Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

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Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 20 Mar 2018, 6:35 pm

First topic message reminder :

Here’s an easy one. Who was the first European rugby union to win all tests in a tour series in the Southern Hemisphere?

Whilst Ireland's playing history - home and away - against South Africa and New Zealand was littered with one failure after another in the amateur days, surprisingly their record against Australia is pockmarked with wins at home and on the road, albeit matches were held less frequently in the BSE - Baggy Shorts Era.

Not many people might know this, but Ireland has had 4 proper rugby tours of Australia - in 1967, 1979, 1994, and 1999. By proper, I mean old-style tours involving matches against provincial union or state teams as well as one or two test matches against the Wallabies. And rather surprisingly, Ireland have won two tours and lost two.

Ireland’s fifth tour of Australia begins with the first of three tests on 9 June and it promises to settle a few scores, mark the overall ledger up in favour of one, and probably create a few bragging and bagging rights along the way for fans and commentators.

Australia won the first two tests between the countries in 1927 and 1947 in Lansdowne Road in Dublin. On the Australian tour of Britain, Ireland and France in 1958, Ireland got their first test win on the board. Over the next 20 years, the teams met 7 times, with Ireland winning six of them, including their first-ever away test in Sydney as part of their first 6-game tour of Australia in 1967.

Ireland's last two test wins in Australia were those of the famous 1979 tour when the Irish team had their most successful winning patch, playing 8 games, including two tests, and losing just once against local representative team, Sydney.

Ollie Campbell, Mike Gibson, Terry Kennedy, Paul McNaughton, Tony Ward, Willie Duggan, Moss Keane, Fergus Slattery were some of the more well-known names on that tour. Tony Ward was the star name playing outhalf for Ireland. He had been named European Player of the Year for the second year running. All the running assumptions were that he’d play in a few of the run-up games and start the first test at the helm. A few days beforehand, the Irish manager and coach thought different and, inexplicably to nearly everyone, picked Campbell to start.

Across the two tests, Ireland scored 36 points with Campbell kicking 28 of them bringing his total to 60 points for the tour. He was named player of the tour. Ward, by his own admission in his autobiography, never played as well again and laid blame squarely at the manager and coach’s door for how they handled what became known in Irish rugby as ‘The Decision’.

Campbell returned home the hero of the hour by helping to claim the first individual tour victory in all tests by a northern team in the Southern Hemisphere. (France had won a test match but drawn the other test on tours of SA in 1958 and Oz 1972.) After the tour, Ireland’s overall win record stood at 6 wins to Australia’s 3.

Campbell and the team were cheered to the rafters. Ireland went on to win the Five Nations in 1982, shared it with France in 1983 and won it outright again in 1985. And then the curtain came down. And the roof started to fall in.

Two further 2-test tours against Australia followed in 1994 and 1999 - Ireland lost all the test matches and most of the midweek games against ACT, Sydney, and New South Wales amongst others.

Those two tours formed part of what is probably the lowest period in Irish rugby. Ireland played 11 tests against Australia, 8 versus New Zealand and 6 against South Africa between 1980 and 2002 - they lost every game. Despite their initial successes in the 1980s, their record in that period against Five/Six Nations opponents was not much better - 3 wins from 24 against France, 7 from 24 vs both England and Scotland, and even losing 3 from 8 against Italy.

From 2001 onwards, when professionalism finally took hold, and Irish provinces entered the Celtic League, the fortunes of the Irish provinces and test side changed - first under Eddie O'Sullivan, winning a test again against Australia in 2002 and for the first time against South Africa (2004). They moved from being regular wooden spooners in the 90's to competing at the top in the new Six Nations. Then they finally achieved a second Grand Slam in 2009 with Declan Kidney, 61 years after their first. They remained unbeaten that year finishing with a 15-10 win against Lions victors and the reigning Tri-Nations champions, South Africa.

Of course, after Ireland finally won again in 2002, Australia promptly won the next four tests. Another Irish win in 2006 was followed by two Wallaby wins and a draw. Then came the RWC pool match in 2011 with both teams meeting on neutral NZ territory. Australia ran into Stephen Ferris and Sean O’Brien for the first time and Will Genia found himself being picked up and carried backwards whilst his team-mates were held up time and again in the famous choke tackle and eventually out of the game. Australia won the next test in 2013, and Ireland won the next one a year later, and the next one again in 2016.

