England - Summer Tour to South Africa

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England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 12:54 pm

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg SkySports action
16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action




Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

TBC


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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 12:57 pm

So, the 6Ns has gone and for us England fans consigned to history. Lessons need to be learned and progress mad Very Happy

So who would you want to take?

For interest the final announcement prior to last seasons departure to Argentina:

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/england-confirm-squad-for-argentina-tour/ wrote:Eddie Jones has confirmed his squad ahead of England’s two-Test series against Argentina next month. The squad assembled at the Lensbury Hotel in Teddington on Monday before leaving for Buenos Aires on Saturday, 3 June.

Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks) will be assessed today (Monday) after suffering a mid-foot sprain in England's recent camp in Brighton. Marland Yarde (Harlequins) has been called up as injury cover with a decision to be made later.

Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/ Northampton Saints) will fly from New Zealand to join the group in the Argentinian capital next weekend.

"I'm really excited about this Test series in Argentina," said Jones. "It is a big opportunity for this group and we are going out there to win 2-0.

"The players who have been in camp over the last few weeks have done extremely well and the win against a Barbarians team full of top internationals yesterday is testament to the hard work they have put in.

"We are looking forward to a good week of preparation in London before we depart this weekend."

Forwards
Don Armand (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley, captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw, vice captain (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Nick Schonert (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Tommy Taylor (Wasps, 1 cap)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, uncapped)

Backs
Mike Brown, vice captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care, vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs, 1cap)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford, vice captain (Bath Rugby, 36 caps)
Piers Francis (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins, 11 caps)

The following players were not available for selection:
Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Rob Buchanan (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins, 10 caps)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 74 caps)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Elliot Daly (Wasps, 13 caps)
Tom Ellis (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 52 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 17 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 12 caps)
Sam Jones (Wasps, uncapped)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 33 caps)
George Kruis (Saracens, 20 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 58 caps)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 51 caps)
Ryan Mills (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 23 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 8 caps)
Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors, 8 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 34 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 42 caps)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 70 caps)

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 12:59 pm


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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 1:00 pm

However ill repeat what I said on that one...

1 year out from the world cup and the players looked wrecked and yet can we afford to send a completely new side....im not sure we can or should. We need to fix some of the things that went so horribly wrong.....

Itoje, Farrell, Kruis, Mako, Cole need a summer off.

Which Scrum half will take us forward?
Robson?
Michael Young is the player he was before he left the falcons. Outstanding in a team currently 4th in the prem.

I'd like Eddie to go for it and pick a front row of...
1 Genge
2 Dunn
3 Sinkler
Now that would have impact - like the Irish and Kiwi front rows. Not like Dan Cole who is invisible.

The back row HAS to be fixed! Robshaw has been mr outstandingly consistent...does he deserve a rest or must he travel.
Curry x 2, Underhill, Mercer, need to be looked at.
Armand, Ewers? Guy Thompson? Gary Graham...

Nathan Hughes just isn't the player who broke on the scene in the prem. His lack of explosiveness at this level is alarming considering that's what he is known for.

We will be resting 3 locks (Itoje, Kruis, Lwaes is injured) So we need to have alternatives for this trip...
Will Spencer at Lock? Isiekwe..to start?
Does Launchbury need a rest or is he a must in this side v SA

A midfield of maybe...
10 Ford
12 T'eo (Switching with Slade)
13 Slade (Switching with T'eo)

Either way Slade needs to come in to the equation!

Where does Daly fit best. Is he the one to take over from Brown...as its not Watson. Keep him on the wing!

Lots of questions for this England coaching team.


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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 1:02 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Already a thread LT

http://www.606v2.com/t67329-england-summer-tour


Oops missed that. Guess they need to be merged, though the OP on that first one is, like most of my dates, ugly.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 1:03 pm

Stick with yours mate...

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by nlpnlp on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 1:39 pm

Is there anything to be gained by sending out the few 1st choice players who are not injured/knackered? I wouldn't send players like Mako Vunipola, Dan Cole, Maro Itoje, Joe Launchbury as they need a summer tour like a hole in the head. Will the likes of Ford or Sinkler get anything from an extra 3 games playing in a scratch England team?

