New Zealand v England Test Series

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New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by Duty281 on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 1:22 am

First topic message reminder :

The first test of a largely ignored series has started.

England 6/1 at the moment. Would you believe Alastair Cook is out nicking to slip? You would? Quite...

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 12:55 pm

I thought I’d banned Franklin? He’s a nuisance poster, always trolling

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 1:11 pm

Polymaths always find a way to get through.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by KP_fan on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 7:38 pm

--Rarely would you see the last wicket more than double up the innings score as it happened today

--Rarely would you see a side looking like breaking the dubious record of lowest test total as Eng looked like doing so
--Rarely would you see a batsman score more than half the runs and extremely rare coming from a No.9

--There was probably seam movement that opening bowlers exploited well...... although not as clearly visible because of the top/ perspective view of the telecast at-least in the highlights package...
It was at least a 150 pitch
Eng batsmen were so leaden-footed...coming from a vacation and mentally not here

--and Williamson was brilliant as a captain to have not even tried a 3rd bowler even when Overton was slogging around ......to win the psychological advantage "Bowled Eng's test match side out with just two bowlers"

--and later even with the benefit of bowling under lights...in "their" type of conditions... Eng couldn't restrict NZ to 150....and give themselves an outside chance....they weren't mentally there I felt.
why wasn't Stokes bowling?

--I don't see how Eng can come back from this situation in this test...would be hard in the series too
And after the walloping in Aus...... Eng were expected to be favorites against NZ....sadly the brunt of the consequence will be borne by Root as a captain
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 7:48 pm

Think Root is going to be protected from the furore by criticism being aimed at Bayliss.

It must be noted that there’s just a whole psychological whirlwind in collapse. An innings can just seem out of control, and there’s too many players in there who are insecure, thus pressure was doubling, tripling etc on them.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by KP_fan on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 7:50 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Think Root is going to be protected from the furore by criticism being aimed at Bayliss.

I think you are spot-on there
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by JDizzle on Thu 22 Mar 2018, 8:57 pm

England's numbers 3-7 scored 2 runs between them - the lowest ever in men's international cricket, in 14622 innings when nos 3-7 have all batted.
Previous record: 4 (Neth v Ind, 2003 World Cup; NZ v SL, 2014 World T20).
Previous worst in Tests: 5 (Aus v SA, Cape Town, 2011-12).

@ZaltzCricket

That is excellent work from the middle order!

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by Duty281 on Fri 23 Mar 2018, 1:37 am

Williamson has his ton. A record breaking Kiwi ton. 

New Zealand set to hit the 150 lead mark soon. Weather looks absolutely fine for days four and five so, barring some Brisbane 2010 batting from England, it's only a matter of time.

Short turnaround for the second test, as well.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 23 Mar 2018, 6:51 am

From what I can see based on the forecast it’s meant to rain for pretty much the next day - so may not see much, if any play tomorrow either. Sunday looks patchy
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by guildfordbat on Fri 23 Mar 2018, 2:08 pm

KP_fan wrote:--Rarely would you see the last wicket more than double up the innings score as it happened today

--Rarely would you see a side looking like breaking the dubious record of lowest test total as Eng looked like doing so
--Rarely would you see a batsman score more than half the runs and extremely rare coming from a No.9

--There was probably seam movement that opening bowlers exploited well...... although not as clearly visible because of the top/ perspective view of the telecast at-least in the highlights package...
It was at least a 150 pitch
Eng batsmen were so leaden-footed...coming from a vacation and mentally not here

--and Williamson was brilliant as a captain to have not even tried a 3rd bowler even when Overton was slogging around ......to win the psychological advantage "Bowled Eng's test match side out with just two bowlers"

--and later even with the benefit of bowling under lights...in "their" type of conditions... Eng couldn't restrict NZ to 150....and give themselves an outside chance....they weren't mentally there I felt.
why wasn't Stokes bowling?

--I don't see how Eng can come back from this situation in this test...would be hard in the series too
And after the walloping in Aus...... Eng were expected to be favorites against NZ....sadly the brunt of the consequence will be borne by Root as a captain

I've seen very little of this Test (a bit like England's batsmen Wink ) but certainly some good points there, KP_f.

