6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

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6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by Pot Hale on Sun 11 Mar 2018, 9:05 am

First topic message reminder :

I’ve always thought that England are a very good team and their fans are lovely and the most popular.

Feel free to add your own thoughts as we approach next weekend’s match as we travel over to visit them and celebrate with them.  And I’m sure that they’ll be as welcoming and fun-filled as they always are whenever we play them.  

As we all know, it’s only a game and sure it doesn’t matter who wins.....


Lovely England Team

Watson, May, Joseph, Te'o, Daly, Farrell, Wigglesworth, Simmonds, Haskell, Robshaw, Kruis, Itoje, Sinckler, Hartley, Mako

George, MArler, Cole, Launchbury, Armand, Care, Ford, Brown

Super Controlling Unbelievable Mauling Monster Yeti Irish Team

Kearney, Earls, Ringrose, Aki, Stockdale, Sexton Murray, Stander, Leavy, O'Mahony, Ryan, Henderson, Furlong, Best, Healy.

Reps: Cronin, McGrath, Porter, Toner, Murphy, Marmion, Carbery, Larmour.


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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 4:25 am

This was banded around before the England game too Fly. I seen something about Ireland having a lot of top Ints but not many world class players....where as England had more world class and the rest were not quite top Ints.....totally bizarre if I'm honest.

What the hell does World Class mean???? Some say best in position. If so you could argue for Furlong, Murray, Sexton.

Some say the top 3 in each position....then it opens up; Furlong, Best, Healy, SOB, Stander, POM, Murray, Sexton.....

It's a bit of a joke to be honest and completely subjective. All I know is Ireland have an excellent pack, quality halfbacks and an effective backline. More importantly, they know what they're doing and they make very few mistakes.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by TJ on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 8:12 am

Depends really what yo mean by world class. to me its being in the best two in the world in your position and showing that over a period of time.

What I think Ireland have is not necessarily a team of stars but a team who know how to work to their strengths, that are very cohesive and that have the right mindset. thus as a team they are MORE than the sum of their parts. Englands issue is they are LESS than the sum of their parts. Ireland also have no obvious weakpoints as a team

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by George Carlin on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 8:24 am

SecretFly wrote:First the praise, then the bites.

Gats praises then bites and now Guscott bites:

"Ireland, arguably, do not have any world class players in their Grand Slam-winning squad."

Jesus Christ... it's tough going.  A few on that Irish squad have beaten every top team on the planet, they've beaten England twice in two years, they won all their games in the Six Nations this year, they've won three Championship now in five years, some are multiple European Cup (HEC) Champions with their Province, but they're still not the equals of who?  English players, Scottish players, Welsh players, Australian players, South African players?

It really hurts some people to have to admit that being best/or 'world class' isn't always about squirting around the field at speed like headless chickens on PEDs.

Murray not world class?  Sexton not world class?  POM not world class? Stander not world class? Henderson not world class?  Ringrose not world class?
Who the hell are they being judged against?  Hogg, Itoje, Farrell, Ford, Hartley, North, Halfpenny, etc, etc?
What the hell have those players won and who have they beaten to drop our players into also-ran bargain buckets?

World Class Players indeed.
"You could argue there are better scrum-halves and fly-halves than Conor Murray and Johnny Sexton who would get into a world XV."

They don't need to get into some fantasy world XV chosen by some set of expert British rugby journalists I presume?  
They're already in some of the best 'club' sides in all of Europe.  They'd get into a side chosen by one of the very best International coaches in World Rugby - they're already in it.  And they're already slap bang in the 2nd ranked side in the world.  They don't require an invitation to a fantasy XV, drawn up by a panel of journalistic excellence with Jeremy Guscott onboard.
Top rant Fly - well done.  Laugh

Trust me, it's worse being a Scotland fan. You start any comparison of players from a score of about -10 because Scotland cannot possibly be any good, can they? I mean, they were rubbish in the 90s and team form or players never change. Right? Right? etc.
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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 8:32 am

Just read the article....Guscott says world class as being selected in a World XV (presumably to play Mars in the Inter-planet championships next year). In that case.....I think I'd only really go for Furlong making the Earth side.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by carpet baboon on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 8:33 am

What I read is old Mr gusscott try to make himself relevant and justify the BBC paying him money.
And he's not the only one about, whos whoorish behaviour will change with the paycheck and who's handing it over.
But that's the news these days. Opinions sold to get views forget the facts, give em something juicey instead.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by carpet baboon on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 8:36 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Just read the article....Guscott says world class as being selected in a World XV (presumably to play Mars in the Inter-planet championships next year). In that case.....I think I'd only really go for Furlong making the Earth side.

