England - Summer Tour to South Africa

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England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 12:54 pm

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg SkySports action
16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action




Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

TBC


Last edited by LondonTiger on Tue 08 May 2018, 11:16 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by yappysnap on Sat 31 Mar 2018, 12:05 am

Honestly I have no idea

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 31 Mar 2018, 7:47 am

The Newcastle performances like exeter when they rose heap more praise on the coaching staff than the players for me. They're good but I wouldn't personally say (m)any should be england bound.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by stub on Sat 31 Mar 2018, 11:06 am

LondonTiger wrote:Is Will Spencer any good?

Well, we’re (Worcester) very upset to be losing him - we’re a much weaker team without him. You’ll get to find out for yourself soon anyway LT!

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 31 Mar 2018, 3:31 pm

yappysnap wrote:Come on Geordie you know the rules. I good player can't actually be good if they're not in the top team. Ergo Itoje it better no matter the performance. Simples

Sorry dude, couldn't resist Very Happy

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 31 Mar 2018, 3:37 pm

I actually agree...I do think we are very much a team that works well without loads of outstanding individuals. But we do have a couple.

And ill harp on again...Mark Wilson should have had more exposure to the England side, and Gary Graham was due to until he damaged his neck in the England squad get together. He hasn't played for us since...thank you Eddie Jones.

Kibirige is back now after his injury and the court case is finally over. We'll see how he goes next season....and Radwan will get more games.

Cant see anyone else getting any from us getting recognition.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by yappysnap on Sat 31 Mar 2018, 10:20 pm

Interesting article on injuries during the England training camps compiled by the RFU here...

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/professional-game-action-plan-player-injuries-released-with-2016-professional-rugby-injury-surveillance-project-report/

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Taylorman on Sun 01 Apr 2018, 3:58 pm

robbo277 wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Jones has just signed a contract to take him past the world cup.
The RFU do have a break clause, in the event of another poor World Cup. There's no indication of what would trigger the break, though.

I read semi-final, but I'm not sure where.

To get to the semis, he'd most likely need to beat Argentina, France and Wales or Australia, which I think is challenging enough without being unrealistic. To get further he'd probably need to beat the All Blacks.

Well hes already done that in a semi.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by kingelderfield on Sun 01 Apr 2018, 10:18 pm

All the kings horses and all the kings men......it was fun for a while but the nature of things being as they are and all that.
So how do we change the fundamentals?

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 02 Apr 2018, 7:14 am

Wilson is the only Falcons player I could realistically champion. He's got the all-round game...he can carry, tackle his heart out and is better over the ball than any of the current England backrowers imo. I honestly think if he'd have been at a better club, he would have 30+ caps.

On Shields (I mentioned on another thread), he will walk into the England side. He's a real class act and seems to be improving all the time. He reminds me in some ways to a younger Haskell with a few more brain cells. I can see why he stayed off the NZ radar a little, as he was prone to the odd guff, despite being physically impressive. He does seem to have turned this around though, I'm really excited about him coming over....he's better than CJ Stander imo.

You throw Shields into a backrow with Vunipola and Underhill/Robshaw and we have the makings of a top class unit (keeping all fit is a different matter).

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Yoda on Mon 02 Apr 2018, 10:26 am

Shields looks fine and as a wasps fan excited for Shields and sopanga to rock up. But I'm more excited to see Willis carry on from this season. To my mind Willis is more aggressive than shields and adds dog. I would prefer no one to just walk into England without warning it first. Sends the wrong message when a foreign raised prospect is picked over quality already available. There will be a battle royale for the back row births next season. Throw into the mix Wilson, Clifford, underhill, Simmonds, Armand, the lad from Saracens who's skippering the u20. Could be an area of strength not weakness. We have just run out of games though to effectively be settled for world cup year, yet again.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by yappysnap on Mon 02 Apr 2018, 11:06 am

All we need is one of them to step up

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by robbo277 on Mon 02 Apr 2018, 6:11 pm

Eddie Jones could take Shields to South Africa I think. He has precedence picking Te'o in 2016 and Underhill and Francis for Argentina last year.