I too particularly liked Williamson's approach in sticking with Boult and Southee. You don't get tired when you're on top and taking wickets, eh Alfie? Smile

Unless rain ruins things, the Test is won by New Zealand - or more pertinently, lost by England. 58 all out on the first morning saw to that. As said by KP_f and Alfie, definitely leaden footed batting from the brief highlights I've seen.

Bayliss was remarkably feeble in interview yesterday but, as Dolph astutely posted, he is at least diverting the flak from Root.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 24 Mar 2018, 6:22 am

Well another day rained out, and England suddenly have a glimmer of hope. If you’re NZ do you declare now, or do you try to bat most of day four and hope to bowl England out on day five?
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by KP_fan on Sat 24 Mar 2018, 6:51 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Well another day rained out, and England suddenly have a glimmer of hope. If you’re NZ do you declare now, or do you try to bat most of day four and hope to bowl England out on day five?

I would declare now,
because they have a 2nd inning to knock off the few runs should the test match go so far
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 24 Mar 2018, 7:06 am

KP_fan wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Well another day rained out, and England suddenly have a glimmer of hope. If you’re NZ do you declare now, or do you try to bat most of day four and hope to bowl England out on day five?

I would declare now,
because they have a 2nd inning to knock off the few runs should the test match go so far

I agree KPF - give yourselves enough time to get all those england wickets, and in a worst case scenario if England get a lead of say 120-150, you can knock that off
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by guildfordbat on Sat 24 Mar 2018, 7:23 am

According to cricinfo the forecast for day 4 is ''a lot, lot better''. With that and assuming play starts on time (actually an early start once more), I would bat on. Maybe for around 50 minutes. Try and rack up 40 or 50 more.

If Williamson declared now and England scored 300 second dig (impossible if they bat as they did on the first morning but feasible if they use footwork and gumption), that would leave New Zealand with a potentially awkward total of 125 some time on the last day - the hosts don't really want that.

Not declaring now also gives Cook and Stoneman less time to prepare, leaving them out in the field wondering and waiting.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by Duty281 on Sat 24 Mar 2018, 9:53 am

Looks unlikely there’ll be any further rain, so we should get full play on days four and five, meaning there’s still 196 overs in the test.

Realistically, England won’t be as awful second time around, but the Kiwis still won’t need any more than 90 overs to dismiss England again.

So bat on.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by guildfordbat on Sat 24 Mar 2018, 10:09 am

I would just add that even if Williamson does declare now (even though I wouldn't as per my earlier post), I wouldn't view it as a wrong decision. There are good and understandable reasons for choosing either way and he and the New Zealand team have earned that choice.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by jimbohammers on Sat 24 Mar 2018, 10:49 am

I would go out and slog for an hour, try get an extra 75/100. Maybe push De Grandhomme up the order. Then declare

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by guildfordbat on Sat 24 Mar 2018, 2:26 pm

alfie wrote:
Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:I think it's time we bite the bullet and introduce some youngsters from county cricket and give them an extended run. Hameed should be opening. Cook has played 156 Tests and it's plainly clear he's in decline. We can't have a senior player being so hot and cold.

Moeen Ali's Test career should also be coming to a close. It worked for a while. Slap a few runs at 8 and some average bowling. But he's been found out.

We need to determine what's an all rounder and what's a bits and pieces cricketer. Only Stokes is a true all rounder. Moeen, Woakes etc are not all rounders.

Easy to say "bring in some young players" ...harder to find some good enough. They have tried a few.  Also easier to drop players than replace them.

I'd like to see Hameed opening (though with Cook , for now , rather than in place of) : and had he not been injured I fancy he might be. Truth is though he's hardly made a run at any level since recovering and throwing him back in right now would be a huge leap of faith. I'm hopeful he will start the summer well and take his place in the team.

Moeen most certainly is an all rounder. The question is actually whether he is good enough. On recent form , no. But he was starring a few months back ...

I don't pick teams in the middle of Test Matches anyway.  But yes , there will be a lot of discussion after this tour .  The coaching might get some attention too.

