New Centrist Party is coming....Interested ??

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 27 Mar 2018, 7:03 pm

Clegg...I'm not a Liberal and that is it...I am open to new ideas

Blair.....Liberals have a branding problem..The Country needs a Centrist Party to fight Brexit..

Centrist Labour mps...The leader is an anti Semite because of one line on FB..

Owen Smith....Corbyn has sacked me for breaking with Party Policy right before an Election (Strange time to write an anti Labour article or maybe not) The members want to stay in EU.

Jeremy Corbyn wins any Labour Leadership Election.


Clear as night follows day a new Party is coming !!

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Post by MrInvisible on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 12:49 pm

I'm not sure about this - if pro-remain Labour and Tory MPs (you've not mentioned the likes of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan) are unhappy with their party's stance on Brexit surely joining the Lib Dems is a more logical step rather than having to create a brand new party? Blair and Clegg will no doubt continue to be listened to as influencial anti-Brexit voices but I can't see either making a return to frontline politics.

How Brexit and the transitional arrangement pans out is likely to influence from where along the political spectrum a new political party, if any emerges.

My own take is that hard Brexit is looking increasingly unlikely now and that as a result a new protest party on the right vacating the space left by the collapsing UKIP with a few Tory MP hardliners is a more likely prospect than a NewLabourv2 or One Nation Tory lite centrist party.

Forming a new party in the 1st past the post system is tricky, but stranger things have happened...

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Post by Hero on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 1:02 pm

I can't see many joining the Libs in the current climate, whilst they stand still against Brexit they're a lame duck in regards to politics with such a tarnished image from their poisoned chalice coalition.
I voted for Libs for 20 years and even I've given up on them.

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 12:53 am

Hero wrote:I voted for Libs for 20 years and even I've given up on them.

Nick Clegg's lasting legacy is the destruction of the Liberal Democrat party.

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Post by Dave. on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 10:04 am

Hero, if I remember you are one of the rare people who went LD 2010, Tory 2015 and Labour 2017?

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 07 Apr 2018, 9:06 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/07/new-political-party-break-mould-westminster-uk-brexit

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Post by Hero on Sat 07 Apr 2018, 9:37 pm

Dave. wrote:Hero, if I remember you are one of the rare people who went LD 2010, Tory 2015 and Labour 2017?

I voted Tory when Major lost to Blair in 96 and then Lib Dem ever since until the last election.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 08 Apr 2018, 8:32 am

I cannot see it happening. What would be the point? If it were to have happened it should have been formed a couple of years ago at the start of the Brexit campaign. They have missed the boat now. I mean what will their goals be once Brexit deals have been signed and sealed? Will they champion the cause and make it their chief pledge to take the UK back into Europe? What will their stance be on other policies such as NHS, privatisation, crime prevention, the economy etc etc?

I just don't see it as being long-term viable party unless they expand on what their reason for being are.
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Post by No name Bertie on Sun 08 Apr 2018, 9:41 am

I think the next election will see a Labour - SNP coalition in power.  I think Labour will win a small majority - most of the younger generation will vote for Labour, but I think there is enough of a doubt over them to prevent them winning an overall majority.

Nick Clegg killed the Liberal Democrats - as soon as he got a share of power he not only ditched his manifesto pledges he did the exact opposite - he lied to the people that voted for his party, stabbed them in the back and turned the handle.  The Lib Dems went from 57 seats and 23% of the vote in 2010 to 8 seats and 7.9% of the vote in 2015.  He turned out to be the worst Lib Dem leader in history - and shown to be deceitful and lacking in integrity.

The proposed new party sounds like a revamp of Blair's New Labour.  Any new party with Clegg in it will not get off the ground.  He has been shown to be a political chancer, a charlatan, a fraud.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 08 Apr 2018, 4:31 pm

I think Clegg is an egotistical hypocrite but to suggest a guy that had the Liberals in power albeit as a junior partner is the worst leader ever sounds harsh..

What about Farron ??......Austerity....May.. Corbyn..Brexit and still 8%..