In 2016 Eddie took Te'o on tour and didn't play him. He even promoted Burrell (who was an injury replacement for Manu) above Te'o into the starting line up for the first test. Did he ever plan on playing Te'o? Or was he just having a look?

He could do something similar with Shields. Call him up for the squad, let him train with the squad and have a look at him. Then challenge him to start the season strongly and get in the squad for the Autumn tests.

Shields, Robshaw and Vunipola would probably be a good enough backrow, with Simmonds on the bench? You've also got Haskell as an experienced back up and Armand, Underhill and 2x Curry brothers to consider, but it would be more a case of one of them forcing their way in and making such a strong case for inclusion you can't ignore them any longer.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Yoda on Mon 02 Apr 2018, 10:55 pm

I don't rate the curry's as much as others and Robshaw had his day, too slow. He's been a fine servant but a change in thought and deed is needed. The curry's look under powered for international.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by yappysnap on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 6:58 am

I guess that's what this tour should find out.

To me it's last chance saloon for Haskell and Hughes.

Chance to lay down a marker for Robshaw, Underhill and Billy V.

Then chance to steal a shirt for Simmonds, Curry's, Armand, Shields, Mercer.

That's a lot of players, too many really. But thats why Eddie is paid the big bucks.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 7:59 am

I think Haskell could be dropped tbh Yappy and not sure Hughes is at last chance yet....he was obviously unfit during the 6N. I guess we're getting to a squad of:

6. Robshaw, Armand, Shields
7. Underhill, Simmonds?, Curry
8. Vunipola, Hughes, Mercer

I really hope Billy can sort himself out.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by yappysnap on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 8:51 am

Think you're right there Pooly, but wasn't Hughes also pretty poor last 6Ns too? He seems unable to bring his club game to Int duty

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Yoda on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 9:59 am

I forgot about Mercer decent challenge. As a wasps fan I think Haskell is toast just not adaptable to changes in tactics . He's always played one way and that's why he's been around along time, a fantastic athlete and servant of wasps and England. If you have him in the back row you must have a clever foil to his smash smash smash game. Hughes is another who needs to adapt and change tactics during the match and through out season for different opposition. Hughes has time on his side has doesn't. If England stick to a blue print of a hill back daylight format, one basket, one limit (pain in the arse breakdown devil) and a clever link player then stick to it. Mercer looks like a good 6 to me at int level two big badgers in vunipola and Hughes just need that breakdown specialist and a decent 12 and we are all set.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 12:00 pm

Yoda wrote:I don't rate the curry's as much as others and Robshaw had his day, too slow. He's been a fine servant but a change in thought and deed is needed. The curry's look under powered for international.

I keep hearing this...and yet is he not our consistently stand out performer??

Until the young challengers can perform to his level on a consistent basis they will be nowhere near! Robshaw was our best player this 6n by a country mile. He was taking on back rows on his own in many cases!

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 12:06 pm

yappysnap wrote:Think you're right there Pooly, but wasn't Hughes also pretty poor last 6Ns too? He seems unable to bring his club game to Int duty

I agree...he just doesn't seem to be able to raise his game to international level.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by lostinwales on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 12:54 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Yoda wrote:I don't rate the curry's as much as others and Robshaw had his day, too slow. He's been a fine servant but a change in thought and deed is needed. The curry's look under powered for international.

I keep hearing this...and yet is he not our consistently stand out performer??

Until the young challengers can perform to his level on a consistent basis they will be nowhere near! Robshaw was our best player this 6n by a country mile. He was taking on back rows on his own in many cases!

As for the Curry's being underpowered - well they are babies in international terms. You can say that they are underpowered now (and that is arguable) but it is something that has to be revisited on a regular basis.

