6N Italy v Scotland 17th March 2018

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6N Italy v Scotland 17th March 2018

Post by BigGee on Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:56 am

First topic message reminder :

          
ITALY v SCOTLAND
17 March 2018
KO: 12h30 GMT
Stadio Olympico, Comune di Roma Capitale

Live on ITV monkey  picard

Referee: Pascal Gaüzère
Assistant 1: Someone else
Assistant 2: Someone else
TMO: Someone else

A. Head to Head
27 Feb 2016 Italy 20 - 36 Scotland
29 Aug 2015 Scotland 48 - 7 Italy
22 Aug 2015 Italy 12 - 16 Scotland
28 Feb 2015 Scotland 19 - 22 Italy
22 Feb 2014 Italy 20 - 21 Scotland
22 Jun 2013 Scotland 30 - 29 Italy
09 Feb 2013 Scotland 34 - 10 Italy
17 Mar 2012 Italy 13 - 6 Scotland
20 Aug 2011 Scotland 23 - 12
19 Mar 2011 Scotland 21 - 8 Italy

C. Teams

ITALY

TBC

SCOTLAND

TBC

Well, I really think we should be winning this one with our 1st TBP of the tournament. Italy have done nothing to change the perception of them being an unmitigated shambles.

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Re: 6N Italy v Scotland 17th March 2018

Post by Hazel Sapling on Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:00 pm

NeilyBroon wrote:Yes sorry forgot Scott too. Taylor had a good run at Sarries last season it's just this year he's been unlucky. I can't remember when Dunbar was fit for more than a game!

To be fair, it took me a minute. Started every game of the last 6 nations. Only missed 5 minutes of 1 game.

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Re: 6N Italy v Scotland 17th March 2018

Post by George Carlin on Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:37 am

Hazel Sapling wrote:Well we won.

The Italians showed something though. They have some good young players coming through. The flankers Negri and Polledri both looked like mainstays. They still need a future no 8 but the back row is looking much better balanced. The injuries in the backs are killer and certainly they need to keep building. There are signs though that Italy are finding some good players and the props in the first half will be around a while. They were giving Nel and Reid (experienced campaigners) fits. Certainly fitness is an issue that has still not gone away.

Scotlands defense was much too passive. Against Wales they were far too aggressive. That needs fixing and the ability to adjust when it is not working is a skill. Fitness won out today more than anything. That is not good enough against a team outside the top 10 (or on the edge of it)

- Front row got mullered in the first and the line-out was poor. Don't think it is the hookers after Brown and McInally were both having problems. Something to look for in future. We missed Berghan which sums up his level of play this 6 nations.
- Swinson was too small. Thought he would be fine and he was not. Gilchrist, Toolis, Cummings and R Gray are better internationals. Sad as he gives his all and does not shy away. J Gray did what he always does. The line-out calling has to improve.
- Back row struggled to slow the ball down and to influence the game. Wilson fairly anonymous and should have had the week off after last weekend's head knock. Denton was average. Strauss must be back into the reckoning.
- Laidlaw was awful for 60 and looked much better at 10. Russell was getting rubbish ball and blew hot-and-cold. Price offered impetus and wore the Italians down quickly when he came on.
- Grigg was ok. Jones was awful. Horne played well when he came on. None of those guys played well enough to stop Dunbar, Taylor or Bennett from coming in. Looking forward to Johnson as well who should qualify at the end of the year. Jones in particular needs to work on his defending. It is not good enough.
- Back 3 were average. They all did what they could. Did not create much from the little ball they got.
Yes basically all of this. ^

I only watched the second half (in a pub) and whilst I was very nervous, it did occur to me that if we pulled this one out of the pizza oven, it would be the makings of a much better team. I understand that we were useless in the first half but we were so much more controlled in the second half - we must have had something like 70% of possession. Will do a general post-6 nations post-mortum thread I think.
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Re: 6N Italy v Scotland 17th March 2018

Post by 21st Century Schizoid Man on Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:48 am