So who else would be in the team? NZ for the other 14 spots?

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by The Oracle on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 8:46 am

What did Gatland say???
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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 8:50 am

carpet baboon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Just read the article....Guscott says world class as being selected in a World XV (presumably to play Mars in the Inter-planet championships next year). In that case.....I think I'd only really go for Furlong making the Earth side.

So who else would be in the team? NZ for the other 14 spots?

Not completely, but not far off. I'd go for:

1. Poirot
2. Coles/Creevy
3. Furlong
4. Retalick
5. Whitelock
6. Kaino/Isa
7. Pocock (back playing now....or Camara)
8. Read

9. Smith
10. Barrett
11. Ioane
12. SBW
13. Jones
14. Raka
15. Smith/Folau

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by TJ on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 9:10 am


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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by robbo277 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 9:32 am

carpet baboon wrote:What I read is old Mr gusscott try to make himself relevant and justify the BBC paying him money.
And he's not the only one about, whos whoorish behaviour will change with the paycheck and who's handing it over.
But that's the news these days. Opinions sold to get views forget the facts, give em something juicey instead.

Guscott also finished the article by saying he would reduce the number of replacements from 8 to 4, without going into any further detail why. Just a throw away two lines at the end.

Along with Woodward, he is one of my least favourite pundits. I wouldn't take him too seriously.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 9:35 am

Guscott is and always has been a total tube.

Sure if you pick only the 1st XV v Mars it will be dominated by New Zealand but is he seriously telling us
Murray and Sexton are not world class.
Murray is the best 9 in the world

No doubt in his deluded mind there are 4/5 World Class Englishman - just not playing well
As I say knobhead

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by rodders on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 10:02 am

Commiserations England.

I have to say I was extremely confident that we would win.... but the moment I was sure was when Owen Farrell kicked the ball into the back of James Haskell's head.

Great performance, Conor Murray was imperious but not sure what Leavy has to do to win motm, he's been my player of the tournament.
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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 10:15 am

rodders wrote:Commiserations England.

I have to say I was extremely confident that we would win.... but the moment I was sure was when Owen Farrell kicked the ball into the back of James Haskell's head.

Great performance, Conor Murray was imperious but not sure what Leavy has to do to win motm, he's been my player of the tournament.

Haha. Classic.

To me Farrell is such a hit and miss player. Reminds me a bit of Rog, imperious one day, a liability the next. Irelands first try came directly from a brain fart late tackle by Farrell which gave Ireland a penalty and route back to Englands 22.

In fact he was virtually omnipresent in some of Englands worst moments in this years six nations. I wonder will that be forgotten along with his dire tackle statistics when the usual end of year plaudits come his way in November.

Leavy was my player of the tournament too. He is now Irelands best 7.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by carpet baboon on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 10:23 am

I think the problem with Farrell is I just don't think he's that rugby smart. He has all the skills to be one of the best, I just don't see the rugby intelligence needed to get there

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by marty2086 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 10:25 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
Leavy was my player of the tournament too. He is now Irelands best 7.

To be fair it's a close call regarding the best 7 as it is with player of the tournament, any other year about 5 or 6 Irish players would be winners of it

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 10:25 am

I think thats a fair comment

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by rodders on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 10:28 am

Just to clarify, I was criticizing James Haskell's head, rather than Owen Farrells' kick.
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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by marty2086 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 10:31 am

carpet baboon wrote:I think the problem with Farrell is I just don't think he's that rugby smart. He has all the skills to be one of the best, I just don't see the rugby intelligence needed to get there

I disagree, I think he has the game intelligence but has brain farts due to frustration and an inability to channel his aggression properly. I think Hartley has similar issues though I would question his intelligence

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by SecretFly on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 10:35 am

Irish player of the tournament.  

Henshaw.

