England - Summer Tour to South Africa

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England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 12:54 pm

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

9 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg SkySports action
16 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - Toyota Stadium, Bloemfontein SkySports action
23 June - 16:05: South Africa v England - DHL Newlands, Cape Town SkySports action




Officials

1st Test
Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

2nd Test
Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 1: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

3rd Test
Referee: Glen Jackson (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)



Squads

TBC


Last edited by LondonTiger on Tue 08 May 2018, 11:16 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 4:00 pm

I see Dai Young (Wasps) and Mark McCall (Saracens) have both pushed back a little at the idea that Premiership club demands are to blame for England being off-colour.

Both point out that England did well enough the last two years under the same environment, which is a fair point. However, I thought many players needed rest in 2016, instead of going on the Australian tour. After the 3-0 win, I wasn't sure I was right, since that seemed to act as a big boost to confidence. Now I'm swinging back.

And that's always the dilemma. How do you balance resting a squad, with maintaining a winning run?

Well, since the last World Cup, no teams have really looked that great away from home, except for New Zealand. Ireland came close in South Africa, but, now we know how bad the Boks were at that time, and how good Ireland should have been, that looks more like a missed opportunity.

England's series whitewash is a standout but, longer term, we might have been better off resting players and risking the loss. After all, we are talking about doing exactly that now, for South Africa, when perhaps experimenting in 2016, and closing in on a final squad for 2018 would have been more sensible.


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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Yoda on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 6:27 pm

Fair point about the back row injuries, that's a hell of lot lads out. Let's hope that the 2017/18 season is a one off. Is this due to too much Rugby? The training England do? That's a headache Eddie has to fix.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by robbo277 on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 6:54 pm

Haven't read the full article yet, but this is interesting in the context of International rugby.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2018/03/22/top-ian-ritchies-agenda-new-premiership-chairman-end-promotion/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by SecretFly on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 7:03 pm

Ian Ritchie? The name rings a bell. I've heard it somewhere before. 'Honest broker' seems to be a term I remember too..............................



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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 9:08 pm

Two day week and a substantial 5 figure salary? Hard life. Wonder who he's promised to shaft

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 9:13 pm

I hadn't heard about Sam Jones...that very bad news

Especially as it was nothing actually rugby related...doing judo in training...

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by yappysnap on Fri 23 Mar 2018, 3:45 am

Lots of training injuries it seems.

Got to wonder what benefit it actually had for the players. I mean, they're pro's so they're already well trained, at least they were well trained and skillful enough to be selected, do they need this matcho beasting to get better?

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Yoda on Fri 23 Mar 2018, 9:25 pm

Telegraph was saying Clifford is back and the curries this week. Greenwood picked O'Connor in his squad for SA along with Chisholm of quins. Might work but hopefully these injuries don't reappear gives Eddie a chance to see what's what.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 23 Mar 2018, 10:05 pm

Lets see if Clifford can make it till the end of the season without getting injured again.


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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Yoda on Sat 24 Mar 2018, 1:48 pm

Yep poor lad has been injured for the best part of year. Geordie F would you gladly give up Dave walder for attack coach if it helps England. Do you rate him?

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by mid_gen on Sat 24 Mar 2018, 2:41 pm

Chisholm deserves a shot at 8. He's the sort of back row player we need, quick and runs good lines, but also a big physical lump that loves going hard into contact and getting stuck in.

He's been playing better than Hughes and Simmonds in that regard.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by englishborn on Sat 24 Mar 2018, 5:02 pm

Well Ben Curry has to be look at for the summer played excellent today, was quick to every breakdown, turned the ball over and even got a try. Tom when he came on was also good.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Yoda on Sat 24 Mar 2018, 10:09 pm

Chisholm got brushed off by Maro today against Saracens. Was quite anonymous , he's had better days. Merchant looks promising mind.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 2:02 am

Yoda wrote:Yep poor lad has been injured for the best part of year. Geordie F would you gladly give up Dave walder for attack coach if it helps England. Do you rate him?
Honestly...Walder is good for us, though we still can be slightly inconsistent (see tonights attacking performance...woeful) but there's probably better attacking coaches out there for England.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 2:14 am

Anyone wonder if Hughes knee is suspect now? Maybe why he's not quite making the physical impact that was hoped, or like he has previously? Just a thought made by one of my Saints pals up for the game today. It made sense what he said actually.

Agree above that both Curry brothers need to be looked at. That openside is theirs for the taking.