Grigg is not an i/c - he is a rather useful o/c. Bad choice by Toonie to play him out of position as the Italians then put more pressure on Hoggy as he tried to become an extra receiver in midfield. Tactic failed all game. Jones needs to work on defence as well as his attacking work. Horne brought so much more when he came on at 12 and ultimately that won us the game. Wilson clearly not right/fit also. Probably not the game for Toonie to experiment - is that not what summer tours are for ? The game cried out for a fully fit Alex Dunbar along with Pete Horne at 13& 12. Strange move by Toonie replacing the entire front row at ht !!!
Looks like yet another injury to Fras Brown too - poor guy so unlucky.
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Re: 6N Italy v Scotland 17th March 2018

Post by BigGee on Sun Mar 18, 2018 9:07 am

Greetings from Rome. It's currently pushing down with rain here after a couple of decent days with some sunshine. Just thought I would mention that as I hear it is snowing at home!

Probably everything has been said about the game itself. We definitely used the get out of jail card for this one. We should not underestimate how well Italy played though, their best gsme of the championship by z country mile. Unfortunately for them, like us a few years ago, they have not learnt the art of closing out yet!

Sitting in the stadium though, even from 12 points down, I never thought we were going to lose the game funnily enough. We seemed to be able to score when we needed to and the momentum was moving in our direction from the moment they scored at the start of the second half. We seem to have learnt the art of playing badly and winning. Glasgow have been pretty good at that over the years.

Much more impressive than the match was the turn out of Scottish fans for this one
There really were thousands of them all over Rome having a great time and there was a cracking atmosphere at the Stadium, which is a slightly dated but Truely iconic venue. The Italian fans were sporting and good natured and the beer was a lot cheaper than Sade de France even if the queuing system was chaos!

I even saw Graham Love, lately of this parish, in amongst the crowd and judging by his twees, the celebrations went on late into the night.

In conclusion; Rome, always a great place to visit, even better when you secure a slightly fortuitous win!

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Re: 6N Italy v Scotland 17th March 2018

Post by RDW_Scotland on Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:51 am

Townsend said after the game that the players will learn a lot from that, and I hope he has too.

We all had our concerns about some of the selections before the game and in a number of cases they were shown to be warranted.

Front row - it is never a good sign when the entire front row is subbed off at half time. Nel didn't look match fit yet, nor did Brown although he did show up well in parts. McInally was superb when he came on but Fagerson also didn't look match fit.

Second row - surely now even the most one eyed weegie (not looking at anyone in particular! Wink ) would acknowledge that Swinson is not an international class lock. He was completely ineffective yesterday - too short for a lineout option and underpowered in contact where he must have made a net loss in meters made. Gray X2, Gilchrist, Toolis, Cummings should form our lock choices going forwards.

Back row - Wilson looked like he needed to sit the game out, which is no surprise given the knock he took.

Half backs - Laidlaw saved our bacon but was also a big part of why we were so slow and uninspired in the first 50. For the second game in a row I'm struggling to remember Russell doing much - take away the England game and he's had a pretty poor tournament

Centres - Grigg had a good individual display but he's not a 12, and didn't work well with Jones who also had s forgetful day.

Back 3 - Seymour was completely anonymous. It really doesn't look good when a coach doesn't reward good displays and instead picks an old favourite who isn't in form. Kinghorn should have started that game. I think Seymour needs a break.


So IMO toony made mistakes across the board - I know it's easy to say in hindsight but all of the above concerns were raised before the match.

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Re: 6N Italy v Scotland 17th March 2018

Post by EST on Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:16 pm

I would agree that Toony made some bad judgement calls, Berghan and Gilchrist should have been penciled in after the first four games and Grigg is never an international 12 - he's a very good club 13, who could be a solid option at international level in that position. I am not as concerned about Seymour, as he has a lot of cash in the bank, and I actually thought he did little wrong with the ball he had.

Going forward, we have a lot of room for improvement. I still think we need to add a more direct dimension to our game, we look very underpowered when teams pick and go and play one out rugby - Samoa in the autumn and yesterday being good examples.