There is also a lot to be said for playing within yourself but keeping up a high intensity all game (Yes - the Robshaw way). You go '110%' at the start then you either get hurt or you end up giving only 80% for large parts of the game. Brains is an important attribute.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 3:34 pm

Not quite sure how the Curry 's are underpowered...

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Yoda on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 3:46 pm

Stopping runners on or behind the gain line in the Aviva Prem is one thing but stopping them at international is another. I would like to be wrong. I suppose the curry's ability at breakdown could be an asset as long as we had the balance I discussed earlier. As for Robshaw I am a fan but we must face facts he is too slow for seven and not a dynamic carrier link player for six. We are being outgunned come ruck time. He's even been beaten at club level too and this part of the reason quins are less than the sum of their parts this season. They rely on quick ball but are getting less and less this season. Like I said opinions are cheap and I'm perfectly prepared to be proved wrong.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 4:10 pm

Not all players are there to stop players dead though. Players like the Currys would have different jobs. Tackling is a big part but not like a Hsakell.

However in Argentina im pretty sure Curry put a number of thumping hits in...so I think he is capable of making them when required.

Robshaw, well he's slow, undynamic etc etc...yet he was still Englands top player.

I would love to see a young, pacy , dynamic beast of a backrow trio... however Until Underhill, Curry x 2, Mercer, Clifford, Simmonds etc etc etc can match his level of performances then the shirt is his. Simple as that.

Hughes is in last chance saloon.
Simmonds should move to 12.

On another note...is Manu injured again?

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by robbo277 on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 4:32 pm

I agree with both of you I think. That's why I said Shields/Robshaw/Vunipola wouldn't be a bad back row. It's not my dream backrow or the archetypal back row I think we should be looking to develop, but if that's how we lined up then you wouldn't expect anyone to get embarrassed there.

We do have young talent, but there's so many of them I'm sure Eddie Jones won't want to spend too long backing a loser. As mentioned earlier, he's paid the big bucks to get these calls right, and if he sees enough in someone I hope he gives them a go. But at the moment, Underhill and Simmonds have looked decent at international level in their injury interrupted Six Nations, while no-one else has had that much exposure.

On Manu:

Centre Tuilagi, who has been plagued with injuries over the past three seasons, will have a scan on a pectoral strain, though head coach Matt O’Connor hopes it will not prove too serious.

Winger May took a blow to the head attempting to tackle Wasps opponent Christian Wade but the Leicester boss hopes he will get the all-clear to face Bath.

Tigers have no game this coming weekend as the European quarter-finals are being staged, so both May and Tuilagi have an extra week to recover before the Twickenham clash with Bath.

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/leicester-tigers-give-injury-update-1382730

Is the most recent I can find. Maybe one of the tigers fans will be better informed, but otherwise I guess it's a case of wait and see whether he makes the team against Bath, or whether it's something more serious.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 4:36 pm

Will Hughes have recovered in time to tour? I wqas under the impression that along with watson and Lawes he had already been ruled out.

Yes GF, Manu is injured at the moment with a small tear in his right pec. Currently expected to be fit for the penultimate round of the AP season (visit of Falcons).

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/no-manu-tuilagi-leicester-tigers-1413676

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 4:40 pm

Yea he would be Wink

He's had this injury before hasn't he LT?

On Tom Curry....I'm a big fan, not seen loads of Ben tbh.