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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Yoda on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 11:45 am

Hughes on form is a beast and the player you saw this six nations was a shell of the player he is. He never should have played and will take along time to recover. I could tell he wasn't right against Scotland when huw Jones went waltzing through. For wasps on form huw would have been emptied by Hughes. Eddie has ruined one already promising player for us, sam jones, who was starting to realise his potential. Whether Hughes ever gets back to that physical level who knows? It seems like a long time ago where he virtually took on the whole of the Exeter pack on during the Prem final last year. Unfortunately it was for nothing as he gave away the stupid penalty in the last min for Steenson to draw them level. Sad Sad

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 9:26 pm

Genge made a helluva impact today from the bench.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Mr Bounce on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 7:47 pm

I think Gabriel Ibitoye deserves to be on the plane to SA. He was fantastic in his MOM performance for England U20s against Ireland and looks to be a real livewire of a player. I'm not saying start him, but he could be a valuable asset to our wingers.

Both Currys should go - I think Ben was cruelly overlooked this season and could really have helped our back-row issues. Isiekwe too - but he must go as a lock.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by yappysnap on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 8:44 pm

Ibitoye has been out standing for club and country every chance he's got this season. Too early for him atm but he seems like a better rounded version of Wade. Him and M Smith in the same backline in the future should be exciting

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by ChequeredJersey on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 10:23 pm

I'll justify my choices a little later:

Back 3: Daly (as a 15), May, Nowell if fit, Hammersley (would say Haley but he's off to Munster),  Earle, Roko, and one of Ibitoye or Cokanasiga. Maybe Brown to tutor the aspiring full backs (which includes Daly) and to come in to steady the ship if needed, or maybe rest the old man. Watson injured.


Centres- (would have said Manu until he got injured yet again...) Slade, Marchant, Francis, Teo (last chance). Joseph rested. Covered by Daly and Nowell.


Fly halves- Lozowski, Smith, Burns. Ford and Farrell rested


Scrum half - Care, Maunder, Robson. Youngs out. Maybe rest Care for a 9 like Spencer or Young.


Backrow- Vunipola if fit, Simmonds, Willis, Curry, Wilson (as a stand in Robshaw), Mercer, Clifford, Earle, Wray. Robshaw and Hughes rested


Locks: Lawes, Launchbury, Ewels, Isiekwe, Kitchener. Itoje and Kruis rested


Props: Marler, Genge, Obano, Bateman, Sinckler, Williams, Wilson. Mako rested


Hookers: George, LCD, Dunn. Hartley rested.
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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by king_carlos on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 10:34 pm

Interesting suggestion of Bateman, CJ. Which side would you consider him on?

He has certainly outplayed a few internationals in the Tigers front row this season. He's got the upper-hand in set-piece against some good operators too.

He's become one of my favourite Tigers but IMO his change to prop has come too late for international rugby. I think that lack of experience could be exposed at set-piece and the huge step-up required in defensive work-rate would likely drain his attacking play.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 10:40 pm

CJ I'm a falcons fan but I'm afraid Hammersley should be nowhere near the SA tour. Decent prem FB no more. Id rather take Alex Tait and he's not good enough either and too old.

Do we have NO out and out classy FB's coming through?

Is Nowell an Option At FB. Personally I think the Watson trial should be ended and keep him as a classy strike winger.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 10:48 pm

What about Joe Simmonds?

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by ChequeredJersey on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 10:57 pm

Fair enough. Woodward is an option. I like Earl at FB as an idea. 

FB is a weak area, lots of foreign FBs, plus players like Watson playing there when they are clearly better elsewhere. Real shame we are losing Haley to Ireland
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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by ChequeredJersey on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 11:02 pm

Bateman primarily as a loosehead but the flexibility helps
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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by ChequeredJersey on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 11:11 pm

Chisholm is the future but there are others in the backrow queue to check out first
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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Yoda on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 11:44 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:I'll justify my choices a little later:

Back 3: Daly (as a 15), May, Nowell if fit, Hammersley (would say Haley but he's off to Munster),  Earle, Roko, and one of Ibitoye or Cokanasiga. Maybe Brown to tutor the aspiring full backs (which includes Daly) and to come in to steady the ship if needed, or maybe rest the old man. Watson injured.


Centres- (would have said Manu until he got injured yet again...) Slade, Marchant, Francis, Teo (last chance). Joseph rested. Covered by Daly and Nowell.


