaceable players – Billy Vunipola, Ben Youngs and Manu Tuilagi.

I don’t think EJ can be blamed for any of the above. He is guilty of some issues – picking Lawes in the back row, not having adequate scrum half resources, being too loyal to players not in form, not having a fulltime attack coach, etc.

But the hysteria after losing 3 games is quite laughable. Who has Eddie Jones overlooked who would be a certain starter for England - are Marcus Smith, Joe Simmonds or Jack Willis with a handful of games under their belts the saviours of England?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by stub on Sun 18 Mar 2018, 6:49 pm

Fly, suspected that I might be off the mark there but I didn’t think for a minute that you were trying to be offensive - apologies if that’s the impression I gave. I think that I was influenced by the inevitable reaction that follows these events. Sack everyone, start again, Itoje has become a donkey, etc etc. It gets tiresome and it’s been a long weekend on many levels!

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by catchweight on Sun 18 Mar 2018, 9:04 pm

I think Eddie Jones was over praised initially with England. He had top players who were all performing. Now an awful lot of Englands players have lost form. I dont think it can be pinned on Jones.

If you look domestically at how these players are performing, many are well below their best. The English club sides performed poorly in Europe. Only Saracens qualified by the skin of their teeth and they look much less formidable than the last coupe of years.

Most of the England players are playing for club sides that are not even in the top 4 in the prem. I think its hard to suddenly turn all of this around at international level. Its tough place for Jones to be in. Does he make wholesale changes to a team that a year ago was flying?

I do think that the player management afforded to the Irish players definately gives them an advantage in terms of freshness that is worth consideration in England. Even if they utilise only for World Cup years or something like that.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by robbo277 on Mon 19 Mar 2018, 9:38 am

The players were obviously knackered after the Lions tour and the clubs want to use them as much as they can, however Eddie didn't give the players any time off over the Autumn, still picked the tired players over alternatives and (I'm guessing) didn't compromise on his hard training style.

Hartley and Launchbury didn't go on the Lions tour and didn't look up to speed. Marler and Haskell were midweekers and have had a few weeks off before the tournament, and again didn't look fresh. Have they been overworked? Are the players actually more tired than their counterparts, or do the players just look tired because they're ineffective?

Do we need more Chiefs in the squad, considering they have been the best team in England for the past couple of years? Simmonds and Nowell are pretty set in now, and Hepburn, Cowan-Dickie, Williams and Armand all got limited squad time - could we have used them more? Should Slade have got a run in the centres?

Watching the Under 20s on Friday, Ibitoye looks like a potential star, although wing is a strong area for England. However, with Nowell and Daly able to play centre and Watson able to play full back, space might open up if Eddie wants to change his options at 13 or 15.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by hugehandoff on Mon 19 Mar 2018, 10:16 am

All the points made for England's decline are very valid. Not sure if England will ever have central contracts, but that would surely help? But it is also important not to panic. A clear review once the dust has settled. Most importantly Eddie is learning about the players as we all are. I was all for dropping Brown last year due to his inability to pass to his wingers, but I was screaming for him to start on Sat and Ireland's first try really reinforced that. Watson starting at 15 in South Africa or against Italy would have made more sense. I was also intrigued how England looked better once Ford came on even though he has had poor form all season. But then again T'eo is not exactly match sharp as he has not played many matches. Trying to establish our RWC 1st XV will not be easy. Daly clearly needs more touches on the ball as he is class. We will learn more in South Africa when hopefully our knackered Lions will be rested.

For the Autumn International I would like to see:

Mako
Hartley
Cole
Kruis
Itoje
Robshaw
Billy
T.Curry
Youngs
Ford
Farrell
Manu
Watson
May
Daly at 15

Subs
Marler
George
Sinckler
Lawes
Haskell
Care
Brown
T'eo/JJ

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 19 Mar 2018, 10:30 am

Billy Vunipola is amazing, but him not playing shouldn't hamstring a team who have more registered referees than Scotland has registered players!

Blaming the style of rugby in the prem is a better excuse than being without one player!