He sacrificed himself in the second game and because of his loss, all kinds of weird and wonderful magic happened that could never have been planned.  He started the ball rolling on this...well, rolling tide of centres that came and went - one with just the right ingredients to do a job before he got injured too, to be replaced with another one who had just the right ingredients to steady the ship and finish the job Henshaw had started five games before him.

But as I say, a lot of strange team concoctions happened because of that one injury to Henshaw in the first second game.

He took one for the team whilst scoring a try.

The other players - too tied into each other to isolate one.


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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 10:35 am

To me Farrell isnt a great out half. England were a bit like the Lions fairly ineffective with Farrell at 10. Ford made a big difference when he came on.

I reckon Farrell is a better 12 but a defensive liability at 12. He is a very good player that doesnt quite fit into one position.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by SecretFly on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 11:33 am

I think Marty has Farrell down.  He has a fury in him to be always doing the best work - all the time - and is so conscious of wanting people are aware of it.  Like any player I suppose, you want to prove that you can do the job you're given better than anyone else.

But the temperament then does get in the way because he boils, internally and externally, when things don't go his way. In that sense he's not a lot unlike our own passion pump Sexton.  
Sexton broods and broods and broods.  It's getting increasingly interesting to hear his thoughts.  They say O'Gara was honest to the bone but Sexton is following him.  He didn't think twice about ruining people's perceptions of that final week between winning the title and taking the Slam.  He said people kept either telling him to be or thinking he should be enjoying the week but he said nope, it was bluntly a horrible week really given that he was so nervous and conscious of what was coming.

So Farrell strikes me as the same kind of character.  Now sometimes that fury of the mind can work against Sexton but I think he channels those moments when things don't go right for him, or when he feels embarrassed by a moment of weakness etc etc... I think he can control it better than Farrell and channel it better to improve and maybe at this point to simply cool down and think his way through his form dip.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 11:40 am

His kicking has been off from.what it could be. Not sure Farrell has lacked any form elsewhere though.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by SecretFly on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 11:45 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:His kicking has been off from.what it could be. Not sure Farrell has lacked any form elsewhere though.

Perhaps form is not the right word
...rashness?

The charge in at Kearney was to let Kearney know he wasn't going to get an easy game (fair enough) but it wasn't the right way to do it or timed the right way to keep it legal. Penalties are problems for all sides. Keeping the numbers down are what all players need to be conscious of.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by robbo277 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 11:48 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Guscott is and always has been a total tube.

Sure if you pick only the 1st XV v Mars it will be dominated by New Zealand but is he seriously telling us
Murray and Sexton are not world class.
Murray is the best 9 in the world

No doubt in his deluded mind  there are 4/5 World Class Englishman - just not playing well
As I say knobhead

I think he had Billy Vunipola, Farrell and Daly as world class Englishmen in a different article? From memory, I could be wrong. And I'm not sure if he had the same stringent definition of world class, but those are the ones he touted.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 11:55 am

Ah. On another day you get away with that fly everyone puts a bit of niggle in you sometimes see them given some times not.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by SecretFly on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 12:04 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah. On another day you get away with that fly everyone puts a bit of niggle in you sometimes see them given some times not.

Not in a big game where the eyes of the world are on you - and more camera angles than a hedgehog has spikes!

He's the kind of player I like - passion. Hell even auld Brown is a player I respect, even though he'd drive me nuts playing against him with his attitude. But it's passion... his heart and soul is in the game.
Farrell is the kind of 'angry' player I like but I do think he lets it control him too much. He needs to put a bridle on it and direct it better.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 12:52 pm

I do disagree. I don't think he even gets close to the line most games let alone cross it. I think the ref wanted to ensure there were no late hits on the 9s and 10s and by extension here the 15 but hey ho yu win some you lose some.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by SecretFly on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 12:59 pm

But sure it was a late hit 7. A clear one in the biggest game of the NH year.

Of course the ref was going to catch it because if he didn't, he knew a camera would and he'd have it in his ear to look at something again.

I didn't say he familiarly crosses the line, I said his intensity frustrations can hamper his game. Maybe he's mellowing and you'd know more about that than I, but he's had his moments of mist.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by marty2086 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 1:01 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Guscott is and always has been a total tube.