Fly halves- Lozowski, Smith, Burns. Ford and Farrell rested


Scrum half - Care, Maunder, Robson. Youngs out. Maybe rest Care for a 9 like Spencer or Young.


Backrow- Vunipola if fit, Simmonds, Willis, Curry, Wilson (as a stand in Robshaw), Mercer, Clifford, Earle, Wray. Robshaw and Hughes rested


Locks: Lawes, Launchbury, Ewels, Isiekwe, Kitchener. Itoje and Kruis rested


Props: Marler, Genge, Obano, Bateman, Sinckler, Williams, Wilson. Mako rested


Hookers: George, LCD, Dunn. Hartley rested.

Daly could play 15 but he is an excellent 13. Good squad but wouldn't take burns too hot and cold, Simmonds Jr looks like a Ford type player do we need another? Lewington is another I would throw into mix looks good in a shocking side and better than Nathan Earle imo. Haley's alright but only against broken defense so no loss really especially when Ireland have that youngster at leister.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 10:07 am

Think this is a huge opportunity for some.players so there is a bit of pressure on despite sa being in the doldrums. Jones is looking at some fresh approaches and whereas in the past we've seen people impress and fall out of view this time I can see some being carried over into the AIs for a proper run.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 12:20 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Bateman primarily as a loosehead but the flexibility helps

I love Greg Bateman and will be voting for him as our player of the season. However I do not feel he is good enough for England, especially if 3 other LHs are already selected (even with Mako rested).

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 12:30 pm

And re FB, going down the league table looking at who is playing:

Dollman - Welsh
Goode - not Good(e) enough
Le Roux - Saffa
Hammersley/Tait - not good enough
Veainu - Tongan Kiwi
Marshall/Woodward - Kiwi/EQP Kiwi
Haley - Soon to be Irish
Watson - better on wing
Brown - incumbent
Tuala - Samoan
Adams/Pennell - Welsh/getting on
Marshall/Bell - Kiwi/Not good enough

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by rosbif on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 1:01 pm

ref scrum halves

Scrum half - Care, Maunder, Robson. Youngs out. Maybe rest Care for a 9 like Spencer or Young.

Mauders has hardly played any first team rugby this season it would be better to try his team mate Stu Townsend a year older but a lot more experienced.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 1:22 pm

I still think the next full back will already be in the squad. Watson day or Nowell. I personally think Watson now needs a run of games there albeit with the caveat of what could happen in the summer.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by majesticimperialman on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 5:38 pm

Although Watson does look good at ful back i still he is a better wing than Full Back.

I do not like the idea of playing players out of position.

There must be some good full backs available from the under 20s squad, that could be ready to move up to international level.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 8:32 pm

What about Malins at FB...or is he likely to be challenging the young quins lad for the FH spot?

IS Nowell a genuine option at 15? Has he played there for Exeter?

Watson is going to HAVE to work on his defensive side to make the 15 spot his own. Will that lose the attacking aspects he possesses or will he become a truly world class player?

Daly to 15 is another option...he has the kick..but again is he strong enough defensively?

I confess I like a FB who has a bit of physical presence.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Yoda on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 8:39 pm

Mallander has nailed his colours to fullback next year apparently. Decent prospect but naive for international so will need decent coaching.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 8:44 pm

Mallinder looks a million miles away from the England FB spot

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by ChequeredJersey on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 9:07 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I still think the next full back will already be in the squad. Watson day or Nowell.  I personally think Watson now needs a run of games there albeit with the caveat of what could happen in the summer.


I really think Watson doesn't have it at FB. He's world class on the wing but lacks key awareness to play 15 against top sides, and it negates his strengths outwide whilst adding little. Everyone thinks "he's brilliant ball in hand, so at FB he'll be better with more ball" but aside from ignoring the rest of the role of FB, in attack it ignores what aspects of attacking play Watson is actually good at

Cut our losses. Try someone who might actually be better there than at wing, and that is pretty much every other option in the squad
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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by ChequeredJersey on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 9:08 pm

Mallinder at FB reminds me of my one school outing (usually a flanker) at FB. I was awful
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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 9:16 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I still think the next full back will already be in the squad. Watson day or Nowell.  I personally think Watson now needs a run of games there albeit with the caveat of what could happen in the summer.