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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 4:47 pm

It was the left pec last time - which detached from the bone. This is much more minor, but an addition to the ever increasing list of injuries.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 4:52 pm

I sometimes struggle to know which Curry I am looking at. Ben is the one who is going great guns this season having made 14 starts in the AP and won several man of the match awards. Bearing in mind Tom only got his chance against the Barbarians last year due to Ben getting injured in training, it is ironic that this time Ben is benefiting from an injury to his twin.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 4:56 pm

Given jones did call up ben first it's a bit of a mystery why he hasn't really been considered given his further exposure this year. Think the summer will show us more clearly what Jones is thinking as as everyone has said we could all pick about 5 back rows which would be good.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by BamBam on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 4:58 pm

From the little I've seen of them, Tom seems the more physical of the two - neither really stand out as carriers but Tom seems to hit a bit harder, while Ben is arguably the better pure "fetcher"


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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 5:00 pm

Ben looked plenty physical enough against us back in November.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Yoda on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 7:04 pm

Well here's hoping they both go well. Take both with express instructions to concentrate on rucks only,anything else a bonus. Pick a grafter like Robshaw but with a bit more legs Armand, et al there's loads of potential 6's and Simmonds and one other at 8 with a change of tactics that employ a more mobile game rather than trucking it up. Hughes out vunipola wrapped in cotton wool for summer and see if we can play a different brand of Rugby. Who at 12? Teo a bit one dimensional. Someone like Robson at nine. All this though should have been done a year earlier, it's stick or twist time for Eddie.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 7:30 pm

Too many changes and you end up with baa baa s and you don't learn anything.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by yappysnap on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 8:31 pm

Opta put an interesting stat up about Mako after this weekend. To paraphrase he made more carries (20) then any other prop has managed in a game since they started analyzing games. Now some of that will be because he's just used more by the team then a lot of props anyway, but it casts a little more doubt on this player fatigue theory doesn't it?

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Yoda on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 9:09 pm

Two points. I suspect make has been given less heavy duty training by Saracens than eddy's camps. It's a well known fact he has been doing fitness with the England squad, probably too heavy and too close to matches. Everytime we got some phases going we had our pockets pinched too so it's not like we were really poo, there are some good things to take forward. Mako carries loads but used too much by Saracens and England so stats are skewed ( how many were successful carry's)Also I agree we shouldn't make too many changes but our hand has been forced. Hinting at resting players, not a bad thing, and injuries mean we will have to change a significant number. Also we have to adapt to change so we could, god forbid, have a plan b.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Yoda on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 9:15 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Not all players are there to stop players dead though. Players like the Currys would have different jobs. Tackling is a big part but not like a Hsakell.

However in Argentina im pretty sure Curry put a number of thumping hits in...so I think he is capable of making them when required.

Robshaw, well he's slow, undynamic etc etc...yet he was still Englands top player.  

I would love to see a young, pacy , dynamic beast of a backrow trio... however Until Underhill, Curry x 2, Mercer, Clifford, Simmonds etc etc etc can match his level of performances then the shirt is his. Simple as that.

Hughes is in last chance saloon.
Simmonds should move to 12.

On another note...is Manu injured again?

Geordie I agree he was one of our better players, however consider this. If this was the all blacks and they had a good hard working 6 with 70 odd caps but lost three games on the bounce because the ruck wasn't secure would they continue to play the six? They would have replaced him before the inevitable slowing down or changes in tactics seen. No swan song just a thank you very much go play in France the next taxi is ready. If we aspire to be the best then habits have to change.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by robbo277 on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 10:19 pm

Yoda wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Not all players are there to stop players dead though. Players like the Currys would have different jobs. Tackling is a big part but not like a Hsakell.

However in Argentina im pretty sure Curry put a number of thumping hits in...so I think he is capable of making them when required.

Robshaw, well he's slow, undynamic etc etc...yet he was still Englands top player.  

I would love to see a young, pacy , dynamic beast of a backrow trio... however Until Underhill, Curry x 2, Mercer, Clifford, Simmonds etc etc etc can match his level of performances then the shirt is his. Simple as that.

Hughes is in last chance saloon.
Simmonds should move to 12.

On another note...is Manu injured again?

Geordie I agree he was one of our better players, however consider this. If this was the all blacks and they had a good hard working 6 with 70 odd caps but lost three games on the bounce because the ruck wasn't secure would they continue to play the six? They would have replaced him before the inevitable slowing down or changes in tactics seen. No swan song just a thank you very much go play in France the next taxi is ready. If we aspire to be the best then habits have to change.