If we took a "full strength" squad and won 3 -0 would it make a big difference to England's preparation for the world cup? The only thing to me to be gained from this tour is to give some young players the opportunity to put their hand up before we get into the world cup cycle (it is a case of now or never for them). Lots of people were clamouring for Jamie George to be the starting hooker, yet when he got his chance he was not noticeably any better than Hartley. I think the same will happen with some of the younger players being mentioned, but a few of them will make their mark. This group includes the likes of Smith, Curry, Chisholm, Simmonds, etc.

I would send some older fringe players like Haskell, Armand, Ewers, Wigglesworth with the younger players to look after them.

Hughes has come in for a lot of criticism for his performances this year, but it simply seemed a case of him being rushed back when not fully fit and getting injured again - I would hate something similar to happen to other players like Genge and Underhill. If there is one lesson for England to learn from this 6 Nations is that we need to look after our players better.



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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 1:56 pm

I don't think there's a need to send the established squad of the 6ns but I believe we have an agreement not to send a saxons like squad. Personally I'd work back from who is fit enough to go and wouldn't be detrimentally affected by the shortened time off. That would have to be a decision by the fitness guys. I would still prefer a string core as I think we learn less by lots of new combos.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by BamBam on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 2:00 pm

I also think going to face a fired up Boks side at home with a competent coach is asking for trouble if we send a weakened squad

Could easily result in 6 straight defeats from Scotland to the end of the tour

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by robbo277 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 2:05 pm

nlpnlp wrote:Is there anything to be gained by sending out the few 1st choice players who are not injured/knackered?  I wouldn't send players like Mako Vunipola, Dan Cole, Maro Itoje, Joe Launchbury as they need a summer tour like a hole in the head.  Will the likes of Ford or Sinkler get anything from an extra 3 games playing in a scratch England team?

If we took a "full strength" squad and won 3 -0 would it make a big difference to England's preparation for the world cup?  The only thing to me to be gained from this tour is to give some young players the opportunity to put their hand up before we get into the world cup cycle (it is a case of now or never for them).  Lots of people were clamouring for Jamie George to be the starting hooker, yet when he got his chance he was not noticeably any better than Hartley.  I think the same will happen with some of the younger players being mentioned, but a few of them will make their mark.  This group includes the likes of Smith, Curry, Chisholm, Simmonds, etc.

I would send some older fringe players like Haskell, Armand, Ewers, Wigglesworth with the younger players to look after them.
 
Hughes has come in for a lot of criticism for his performances this year, but it simply seemed a case of him being rushed back when not fully fit and getting injured again - I would hate something similar to happen to other players like Genge and Underhill.  If there is one lesson for England to learn from this 6 Nations is that we need to look after our players better.



Sinckler has started 1 game for England? And Ford has just been dropped. I'm sure if fit and fresh both would want to go and show Jones what they can do over a series.

After making decisions on which players need a break (Mako, George, Cole, Itoje, Farrell, Launchbury all shoot straight to mind), I think we then have to send our strongest squad. It's not a development tour, and it would have to be a team we would be happy to start in the Autumn if they were to go and win a series. I think I said on another post, every shirt is up for grabs at the moment, and if a player is fit enough to give a good account of himself then they should go.

Players like Ford and Sinckler, along with Tuilagi, Slade, Lozowski, Solomona, Armand, Curry, Cowan-Dickie, Ewels etc players with a reasonable shot of making the autumn squad and the world cup squad further down the line. Some of the guys who went to Argentina who haven't had a look in since (Collier, Francis and the like) should only be called upon if we suffer injury crises.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 4:30 pm

Possible 32...

Props x 6 (Rest Cole and Mako)
Sinkler, Williams, (3rd TH?)
Genge, Marler, Harrison / Hepburn?

Hookers x 3
Dunn
LCD
Yeandle

Locks x 4
Isiekwe
Ewels
Will Spencer
A.N.Other (Barrow / Green / Witty etc etc pick from a raft of others. )

Back Row x 6
The big dilema
Robshaw, Underhill, T.Curry, Armand, S.Simmonds, Graham / Ewers?
Any others?

9's x 2
? - Difficult one. Robson probably one...who is the other?

10's x 2
Ford
J. Simmonds

Centres x 4 (rest Farrell)
T'eo
Slade
James
Lowzoski

Back 3 x 5 (rest Watson)
Brown
Daly
May
Nowell
(Wild Cards) Cockasniga / Olly Woodburn

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by robbo277 on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 4:51 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Possible 32...

Props x 6 (Rest Cole and Mako)
Sinkler, Williams, (3rd TH?)
Genge, Marler, Harrison / Hepburn?