England's inability or unwillingness to compete for the ball at the breakdown has been their downfall. In some games it's been shown that you don't need to compete at the breakdown, for example when you beat NZ a few years ago, Robshaw and co simply smashed McCaw whenever he tried to jackal the ball. You did the same to Watson and Barclay at Twickenham last year.

I do feel that there is an element of fatigue in the argument. However it's not that valid an excuse when guys like Launchberry or Brown or Care who weren't involved in the Lions looked so ineffective too.

England are not a bad team, they are still a bloody good team, but Jones needs to address the balance of his team and stop picking giant lumps up front and really look at some rangey opensides.
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by TJ on Mon 19 Mar 2018, 10:36 am

I was also intrigued how England looked better once Ford came on even though he has had poor form all season

My view and its a controversial /minority one is because he is a much better passer than Farrell even when out of form.

Farrell at 10 sucks all the speed and space out of the england attack for two rasons. He stands very deep so a rush defence will hit anyone outside him well behind the gain line and he is so predictable - he either shovels the ball to the person outside him or kicks. Vary rarely does he do anything else.

I really think shoehorning Farrell into the side does far more harm than good. Farrell is a player who flatters to deceive as what he does is very good - its what he doesn't do that limits his game. He also misses far too many tackles and kicks away far too much attacking ball.

2 examples fromthe irish game. a good kick put Kearney under pressure on his own line. Kearney kicked but Farrell followed thru and hit Kearney hard in the air. 70m lost and result and Irish try. Farrell would havefound it very hard not to bump into Kearney but instead of fending him off he carried thru and tackled Kearny hard. Certain pen.

Also against Ireland he kicked twice on the Irish 10 m line with an overlap outside him. Yes he created one lovely try from a kick but he did it at least twice more wasting opportunity.

the other issues about the enland team are very true and a large part of it but also England seem to be playing the tactics from a few years ago and I think Farrell simply sucks all the pace adn creativity out of the england back line. The best backs moves did not go thru Farrell

Perhaps dropping farrell might just give him the kick up the backside to improve his game.

Farrell is not a 12. He is a 10 and not the best 10 in England

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Barney McGrew did it on Mon 19 Mar 2018, 10:45 am

Not convinced by the post-Lion's player fatigue argument - pretty sure quite a few Irish lads went on the same tour and they won a GS. Losing a few key players has been a problem, but this just suggests that while we have great depth, in a number of areas (such as BR, OHs & centre) we have depth without strength. EJ needs to work harder at developing these areas with his sections I think
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 19 Mar 2018, 11:13 am

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Not convinced by the post-Lion's player fatigue argument - pretty sure quite a few Irish lads went on the same tour and they won a GS. Losing a few key players has been a problem, but this just suggests that while we have great depth, in a number of areas (such as BR, OHs & centre) we have depth without strength. EJ needs to work harder at developing these areas with his sections I think

I see your point......but, the Irish has been managed extremely well post Lions, the English guys have not. I read somewhere Farrell for example had played 6 times the amount of minutes that Sexton has post Lions tour. Here's a piece that is doing the rounds, although the Billy Vunipola stats can't be right....and he wasn't a Lion.


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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by robbo277 on Mon 19 Mar 2018, 11:17 am

Have you seen the graphic doing the rounds of players in the final test 23 and the days rest they got between that test and their next game?

Nowell, Te'o, Lawes, Sinckler, Itoje, Faletau and Watson were all back within about 8 weeks (around 56 days) - all Prem players

Vunipola, Farrell and Williams about 9 weeks (63 days) - all Sarries

Owens, Davies, George and Daly were back after 10 weeks (69-71 days)

Webb and Jones were back after 11 weeks (77 days)

The 6 Irish Lions McGrath, Furlong, O'Brien, Sexton, Stander and Murray all got 12 weeks (83-84 days)

For completeness, Warburton still hasn't played.

Not only did England have the largest number of players go deep to the end of the tour 10 opposed to 7 Welsh, 6 Irish and no Scots), they were pressed back into action quicker than players from other nations.