Lawes was 6 for Scotland and France and it was almost universally acknowledged that the back row balance was off. Haskell came back in the last game when Lawes was injured. We also had Hughes off-the-pace at 8 who was a big step down from Billy.

No, Robshaw isn't the quickest, but he can't hit every ruck himself. We picked an immobile pack with two distributors and fast outside backs. We got shown up 1-8.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by yappysnap on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 2:30 am

Yea lots of issues to deal with before we get to Robshaw. Seems like trying to fix something that isn't broken to me.

Straight away we'll improve if we play players in their positions. So a flanker on the flanks.

Other query to me is 9 and 13. Ford and Farrell are all set. But who's playing 9? If not Ben Youngs then really not Care please. Likewise who's playing 13? JJ seems to be off form

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 8:35 am

Ben Youngs seems to have improved a lot in the last two months Run

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 8:41 am

I'll hold my hands up and say his passing bothered and probably still will bother me. His absence has highlighted what he brings ie a good core set of skills but a lot of organisation to the pack.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 9:53 am

Yoda wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Not all players are there to stop players dead though. Players like the Currys would have different jobs. Tackling is a big part but not like a Hsakell.

However in Argentina im pretty sure Curry put a number of thumping hits in...so I think he is capable of making them when required.

Robshaw, well he's slow, undynamic etc etc...yet he was still Englands top player.  

I would love to see a young, pacy , dynamic beast of a backrow trio... however Until Underhill, Curry x 2, Mercer, Clifford, Simmonds etc etc etc can match his level of performances then the shirt is his. Simple as that.

Hughes is in last chance saloon.
Simmonds should move to 12.

On another note...is Manu injured again?

Geordie I agree he was one of our better players, however consider this. If this was the all blacks and they had a good hard working 6 with 70 odd caps but lost three games on the bounce because the ruck wasn't secure would they continue to play the six? They would have replaced him before the inevitable slowing down or changes in tactics seen. No swan song just a thank you very much go play in France the next taxi is ready. If we aspire to be the best then habits have to change.

I think your being a little harsh on Robshaw to be fair Yoda. As I said before he was almost taking on back rows on his own for large chunks of the 6n. Even McCaw and Pocock would fail miserably.

The whole pack is responsible for hitting rucks, cleaning out and securing possession. I picked out the Launchbury incident before because it epitomised the whole 6n......our ball secured and he's stood with his head down likes he's half asleep. The Scotland no 8 saw this and absolutely smashed him out the way causing a turnover. This type of thing happened numerous times through the 6n...losing possession. That's school boy errors!

I blame the tactics ...quick ball is essential so they put two men in to clean out and secure possession and give fast ball ...however it WASNT working and we got smashed everygame....yet they kept doing it! Wasn't it Einstein that said doing the same thing over and expecting different results is insanity!


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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 9:55 am

Oh and did I say Simmonds should move to 12...pace, power, hard running, can ruck, can tackle.
Made for the 12 shirt.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by robbo277 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:09 am

yappysnap wrote:Yea lots of issues to deal with before we get to Robshaw. Seems like trying to fix something that isn't broken to me.

Straight away we'll improve if we play players in their positions. So a flanker on the flanks.

Other query to me is 9 and 13. Ford and Farrell are all set. But who's playing 9? If not Ben Youngs then really not Care please. Likewise who's playing 13? JJ seems to be off form

Is it just a form thing for Care and Joseph? Both have hit the level required before. You'd be more willing to draw a line under the Six Nations and give them another go in the squad - hopefully with the pack fixed.

Options at 9 are thin, and you'd think that someone who isn't Youngs or Care will tour this summer, at least as a third choice.