Hookers x 3
Dunn
LCD
Yeandle

Locks x 4
Isiekwe
Ewels
Will Spencer
A.N.Other (Barrow / Green / Witty etc etc pick from a raft of others. )

Back Row x 6
The big dilema
Robshaw, Underhill, T.Curry, Armand, S.Simmonds, Graham / Ewers?
Any others?

9's x 2
? - Difficult one. Robson probably one...who is the other?

10's x 2
Ford
J. Simmonds

Centres x 4 (rest Farrell)
T'eo
Slade
James
Lowzoski

Back 3 x 5 (rest Watson)
Brown
Daly
May
Nowell
(Wild Cards) Cockasniga / Olly Woodburn

Just going to throw a few names next to some of the question marks. All have been in Eddie squads before:

Paul Hill at tight-head? Is he playing? Playing well?
Hepburn is probably next loosehead in line, but Obano might get a look in?
Back row - Clifford? Is he back playing?
Maunder at scrum-half? Is he getting game time?
Will he call up Simmonds? Or he could use Lozowski and Slade as 10 cover and call-up another centre - possibly Tuilagi? Or Marchant?
Back 3 - Solomona, Earle and Ibitoye have all been in various squads over the Six Nations, so you think they'd be ahead in the race for the 4th winger - although he could drop a centre and call in an extra face. Would he want to check out another full back?

A lot of questions, some of them will be answered by injury of course.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by BamBam on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 5:02 pm

Surely Marcus Smith would be ahead of Simmonds

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 5:03 pm

No need to rest Watson, his achilles surgery has ruled him out.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 7:07 pm

Oh absolutely...that was just a starter squad for everyone to tweak/ pull apart....

Yes Marcus Smith is certainly an option I forgot about. But I have been impressed with Simmonds.

Obano is another option...is he fit enough or an impact option ? And hill hasn't played much has he? Needs to go to a club where he can regain his mojo!

Is Clifford actually not injured any more? Would he be rushed into the England squad with barely any game time this season.

Didn't realise Watson was out with an Achilles op.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 9:10 am

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/mar/19/rugby-union-england-anthony-watson-wing-achilles-injury-out-season-bath

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by king_carlos on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 9:12 pm

1.Marler, Genge, Waller
2.Hartley, Taylor, LCD
3.Sinckler, Williams, Collier
4.Launchbury, Ewels
5.Kruis, Isiekwe
6.Robshaw, Haskell
7.T Curry, Armand
8.Vunipola, Simmonds, Mercer

9.Youngs, Care, Robson
10.Ford, Lozowski, Smith

11.May, Nowell
12.Te'o, Slade
13.Joseph, Tuilagi
14.Daly, Rokoduguni
15.Brown

Is Jack Clifford injured still?

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 9:27 pm

Interesting squad Carlos.

Hartley? Is he there because of a lack of experience. Ive defended him, but now..sorry I'm firmly against. We need more impact than Hartley and Cole.
Kruis...does he not need a time off?

Does Haskell offer anything now? Mark Wilson is head and tails ahead as is Gary Graham (and that's just my Falcns bias) Thompson at Wasps...Sam Jones recovering, Ewers etc etc

Billy and Manu have been out for so long...do you take them..or leave them give them and top class preseason and have them pulling up trees at the start of next season.



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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Yoda on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 9:35 pm

Just seen some old matches from this year and the available talent to Eddie is immense. He missed a trick not involving some in matches like Marcus Smith and Mercer. The future could be very rosey, Gabriel itotye definitely one to watch, Tom curry, Jack Willis, Robson , and dare I say it another project player Brad shields. Shields looks half decent and is highly regarded in NZ. So the next 18 months could see plenty of competition for back row. Let's hope he gets it right, this six nations was probably a blessing in disguise.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 10:07 pm

Yoda wrote:Just seen some old matches from this year and the available talent to Eddie is immense. He missed a trick not involving some in matches like Marcus Smith and Mercer. The future could be very rosey, Gabriel itotye definitely one to watch, Tom curry, Jack Willis, Robson , and dare I say it another project player Brad shields. Shields looks half decent and is highly regarded in NZ. So the next 18 months could see plenty of competition for back row. Let's hope he gets it right, this six nations was probably a blessing in disguise.

So was that lock Simmons..
Are we not done with Project players. Can we not use our own home grown players. Plus we already have Armand, Ewers, Hughes, etc etc...