At least Clegg managed 50 seats in 2010.

Non entity the last guy.

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Post by No name Bertie on Sun 08 Apr 2018, 11:27 pm

In my view, to judge a leader one needs to assess the state of the party before and after they take control.  

Nick Clegg took a party that had won 62 seats with 22% of the vote (2005 general election under Charles Kennedy) and left it with 8 seats and 7.9% of the vote (2015 general election).  The majority of Lib Dem voters felt cheated, humiliated, stabbed in the back and many will never vote for Lib Dem again.  Nick Clegg not only destroyed the Lib Dem party he left a long term negative legacy.  

The Labour party, and especially Jeremy Corbyn, has benefited enormously from the collapse of the Lib Dem vote amongst the younger generation.  This younger generation even helped Jeremy Corbyn win the Labour Leadership election through their support of him via the public membership vote (paying the £3 fee to become a member to participate in the vote).

The proposed new centrist party is merely an attempt to recreate the Liberal Democratic Party but without the tarnish of the Nick Clegg 2010 Coalition legacy.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 09 Apr 2018, 8:44 am

Excellent response Bertie..

I just thought the last guy before Cable was a non entity which is certainly nothing that can be said about Clegg.

BUT your case is certainly compelling...


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Post by MrInvisible on Mon 09 Apr 2018, 10:51 am

Interesting discussion regarding Clegg and Lib Dems. On the one hand, there are many examples of a junior party in coalition taking a hit with the voters (e.g. Labour in Republic of Ireland, or FDP in Germany) subsequently and I would argue that there was always going to be a risk of that once the Lib Dems went into coalition. However, Clegg's behaviour post 2010 election was unreasonable (insisting that Labour ditch Brown) and I do believe that if the Lib Dems hadn't crossed red lines on tuition fees and NHS, they would probably still have 20-30 MPs rather than the near collapse they had.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 09 Apr 2018, 1:41 pm

Can't argue with that..

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 03 Feb 2019, 12:21 am

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/02/rebel-labour-mps-set-to-quit-party-and-form-centre-group

Are we ready?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:22 am

Be a godsend for Corbyn who I don't think wants to be PM.

Absolute Control of the Labour Party when 50,000 right wing members and some trouble making mps leave to start it.

Corbyn wants to change Labour for good....Downing Street would be a bonus..

Though this Govt is so crap that his chances of winning a GE are 50/50.

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Post by Samo on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 1:05 pm

Corbyns hardcore support have done a brilliant job alienating the centre ground while forgetting that without wooing floating voters they’ll never win another election. Why vote Labour when you just get mouthfuls of abuse because you dared to criticise dear leader?

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 1:18 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Be a godsend for Corbyn who I don't think wants to be PM.

Absolute Control of the Labour Party when 50,000 right wing members and some trouble making mps leave to start it.

Corbyn wants to change Labour for good....Downing Street would be a bonus..

Though this Govt is so crap that his chances of winning a GE are 50/50.
Would be interesting if that’s what he genuinely wants. He’d make Labour unelectable for decades.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 1:27 pm

Won seats last time and got the biggest rise in vote share since 1945...

He is also favourite with the oddsmakers to be the next PM..

Doesn't suggest he is totally unelectable does it...

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 2:38 pm

Maybe. Maybe not. The numbers you quote were from previous votes etc. If he were to move Labour further left, with more moderate Labour MPs possibly leaving, I suspect that would harm those numbers you quote, rather than improve upon them.

I don’t think he can win a majority even now, and less likely if he goes all Marxist/Leninist. Best he could do is a minority or be the largest partner in a coalition.
Labour would walk it with pretty much anyone else but Corbyn I imagine.
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Post by El Radar on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 3:12 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Won seats last time and got the biggest rise in vote share since 1945...

He is also favourite with the oddsmakers to be the next PM..

Doesn't suggest he is totally unelectable does it...

I would suggest the oddsmakers don't have a clue, the next PM will be a Tory handpicked by the party in anticipation for a general election.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 05 Feb 2019, 1:12 pm

You can suggest what you like and please do...