That's not a dig at any other nations or saying the deck is loaded, it's part of the game and our problem to overcome, just the way injuries are.

No, Jones can't control what the players do at their clubs, but he can manage their gametime and training loads with England. He could have given some players the Autumn off maybe a couple of rounds of the Six Nations. Williams and Faletau for instance weren't used until weeks 3 and 4 respectively.

We faded badly after the Wales game. Would he have got more out of players like Mako, Itoje and Farrell if they'd missed the first 2 games and come in firing for the Scotland game? With the benefit of hindsight, quite possibly.

As mentioned, there are other players who didn't look completely at the races, notably Hartley and Launchbury, which coupled with everything we know about Eddie Jones (including inviting Georgia down during an offweek) leads you to believe the players are probably being overworked.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by robbo277 on Mon 19 Mar 2018, 12:55 pm

hugehandoff wrote:For the Autumn International I would like to see:

Every shirt is up for grabs for me. This summer, I'd like to see something like:

Hepburn, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Launchbury, Ewels, Armand, Underhill, Vunipola
Youngs, Ford, Daly, Tuilagi, Slade, May, Watson
Hartley, Genge, Williams, Isiekwe, Simmonds, Care, Lozowski, Nowell

With player like Tom Curry, Maunder, Solomona and Ibitoye also in the touring party.

There are so many questions over the team:

Are the current tight 5 dynamic enough?
What's the best balanced back row we can pick?
Ford, Farrell or Ford and Farrell?
What's the best centre partnership?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 19 Mar 2018, 10:19 pm

robbo277 wrote:
hugehandoff wrote:For the Autumn International I would like to see:

Every shirt is up for grabs for me. This summer, I'd like to see something like:

Hepburn, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Launchbury, Ewels, Armand, Underhill, Vunipola
Youngs, Ford, Daly, Tuilagi, Slade, May, Watson
Hartley, Genge, Williams, Isiekwe, Simmonds, Care, Lozowski, Nowell

With player like Tom Curry, Maunder, Solomona and Ibitoye also in the touring party.

There are so many questions over the team:

Are the current tight 5 dynamic enough?
What's the best balanced back row we can pick?
Ford, Farrell or Ford and Farrell?
What's the best centre partnership?

I doubt we'll see Youngs, Vunipola or Hughes on the summer tour, they just won't recover in time and would be better served with a proper pre season.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by robbo277 on Mon 19 Mar 2018, 10:22 pm

Fair enough, I wasn't sure on their timescales. If they came back before the end of the season, I'd take both.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 3:50 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
robbo277 wrote:
hugehandoff wrote:For the Autumn International I would like to see:

Every shirt is up for grabs for me. This summer, I'd like to see something like:

Hepburn, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Launchbury, Ewels, Armand, Underhill, Vunipola
Youngs, Ford, Daly, Tuilagi, Slade, May, Watson
Hartley, Genge, Williams, Isiekwe, Simmonds, Care, Lozowski, Nowell

With player like Tom Curry, Maunder, Solomona and Ibitoye also in the touring party.

There are so many questions over the team:

Are the current tight 5 dynamic enough?
What's the best balanced back row we can pick?
Ford, Farrell or Ford and Farrell?
What's the best centre partnership?

I doubt we'll see Youngs, Vunipola or Hughes on the summer tour, they just won't recover in time and would be better served with a proper pre season.

Billy is rumoured to be back in 2 to 3 weeks. If he manages not to get injured again, he should be fine for the summer tour.....he's not played much rugby lately.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 11:59 am

Estimated 12 week recovery from mid January. He should be back before the end of the season and a broken arm shouldn't stop him from maintaining his fitness levels. True Billy should be back and in theory fit enough.

I hope we start looking at some more otions this summer. Sam James and Mallins as options at centre and fullback would be on my list.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by propdavid_london on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 12:25 pm

Robshaw for me is the only player who seemed to care and really get stuck in over the course of the 6N.
A rest would do a lot of the squad some good - how much of that will they get when they go back to their clubs! Not sure......