Hameed is currently with Lancs for some pre-season games in Dubai. In their one dayers against UAE Blues and Surrey last week, he respectively made an undefeated 85 and a 37. Still early days and he'll clearly have tougher fixtures but encouraging nonetheless.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 12:52 am

New Zealand batting on with both Nicholls and Watling looking pretty comfortable so far.

Suggestions by some of the Sky guys that they could bat to lunch. I feel that would be unnecessarily long but they could be right ....

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by Duty281 on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 3:13 am

New Zealand's lead cruises past 250.

Proper, long drawn-out humiliation for England. There is no escape from here. No rain on the horizon. Could be all over today.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 6:29 am

Well New Zealand batted long, which gives England the slightest of glimmers - they need to bat 150 odd overs, which is extremely unlikely, but if they do they could just about save this game. Albeit with Cook already gone, it does seem like a matter of when, not if
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 8:13 am

Oh Stoneman you plonker - did all the hard work!
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by alfie on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 8:14 am

NZ batted very long , indeed. Big lead so they've clearly figured to stake everything on putting England totally out of the game and backing themselves to bowl them out in the last four sessions. Which given this England team's poor record in playing for a draw is probably a reasonable choice.
Only thing is this pitch is playing pretty well and if they don't make major inroads in this session under lights they might find it heavy going tomorrow.

As I type Stoneman goes to his fifty with a flick over the fine leg boundary ... and then throws it away trying to repeat the trick picard As if to underline my comment re "batting for the draw"

Root needs to make a big one...

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by alfie on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 8:21 am

Your man Wagner did the trick there , Olly.

Had a bit of help from the batsman , mind. Stoneman often looks good ; but he is yet to show he can put in the kind of innings you want from a Test Match opener. This was a great opportunity to build on his start and play the long innings his team needed...but he just couldn't resist the bait.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by JDizzle on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 8:21 am

That crack on the head Stoneman got in Perth has really put something in his mind. Needs to work out how to get over it or he will continue to get peppered.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 8:24 am

Stoneman's dismissal did seem lame-brained. However, at least he went down trying to be pro-active and positive whereas the whole team were definitely not that is the first innings. Sure it was a bit of a giveaway but a far better way to play and exit today than Cook.
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by alfie on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 9:19 am

I don't mind Stoneman being positive...indeed I think England are approaching this task quite sensibly in looking to score whenever they can. They've a better chance of getting out of this by making 450 - by which time there probably wouldn't be much time left for NZ to bat again - than just stonewalling.
But there's a difference between being positive and being reckless ; and with the obvious trap set for him I reckon Stoneman was guilty of the latter.
As JD says , he does seem to get a bit mentally scrambled when they work him over with the short stuff.

I'm not giving up on him , mind. Not yet . But he needs to go on with an innings soon : he certainly demonstrates he has the mindset to do so in the county game ( obviously easier ! But you'd think once he's done the hard work and got to fifty he'd be able to bring the same concentration to this level.)

Root to fifty...well played but he needs to go on to a big one. Only a few overs left in the day but there's a full day tomorrow...

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 9:23 am

alfie wrote:I don't mind Stoneman being positive...indeed I think England are approaching this task quite sensibly in looking to score whenever they can. They've a better chance of getting out of this by making 450 - by which time there probably wouldn't be much time left for NZ to bat again - than just stonewalling.
But there's a difference between being positive and being reckless ; and with the obvious trap set for him I reckon Stoneman was guilty of the latter.
As JD says , he does seem to get a bit mentally scrambled when they work him over with the short stuff.

I'm not giving up on him , mind. Not yet .  But he needs to go on with an innings soon : he certainly demonstrates he has the mindset to do so in the county game ( obviously easier ! But you'd think once he's done the hard work and got to fifty he'd be able to bring the same concentration to this level.)

Root to fifty...well played but he needs to go on to a big one.  Only a few overs left in the day but there's a full day tomorrow...

I just think he got carried away. He had hit a four quickly followed by a six to get to his 50 and maybe felt was on a roll as a ball or two later he went after another one and connected but holed out. Over-confident or wrong shot at the wrong time with a trap set I reckon.
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by alfie on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 9:28 am

Wagner now trying to get Malan in the same way...