Slade is the popular option at 13, possibly with Te'o or Tuilagi at 12. Interestingly, Eddie Jones has spoken about Nowell at 13 before, so could play Nowell at 13 with Daly, May and Brown in the back three (Watson recovering at home). Playing Watson at full back was partly because Brown was solid if unspectacular and partly because he had so many talented wingers he wanted to try to get them all on the pitch. Watson at 15 (where he plays for his club) makes more sense as an experiment than Lawes at 6 (where he has sporadically played), but if Joseph doesn't get back to his previous levels he could move a winger in to get more of them on the pitch.

I don't think Ford and Farrell are set either, it's not how we lined up in the Ireland game. Although Eddie Jones might not often divert from that plan, he could rest Farrell this summer and try new centre partnerships (as above, a Tuilagi/Slade partnership is potentially a goer). If a new partnership takes, then it might be Ford or Farrell at 10.

If Care and Joseph were fit, they'd both go to South Africa as squad options for me. But I'd be looking to line up; Youngs, Ford, Tuilagi and Slade for that first test, if everyone was available. You could then put Care and Joseph on the bench with Slade covering 10. Daly, Nowell, May and Brown would be your other 4 backs in some permutation. I think those matchday backs should be good enough to give the Boks a match without anyone moaning it's a B team.

You could then bring a couple of options at 9 and 15 and give them squad exposure via training so they can compete for spots in the Autumn and beyond, and cover any injuries.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Yoda on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:20 am

I see your point Geordie he's not first on the lost for improvement/replacement as he is useful at six provided the backrow balance is addressed. Not convinced he wouldn't have been replaced in other nations but I made a massive assumption that there is someone better about, and frankly no-one has put their hand up yet. I think 13 is less of an issue than 12, we had three English qualified players at 12 last round of prem including teo??. Lowowski,Sam James are options but again not ripping up trees. Slade is a good 13 and I think our long term 13. Simmonds I don't think should be made into a 12, alot more to the position than running lines. It's a mess when you think about it and a difficult job. If only the rfu had three clubs to control and play the best players in the positions we need.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 10:54 am

Yoda wrote:I see your point Geordie he's not first on the lost for improvement/replacement as he is useful at six provided the backrow balance is addressed. Not convinced he wouldn't have been replaced in other nations but I made a massive assumption that there is someone better about, and frankly no-one has put their hand up yet. I think 13 is less of an issue than 12, we had three English qualified players at 12 last round of prem including teo??.  Lowowski,Sam James are options but again not ripping up trees. Slade is a good 13 and I think our long term 13. Simmonds I don't think should be made into a 12, alot more to the position than running lines. It's a mess when you think about it and a difficult job. If only the rfu had three clubs to control and play the best players in the positions we need.

Therein lies the problem with the back row.

We all list different players...but they're either not in form (Hughes, Haskell (on the wane now)) ...Unproven (Ben Curry, Mercer, Simmonds) or constantly injured (Clifford, Underhill, Tom Curry) or not rated (Armand, Ewers, Mark Wilson, Kvesic etc

As to the centers...

Jamie Joseph seems to have big dips in form...he's not a consistent player.

I'd be looking to get Slade involved now...and ive always liked Sam James but again he's not really pulling up trees.

What actual EQ options do we have at each club?


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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 11:25 am

EQ Centres at Leicester not really much help:

Charlie Thacker - young and unlikely to be good enough
Manu - always injured
Tait/Smith - too old

Guys who can play centre:

Olowefela - 13/Wing/FB - decent for U20s but would really need to kick on to ever be a contender some way down the line.
Hardwicke - 10 who can play 12 - probably unlikely to ever be in the mix for England, but has looked good for U20s and in AWC
Youngs - former England U21 centre Run

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 12:03 pm

That's the thing LT, theres not a stream of outstanding talent "ready".