For Quins - a side that is really struggling they will want their internationals back and playing as much as possible to try and salvage a respectable finish to the season.


Learnings from the 6N for me -
Watson isn't an international 15.....excellent winger. We need to find another backup to Brown.
Care isn't a starter but excellent finisher. We need to add another backup to the squad.
Lawes isn't a back rower.
Players a knackered and need a decent off season - will they get it when summer tours are planned followed up with Nov tests?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 12:27 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
robbo277 wrote:
hugehandoff wrote:For the Autumn International I would like to see:

Every shirt is up for grabs for me. This summer, I'd like to see something like:

Hepburn, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Launchbury, Ewels, Armand, Underhill, Vunipola
Youngs, Ford, Daly, Tuilagi, Slade, May, Watson
Hartley, Genge, Williams, Isiekwe, Simmonds, Care, Lozowski, Nowell

With player like Tom Curry, Maunder, Solomona and Ibitoye also in the touring party.

There are so many questions over the team:

Are the current tight 5 dynamic enough?
What's the best balanced back row we can pick?
Ford, Farrell or Ford and Farrell?
What's the best centre partnership?

I doubt we'll see Youngs, Vunipola or Hughes on the summer tour, they just won't recover in time and would be better served with a proper pre season.

Billy is rumoured to be back in 2 to 3 weeks. If he manages not to get injured again, he should be fine for the summer tour.....he's not played much rugby lately.

And Lendrid is currently scheduled to be back in contention for the game against Saints on 14th April.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by robbo277 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 12:36 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Robshaw for me is the only player who seemed to care and really get stuck in over the course of the 6N.  
A rest would do a lot of the squad some good - how much of that will they get when they go back to their clubs! Not sure......

For Quins - a side that is really struggling they will want their internationals back and playing as much as possible to try and salvage a respectable finish to the season.


Learnings from the 6N for me -
Watson isn't an international 15.....excellent winger. We need to find another backup to Brown.
Care isn't a starter but excellent finisher. We need to add another backup to the squad.
Lawes isn't a back rower.
Players a knackered and need a decent off season - will they get it when summer tours are planned followed up with Nov tests?

I think a couple of players will be given a rest, but I don't think it won't be the wholesale resting that some of us are hoping for.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Barney McGrew did it on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 12:39 pm

There have to be lessons to be learnt from our current boom-to-bust rollercoaster. From booted out of our home RWC in the pool stages, to GS then 6N championship, to 5th (our lowest in the 6N). This is not the trajectory of a team moving steadily to another RWC, and makes me worry it’s not a blip but a bit of trend. Eddie has previously got the best of our players but I’m not convinced he’s yet shown the vision or ability to actually build a #1 side. I’m wouldn't dump him, but he really needs the help of some top coaches. And maybe to take a few more risks in selection.
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 12:43 pm

robbo277 wrote:
hugehandoff wrote:For the Autumn International I would like to see:

Every shirt is up for grabs for me. This summer, I'd like to see something like:

Hepburn, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Launchbury, Ewels, Armand, Underhill, Vunipola
Youngs, Ford, Daly, Tuilagi, Slade, May, Watson
Hartley, Genge, Williams, Isiekwe, Simmonds, Care, Lozowski, Nowell

With player like Tom Curry, Maunder, Solomona and Ibitoye also in the touring party.

There are so many questions over the team:

Are the current tight 5 dynamic enough?
What's the best balanced back row we can pick?
Ford, Farrell or Ford and Farrell?
What's the best centre partnership?

I know other players have been mentioned, but also Watson will be out for 6 months according to the latest update.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by propdavid_london on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 1:24 pm

England seemed to play better when Glen Ellia was on-board....I wonder if there is any scope to bring him in permanently.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 1:34 pm

Very wide range of reactions among the pundit class.

Stuart Barnes on The Ruck podcast says we can now rule out winning the World Cup. He also says the question of whether Jones should be retained needs to be raised. He's not saying Jones should definitely be sacked, but that an honest review of the tournament must look at whether he's the right coach to take England forward. His argues that Jones was able to quickly revitalize players at a low ebb, so it might be possible for someone else to do that now.