Nonetheless, Australia continue to have the upper hand - 21 wins to Ireland’s 11 (and a sister-smooching draw). But Ireland is determined to close the gap further.

So now it’s the turn of Joe Schmidt to bring the Ireland squad down-under for a three-test series in June. Expectations are high with Ireland’s recent Grand Slam win and recent record against the Wallabies.

Except they haven’t won in Oz for 39 years.

Their last away loss was in Brisbane in June 2010 as part of a NZ/Aus Tour. On that day, newcomer outhalf, Johnny Sexton, kicked all of Ireland’s 15 points in the first half, to Australia’s 16 points. But the Declan Kidney-coached team, off the back of a 97-point shellacking from the All Blacks and NZ Maori in the previous weeks, and down a few key players, couldn’t overtake the Wallabies as Giteau notched another couple of penalties to finish them off - 22-15.

Eight years on from Brisbane, both teams are in different places and ranking. Cheika is hoping to fashion a team that can compete and win in the Rugby Championship. He needs a decent scalp on his belt going into that battle. Schmidt has the 6N in his back pocket and a team that is beginning to hum nicely with a mix of old heads and young hearts running a new 12-match streak. Ireland are the current holders of the Lansdowne Cup - the trophy fought between the two sides since 1999.

England, Scotland & Wales have announced squads with development and player rest on their minds as coaches seek to add depth to their squads for RWC 2019. Irish pundits and fans have been making similar noises querying whether players such as Sexton, Murray, Furlong, Stander should rest up on their summer hols and let the younger Turks get more time and experience. Schmidt has faced this before, imposed through injury rather than selection by choice, when he brought a relatively raw squad to South Africa and gave much needed game time to some new faces including Furlong, Henderson, Roux, Stander, and Marmion.

Schmidt will want to win the series, but he needs to give more time to the newbies. He’s got a few injuries such as Henderson, O’Brien, Farrell, Best but still has plenty of choice this time around and all of them hungry for some tasty wallaby.

Ireland Squad (Summer Tour 2018, Australia)

FORWARDS (18)

Tadhg Beirne (Scarlets) uncapped
Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster) 7 caps
Sean Cronin (St Mary's College/Leinster) 61 caps
Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster) 23 caps
Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 78 caps
Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 38 caps
Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster) 3 caps
Dan Leavy (UCD/Leinster) 9 caps
Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster) 47 caps
Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 20 caps
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster) 47 caps
Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster) 7 caps
Quinn Roux (Galwegians/Connacht) 5 caps
James Ryan (UCD/Leinster) 8 caps
John Ryan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 13 caps
Niall Scannell (Munster) 4 caps
CJ Stander (Shannon/Munster) 23 caps
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 58 caps

BACKS (14)
Bundee Aki (Galwegians/Connacht) 7 caps
Ross Byrne (UCD/Leinster) uncapped
Joey Carbery (Clontarf/Leinster) 10 caps
Andrew Conway (Garryowen/Munster) 6 caps
John Cooney (Terenure College RFC/Ulster) 1 cap
Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 67 caps
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Leinster) 33 caps
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 83 caps
Jordan Larmour (St Mary's College/Leinster) 3 caps
Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht) 21 caps
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 64 caps
Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) 13 caps
Johnny Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster) 73 caps
Jacob Stockdale (Ballynahnch/Ulster) 9 caps

IRELAND SUMMER TOUR 2018 FIXTURES

Saturday 9th June, 2018
Australia v IRELAND
Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane, KO 20.05 local (11.05 IRL)

Saturday 16th June, 2018
Australia v IRELAND
AAMI Park, Melbourne, KO 20.05 local (11.05 IRL)

Saturday 23rd June, 2018
Australia v IRELAND
Allianz Park, Sydney KO 20.05 local (11.05 IRL)


Ireland win the series 2-1 with the final test in Sydney ending 20-16.


Last edited by Pot Hale on Sat 23 Jun 2018, 3:19 pm; edited 9 times in total
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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by carpet baboon on Sun 10 Jun 2018, 1:09 am

eirebilly wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:Forgot to tape the game. Anyone know where I may find a recording?

Back in 2001? Wink

I will load it onto YouTube and send ye a link thumbsup

Are you telling me that I can improve on my super betamax home system?

Cheers billy

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by Engine#4 on Sun 10 Jun 2018, 4:58 pm

A disappointing loss but plenty to be positive about. Lots of mistakes but had plenty of the play. Kept Australian chances down but could have had three tries. 1- held up when Stander went through. 2- knocked on by Murray due to an Aussie hand. 3- disallowed by a mystery knock on. Not many players had great games yet Ireland could have won that.