Malan did in fact fall for that trick once or twice in the Ashes series I seem to recall. Likes the hook ; but he's kept the first one down all right...

Last over ? But oh dear that's a nasty blow to Joe Root's fingers ! Not what England need Sad

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 9:29 am

Root on 51 not out as the day's play draws to a close wears a short ball on his hand and kooks in trouble. Physio out straight away looking at Root's right index finger.
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 9:31 am

Root will carry on and has two balls to survive until close.
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 9:32 am

And Root feathers a short Boult delivery down the leg-side to the keeper and is caught behind and is out. England close on 132 for 3. Massive wicket that.


Last edited by CaledonianCraig on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 9:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 9:32 am

Phwoar what a delivery and spell from Boult
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by alfie on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 9:35 am

And then he gloves the next ball down the leg side and NZ get their big wicket to finish the day on a high !

Those last two balls have swung things a long way towards an NZ win : at 132/2 I thought England were looking a fair chance to get out of this after all ...but the loss of the skipper has left them with a huge task.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 1:34 pm

I only saw the opening overs on day 4 - nothing to get too excited about there - and wasn't up in time to see any more play. Highlights to come for me. Just going from the scoreboard, I feel we've lost at least one wicket too many, probably two, to escape with an undeserved draw.

If defeat is somehow to be avoided, we are most probably going to need some more help from the weather. Even with a decent forecast, there's always a slight chance of rain in Auckland - I spent last month in New Zealand and so now consider myself a leading expert on all aspects of the country. Wink Anyway, Auckland is amazingly hilly which makes weather forecasting for that area uncertain - an old joke there: If you don't like Auckland weather, wait 15 minutes! Smile

Stoneman's situation is a strange one to fathom. I saw him quite a bit last season in the 4 day county game. What really impressed me was his ability during the same innings to read the bowling and switch as required at different times between sensible aggression and careful defence. This enabled him to properly go on and make some big scores. He just doesn't seem capable of doing that at the highest level, either falling cheaply or failing to go beyond 50. Although his latest score will buy him a stay of execution, it's incredibly frustrating and he will feel that most of all.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by Duty281 on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 6:56 pm

I suppose you could say England are hanging in, but Root's dismissal from the final ball of the day has scuppered any remote hopes. It looks like there will be no rain, and England will need to bat out at least 90 overs tomorrow. Something which they are unlikely to do.

The first hour will, as ever, be a difficult one. But even if England fight their way, gallantly, through that spell, New Zealand will be in possession of a new ball at some point in the afternoon.

If you haven't already, help yourself to the 1/3 on New Zealand winning this test.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by KP_fan on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 7:03 pm

will they not try to squeeze in 100 overs tomm to make up for rain losses
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 25 Mar 2018, 7:54 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

However, a lot of people are right to say that who is getting results abroad?

There again though a fair few sides are a lot more competitive away from home. The much maligned Windies pushed England close last summer. India were very competitive recently in South Africa as are Aus....oh lets not go there.
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 26 Mar 2018, 12:46 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Think Root is going to be protected from the furore by criticism being aimed at Bayliss.

It must be noted that there’s just a whole psychological whirlwind in collapse. An innings can just seem out of control, and there’s too many players in there who are insecure, thus pressure was doubling, tripling etc on them.

Recently watched the day 4 highlights. Noticed that Woakes was denied a wicket caught behind as it wasn't given and we had no reviews left. By then any chance of it really influencing the match had gone but it was still irritating that Root had wasted the reviews on nothing more than hopeful punts.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 26 Mar 2018, 12:52 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Swann was going bananas over anyone attacking Bayliss. Kept saying it was all the players’ fault, but they are coached and managed by someone and they’re not getting results.

However, a lot of people are right to say that who is getting results abroad?