Barnes wants to sound big - and he might yet turn out to be correct - but he gives no practical advice. How, for instance, would you decide Jones isn't the right man now, if the results alone aren't enough? Perhaps Barnes imagines Jones might emulate Brendan Venter, and stuff some biscuits in his mouth.


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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by robbo277 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 1:49 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
robbo277 wrote:
hugehandoff wrote:For the Autumn International I would like to see:

Every shirt is up for grabs for me. This summer, I'd like to see something like:

Hepburn, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Launchbury, Ewels, Armand, Underhill, Vunipola
Youngs, Ford, Daly, Tuilagi, Slade, May, Watson
Hartley, Genge, Williams, Isiekwe, Simmonds, Care, Lozowski, Nowell

With player like Tom Curry, Maunder, Solomona and Ibitoye also in the touring party.

There are so many questions over the team:

Are the current tight 5 dynamic enough?
What's the best balanced back row we can pick?
Ford, Farrell or Ford and Farrell?
What's the best centre partnership?

I know other players have been mentioned, but also Watson will be out for 6 months according to the latest update.

Yep, saw that one after my post.

It raises a question. Does Jones use Brown, or try another option? Whether he sees Watson as his next 15 will probably help make that decision.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by robbo277 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 1:53 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Very wide range of reactions among the pundit class.

Stuart Barnes on The Ruck podcast says we can now rule out winning the World Cup. He also says the question of whether Jones should be retained needs to be raised. He's not saying Jones should definitely be sacked, but that an honest review of the tournament must look at whether he's the right coach to take England forward. His argues that Jones was able to quickly revitalize players at a low ebb, so it might be possible for someone else to do that now.

Barnes wants to sound big - and he might yet turn out to be correct - but he gives no practical advice. How, for instance, would you decide Jones isn't the right man now, if the results alone aren't enough? Perhaps Barnes imagines Jones might emulate Brendan Venter, and stuff some biscuits in his mouth.


Wrong.

We can rule out going into the World Cup number one ranked team in the world, as it is very unlikely from here.

Rule out winning a cup tournament that hasn't even started yet? Ridiculous.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by TightHEAD on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 2:07 pm

No need to panic. 

But we have to make sure the players most likely to be involved with England team are rested/managed better.

We need to cut down on all the gym work these guys are doing as to me they look too bulky and slow, any positives of our guys being stronger than the opposition are being lost as the opposition look quicker and appear to be fitter.  Its not like we are smashing scrums or owning anyone in the contact area to continue in this way.

Maybe take some time out to work on planned moves as to me we didn't seem to have any that was well executed or thought out all 6 nations apart from an early attack vs Italy in game 1.
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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by carpet baboon on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 4:30 pm

The problem England have is the PRL. There is no way in hell they will allow players to be rested.
Well one way, but that would involve the RFU giving control of the international set up to the PRL. And that would be bad. For everyone

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by yappysnap on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 6:15 pm

robbo277 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
robbo277 wrote:
hugehandoff wrote:For the Autumn International I would like to see:

Every shirt is up for grabs for me. This summer, I'd like to see something like:

Hepburn, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Launchbury, Ewels, Armand, Underhill, Vunipola
Youngs, Ford, Daly, Tuilagi, Slade, May, Watson
Hartley, Genge, Williams, Isiekwe, Simmonds, Care, Lozowski, Nowell

With player like Tom Curry, Maunder, Solomona and Ibitoye also in the touring party.

There are so many questions over the team:

Are the current tight 5 dynamic enough?
What's the best balanced back row we can pick?
Ford, Farrell or Ford and Farrell?
What's the best centre partnership?

I know other players have been mentioned, but also Watson will be out for 6 months according to the latest update.

Yep, saw that one after my post.

It raises a question. Does Jones use Brown, or try another option? Whether he sees Watson as his next 15 will probably help make that decision.

I'd like to see Brown and Daly share the 15 shirt. Perhaps with Daly starting at wing/13 and then moving to bring on fresh legs.