I know Toonie loves hard grafters who give consistent effort (Swinson, Wilson), but we need a better balance across the back row - if Watson is nailed on at 7, and Barcs is our captain, then I think we need to find an 8 who can get us over the gain line, but also provide the work rate that Toonies game plan needs - i.e not Denton. The closest we have is probably Bradbury, who was very good against Munster, and I would be looking to get him involved over the summer.

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Re: 6N Italy v Scotland 17th March 2018

Post by RDW_Scotland on Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:34 pm

No doubting Seymour's credentials as he's probably been our best winger of the 6N era, but he's not on form and being dropped may be the kick up the arse he needs. Alternatively it may just be fatigue - hopefully the coaches know which one it is and can help him accordingly.

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Re: 6N Italy v Scotland 17th March 2018

Post by TJ on Sun Mar 18, 2018 12:36 pm

I was given a bit of a ticking off for calling them selection errors. ( in another place) Perhaps better to say experiments that didn't work out well. I understand the centres one - trying to find a way to get a better player than Horne in at 12 but it didn't work. Wilson also I can understand in that he has been playing really well. I don't understand the front row in the italy game tho - perhaps looking for the ball carrying of Nel / fagerson? do we need a big ball carrying backrow if we have props who can do that? I think they ball carrying props were badly missed in the first game

I just hope townsend does learn and can temper his experiments with a little caution. The goofd thing is we now have a wider group of capped players and also we know a couple of things that don't work

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Re: 6N Italy v Scotland 17th March 2018

Post by 21st Century Schizoid Man on Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:43 pm

A lot of people on here (me included) seem to forget that this was Toonie's first 6Ns. Up against Joe Schmidt, the pair of wenkers Gatland and Jones and Conor O'Shea and their respective experience. Given that he did not too bad. Jones taunting of Toonie pre - Calcutta Cup has come back to haunt the horrible little shieze big time.
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Re: 6N Italy v Scotland 17th March 2018

Post by SecretFly on Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:03 pm

Yes, a lot to learn for Townsend - and in a sense, he might actually find it gets more difficult from here because he is going to find himself increasingly isolated from the players between these International windows.  He's only recently been removed from that club closeness so this year wouldn't be so pointed.  But Schmidt has alluded to it often enough, the big difference between coaching a group of players each week to only getting your hands on them once in a while.

So as Glasgow moves on and slowly becomes influences by the ideals and philosophies of the new coach, Townsend might have a job trying to orchestrate the magic of this season all over again each time he gets his players in for an International period.

The biggest disappointment for him this period was probably the lack of readiness for Gatland's long, long, long memory for implied slights.  Here in Ireland, we know only too well how Gat's mind works and how much that Welsh game against us each year is informed by his memories and his ideals of vengeance (which never seems to die off).

With Scotland, Gatland was intent on showing up the 'kid' that spurned his offer to go with the Lions.
That's the other bit Townsend will learn quickly - the coaching personality clashes at this level are real and they do inform what hits you when teams meet.  So play Gatland's game.  He's owed one now.  Townsend should plan, plan and plan for next year's clash Wink  You gotta become a bit of a Mafiosi type coach to survive in Six Nations.

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Re: 6N Italy v Scotland 17th March 2018

Post by beshocked on Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:05 am

I am generally pro Scotland but felt like the ref's decisions heavily in Scotland's favour.

1 try unfairly chalked off for Italy and Finn Russell avoiding a YC for a deliberate knockdown.

These are the kind of decisions that can decide a game.

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Re: 6N Italy v Scotland 17th March 2018

Post by RDW_Scotland on Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:09 am

Bit late to the party Beshocked! Laugh

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Re: 6N Italy v Scotland 17th March 2018

Post by beshocked on Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:20 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Bit late to the party Beshocked! Laugh

True. I've been busy in RL, plus lamenting about England's laughably woeful displays.

To be honest, a team that makes Farrell Jr captain deserves to lose. I don't want to see England lose but England need to look at their leadership choices.

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Re: 6N Italy v Scotland 17th March 2018

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