Sure if you pick only the 1st XV v Mars it will be dominated by New Zealand but is he seriously telling us
Murray and Sexton are not world class.
Murray is the best 9 in the world

No doubt in his deluded mind  there are 4/5 World Class Englishman - just not playing well
As I say knobhead

I've never understood the argument of a player being world class based on who would make a world XV, that means there are automatically 15 world class players at any one time and someone isn't world class because someone else in their position might have an edge on them

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 1:06 pm

marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Guscott is and always has been a total tube.

Sure if you pick only the 1st XV v Mars it will be dominated by New Zealand but is he seriously telling us
Murray and Sexton are not world class.
Murray is the best 9 in the world

No doubt in his deluded mind  there are 4/5 World Class Englishman - just not playing well
As I say knobhead

I've never understood the argument of a player being world class based on who would make a world XV, that means there are automatically 15 world class players at any one time and someone isn't world class because someone else in their position might have an edge on them

It's why the term has little meaning, it's completely subjective. Everyone's rules are different and everyone rates players differently.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 1:13 pm

marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Guscott is and always has been a total tube.

Sure if you pick only the 1st XV v Mars it will be dominated by New Zealand but is he seriously telling us
Murray and Sexton are not world class.
Murray is the best 9 in the world

No doubt in his deluded mind  there are 4/5 World Class Englishman - just not playing well
As I say knobhead

I've never understood the argument of a player being world class based on who would make a world XV, that means there are automatically 15 world class players at any one time and someone isn't world class because someone else in their position might have an edge on them

It could also mean that:

a) A player alternates between being World Class and not even if there levels stay the same but others fluctuate
b) If little competition you could have a poor(ish) player being deemed world class.

It is a subjective opinion (as Pooly points out in terms of definition then rating players). For me I view a player as world class if I feel they would get into most teams in the world. Thus from Ireland Furlong and Murray certainly count, with others in contention. A fit Billy V, imo of course, is the only contender from England.



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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 1:15 pm

Ah it was close fly. Just because it was a big game doesn't mean things like borderline late hits or knock ons won't be missed!

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 1:27 pm

I prefer how this Ireland team doesnt have stars. You are better off having a stromg team than "world class" players.

Ireland have a world class team and thats the main thing.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by rodders on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 1:45 pm

This is the same Gusgott who once called Ben Youngs the best player in the NH in any position?

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by The Oracle on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 1:48 pm

marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Guscott is and always has been a total tube.

Sure if you pick only the 1st XV v Mars it will be dominated by New Zealand but is he seriously telling us
Murray and Sexton are not world class.
Murray is the best 9 in the world

No doubt in his deluded mind  there are 4/5 World Class Englishman - just not playing well
As I say knobhead

I've never understood the argument of a player being world class based on who would make a world XV, that means there are automatically 15 world class players at any one time and someone isn't world class because someone else in their position might have an edge on them


For once I agree with Marty!  World Class for me means being one of the best in your position in the world.  There could be 10 awesome opensides in the world and they could all be 'world class' if they were around the same level in terms of performance and influence on the game, and that would be fine.  Sometimes there might only be a couple of world class players in a position.  Again, that's fine too.  But saying they'd be world class if they made the first XV is too restrictive for me and ignores players equally as good.

The difficulty is also in comparing players which can be very subjective and difficult to do at times.  Not all 7s have the same attributes.  It's then like a game of Top Trumps and someone will claim a player is better than another because he is better in a certain area while ignoring his weaknesses (e.g. Richie McCaw scores highly in Top Trumps on 'Magic' (91/100) and 'Conning Refs' (98) but might score poorly in 'link play' and 'Speed' compared to, say, Justin Tipuric!).
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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by marty2086 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 1:58 pm

The Oracle wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Guscott is and always has been a total tube.

Sure if you pick only the 1st XV v Mars it will be dominated by New Zealand but is he seriously telling us
Murray and Sexton are not world class.
Murray is the best 9 in the world

No doubt in his deluded mind  there are 4/5 World Class Englishman - just not playing well
As I say knobhead

I've never understood the argument of a player being world class based on who would make a world XV, that means there are automatically 15 world class players at any one time and someone isn't world class because someone else in their position might have an edge on them


For once I agree with Marty!  World Class for me means being one of the best in your position in the world.  There could be 10 awesome opensides in the world and they could all be 'world class' if they were around the same level in terms of performance and influence on the game, and that would be fine.  Sometimes there might only be a couple of world class players in a position.  Again, that's fine too.  But saying they'd be world class if they made the first XV is too restrictive for me and ignores players equally as good.