Some big players had glaring errors. Henshaw in defence. Sexton killing all momentum by missing touch with a penalty. Murray flapping, moaning and knocking on instead of getting the ball out of the Frak ruck for the score.

The officials were terrible. Made obvious mistakes and both teams would have cause for complaint. All in all a disappointment but Ireland are in this series.

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by rodders on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 3:37 am

Agree with all that Engine.

Disappointing loss and a bit of reality check as well in that we struggled with the pace and power Australia had for a lot of the game. That said it could have went either way and an excellent game.

Henshaw made a couple of bad calls in defence and we got out of jail a couple of times ourselves with Stockdales try saver and Australia unlucky with the disallowed try themselves.

For out part, I thought both were tries, Stander looked to have grounded the ball and no one other that the TMO saw a KO for Marmion's. Carbury missed and easy enough penalty too.

I do think we are under pressure now to win the next game, a narrow series loss would be disappointing but given how strong the Wallabies were a whitewash is possible if we don't make some big improvements and take our chances in the next test.

Kearney also wasn't great the back and made a couple of errors, one of which led to the first try.

Sexton, Leavy, Healy, Cronin, Ringrose and Furlong should all bring something but I expect the Wallabies will be stronger too.

NZ look out there on their own but the Wallabies look dangerous a year out from the RWC.



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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by JmD on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 4:01 am

Anyway lads, let's kick off the week with some team discussion. Here's what I would go for:

1) Cian Healy
2) Rob Herring
3) Tadgh Furlong

The usual starting props are rotated back in after McGrath and Ryan were solid stand-ins. Herring was one of the few bright spots and deserved to keep his place after a rock solid showing at the lineout.

4) James Ryan
5) Iain Henderson

The Irish pair dominated the Aussie pair all over the field last week, so no need to tweak this partnership. Beirne to feature off the bench, as he offers (considerably) more dynamism than Roux.

6) Peter O'Mahony
7) Dan Leavy
8) CJ Stander

O'Mahony retains his spot on account of the captaincy more so than anything else, while Leavy brings some much needed balance and breakdown aggression to the back row. CJ Stander must demonstrate an ability to complete at least 2 passes to make up for butchering his try opportunity.

9) Conor Murray
10) Johnny Sexton

Sexton to start and give the back line some much needed shape and structure going forward. Murray a no-brainer, even though he lost his cool at the end of the game (Didn't we all?).

12) Robbie Henshaw
13) Garry Ringrose

Previously Henshaw looked lost defending the 13 channel, while Aki ran Ireland into trouble with his poor decision making. In steps just the man to kill two birds with one stone, Garry Ringrose.

11) Jacob Stockdale
14) Andrew Conway
15) Rob Kearney

With Earls seemingly nursing a head injury, Conway gets another starting opportunity in an Ireland jersey that he has always performed well in. Stockdale will be looking for more ball-in-hand opportunities this week. Kearney needs to pose more of an aerial threat to stop Folau imposing his will under the high ball.

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by Pete330v2 on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 4:02 am

It was very frustrating indeed as the error count mounted. Henshaw's day at the office and that dropped ball by Kearney really did emphasis how out of character the errors were for a usually extremely well drilled Irish side. It does also highlight how fragile our form is and now, for the second test the side is under horrendous pressure, it's sink or swim now.
I did look like CJ got the ball grounded and I expected the question from the referee to be 'is there any reason'. I'm also yet to see the clear knock on, if anyone can enlighten me I'd be happy to be wrong on this but I think that was also a try. That's two major decisions that could have went for us but them's the breaks. There were more incidents that went against us that were of our own making so you can't really complain about a couple of tight decisions. There's a lot of room for improvement and hopefully Joe won't experiment with the side again fielding the strongest one he can.

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by rodders on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 4:23 am

The officials were appalling but couldn't attribute the result to the decisions.

On another day we'd have scored 2 tries but that disallowed wallabies try and a couple of odd calls against Pocock balance it out so on balance Australia deserved their win.

The individual errors can be stamped out, the bigger concern for me is how physical the Wallabies were.  

Ireland pretty much dominated physically in the 6N but in the areas we have been so strong this season - on the deck and under the high ball - we were second best on Saturday so will have to come up with something extra.  