Something like:

Youngs
Ford
May
Farrell
Daly
Nowell
Brown

Then later in games we go to

Care
Slade/Lozowski/Smith
May
Farrell
Te'o/Tuilagi/Marchant
Nowell
Daly


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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by SecretFly on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 7:14 pm

carpet baboon wrote:The problem England have is the PRL. There is no way in hell they will allow players to be rested.
Well one way, but that would involve the RFU giving control of the international set up to the PRL. And that would be bad. For everyone

Oh I know that fairytale!!!!!

Isn't that the one where the nice children have to be protected from an angry, dark, large and powerful wolf with red eyes that lurks in the grim woods encircling the little village with the nice curtains on the windows of quaint little houses ...and things.
And then the village mayor gets a bright idea and says that in order to protect all the little nice children, the villagers should lock the kids outside the village all night and let the wolf eat the lot of them.

And they all lived happily ever after.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 7:24 pm

If England just give Billy V a central contract that should be enough.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by stub on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 7:40 pm

A bad 6Ns is not the end of the world and I agree with the posters who are looking at things with a bit of balance and perspective. Certainly England need to learn from this and better player management would not be a bad place to start. I don’t think that is some sort of horror fairytale either ;-) - anything is possible with proper compensation I would think. England were looking good and were on great run even whilst not appearing to play particularly well at times - it’s not inconceivable that they can get back to providing a stern challenge to the best in the world in fairly quick time. A disappointing tournament but that’s about as far as it goes in my opinion.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Heaf on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 8:00 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Very wide range of reactions among the pundit class.

Stuart Barnes on The Ruck podcast says we can now rule out winning the World Cup. He also says the question of whether Jones should be retained needs to be raised. He's not saying Jones should definitely be sacked, but that an honest review of the tournament must look at whether he's the right coach to take England forward. His argues that Jones was able to quickly revitalize players at a low ebb, so it might be possible for someone else to do that now.

Barnes wants to sound big - and he might yet turn out to be correct - but he gives no practical advice. How, for instance, would you decide Jones isn't the right man now, if the results alone aren't enough? Perhaps Barnes imagines Jones might emulate Brendan Venter, and stuff some biscuits in his mouth.


Are they still giving Barnes air-time?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by stub on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 8:06 pm

Barnes - can’t abide him as a pundit.
Agree, it’s amazing that he’s still got a platform.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 9:49 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:If England just give Billy V a central contract that should be enough.
Corbisiero says he asked for one during Lancaster's time, because he wanted to cut down his game time. Lancaster was interested but the RFU said it was a non-starter.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by yappysnap on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 10:20 pm

stub wrote:A bad 6Ns is not the end of the world and I agree with the posters who are looking at things with a bit of balance and perspective. Certainly England need to learn from this and better player management would not be a bad place to start. I don’t think that is some sort of horror fairytale either ;-)  - anything is possible with proper compensation I would think. England were looking good and were on great run even whilst not appearing to play particularly well at times - it’s not inconceivable that they can get back to providing a stern challenge to the best in the world in fairly quick time. A disappointing tournament but that’s about as far as it goes in my opinion.

Agree with this.

Biggest issue wasn't in the team but the coaches.

I feel Eddie sat on his laurels a little and expected a repeat of the last two seasons without any changes.

In hindsight we never should have gone with the three locks, we shouldn't have rushed Hughes back, and Wigglesworth was a terrible choice once Youngs was injured.

Those three selection issues, plus our tactics at the breakdown, and our interpretation of the referee were our undoing.

Sounds like a lot but it's not too much really.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by carpet baboon on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 9:49 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:If England just give Billy V a central contract that should be enough.
Corbisiero says he asked for one during Lancaster's time, because he wanted to cut down his game time. Lancaster was interested but the RFU said it was a non-starter.