I suggest no one has the slightest idea of what would happen over a 6 week GE campaign..

Do I think Corbyn wins ??...No....But I think he has a fair chance..

He was 10 seats a way from being PM in a coalition last time

Worth remembering that whatever Brexit deal we get..Will upset one side of the Tories..

Have to factor in that post withdrawal politics will be a different environment than the kicked can one we have now..




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Post by El Radar on Tue 05 Feb 2019, 1:17 pm

It's quite simple really; Theresa May has said she is stepping down before the next general election so the Tories will have a new leader and therefore a new PM, the general election itself doesn't come into it.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 05 Feb 2019, 4:57 pm

Its quite simple really...Theresa May said she wasn't going to call an Election back in March 2017..

Its quite simple really...Theresa May said we weren't going to be in the single market in her Florence speech..

It's quite simple really...You shouldn't believe a word she says.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue 05 Feb 2019, 4:58 pm

Corbyn hasn't got a hope in hell. He won't get enough votes to get Labour in without a coalition and who is actually going to go into a coalition with him?

It is not as if he's ever cultivated the other party leaders either, quite the opposite,

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 05 Feb 2019, 8:00 pm

Any new Centrist Party will turn the UK into a Tories dream as it would splinter the Labour vote to pieces. No point to it whatsoever unless it will look to appeal to Tory voters too.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 06 Feb 2019, 9:53 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Any new Centrist Party will turn the UK into a Tories dream as it would splinter the Labour vote to pieces. No point to it whatsoever unless it will look to appeal to Tory voters too.
You don’t think there are centrist Tories then, who’re fed up with those such as Francois, Rees-Mogg etc and the apparent Tory shift to the Right?
You might be right though, if Labour splintered and the Tories didn’t, would be a problem for anyone hankering for a non-Tory Government.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 06 Feb 2019, 11:01 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Any new Centrist Party will turn the UK into a Tories dream as it would splinter the Labour vote to pieces. No point to it whatsoever unless it will look to appeal to Tory voters too.
You don’t think there are centrist Tories then, who’re fed up with those such as Francois, Rees-Mogg etc and the apparent Tory shift to the Right?
You might be right though, if Labour splintered and the Tories didn’t, would be a problem for anyone hankering for a non-Tory Government.

There are but could they bring themselves to align themselves with what would be seen as an off-shoot of the Labour Party. I doubt it.
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Post by El Radar on Wed 06 Feb 2019, 11:19 am

The moderates on both sides routinely work together on a manner of different committees.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 15 Feb 2019, 9:54 pm

Duty281 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/02/rebel-labour-mps-set-to-quit-party-and-form-centre-group

Are we ready?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/15/uk-mps-intense-talks-setting-up-new-centrist-party-labour

And I mean properly ready.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 16 Feb 2019, 11:08 am

Duty281 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/02/rebel-labour-mps-set-to-quit-party-and-form-centre-group

Are we ready?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/15/uk-mps-intense-talks-setting-up-new-centrist-party-labour

And I mean properly ready.

What are they going to call themselves?

LabourCons United.
Labour Rejects
The Fence Sitters Party
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Post by Cardiff Dave on Sun 17 Feb 2019, 10:34 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/02/rebel-labour-mps-set-to-quit-party-and-form-centre-group

Are we ready?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/15/uk-mps-intense-talks-setting-up-new-centrist-party-labour

And I mean properly ready.

What are they going to call themselves?


The Mickey Mouse Club
Kraftwerk
Whatever


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 18 Feb 2019, 1:36 pm

This new Independent Group ruling out joining the Lib Dems...Big decision then for the Lib Dems...You would think the Centre is too small for both..

Be interesting what their policies are....Crapping on Labour while spouting out vacuous garbage will soon wear thin after an initial novelty bounce..

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 18 Feb 2019, 1:43 pm

https://www.theindependent.group/statement

They've given a very harsh rebuke to the Labour Party. It will be interesting to see how many more (if any) will join them over the coming days/weeks/months. And, while of course they don't have to, I'd respect them a lot more if they resigned as MPs and stood again as independents.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 18 Feb 2019, 2:03 pm

Lose their seats doing that... Not that brave.