It's been a long season so can we find a couple of extra gears, I am not sure, this is a massive challenge over the next 2 weeks.
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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by Sin é on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 4:59 am

Ireland made the errors because of the pace of the game. The Aussies were relentless. Super fit team. Stockdale couldn't move because they were double marking him the whole time (he gave six turnovers).

Australia had basically two opensides, while Ireland had a 6.5 at 7. Jordi wasn't going to be able to compete on the ground for that. Leavy should make a big difference.

Ireland's lineout was very good (I think 3 steals), they should have been kicking the corners a lot more as they would also have slowed the game down a bit.

It was interesting to see Sexton come on as a sub (a new experience for him). From what ROG has said, its a completely different ballgame being a sub, so maybe that is why he may have looked a bit out of sorts. Useful experience for him.

Edit: My team for next week:
Conway, Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Stockdale, Sexton, Murray. Healy, Cronin, Furlong, Ryan, Toner, Beirne, Leavy, Stander.  Subs: Scannell, McGrath, Porter, Henderson, POM, O'Donogue, Carbery.
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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by marty2086 on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 5:19 am

Sin é wrote:
Ireland's lineout was very good (I think 3 steals), they should have been kicking the corners a lot more as they would also have slowed the game down a bit.

That's where Carbery selection was baffling, didn't seem to have the thought to do that where as Byrne seems to see those things from what I've seen of him.

Sin é wrote:Edit: My team for next week:
Conway, Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Stockdale, Sexton, Murray. Healy, Cronin, Furlong, Ryan, Toner, Beirne, Leavy, Stander.  Subs: Scannell, McGrath, Porter, Henderson, POM, O'Donogue, Carbery.

Think it would be harsh on Herring to miss out, think he really put his hand up. Henshaw as well might be a big call given his performance, may need to start to get back up to speed but could be a risk.

Think we'll see a change at 9 too

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by Pete330v2 on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 5:31 am

"Ireland's lineout was very good (I think 3 steals), they should have been kicking the corners a lot more as they would also have slowed the game down a bit. "

A standout frustration above all the other frustrations was that very aspect. Somewhere we seemed to have dominance that wasn't being targeted. Carbery should have been the one to realize that, I know Sexton would have but with all the experience on the pitch you'd think someone could have adapted the game plan accordingly. I know it's all great experience for certain players but I'm still shocked at Joe's selection for the 1st test. Does he have the bigger picture in mind that will override a series win in Australia?

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by marty2086 on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 5:52 am

Pete sure we kept putting the ball in the air for Folau and I don't think we once put it near Koribete, we kept losing out as well yet we kept doing it

A real leadership deficiency on and off the field imo

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by Pete330v2 on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 6:03 am

marty2086 wrote:Pete sure we kept putting the ball in the air for Folau and I don't think we once put it near Koribete, we kept losing out as well yet we kept doing it

A real leadership deficiency on and off the field imo

Well that's the thing. Putting it up for Folau, one of the best fullbacks in the air in world rugby, yet kicking for the corners didn't seem to be an option. If you're being beaten in the physicality stakes, why not play the smart game and put them under pressure where you can hurt them. Ireland seemed to want to play the kind of rugby we only achieve with a few games under our belt in any series. Over confidence?
For all of that the game was winnable, these fine margins and errors will be improved upon so it's not all bad.

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by Sin é on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 1:06 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Ireland's lineout was very good (I think 3 steals), they should have been kicking the corners a lot more as they would also have slowed the game down a bit.

That's where Carbery selection was baffling, didn't seem to have the thought to do that where as Byrne seems to see those things from what I've seen of him.

Sin é wrote:Edit: My team for next week:
Conway, Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Stockdale, Sexton, Murray. Healy, Cronin, Furlong, Ryan, Toner, Beirne, Leavy, Stander.  Subs: Scannell, McGrath, Porter, Henderson, POM, O'Donogue, Carbery.

Think it would be harsh on Herring to miss out, think he really put his hand up. Henshaw as well might be a big call given his performance, may need to start to get back up to speed but could be a risk.

Think we'll see a change at 9 too

Only reason to drop Herring is to rotate. Herring was excellent. It would be interesting to see how Cronin does as a starter. I think there will be very little experimentation in the next test because if they lose that the series is lost and the last game will be irrelevant.
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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by Sin é on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 1:07 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Pete sure we kept putting the ball in the air for Folau and I don't think we once put it near Koribete, we kept losing out as well yet we kept doing it

A real leadership deficiency on and off the field imo

Well that's the thing. Putting it up for Folau, one of the best fullbacks in the air in world rugby, yet kicking for the corners didn't seem to be an option. If you're being beaten in the physicality stakes, why not play the smart game and put them under pressure where you can hurt them. Ireland seemed to want to play the kind of rugby we only achieve with a few games under our belt in any series. Over confidence?
For all of that the game was winnable, these fine margins and errors will be improved upon so it's not all bad.