Just picked up on this day 1 post from Dolph. Away tests are clearly tricky for all teams but, taking nothing away from Boult and Southee on the first morning, our batsmen should have experience of the swinging ball given how much Championship cricket is played in April and September.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 26 Mar 2018, 1:04 am

Root's dismissal and the significance of it has rightly been highlighted along with Boult's bowling in the final over on day 4. Just to add that it was an excellent catch by Watling - fast, deflected further leg side and rising. Very capably taken without fuss, top quality keeping.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by Duty281 on Mon 26 Mar 2018, 1:48 am

And there's the first.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by alfie on Mon 26 Mar 2018, 1:56 am

guildfordbat wrote:Root's dismissal and the significance of it has rightly been highlighted along with Boult's bowling in the final over on day 4. Just to add that it was an excellent catch by Watling - fast, deflected further leg side and rising. Very capably taken without fuss, top quality keeping.

Too true...in fact you'd have to say that NZ have done pretty well everything right in this match. In contrast to the tourists who have got most things wrong !

Which is why I am not going to join the "sack 'em all" mob just yet. Sometimes it does happen that way and doesn't necessarily mean the losing team are complete rubbish. Even assuming they can't bat out the last day England will have a chance to come back in the second match - and I'd be hoping for a big improvement !

Not to deny there are serious weaknesses in the team ; generally exposed most overseas , but - as you said above - it is surprising they folded in such "English" conditions on day one here. I don't have any easy fixes other than to say they still need a couple of solid top four bats , another wicket taking pace man (sadly Woakes has somehow lost his way with the red ball since his excellent home 2016 : I wonder why ? Coaching ? Focus on white ball game ?) and a spinner who can perform other than when "finishing the job" after a big batting effort and/or early carnage by the pace men... More after the tour concludes.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by Duty281 on Mon 26 Mar 2018, 4:09 am

Six down at lunch. Which should mean all over by the end of the second session. Stokes is doing a decent job, but he’s getting no support.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by alfie on Mon 26 Mar 2018, 5:18 am

I see (from text only as I'm at work) that Williamson has continued his excellent match ; not only catching birds at gully and making runs for fun but even calling a brilliant review to see Moeen on his way on the stroke of tea...the man can't do anything wrong !
One or two too many wickets lost in that afternoon session so as Duty says this looks lost. Annoying that Bairstow apparently threw his away rather carelessly... (White ball mentality ? Sorry to harp , but...)

Stokes seems to be playing an innings. And Woakes surviving - so far. Half way through the day - and still 116 runs behind. At the current rate they'll need nearly all the remaining 48 overs to get past so that's the simple equation : bat all day. Can't see it.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 26 Mar 2018, 6:24 am

Stokes looked to really be struggling with his back for the past twenty minutes, can’t get out of the way of a Wagner short one and is gone. I don’t think he’d have survived much longer post dinner anyways (and not a good sign for him being able to bowl next test either)
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by alfie on Mon 26 Mar 2018, 6:24 am

..And once again England lose a - vital - wicket right on the stroke of an interval Sad

Top effort from Stokes but I think that is it unless Overton and Woakes can work a miracle...still 69 behind.

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 26 Mar 2018, 6:25 am

Stokes concentration goes on the stroke of tea or dinner or whateber it is called and is caught in the deep. He exits for 66 and England are 300 for 7. They are still around 65 runs adrift with just the tail-enders left to support Woakes.
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by alfie on Mon 26 Mar 2018, 6:27 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Stokes looked to really be struggling with his back for the past twenty minutes, can’t get out of the way of a Wagner short one and is gone. I don’t think he’d have survived much longer post dinner anyways (and not a good sign for him being able to bowl next test either)

That's a worry , Olly. They need him adding some fizz to the attack. And if they are looking at Leach for Moeen it will be a leap to weaken the batting further with Wood so not sure where else it is coming from...

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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 26 Mar 2018, 7:42 am

Stuart Broad batting to save a test is the best type of cricket. Closely followed by Neil Wagner bowling of course
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 26 Mar 2018, 7:53 am

Woakes bounced out by Wagner. One wicket left to get to give New Zealand a highly-deserved win. To be honest if England had of got a draw here it would have been very lucky given so much of the play was washed out. Thet batted in the second innings like they should have batted in the second innings and things would have been a lot different. England 320 for 9.
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Re: New Zealand v England Test Series

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