Interesting that they only seem interested in crapping on Labour and not fighting Tory cuts..

Like I said....Big bounce and then vacuous Bollox wears thin..

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 18 Feb 2019, 2:57 pm

I cannot see this split having the effect some might think. I do not see any leader-type figures or major names amongst them to maximise this new movement. Seems more like a disorganised rabble.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 18 Feb 2019, 3:51 pm

What happens with the Lib Dems is the big question ???......I imagine when some of Labour split in the 80s they became the third party with the Liberals.....I guess the Lib Dems weren't sullied with the aftermath of a Tory coalition back then and Blairism wasn't a word let alone the dirty one it is now which is associated with illegal wars..

But who knows ????.....Labour were looking at decimation in May 2017.......In June 2017 they were 7,000 votes away from Downing St..

Maybe this new Party will fly...........Maybe it won't..

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 18 Feb 2019, 5:46 pm

New Party only been up and running a couple of hours and it has a racism row already..

Not a good idea to call BME people...People with a funny tinge..

Personally don't agree with the PC brigade jumping on tongue slips....Shouldn't think Angela Smith meant any offence.

But with more publicity brings greater scrutiny.

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Post by JDizzle on Mon 18 Feb 2019, 9:49 pm

Luciana Berger out, Derek Hatton in. The Labour Party, 2019.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 12:17 am

There's an interesting blog by Stephen Bush in the New Statesman from this morning. He makes the point that they've clearly chosen the moment now because it's a relatively quiet week, at least media wise (nothing happening in Commons on the Brexit front, and that's all the media seem interested in nowadays). This of course guarantees more publicity and media presence, but also more scrutiny, so it's a double-edged sword. Hence the fuss over Smith's racist comments and mealy-mouthed apology, and it's also been spotted that by setting themselves up as a private company rather than a political party they don't have to declare donations or where their funding comes from.

Overall, the media response has somewhat surprised me. I thought they'd be generally painting this as the best thing since sliced bread (or at least Tony Blair), but, while generally sympathetic, they've also been quite unenthusiastic about the whole thing. There's been an underlying current of "two-and-a-half years of waiting for that, is that it?". It's hard to disagree TBH: as Truss says there are no actual policies beyond some rather vacuous "values" statement, and while the 7 may agree that they really, really, don't like Corbyn, it's not so easy to see what else they might agree on.

Still early days of course. I think one of the keys could be getting some centrist Tories on board TBH. Otherwise it risks just looking like a "prevent a Labour government at all costs" exercise, led by ex-Labour MPs who spent their last years as Labour members almost exclusively criticising their own party, and I don't think that'll work. If they do get say, some of Soubry, Wollaston, Boles, Allen, etc. on board, then it looks more like a proper centrist movement, and would IMO have a better chance of success.

On the byelection thing, I'm with Duty. Every single bit of polling undertaken suggests that very few of the electorate vote for a candidate personally, they tend to vote by party. These 6 were elected on a Labour manifesto, with the help of Labour volunteers and Labour party resources. So the right thing to do would be to seek re-election as independents, especially given one of their movement's messages is that too many voters feel unrepresented. They won't of course, because despite those words they know they would lose (fairly badly in most cases, I suspect). That's disappointing, but not really surprising.

Overall, as a left-winger, I have rather mixed feelings about it all. I actually think the centre does need proper representation, but the FPTP system entrenches the two party system to the extent that it's incredibly difficult for another party to make real gains (e.g. in 2010 the Lib Dems vote share was close to the two main parties, but they still ended up with only a fraction of their numbers of seats).

I feel desperately sad that Luciana Berger has felt she had to quit, some of the abuse she has had is simply unacceptable, and a sad indictment of the times in general, and social media in particular. It's simply too easy to insult someone online in a way you would never dare do to their face. The Labour leadership have, in my view, been too slow to act at times, albeit the anonymity of the internet can make action hard in too many cases.