How has Ibitoye progressed in senior rugby?

I think everyone agrees Jones has dropped a clanger not having Tom Curry in the squad. After his performances in Argentina he should have been progressed quicker. Although as a biased falcon fan...so should mark Wilson (but I'm a  Broken Record  with that one)

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 10:18 pm

PS Isnt it a shame Sam Simmonds wasn't a 12. Looks like he has every attribute to be a great 12... Laugh

6 Underhill / (Robshaw still outperforming though)
7 Curry
8 Billy

12 Simmonds Very Happy

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by king_carlos on Wed 21 Mar 2018, 10:28 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Interesting squad Carlos.

Hartley? Is he there because of a lack of experience. Ive defended him, but now..sorry I'm firmly against. We need more impact than Hartley and Cole.
Kruis...does he not need a time off?

Does Haskell offer anything now? Mark Wilson is head and tails ahead as is Gary Graham (and that's just my Falcns bias) Thompson at Wasps...Sam Jones recovering, Ewers etc etc

Billy and Manu have been out for so long...do you take them..or leave them give them and top class preseason and have them pulling up trees at the start of next season.

If Hartley can still nail his set-piece then he is more use than the options behind him IMO. If Taylor, LCD, Dunn, etc want to usurp him then they need to match his set-piece solidity. Same story with Cole for me. He looks knackered and needs a rest but is still our best scrummaging tighthead. Lots of good forwards looked poor in the Six Nations because of poor tactics, selection and lots of exhausted bodies.

I thought the forwards improved when Haskell came on against France. He was quiet against Ireland in a dominated side. Wilson is a good player but I don't see what he offers more than Haskell to be honest. I wouldn't be upset if Haskell were left out but personally I'd pick him with Underhill, Clifford and Hughes injured. SA if a physical tour and if picked to do a simple role Haskell offers a good option.

If Manu's form keeps improving then I'd take him. He offers something our other backs do not. As for the injuries, long pre-season, etc I think Manu has been wrapped in cotton wool as much as possible. From what I've heard he's just desperate to play rugby, if he's going to have an international future then he needs to play - it's been 2 years.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by yappysnap on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 4:54 am

Is Cole really our best? Cole of a few years back was, now he seems to struggle to get anything but parity in the scrum, and he needs Marler on the other side for our scrum to be any cop.

I don't watch enough to say there are better, but he's really not the player he was. Especially when you add in he does very little around the park. Must be one of the least effective props in the loose this 6N's.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by yappysnap on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 4:57 am

Also I agree about Manu. Yes we don't want to keep rushing players back. But by the summer he will have played for 6 months, which is pretty good tbh. He's shown enough in the past that he's worth a punt, he has all the attributes we're screaming out for and with the distribution of Ford and Farrell inside him he could be brilliant. Has he kept his pace?

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 7:05 am

I'm sorry but jones didn't drop a clanger by not included tom curry in the squad. Yes it's important to integrate players into he environment but I doubt his cheerleading would have soured on haskell to play much better.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 8:47 am

Can I just ask a question. How many new players have made it into Jones team and stuck around since the Australian tour?

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 9:45 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm sorry but jones didn't drop a clanger by not included tom curry in the squad. Yes it's important to integrate players into he environment but I doubt his cheerleading would have soured on haskell to play much better.

We'll agree to disagree

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by robbo277 on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 10:01 am

yappysnap wrote:Is Cole really our best? Cole of a few years back was, now he seems to struggle to get anything but parity in the scrum, and he needs Marler on the other side for our scrum to be any cop.

I don't watch enough to say there are better, but he's really not the player he was. Especially when you add in he does very little around the park. Must be one of the least effective props in the loose this 6N's.

I still think we should be looking to start our tyros and put our experienced heads on the bench, especially in the front row. Even just as an experiment.

Not for this tour, but possibly in the autumn - pick Mako, George and Sinckler to start. Carrying, tackling, offloading, threatening. Then in the second half, you have Marler, Hartley and Cole coming on. Nasty, experienced players who will be clinical at the set piece (especially against tiring and substitute front rows). You have a lineout on their 5m line or a scrum centrefield on the 22 with 3 minutes to go when chasing a 4 point deficit, you know you're getting that platform to play off with those 3 on the pitch.