Francis - Meh
Joseph - Blows hot and cold
Marchant - Whats happening with him
Sam James - Has he pushed on?
Slade - Should be given a chance now
T'eo - Meh / Average
Lozowski - Is he a 12? a 10 of a 15 - and good enough?
Daly - Is he a 13, a wing or a 15
Manu - Injured
Malinder - 10, 12, 13, 15 - What is he?
Trinder - Seems in top form and injury free...
Sam Hill - Has he pushed on..?
Tom Stephenson - Injury plagued, possibly dropping to the championship with Irish
Johnny Williams - Progress has stalled.

Have I missed any?

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by robbo277 on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 12:14 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:That's the thing LT, theres not a stream of outstanding talent "ready".

Francis - Meh
Joseph - Blows hot and cold
Marchant - Whats happening with him
Sam James - Has he pushed on?
Slade - Should be given a chance now
T'eo - Meh / Average
Lozowski - Is he a 12? a 10 of a 15 - and good enough?
Daly - Is he a 13, a wing or a 15
Manu - Injured
Malinder - 10, 12, 13, 15 - What is he?
Trinder - Seems in top form and injury free...
Sam Hill - Has he pushed on..?
Tom Stephenson - Injury plagued, possibly dropping to the championship with Irish
Johnny Williams - Progress has stalled.

Have I missed any?

Someone said Mallinder was a 15 the other day, and that's now pretty nailed on.

One you have missed is Ollie Devoto who made Eddie's first 23. Not sure how he's getting on at Exeter though.

Looking for internationally capped centres, is the door definitely shut for Twelvetrees and Burrell? And Banahan too Wink I guess one of those would have to start showing unreal club form to get another look, or if we suffer a huge series of injuries.

As above, Tuilagi, Te'o, Slade and Joseph would be my centres on tour, possibly with a space for a Marchant or a Sam Hill who might benefit from touring, even if they're not in the reckoning for immediate caps. I'd keep Daly and Nowell on the wing for now, but they can cover centre in a pinch, as can Lozowski if he goes as the back-up 10.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 12:29 pm

Ah yes I forgot about Devoto the big hope from a few years back.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Barney McGrew did it on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 12:41 pm

My opinion is that England are in a somewhat worse position than should be expected (even taking into account our last 6N performance) given Eddie’s had 3 years or so. The next RWC is only approx. 18 months away and it’s unlikely we’ll go into it as favourites or ranked no 1. One plus is that reality has been thrust upon us and hopefully the overhyping talk of taking on NZ will be hauled in.

SH: we’re relying on Youngs starting and Care on the bench – any injuries puts us in trouble.
FH: does EJ still trust Ford for the big matches (see the Ire game)? Or is it OF? This choice also effects the centre combination.
Hooker, like SH, is a specialized position where we need 3 players who have had the test exposure to allow injury replacement, rather than resorting to old hands that are past it.
BR: it’s a dog’s dinner – I get this feeling that if everyone was fit EJ would stick with what once appeared to be a short-term call of Robskell & Billy. And for all of the vast list of BR names that keeps cropping up, few have shown, or been selected enough to show, anything other than some small promise. A classic case of depth over strength, or poor selection? And why are so many picking up injuries?
The front five is as much about tactics as selection (altho Danny boy is showing his age) – but clearly EJ got the tackle/ruck tactics wrong this 6N. Or are these tactics the only ones used in the AP?

Post-Lions fatigue may well result in a bit of a dip, but 5th?! I know I’m going to be unpopular with some, but we spanked Scotland last year, and Wales pumped them this year. And in the Wales game 2nd half France were as toothless as I’ve ever seen them. And yet they both brushed past us with some ease. I’ll just about accept the Ireland result, but at HQ we should be making them work harder for it.

My current concern with Eddie is that whilst his record suggests he can get the best out of the group of players he mostly inherited (up til the 6N, that is), he has yet to show his ideas for how the team should be developed for the next RWC, particularly in the weaker areas of BR, centre & correct balance between set-piece and ruck.

The whole squad has something to prove this summer, but none more so than Eddie.
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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

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