The RFU would have said no as they knew the PRL wouldn't have allowed it.
The PRL are concerned with the PRL and want the best product available. So want the best player's playing as much as possible. Which is entirely fine.
But that doesn't work to well with the RFUs plans.
Personally I can't see much changing. If they are fit the clubs will start them. Kbackard for internationas? Not the PRLs problem

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 10:10 am

It has to be a balance. There are already some restrictions to games and when clubs have to release players and the relationship between clubs and rfu seems good. I'm sure that any negotiation between them for an extension of that agreement would start off on a good footing.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 10:46 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:If England just give Billy V a central contract that should be enough.
Corbisiero says he asked for one during Lancaster's time, because he wanted to cut down his game time. Lancaster was interested but the RFU said it was a non-starter.

That's interesting. I have been saying it for years, the RFU's big weakness is they have no control over the clubs. It really hamstrings them.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by robbo277 on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 11:29 am

A lot of energy has gone in from both sides to get an amicable relationship between the PRL and the RFU, and the EPS agreement is on the whole positive. However, I think where seeing when pushed to the extreme, the agreement breaks down slightly in terms of player welfare, and unfortunately player welfare isn't at the forefront of either party's minds.

How much further could the RFU push the EPS agreement? They'll never get as much control as they would with central contracts in place. And the PRL would never go for central contracts. Could they agree that for EPS players they limit the games they can play? Expand the EPS, say EPS are reserved for 12 internationals and 18 club games? Players then released on international weekends could play an additional club game? The clubs would then be managing their resources as best they saw fit, but with 6 European games and holding some back for knock-outs and play-offs, would the clubs be happy with their players playing as few as 7 regular season games of the 22?

If diplomacy was thrown out the window and it came to a war I think the RFU would "win" in that eventually they could impose central contracts, create RFU ran franchises and then bundle them into a small league or get in the Pro14 conference system and get the European places given to them for their franchises. The other unions would rather play with the RFU than PRL, and the RFU have the trump card of being able to give players signed to them international rugby.

But it would be bloody. It could end up with another split like we saw when union and league split. With some of the players drained away enticed by big paychecks, the quality would suffer. Would that be a price worth paying for central contracts, because if you think they're necessary than that might be how far you'd have to push it.

Realistically? Nothing will be changed and we can have this exact same conversation a few years down the line.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Fuzzy Dunlop on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 2:11 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:If England just give Billy V a central contract that should be enough.
Corbisiero says he asked for one during Lancaster's time, because he wanted to cut down his game time. Lancaster was interested but the RFU said it was a non-starter.

That's interesting. I have been saying it for years, the RFU's big weakness is they have no control over the clubs. It really hamstrings them.

I've been saying for years that the greatest strength the RFU have is the huge (and varied) pool of international quality players that the club system creates for them. The Premiership supplies the national squad with an absolute Poopie ton of qualified players (more than any other league?) getting good quality game time, it's up to the RFU to properly utilise this. The main problem this 6N was the backrow, but you can look at pretty much every single Prem team and see English qualified backrow talent throughout, it's not their fault if Jones fails to identify and select them. Chiefs alone could supply 3 better backrows than the ones Eddie has gone for this 6N.

If you asked rugby fans around the world to give you one positive about English rugby I bet most would say strength in depth. If you asked for a weakness I imagine most would say selection or tactics. It looks to me like the club system is doing its job and the national setup is not.

I've seen the charts going round about the numbers of minutes played domestically by the English players and it does look bad. Tbh though I reckon it would've looked the same over the last 3 years. The problem seems to exist specifically during the Lions years and I'm not sure why it's on the clubs only to rest the players - especially considering England went to Argentina at the same time. Maybe Itoje or Kruis would've played less if Isiekwe had a proper break and pre-season at Saracens, Cole with Genge, Farrell with Lozowski. At the very least the players which were basically guaranteed to start the AI and 6N should've been left out. Nothing new was learned about Robshaw, Brown, Care, Launchbury, Ford, Etc.