I really think Watson doesn't have it at FB. He's world class on the wing but lacks key awareness to play 15 against top sides, and it negates his strengths outwide whilst adding little. Everyone thinks "he's brilliant ball in hand, so at FB he'll be better with more ball" but aside from ignoring the rest of the role of FB, in attack it ignores what aspects of attacking play Watson is actually good at

Cut our losses. Try someone who might actually be better there than at wing, and that is pretty much every other option in the squad

thumbsup spot on mate

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by yappysnap on Fri 30 Mar 2018, 12:00 am

Won't Solomena be going to SA? He's been in and around the squads, then there's Earle who's a wing/FB and Jones seems to rate.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 30 Mar 2018, 4:36 am

Can't help feeling a bit of regret that Jones didn't take Chris Ashton to Australia in 2016. He selected him in his Six Nations squad but Ashton promptly got banned for "hands near the eye area", and Jones decided to go with Marlon Yarde instead on tour. That decision was a major reason Ashton gave up on England, and went to Toulon.

Yarde didn't do too badly, but his subsequent career has been chequered. Even if you don't think Ashton would press for a berth in the current England squad, it would be good to have him in the frame, in a world where Solomona is touted for hsi try-scoring ability.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 30 Mar 2018, 9:14 am

I think it's more the tactical side that I'm more concerned about rather than the individuals

Though players like Earle etc just don't look the required grade to me.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 30 Mar 2018, 9:52 am

Solomona about to be done for homophobic abuse.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 30 Mar 2018, 12:34 pm

Brad Shields just drew a defender, and gave a scoring pass, leading the commentators to call him "England's next number six".

Hurricanes blew the Rebels away in Melbourne, and they have looked the best of the Australians. Given that Eddie Jones wants a leadership group, it won't have escaped his notice that Shields is captain of the Huurricanes side.

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 30 Mar 2018, 2:17 pm

Yoda wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:I'll justify my choices a little later:

Back 3: Daly (as a 15), May, Nowell if fit, Hammersley (would say Haley but he's off to Munster),  Earle, Roko, and one of Ibitoye or Cokanasiga. Maybe Brown to tutor the aspiring full backs (which includes Daly) and to come in to steady the ship if needed, or maybe rest the old man. Watson injured.


Centres- (would have said Manu until he got injured yet again...) Slade, Marchant, Francis, Teo (last chance). Joseph rested. Covered by Daly and Nowell.


Fly halves- Lozowski, Smith, Burns. Ford and Farrell rested


Scrum half - Care, Maunder, Robson. Youngs out. Maybe rest Care for a 9 like Spencer or Young.


Backrow- Vunipola if fit, Simmonds, Willis, Curry, Wilson (as a stand in Robshaw), Mercer, Clifford, Earle, Wray. Robshaw and Hughes rested


Locks: Lawes, Launchbury, Ewels, Isiekwe, Kitchener. Itoje and Kruis rested


Props: Marler, Genge, Obano, Bateman, Sinckler, Williams, Wilson. Mako rested


Hookers: George, LCD, Dunn. Hartley rested.

Daly could play 15 but he is an excellent 13. Good squad but wouldn't take burns too hot and cold, Simmonds Jr looks like a Ford type player do we need another? Lewington is another I would throw into mix looks good in a shocking side and better than Nathan Earle imo. Haley's alright but only against broken defense so no loss really especially when Ireland have that youngster at leister.

CJ, Lawes has had far too much rugby, he has played virtually non stop for about 3 years. On the Lions tour he was playing midweek and second half for the Lions and it is starting to show. I can't remember an England game he has not played in if available. He needs a summer off to recover at the moment he is a shadow of the player we know he can be as, I think it was Scottf said, he is held together with string and sticky tape"

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by ChequeredJersey on Fri 30 Mar 2018, 5:17 pm

Fair. I'd consider Will Spencer
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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 30 Mar 2018, 11:14 pm

I would take Spencer aswell..he's a big lad.

Sean Robinson. He's had Itoje in his pocket so many times He's due a little trip with England. Whistle Wink

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by yappysnap on Fri 30 Mar 2018, 11:19 pm

Come on Geordie you know the rules. I good player can't actually be good if they're not in the top team. Ergo Itoje it better no matter the performance. Simples

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by yappysnap on Fri 30 Mar 2018, 11:20 pm

On a more serious note it'll be interesting to see if falcons recent success gets any more of their players picked. Or if they'll be like Exeter and still avoid int selection

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 30 Mar 2018, 11:58 pm

Is Will Spencer any good?

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Re: England - Summer Tour to South Africa

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