I think the pace of the game might have had an effect on how they played. Joey wasn't getting any time to make decisions and the Aussies got up quickly. Joey would have needed to have retreated back to play that game.
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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by marty2086 on Mon 11 Jun 2018, 3:36 pm

Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Pete sure we kept putting the ball in the air for Folau and I don't think we once put it near Koribete, we kept losing out as well yet we kept doing it

A real leadership deficiency on and off the field imo

Well that's the thing. Putting it up for Folau, one of the best fullbacks in the air in world rugby, yet kicking for the corners didn't seem to be an option. If you're being beaten in the physicality stakes, why not play the smart game and put them under pressure where you can hurt them. Ireland seemed to want to play the kind of rugby we only achieve with a few games under our belt in any series. Over confidence?
For all of that the game was winnable, these fine margins and errors will be improved upon so it's not all bad.

I think the pace of the game might have had an effect on how they played. Joey wasn't getting any time to make decisions and the Aussies got up quickly. Joey would have needed to have retreated back to play that game.

It's not just his kicking that was a problem, to me there was an element of rabbit in the headlights to the way he played. He seemed afraid to really do anything with the ball

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by rodders on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 5:19 am

I was impressed with Carbury actually, he did well considering his lack of experience. He'll be disappointed missing a fairly straight forward place kick but didn't do much wrong.

I'd nearly like to see him at full back as he is a bit more creative at the back than Kearney.

Larmour has been disappointing, the mistakes I don't mind but he hasn't really offered much in attack at this level.

He could be doing with a try or decent break to give him a bit of confidence and show can open top defenses.
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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by Sin é on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 5:55 am

marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Pete sure we kept putting the ball in the air for Folau and I don't think we once put it near Koribete, we kept losing out as well yet we kept doing it

A real leadership deficiency on and off the field imo

Well that's the thing. Putting it up for Folau, one of the best fullbacks in the air in world rugby, yet kicking for the corners didn't seem to be an option. If you're being beaten in the physicality stakes, why not play the smart game and put them under pressure where you can hurt them. Ireland seemed to want to play the kind of rugby we only achieve with a few games under our belt in any series. Over confidence?
For all of that the game was winnable, these fine margins and errors will be improved upon so it's not all bad.

I think the pace of the game might have had an effect on how they played. Joey wasn't getting any time to make decisions and the Aussies got up quickly. Joey would have needed to have retreated back to play that game.

It's not just his kicking that was a problem, to me there was an element of rabbit in the headlights to the way he played. He seemed afraid to really do anything with the ball

I actually thought he was pretty cool throughout and didn't lose the head considering where he is coming from - starting an away test match against Tier 1 country without any big match experience as a starting 10.
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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by theslosty on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 6:01 am

Larmour has had 3 sub appearances none of which were in his favoured full back position. Disappointing? Give me strength
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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by JmD on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 6:24 am

Carbery didn't really have an impact on the game, positive or negative. He didn't threaten and opted to either shovel the ball on, or run fairly innocuously into contact. I was quite disappointed but not surprised. He has barely any experience as a 10 and shouldn't be thrown into that position starting against Australia.

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by Sin é on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 6:37 am

JmD wrote:Carbery didn't really have an impact on the game, positive or negative. He didn't threaten and opted to either shovel the ball on, or run fairly innocuously into contact. I was quite disappointed but not surprised. He has barely any experience as a 10 and shouldn't be thrown into that position starting against Australia.

And who else could they have played? Byrne? Sexton? Brought back Madigan? The reality is that he had to be tried out. Last time he played 10 was a year ago against the USA.
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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by JmD on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 6:41 am

Byrne probably would have been a better choice given that he is the man that actually plays 10 regularly at Leinster when both are available. Realistically though it would be very unlike Joe Schmidt to throw somebody into the starting team during their first time (I think?) in the squad, especially in a pivotal position.