Hopefully with less time on the pitch they'd be able to increase their workrate around the park. Cole regularly plays 70 minutes for England, and how often is he pacing himself? Put them on with 25 to go and tell them to empty the tank.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by BamBam on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 10:04 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm sorry but jones didn't drop a clanger by not included tom curry in the squad. Yes it's important to integrate players into he environment but I doubt his cheerleading would have soured on haskell to play much better.

We'll agree to disagree

Tom was injured, do you mean Ben?

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by robbo277 on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 10:04 am

carpet baboon wrote:Can I just ask a question. How many new players have made it into Jones team and stuck around since the Australian tour?

I was going to do an analysis on this, because it's something I've thought of. In short, not many.

A lot of new players were capped in Argentina last year because of the Lions tour, but take out the players who were used and discarded and there isn't all that many new caps. Te'o and Hughes I think came in autumn 2016, Underhill was capped in Argentina and retained and Simmonds was capped last autumn and retained, but that's about it.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 10:12 am

carpet baboon wrote:Can I just ask a question. How many new players have made it into Jones team and stuck around since the Australian tour?

These players had 4 caps or fewer before going on the 2016 tour

Te'o - 0
Sinckler - 0
Genge - 1
Harrison - 1
Hill -2
Slade - 2
Cowan Dickie - 3
Daly - 3
Itoje - 4

Not many made the Test side, and Harrison fell from grace afterwards. Since that tour, I'd say Hughes and Underhill have been part of the plan. Other debutants are by no means fixtures,.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 12:01 pm

BamBam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm sorry but jones didn't drop a clanger by not included tom curry in the squad. Yes it's important to integrate players into he environment but I doubt his cheerleading would have soured on haskell to play much better.

We'll agree to disagree

Tom was injured, do you mean Ben?

7.5 was I guess a little cryptic with his explanation.

9/11/17 - http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/21354164/england-flanker-tom-curry-ruled-12-weeks-dislocated-wrist
27/12/17 - http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12573/11186380/sale-sharks-confirm-england-flanker-tom-curry-will-miss-six-nations

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 12:33 pm

Then I stand corrected, I knew he'd had some injury issues, but not all of that.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 12:59 pm

Sorry I thought you just meant around the squad. We did have underhill at the start of the tournament as well who had started to push his case before he did a rees/fraser and got injured again! We may see the next set of guys like willis mercer etc push in the summer and autumn.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 1:15 pm

The worry I have is the everytime the "next generation" come through they're getting injured with little time to actually develop.

Rees was the big thing...then retired
Will Fraser - Retired
Clifford - Permantly injured
Underhill - Permanently injured
Curry - Seemingly permanently injured.

We can probably do a similar list in other positions aswell...

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 1:21 pm

The following back rowers have been unavailable for England due to injury and illness:

Billy Vunipola - broke arm playing for Saracens
Nathan Hughes - injured playing for England
Sam Simmonds - injured playing for England
Sam Underhill - injured playing for England, also injured at England training camp
Tom Curry - injured at England training camp
Zac Mercer - Food poisoning at England training camp.

With only billy injured on club duty, that is a worrying pattern

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 1:23 pm

Yup which is why I think we saw jones put the brakes on with back row development since last year's 6 nations. He'd identified underhill and probably curry as far back as then so when we missing players do you go to the next set or play Itoje and Lawes and wait. He picked the first. Then we had a glimpse of the 2 chosen guys and another set of injuries so lawes again. When it comes round to the next set which way does he go? I'd suggest if underhill and curry aren't available he will push on to develop someone else.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by robbo277 on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 1:24 pm

A comparison into new caps given out by Lancaster and Jones

I thought I'd post this here because it ties into the current discussion. Happy to move it to a new post if people think that's more warranted.

Both came into their roles after a World Cup more disastrous than the last. Johnson followed up England's final in 2007 with an ignominious quarter-final exit in 2011, and Lancaster managed to go one worse by failing to get out of the pool stage in 2015.

The similarities end there. If you look at England's 2011 World Cup squad, a raft of players were cut as Lancaster rebuilt the team. Mears, Thompson, Stevens, Deacon, Palmer, Shaw, Moody, Easter (kinda), Waldrom, Wilkinson, Hape, Tindall, Armitage, Banahan, Cueto and Foden either didn't feature again for England, or didn't feature prominently - the exception being Easter, who came back later in Lancaster's reign.

Lancaster set about his work, capping 8 players in his first 6 Nations and a further 10 players in the next 12 months before the Lions tour. In those 18 players, Lancaster found 12 players who I would deem "important players" during his reign - Barritt, Farrell, Parling, Morgan, Webber, Marler, Joseph, Goode, Youngs, Mako Vunipola, Launchbury and Twelvetrees. 5 of those are still regulars under Eddie Jones.