Basically England could've gone into the AI with a squad made up entirely of players who had been rested over the summer or were unlikely to feature in the 6N. That squad could've been just as good (if not better...) than the already half-knackered one which was used. Perhaps a decent compromise would be that the RFU can select an extra pool of 20-30 players during international windows purely for resting. That way the 6N players would have had a break and England would have tried out new combos, win-win. Who knows, maybe they wouldn't have had to resort to an approaching 35 year old Richard Wigglesworth to replace Youngs if they had used that time to look at other SHs.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 2:23 pm

You can still have a club system that creates lots of players that the RFU have control over. Having lots of players is easily achievable in a country with a population of over 50 million.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Fuzzy Dunlop on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 3:07 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:You can still have a club system that creates lots of players that the RFU have control over.

Of the same quality and quantity that the current system provides? And most importantly without spending money that would otherwise have gone towards grass roots rugby, women's rugby, 7s, etc.?

For the most part the current set-up works well. A bit of give and take from both sides is all that's needed, anything more than that and you're risking a lot for very little gain IMO.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 3:13 pm

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:You can still have a club system that creates lots of players that the RFU have control over.

Of the same quality and quantity that the current system provides? And most importantly without spending money that would otherwise have gone towards grass roots rugby, women's rugby, 7s, etc.?

For the most part the current set-up works well. A bit of give and take from both sides is all that's needed, anything more than that and you're risking a lot for very little gain IMO.

I would have thought the quality player produced in England could be significantly better. For all your player numbers the league cant produce a single world class out and out 7?

The AP doesn't seem to produce many first class out halves either.

Ireland and New Zealand are able to produce an equivalent standard elite group with significantly less overall players. What do they have in common?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 3:39 pm

You're able to narrow the search quickly and thus those players get good game time to develop fully.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by robbo277 on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 4:48 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You're able to narrow the search quickly and thus those players get good game time to develop fully.

This is it.

Taking England and Ireland as an example:

If you have 12 professional clubs vs 4 professional clubs, England are going to have three times as many club quality players.

However, when you look at European level and then test level, the ratio narrows to about 2:1 and then 1:1.

We're capable of filling 12 clubs with club standard players because we have a large rugby population filtering through 12 academies churning out a large number of players and then 276 matchday spots each week to give players a chance.

Yes, we have 12 clubs producing players to for England to pick from, but there's a bottleneck when you get to international level. Simply, we don't have 3x the test experience to give out so can't produce 3x as many test players.

England's strength in depth isn't that we have 2 or 3 high class test players in each position, more that we can take our 6th choice tighthead, 8th choice flanker and 5th choice 12 to Argentina and win a two test series - because they're at that club (Collier, Wilson and Francis for those keeping score at home).

This isn't a criticism of Ireland, we do have more resources so I'm not trying to say we're hard done by. It's just depth at international level doesn't directly scale down from population ratios, player ratios or even club ratios.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by Scarpia on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 5:10 pm

But the other side of the coin is that 12 clubs should produce greater depth of players for when your players are tired. Perhaps the RFU will soon be seeking changes for the 6N like they did for European Club rugby when they decided that WRU, SRU and IRFU weren't playing fair. A boycott threat on the way?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by stub on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 5:16 pm

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:You can still have a club system that creates lots of players that the RFU have control over.

Of the same quality and quantity that the current system provides? And most importantly without spending money that would otherwise have gone towards grass roots rugby, women's rugby, 7s, etc.?

For the most part the current set-up works well. A bit of give and take from both sides is all that's needed, anything more than that and you're risking a lot for very little gain IMO.

I think this is spot on.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 6:55 pm

Silly scarpia.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by stub on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 7:10 pm

He has to get his kicks where he can 7.5!

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by yappysnap on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 8:16 pm

Like I said above it wasn't really the players on the day. It was the coaches tactics and selections that cost us.

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

Post by SecretFly on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 9:35 pm

Is it a case that without Billy V, the tactics just don't work?

In short, has Jones created a Gatlandball blueprint with England and it's kinda lost without its 'Jamie Roberts' - and like the criticisms of Gatland, Jones can't come up with a plan B?

England have too much talent to be a One Man team but have they materialised into a team longing for the return of one man to make the entire machine run smoothly again?

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Re: England Six Nations Thread

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