The difficulty is also in comparing players which can be very subjective and difficult to do at times.  Not all 7s have the same attributes.  It's then like a game of Top Trumps and someone will claim a player is better than another because he is better in a certain area while ignoring his weaknesses (e.g. Richie McCaw scores highly in Top Trumps on 'Magic' (91/100) and 'Conning Refs' (98) but might score poorly in 'link play' and 'Speed' compared to, say, Justin Tipuric!).

Did you not say that last week too? Whistle

Everyone comes around to my way of thinking sooner or later thumbsup

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by marty2086 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 2:02 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Guscott is and always has been a total tube.

Sure if you pick only the 1st XV v Mars it will be dominated by New Zealand but is he seriously telling us
Murray and Sexton are not world class.
Murray is the best 9 in the world

No doubt in his deluded mind  there are 4/5 World Class Englishman - just not playing well
As I say knobhead

I've never understood the argument of a player being world class based on who would make a world XV, that means there are automatically 15 world class players at any one time and someone isn't world class because someone else in their position might have an edge on them

It could also mean that:

a) A player alternates between being World Class and not even if there levels stay the same but others fluctuate
b) If little competition you could have a poor(ish) player being deemed world class.

It is a subjective opinion (as Pooly points out in terms of definition then rating players). For me I view a player as world class if I feel they would get into most teams in the world. Thus from Ireland Furlong and Murray certainly count, with others in contention. A fit Billy V, imo of course, is the only contender from England.



This is how I tend to see it, the ABs at times have had world class players not in their team, never mind not in a world XV. Some players on any given day can be world class or just dross but a world class player is consistent over years like Carter, McCaw, Sexton etc

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by profitius on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 9:05 pm

Whatever about being world class, what we do know is that was one of the youngest or thee youngest team Ireland put out in 6N history. So theres now a load of early 20s players who have a grand slam win and they're nowhere near their peak.
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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 9:07 pm

Aparently thats only the 2nd ever grand slam won in Twickers.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by SecretFly on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 9:26 pm

profitius wrote:Whatever about being world class, what we do know is that was one of the youngest or thee youngest team Ireland put out in 6N history. So theres now a load of early 20s players who have a grand slam win and they're nowhere near their peak.

And the other notable thing is that nobody raised an eyebrow, like the ever cautious Irish fan usually tends to do: "Oh it's too early for the lad.  If the game doesn't go well for him it could ruin his confidence for the rest of his entire life...entirely."

We've joined the 21st century.  The place for gifted young players is playing serious sport.  They are close to their prime, they are resilient, they heal quicker, they recover quicker from exertions, they tend to be faster, they tend to have courage without fear, they have greed to win, they have testosterone to pump them with pride and inner belief in themselves.  
Ireland now have a great mix of experience and this shower of young enthusiastic fliers that are already asserting their own future.  Some of them were already moving on from the GS in their heads hours after getting it and talking about other goals now!!!  Shocked  
Life happens very quickly when you're young.  Hopefully they take us on some very happy journeys over the next number of years.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by The Great Aukster on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 11:13 pm

Jerry knows on which side his bread is buttered, and it doesn't matter how truthful or accurate his assertions are - just that they bait the hooks to catch the clicks.

Schmidt's genius is that he has produced a world class team in a game that needs teamwork! If some players outshone others, that would be an indicator that his systems weren't working. Guys like Guscott can't accept such a synergy principle because that removes the individuality that is the lifeblood of journalism. Guscott needs boy's own heroes like Billy V to eulogise, place on a pedestal, and worship from all sides.

World class or not, the question is would Billy V make the current Ireland team? He is an amazing specimen of manhood and as a result a unique rugby player, but therein lies his weakness. If the team is built around having him, then it falls apart when the team doesn't have him. There simply is no like for like replacement, and everything else is a make-do arrangement awaiting his return.
Schmidt's team has to be able to interchange players, so while they undoubtedly have some licence to ad lib, they still have to follow the general script. By some of the definitions above there cannot be a plethora of interchangeable world class players ergo Irish players cannot rely on unique gifts they may individually possess as that would mean the team couldn't be covered. Paradoxically as the players find success through teamwork and initial suppression of maverick individuality, they then increasingly find outlets for that individuality within the team framework, and that's the phase that Ireland are moving into.