Without his Lions, Lancaster handed out 8 new caps on his 2 test tour to Argentina and crucially unearthed Billy Vunipola, May and Yarde, who featured regularly under Lancaster (Vunipola and May also featuring heavily under Jones).

In the two series after that tour (so to the comparable point in the previous World Cup cycle), Lancaster was parsimonious, handing out 4 new caps - however 3 of them became key players for him - Nowell, Burrell and Ford. Again, 2 regularly feature under Jones.

In the subsequent 12 months, Lancaster handed out a further 6 new caps, most crucially bringing through Brookes, Kruis and Watson who all went on to make his World Cup squad.

In the warm-up series before the World Cup, Lancaster gave out 5 further new caps, including Burgess, George and Slade (who made the World Cup squad) and Cowan-Dickie and Clark - who didn't.

Of Lancaster's 31 man world cup squad, 21 had been given their debut by Lancaster and 3 had been brought through from fringe players under the previous regime into key members of the squad (Robshaw, Wood and Brown).

Following the World Cup, the "cut" list was much shorter - Webber, Youngs, Brookes, Wilson, Parling, Morgan, Barritt and Burgess were scarcely seen again, while Wigglesworth would have been on that list without this late recall.

No, the tournament wasn't a success, but from the names mentioned you can see that the genuinely held premise is true - Lancaster brought through a number of players who Jones has used to good success in his first 2 years in charge.

Compare Uncle Eddie's record at bringing players through. In his first tournament, Jones gave out 8 new caps, just as Lancaster had. Jones unearthed 2 stars (SL: 5) in Itoje and Daly. While the jury is still out on Genge, Clifford and to an extent Paul Hill, I'd be surprised to see more from Taylor, Devoto and Harrison.

In the next 12 months, Eddie capped just 4 additional players (SL: 10), but to his credit all 4 (SL: 7) are regulars in subsequent squads (Hughes, Te'o, Sinckler and Ewels).

With a higher Lions representation, Jones gave out 11 new caps in Argentina (SL: 8), but seems to have had a much lower return than Lancaster. As above, Lancaster found Billy Vunipola and a couple of other key players, while Eddie has only capped Underhill, Williams and now Armand since the tour, and the latter two can't be defined as key players.

Since the tour, Jones has capped an additional 2 players in Simmonds and Hepburn, which is fewer players and fewer key players than Lancaster was unearthing in the same period.

The pattern is clear. Lancaster - out of necessity - had to keep evolving the team and keep bringing players through. In his entire reign, Lancaster gave out first caps to 41 players. You could make a very tidy 15 out of the players Lancaster capped - one that could even compete today.

While Eddie has unearthed some of his own key players, he hasn't managed to develop nearly the same amount of talent as Lancaster. He's capped 25 new players and while some may recover and prove themselves key, he's only found 9 key guys in that time. Lancaster, by a similar stage, had capped 30 new players, found 18 players he took to the World Cup and found 9 guys that Eddie still uses today.

Was Lancaster blessed with better players coming through? Was it purely a necessity thing in that he didn't have players he could rely on so had to keep bringing players in? Or was he just better at identifying and developing talent?

My Lancaster new cap XV: Mako, George, Brookes, Launchbury, Kruis, Waldrom, Kvesic, Billy, Dickson, Ford, May, Farrell, Joseph, Nowell, Watson
My Eddie new cap XV: Genge, Taylor, Sinckler, Itoje, Ewels, Underhill, Curry, Simmonds, Maunder, Lozowski, Daly, Te'o, Francis, Solomona, Devoto.

Looking at those two teams - Lancaster is weak in the back row, but as mentioned he used Robshaw and Wood (who had a couple of caps between them) and Haskell predominantly. Scrum half is also weak, but we had two young scrum halves in Youngs and Care at the start of his reign who held down most of the duties - assisted by Wigglesworth and Dickson. But other than that, it's a strong side.

Only Itoje and Daly from Eddie's team would be in his starting XV now if everyone was fit, although at least he is starting to bring through some good backrow talent and Te'o is normally there or thereabouts.

With 3 series to go before the World Cup, England are crying out for a few fresh faces. These could be players like Hepburn, Isiekwe, Curry or Solomona who have had caps under Eddie but not kicked on, or further new caps, players like Mercer, Smith, Marchant and Ibitoye who have been on the fringes.