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by Pete330v2 on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 6:54 am

As Carbery is Joe's golden child, he's the one that's going to be getting as much time at 10 as possible, Byrne will be there in the wings awaiting his big opportunity which he may not get pre RWC. I can't say I agree with using an untested outhalf in the 1st test but there's always one eye on the bigger picture where Joe's concerned. While not exactly bobbing to the top, Carbery didn't sink without a trace and that will tell Joe more than playing him in less meaningful matches.

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by The Great Aukster on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 7:34 am

JmD wrote:Carbery didn't really have an impact on the game, positive or negative. He didn't threaten and opted to either shovel the ball on, or run fairly innocuously into contact. I was quite disappointed but not surprised. He has barely any experience as a 10 and shouldn't be thrown into that position starting against Australia.

Almost sounds like, 'if he's not interfering with play, he shouldn't be on the pitch'!

Outhalf is the position that must impact the game. The scrum half usually hasn't enough time to spot opportunities (unless behind a dominant pack), and by the time the ball reaches the 12 the opposition have got organised. This is not to decry Carbery who simply hasn't enough experience at club level never mind in Tests.

The problem for Joe is that he doesn't have a realistic alternative. When the Bank of Ireland decided Jackson had to go, Schmidt was left choosing between a rock and a hard place. Carbery has undoubted flair that will only be released with confidence and that will only come through experience. Ross Byrne has no Test experience so is completely unproven, and Keatley while experienced looks increasingly like a beaten docket in Schmidt's and van Graan's eyes. While Sexton will undoubtedly start the next test, Carbery may get at least half an hour at the end to give Joe more confidence never mind Joey.

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by Sin é on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 11:06 am

The Great Aukster wrote:
JmD wrote:Carbery didn't really have an impact on the game, positive or negative. He didn't threaten and opted to either shovel the ball on, or run fairly innocuously into contact. I was quite disappointed but not surprised. He has barely any experience as a 10 and shouldn't be thrown into that position starting against Australia.

Almost sounds like, 'if he's not interfering with play, he shouldn't be on the pitch'!

Outhalf is the position that must impact the game. The scrum half usually hasn't enough time to spot opportunities (unless behind a dominant pack), and by the time the ball reaches the 12 the opposition have got organised. This is not to decry Carbery who simply hasn't enough experience at club level never mind in Tests.

The problem for Joe is that he doesn't have a realistic alternative. When the Bank of Ireland decided Jackson had to go, Schmidt was left choosing between a rock and a hard place. Carbery has undoubted flair that will only be released with confidence and that will only come through experience. Ross Byrne has no Test experience so is completely unproven, and Keatley while experienced looks increasingly like a beaten docket in Schmidt's and van Graan's eyes. While Sexton will undoubtedly start the next test, Carbery may get at least half an hour at the end to give Joe more confidence never mind Joey.

And you think the Bank of Ireland just did that because they wanted to annoy Paddy Jackson and Ulster? Nothing to do with opinion polls which said that 70% of the people polled thought the IRFU had done the right thing getting rid of the players?

Madigan will be starting 10 in Premiership for Bristol next season, so he will become an option if Ireland is stuck. If Tyler Bleyendaal gets fit, he too will be an option, so I don't think Joe is completely out of options for a back-up 10.

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by JmD on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 11:25 am

Sin, you, me and everybody here knows they weren't let go because of opinion polls, but that's neither here nor there in terms of this thread so let's not.

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by Sin é on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 11:29 am

JmD wrote:Sin, you, me and everybody here knows they weren't let go because of opinion polls, but that's neither here nor there in terms of this thread so let's not.

Of course they were let go because a lot of people thought their behaviour was unacceptable and they were unfit to be representative of the people of Ireland. Check out what happened to those lads in both GAA and Soccer who tweeted support for the two lads.

I'm not the one that keeps bringing up Jackson. He has moved on as should the Ulster supporters.
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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 2:26 pm

Ireland fans - what's going on with yer under 20s??

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by The Great Aukster on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 3:44 pm

Sin é wrote:
JmD wrote:Sin, you, me and everybody here knows they weren't let go because of opinion polls, but that's neither here nor there in terms of this thread so let's not.

Of course they were let go because a lot of people thought their behaviour was unacceptable and they were unfit to be representative of the people of Ireland. Check out what happened to those lads in both GAA and Soccer who tweeted support for the two lads.

I'm not the one that keeps bringing up Jackson. He has moved on as should the Ulster supporters.