The others bother me... less. I'm not crowing about their leaving, nor am I particularly upset or angry. If anything, I feel rather relieved (possibly an odd sentiment, but there you go). I don't expect everyone in the party to agree on everything, that would be silly. Healthy disagreement and robust debate are good. I do, however, think a necessary pre-requisite of standing on a Labour ticket, is that you want to work towards a Labour government. With Gapes, Leslie, Smith and Umuna, I get the feeling that that's not been the case since 2015, maybe before. I also think they've been more than a bit contemptuous of and insulting towards the Labour party members, which really shouldn't happen. So while I'm not toasting their departure, the feeling I have is that of a dysfunctional relationship that's finally over: a bit of sadness, but mostly relief that it's done.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 8:10 am

Great post MfC.

I'd also say it would be best for all concerned if anyone else grieviously unhappy with Corbyn/Labour left now or forever hold their peace. The door is open for them to exit.

Those that remain need to all pull together in the same direction for the same cause. To be honest I cannot see any new party making a great difference unless they bring something new to the political table with a strong identity. Those that have broken awsy I see no real stand-out leader or strong figurehead type to spearhead them and at present they are directionless.
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Post by SecretFly on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 9:40 am

Let's call it New Labour! A return of an old family favourite stuffed with con Labour college grads who never did a day's 'Labour' in their lives.

It's laughable how gullible these people continue to believe their voting public is. These choreographed drones (the resigned) were infiltrated in to the party, given their sleeper cell status and then instructed to do the 'dirty' to try to disrupt Labour and Corby as much as possible. You can't leave what you never belonged to - Blairite Conservates on another mission to kill off Labour - old show.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 9:48 am

If I were a Labour MP and was subjected to racist abuse by party members, and the leadership took no action, I'd probably leave the party as well.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 10:07 am

Who was doing the Racist abuse? We all know how wars often happen... the 'abuse' and anti-semitism is just as likely to be an orchestration as a bunch of planted pretend Labour people designed to do the dirty when necessary. Military strategy, we think it doesn't happen in politics?
I'm much too right to have much time for Leftist ideology, so I wouldn't find myself having much in common with Corbin or his party... but the truth is still the truth. This is an yet another attempted hatchet job on Corbin and his followers, designed by Blairite Conservatives ( I say Conservative because that's what Blair always was... his very role was to kill off traditional Labour philosophy, from the inside, as another plant.
All these pretend Labour people who say they have Labour values but want it to be centrist..well, I say, your all much more Conservative in real terms so why not join the Conservatives and force It down a more centrist road - after all, the centre is the centre.
But of course strategically, that would be dumb as the objective is to kill off traditional Labour.... so join Labour!

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 10:14 am

Yeah. And getting Jeremy Corbyn installed as leader was a plot by the Conservatives to ensure Labour never got back in power. Hey, it's 'just as likely' and the truth is still the truth entirely your own point of view.

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Post by superflyweight on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 10:18 am

There's no difference between the truth and the mindless ramblings of an idiot.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 10:24 am

Keep up the good fight, Fly. A man's gotta make a living someday. It seems your role is to 'attempt' ridicule of subversives who bring independent and therefore dangerous thinking onto 606 off-topic boards. Like I say, keep it up... I like to see the cogs working.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 10:30 am

I smell fear. The old tools of the actors are exposed... but they can't adapt so keep trying the old tricks. Yep, Corbin might be a plant.... of course he could... it's pretty powerful entities that control the 'appearance' of politics. But that doesn't change the truth about Conservative/establishment approved Blair and his objective to kill off real opposition to establishment control of power. Vote Conservative or Blairite Conservative. Anybody who thinks this wasn't the reality is either very naive or a giggling Conservative.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 10:35 am

Secret, you're hardly subversive, and your thinking is no more independent or dangerous than most other people's. But you have a real need to think that it is.

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Post by JDizzle on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 10:37 am

Oh yes. Mike Gapes - the Labour Party member for 50 years was a plant. That is a hell of a long game.

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