But at current, Eddie Jones isn't bringing players through, and it is starting to cause a concern.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 1:33 pm

Talking about Brad Shields - there have been any number of uncapped Super Rugby forwards who are EQP and who have come with a big reputation and failed to live up to the hype.

GF has mentioned Matt Symons, while at Leicester Mike Fitzgerald and Brendan O'Connor have not been awful, but have failed to reach the expectations.

In general you have to wonder (especially with the way NZ like to try out young players) if a guy reaches mid 20s and is uncapped are they really good enough for international rugby?

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by SecretFly on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 1:59 pm

If Jones goes after the WC, would/could Lancaster be invited back to do the England role for a second stint?
Has any coach had two stints at it?

Lancaster got some things wrong (I think aided and abetted by England advisors)  He had a perfectly balanced side going into the WC and then all of a sudden the heroic League guy showed up and well............. things began to go down hill from there.
But Lancaster is undoubtedly a very good coach.  He didn't brood over his sacking but chose instead to keep educating himself.  I think he did little stints in the SH before accepting the offer from Leinster.  Jamie Heaslip says Schmidt and Lancaster are the best coaches he's worked with.
When the WC is done and dusted, and sides pick up the pieces, and coaches are doing their contractual leavings - some National side is going to look seriously at Lancaster.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 2:05 pm

I could see Lancaster end up with the SA national team. Think the could turn them into a top 4 team

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 2:22 pm

carpet baboon wrote:I could see Lancaster end up with the SA national team. Think the could turn them into a top 4 team

I wonder would such a political union ever appoint an outsider. I mean I imagine you have to deal with and manage so much local stuff specific to South Africa when you take on the job. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe an outsider is what they need.

Lancaster is a really strong coach so who knows.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 2:29 pm

Jones has just signed a contract to take him past the world cup.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by SecretFly on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 2:35 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Jones has just signed a contract to take him past the world cup.

Oh unspoken, small-print get-out clauses are in fashion though.  I'm sure both Eddie and the RFU have a few of them there for any post-WC blues.  The 'family concerns back home' tends to be a hidden clause that's become popular.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 2:49 pm

LondonTiger wrote:The following back rowers have been unavailable for England due to injury and illness:

Billy Vunipola - broke arm playing for Saracens
Nathan Hughes - injured playing for England
Sam Simmonds - injured playing for England
Sam Underhill - injured playing for England, also injured at England training camp
Tom Curry - injured at England training camp
Zac Mercer - Food poisoning at England training camp.

With only billy injured on club duty, that is a worrying pattern
Of course, Sam Jones got injured way back at an England camp, and was eventually forced to retire last month as a result, so he could be on that list too.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by BamBam on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 2:50 pm

Had no idea about that, that's terrible! From a judo injury while in contention to start for England to retirement so quickly, poor lad

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 2:52 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Jones has just signed a contract to take him past the world cup.
The RFU do have a break clause, in the event of another poor World Cup. There's no indication of what would trigger the break, though.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 2:54 pm

I completely missed the jones retirement. That's terrible.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 2:59 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:The following back rowers have been unavailable for England due to injury and illness:

Billy Vunipola - broke arm playing for Saracens
Nathan Hughes - injured playing for England
Sam Simmonds - injured playing for England
Sam Underhill - injured playing for England, also injured at England training camp
Tom Curry - injured at England training camp
Zac Mercer - Food poisoning at England training camp.

With only billy injured on club duty, that is a worrying pattern
Of course, Sam Jones got  injured way back at an England camp, and was eventually forced to retire last month as a result, so he could be on that list too.

Aye. I was only looking at this season, but even then missed out Lawes whose season ending injury was gained during the Ireland game.


From memory, and probably missing a fair few, Underhill, Curry, Nowell, Daly, Hartley, Obano have all missed matches (for club or country) due to injuries gained during England training camps this season. Who knows who could be crippled during the summer tour.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by robbo277 on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 3:31 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Jones has just signed a contract to take him past the world cup.
The RFU do have a break clause, in the event of another poor World Cup. There's no indication of what would trigger the break, though.

I read semi-final, but I'm not sure where.

To get to the semis, he'd most likely need to beat Argentina, France and Wales or Australia, which I think is challenging enough without being unrealistic. To get further he'd probably need to beat the All Blacks.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

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