Bringing up Jackson is just as relevant to Ireland as Ulster. He was the heir apparent to Sexton, started all three tests on Ireland's last SH tour and he was undoubtedly the player that Schmidt was investing in as cover for Sexton. When the IRFU binned Paddy, Schmidt was suddenly left with promising youngsters and inconsistent wannabees. Joe simply hasn't the time left to waste on experiments, so he has made his choice and plumped for Carbery - hence the 'arranged marriage' to play outside Murray at club level. This will potentially hurt Munster in the short term and may still not be enough to make Carbery Test class in the time frame, but Joe has little alternative. Continually drafting in rookies and dropouts who failed their previous exams would smack of panic.

Hopefully Sexton will stay in rude health, and the IRFU will not regret spoiling the ship for a ha'p'orth of tar.

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by The Great Aukster on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 3:45 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Ireland fans - what's going on with yer under 20s??

They're rubbish?

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by Engine#4 on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 3:49 pm

On the subject of Jackson. His first(?) start against Samoa he played so deep he was in danger of getting the bends when he approached the gainline. An inexperienced ten is likely to be pretty cautious against a blitz defence.

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by RDW_Scotland on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 3:54 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Ireland fans - what's going on with yer under 20s??

They're rubbish?
Bit of a surprise given how strong Irish rugby is just now. Is this just a weak batch or a sign of problems in the academy?

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 12 Jun 2018, 11:04 pm

Tends to go in cycles. Wales U20 are crap right now too, and we don’t help ourselves by getting them coaches that are well below the standard required.

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by Pete330v2 on Wed 13 Jun 2018, 3:25 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:Ireland fans - what's going on with yer under 20s??

They're rubbish?
Bit of a surprise given how strong Irish rugby is just now. Is this just a weak batch or a sign of problems in the academy?

After watching the French and South African sides last night I'm not that surprised the Irish side were beaten by the in the pool stages and only just beaten where the French are concerned. That French pack simply blew the NZ lads away and considering these players are on the cusp of becoming senior players it's a frightening prospect for the future 6 nations. I didn't see the Georgia and Scotland games but I know there was a bit of tinkering in the backs for the Scotland match that obviously didn't work.
It's difficult to gauge whether the U20 competition can be used as a barometer for the future of any national side but certainly in Ireland's case we know that group of players can be a whole lot better than what we've seen over recent weeks. To be beaten by the French and SA outfits is nothing to be ashamed or worried about, they are very good outfits. To fall to Georgia is a different matter and Scotland, well that's the kind of relationship we have with Scotland even in the senior side all be it the results tend to be much tighter.
Perhaps the Irish coaching at U20 needs a shake up.
Perhaps they allowed Eddie O'Sullivan to book the hotel for the trip Smile

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by rodders on Wed 13 Jun 2018, 4:57 am

Liking what I'm hearing from Andy Farrell. He's definitely added a harder edge to the mindset and seems a good foil for Schmidt.

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by The Great Aukster on Wed 13 Jun 2018, 5:48 am

RDW - they're not really rubbish!

Plenty of these players will make it through to the professional ranks, mainly in the forwards. They have competed with the massive packs of France, South Africa and Georgia, and produced plenty of possession for the backs to unfortunately squander.

Hugh O'Sullivan and Harry Byrne both look promising at times but neither are seeing the big picture around them. That may be a coaching issue but this team is remarkable for the number of chances they've butchered alongside disallowed tries. The midfield has never had a settled partnership, which might be a consequence of flakey direction at half back, but that flux hurt the side defensively. Similarly the back three has been chopped and changed looking for a solution to a problem that probably lay with the decision makers behind the scrum.

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by Pete330v2 on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 1:19 am

Ireland team to face Australia:
Rob Kearney; Andrew Conway, Garry Ringrose, Robbie Henshaw, Keith Earls; Jonny Sexton, Conor Murray; Cian Healy, Niall Scannell, Tadhg Furlong; James Ryan, Devin Toner; Peter O'Mahony (capt), Dan Leavy, CJ Stander.