I praise Guscott for his lack of insight as it keeps his readers wondering what is really going on with England, and how they could be beaten by a bunch of journeymen!

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 4:02 am

profitius wrote:Whatever about being world class, what we do know is that was one of the youngest or thee youngest team Ireland put out in 6N history. So theres now a load of early 20s players who have a grand slam win and they're nowhere near their peak.

To be fair you normally average about 33, so it can't be that hard to do Wink

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by TJ on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 7:13 am

Schmidt's team has to be able to interchange players, so while they undoubtedly have some licence to ad lib, they still have to follow the general script.

I call this the Leinster lesson. a good few years ago when Leinster were dominating the pro 12 and to some extent the european cup they were the first team ( bar the ABs) I knew of who had this. Not a first team and subs but 30+ players from which you could have a team and sub in and out of it without much of a drop in quality and who could all play the same game. In the modern era where no player can play every club game this became essential. For me it was a big part of Leinsters dominence at that time. To be successful in the modern era as a club or country this is what you need. some teams ( england? ;-) ) have not learnt this lesson yet and indeed I think not having this is a part of the reason why the welsh pro 14 teams struggle - they try to keep all their stars but it does not leave them enough money for the wider squad

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 9:09 am

The age of the team is really exciting
The only slight worries re age of players are Best and even more Sexton.
We do not, as yet have equivalent replacements for them.
If Jackson stays in Ireland that will help somewhat and gives us decent 10 backup - otherwise a bit of a concern.
At hooker we have Scannell, Cronin, Herring, Tracey - all ok but none the equal of Best

Any other of the older players can go and more than adequately can cover

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by SecretFly on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 10:50 am

The problem with Best is that regardless of how good he is, his time is running out.  So we'll be forced to not only think about alternatives but play them very soon.  If Rory wants to go to a WC, and I'm sure he does, and if he's fit and in good form up to the WC (also very possible) then that's fine.
But if he then gets a serious injury in spring of next year and his WC hopes are shot - what do we have?  A player will have to drop in there to a central position and it'll be a little unfair to them to be learning how to control a game from the start as they step into a World Cup.
Now I'm sure there is lots of thoughts going on behind the scenes and prep work being done on the likelihood of Best not being able to make it - but solid hot gametime is what alternatives need.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 11:01 am

geoff999rugby wrote:The age of the team is really exciting
The only slight worries re age of players are Best and even more Sexton.
We do not, as yet have equivalent replacements for them.
If Jackson stays in Ireland that will help somewhat and gives us decent 10 backup - otherwise a bit of a concern.
At hooker we have Scannell, Cronin, Herring, Tracey - all ok but none the equal of Best

Any other of the older players can go and more than adequately can cover

I'm not that worried about Sexton and Best. History has shown that new caps or subs have been primed and ready to go when they are required so I expect that to be the case for whoever fills their shoes. Id nearly be worried about a replacement for Murray as there doesn't seem to be much in the way of quality scrum halves.

I like Jackson as a player but win lose or draw I doubt we will ever see him in an Ireland jersey again. Carbery is the future so hopefully he will go on loan to Ulster.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by robbo277 on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 11:18 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Aparently thats only the 2nd ever grand slam won in Twickers.

I heard it was the first instance of an away team securing a Grand Slam at Twickenham since France in 1981, so could well be the second one overall.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 11:20 am

Yes that's right and yes its only the 2nd one overall.

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by SecretFly on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 11:25 am

France '81 I think I heard.

No, I'm not going back to bloody wiki to find out!!! F**king wiki has me demented. The number of times I've had to resource that site this season to do me telemetries and detailed analysis of trend and records and scorelines and try counts.

Not going near that place again until next Spring.

Now I must check out wiki to see when Spring starts next year................

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

Post by SecretFly on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 11:26 am

oh robbo got it OK

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Re: 6 Nations: England v Ireland - Our Favourite Bestest Neighbours - 17 March 2018

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