Replacements:
Rob Herring, Jack McGrath, Andrew Porter, Tadhg Beirne, Jordi Murphy, John Cooney, Joey Carbery, Jordan Larmour

Australia team v Ireland:
Israel Folau; Dane Haylett-Petty, Samu Kerevi, Kurtley Beale, Marika Koroibete; Bernard Foley, Will Genia; Scott Sio, Brandon Paenga-Amosa, Sekope Kepu, Izack Rodda, Adam Coleman; David Pocock, Michael Hooper (captain), Caleb Timu.
Replacements:
Tolu Latu, Tom Robertson, Taniela Tupou, Rob Simmons, Lukhan Tui, Pete Samu, Nick Phipps, Reece Hodge

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 1:57 am

So Stockdale rested? Cronin not liked by Joe (according to Luke Fitz).
Do we think this was always the plan to rotate and give all players game time

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by carpet baboon on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 1:58 am

But good to see cooney on the bench. Hope he gets more than ten mins mind.
Also would like to see beirne get at least 30

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by marty2086 on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 3:22 am

Stockdale injured but Im a little shocked Earls makes it after failing a HIA, should have at out this week and rested him

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by Pete330v2 on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 3:34 am

As much as I love to see Stockdale playing I can't wait to see Conway tearing things up. He's a hugely talented player and I'm glad he's getting the game time. The Ringshaw midfield will definitely be a much more potent threat than last week, Aki and Henshaw misfired badly last week. I'm confident that we can make it 1-1 in the series but only if we can negate Falou and Beale to a better extent that Saturday.

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by rodders on Thu 14 Jun 2018, 4:19 am

carpet baboon wrote:So Stockdale rested? Cronin not liked by Joe (according to Luke Fitz).
Do we think this was always the plan to rotate and give all players game time

Joe eluded that they had a plan in terms of rotation. I would say a lot of changes could be attributed to this.

Some of it looks tactical though, Earls shifting to the opposite wing to accommodate Conway. I would say they think that will help with the arial battle, although Stockdale probably needs a rest.

It's a fairly underwhelming looking bench but glad to see Cooney and Beirne get a chance.

I'd say Beirne and Murphy will replace Ryan and O'Mahoney around 65min.
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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by Brendan on Fri 15 Jun 2018, 2:02 am

If everyone gets a start and sub appearance it will give us a good view of the player.  I hate when coaches take 30 people and some only get 10 mins in the whole tour.

People who have started both test may be rested the last week.

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by rodders on Fri 15 Jun 2018, 7:52 am

Have to say not that confident based on last week. I expect the Wallabies to be stronger this week and I'm not sure how much we have left in the tank.

Hope I'm wrong but not sure we can match the wallabies at the breakdown and meet the physical challenge on last weeks evidence.

I expect a better scrum though and hopefully better execution in the Wallabies half, hopefully score a couple of tries but not sure that will be enough.
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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by marty2086 on Fri 15 Jun 2018, 7:59 am

I'm a bit more confident, the only ones Im worried about are Scannell and Earls. Given how well the lineout went last week I'd have thought Herring would get the start and we use that as a platform, especially with Sexton coming back in I expect Ireland to kick a fair bit and turn the Aussies and slow down the line speed that really hurt Ireland last week

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by Pete330v2 on Fri 15 Jun 2018, 8:20 am

You have to imagine Joe will be targeting the Ozzie lineout this week so Johnny better bring his best kicking boots. Territory will be the buzzword of the day with Sexton booting us into the Ozzie half a hell of a lot more than Carbery did last week. I think our scrum will contend a lot better but it's at the breakdown there might be a few green shirts left wanting. I hope not, I hope there's plenty left in the tank but I wouldn't place a lot of money on it.
I do think the outcome will leave the series 1-1 mind you. Irish errors were very costly last week as well as that CJ try that never was but one of those areas will easily be improved on, one of them will come down to a little extra luck.

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by eirebilly on Sat 16 Jun 2018, 4:43 am

I am actually quietly confident ahead of todays game. I think Ireland will not make as many errors as they did last week and will be a lot more clinical.
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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by profitius on Sat 16 Jun 2018, 5:00 am

eirebilly wrote:I am actually quietly confident ahead of todays game. I think Ireland will not make as many errors as they did last week and will be a lot more clinical.


Same here. I wasn't confident last week but I am confident this week of a win.

Aus might be better too so it should be interesting for the neutral.
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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by eirebilly on Sat 16 Jun 2018, 5:09 am

Well that hammers my confidence...
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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by ebop on Sat 16 Jun 2018, 5:10 am

Fantastic try that
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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by RDW_Scotland on Sat 16 Jun 2018, 5:16 am

That's a yellow - deliberate lift above the horizontal. 

Only thing that stopped a red is not landing on his head.

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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

Post by eirebilly on Sat 16 Jun 2018, 5:24 am

Ireland really upping the gears now and putting the Aussies under massive pressure.
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Re: Ireland Winning Tours of Australia 1967, 1979 AND 2018

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