Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

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Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by Newsilure on Mon 02 Apr 2018, 6:03 pm

As a Blues fan I am delighted that they have exceeded my expectations, if not my hopes, for the season. After this weekend’s win in Edinburgh we are in a good position to get to the final of the Challenge Cup and our recent league performances mean we should qualify for next year’s Champions Cup. We also have a chance to get to the Pro 14 playoff’s, but it’s when thinking of that possibility and the future that I find doubts really bring me back to earth with a bump.

After picking up a few injuries on the weekend it seems quite likely that our resources will be too thin to allow us to make playoff qualification and even if we did we would struggle to hold our own with the other playoff teams who will mainly be also semi-finalists in the Champions Cup. Danny Wilson and his team have got just about the maximum achievement that can be expected from the available players and it is hard not to feel that without significant investment our new coach will do very well just to maintain our position let alone improve it.
These are the main reasons I feel doubts about the future –

1. The size and to some degree age of our current squad. The Scarlets have a squad of 53 players, the Dragons 50, the Ospreys 45 and the Blues only 38. Our best front row will average 39 years old by this Christmas.
2. We haven’t recruited any players for next season. The Dragons have already recruited about 8 and the Osprey’s and Scarlets several each. Our only new player is Ollie Robinson who is already included in the squad of 38. We have a very strong academy and, if the money is available, several of them will take up full contracts next year but experienced recruits are essential to further develop the squad.
3. Our current head coach gave notice in September, presumably preferring to be an assistant coach elsewhere rather than slog on trying to build a team without money. We have spent six months scouring the world for a new coach and have been unable to attract any top flight candidates, presumably because they can see little hope of being successful. No offence to John Mulvihill, who I hope will be a great success, but 6 months ago would he have been in anyone’s top 10, 20, or even 30 candidates?
4. There are 17 dual contract players in Wales but only two of them are with the Blues and one of those is Sam who hasn’t played this year, and yes he is one of the 38 in the squad. Even successful players that owe their start to the Blues, such as Lee Halfpenny, Bradley Davies and even Jamie Roberts have turned down opportunities to re-join. I don’t blame them as they clearly have the same doubts as me about the region’s future.
5. Our Chief Executive and board seem more interested in developing a future than the playing squad. As a Glamorgan cricket fan this reminds me so much of the years that club has wasted trying to attract test cricket to the stadium rather than trying to build a successful team. That is completely the opposite prioritisation to that which the fans would choose.

The only ways I can see things changing are if we get a new owner/board or if the WRU changes to equally share centrally contracted players amongst the clubs.

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 02 Apr 2018, 6:33 pm

I'm happy that the Blues have made the semi's of the challenge cup. It's not a competition for mugs that's for sure, there's some good teams playing in there and Blues have already beaten a few of them. The several points you've highlighted I agree with and it's something I've been saying since the start of the season. I remember it falling upon deaf ears with some of your fellow fans though. Also Wilson has been quite underappreciated by some of the fans which is evident from reading the responses online - I think it's only now that they realize he's been their best coach for the last 10 years.

The issues with your team have been around for a while so like you allude to it could be the board. At this point maybe WRU ownership is the only way to go? Get current guys like Navidi and Davies on dual contracts, target internationals like Francis is a good start. I've seen your academy graduates in the front row play some rugby, I don't think they're ready.

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 02 Apr 2018, 6:36 pm

And on John Mulvihill.... surely there was a better candidate? Were there budget restrictions on the coach and they had to get this guy for peanuts? Either way it can be seen as a huge step back at this point. I'd currently rank him among the likes of Phil Davies, Baber, Burnell, etc.

Hammett was probably still available....

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by LeinsterFan4life on Mon 02 Apr 2018, 7:05 pm

All those things are out of the fans control. If I were you I wouldn't worry too much about the future, just enjoy the rest of the season as your team has been brilliant recently. Hopefully if the blues make a European final the club will become more attractive to Welsh players looking to come back from abroad.

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by XR on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 9:53 am

Newsilure wrote:1. The size and to some degree age of our current squad.  The Scarlets have a squad of 53 players, the Dragons 50, the Ospreys 45 and the Blues only 38. Our best front row will average 39 years old by this Christmas.

This was a Danny Wilson decision, he wanted to have a small squad and there was a lot of dross cut from it (think: ponty players who were signed by phil davies/chief and john). I think out best front row doesn't include Filise but Dillon Lewis. Whether Matthew Rees is offered a new contract depends on if they feel we have adequate backups behind dacey. gethin can still go.


Newsilure wrote:2. We haven’t recruited any players for next season. The Dragons have already recruited about 8 and the Osprey’s and Scarlets several each. Our only new player is Ollie Robinson who is already included in the squad of 38. We have a very strong academy and, if the money is available, several of them will take up full contracts next year but experienced recruits are essential to further develop the squad.

This can be quite misleading. We have quite a lot of experience through the squad, obviously you have the front row but there's also Josh Turnbull, Lloyd Williams, Blaine Scully, Tom James, George Earle, Nick Williams, Warburton (when about) and guys like Navidi and Ellis have been around a while. It's not experience we need, it's that extra quality.

Newsilure wrote:3. Our current head coach gave notice in September, presumably preferring to be an assistant coach elsewhere rather than slog on trying to build a team without money. We have spent six months scouring the world for a new coach and have been unable to attract any top flight candidates, presumably because they can see little hope of being successful. No offence to John Mulvihill, who I hope will be a great success, but 6 months ago would he have been in anyone’s top 10, 20, or even 30 candidates?

Who knows? Would Wayne Pivac had been before the Scarlets? It's not about the name of the coach but how good they are. Danny Wilson isn't a 'top flight candidate' and look what he has achieved.

Newsilure wrote:4. There are 17 dual contract players in Wales but only two of them are with the Blues and one of those is Sam who hasn’t played this year, and yes he is one of the 38 in the squad. Even successful players that owe their start to the Blues, such as Lee Halfpenny, Bradley Davies and even Jamie Roberts have turned down opportunities to re-join. I don’t blame them as they clearly have the same doubts as me about the region’s future.

For me, this is linked to squad sizes and signing new players. If the blues had more NDC players in their squad, there would be a significantly more budget available to sign new players. Look at the recruitment of the Scarlets, that is owed (in part) to the fact that a lot of their big earners only have 40% of their pay come from the Scarlets. That's a massive saving when you consider what guys like Halfpenny must be on.

In time, if they continue, you could argue a case for guys like Seb, Dillon, Ellis, Josh, Tomos, Jarrod and Lane getting a NDC but I imagine they'll something to the NDC before that happens.

Newsilure wrote:5. Our Chief Executive and board seem more interested in developing a future than the playing squad. As a Glamorgan cricket fan this reminds me so much of the years that club has wasted trying to attract test cricket to the stadium rather than trying to build a successful team. That is completely the opposite prioritisation to that which the fans would choose.

Aren't they linked? You develop the ground and surrounding areas, new income comes in which see's investment in the squad grow as more money becomes available. It's about patience which, as blues fans we have very little considering how the team has gone since Dai left.

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by XR on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 9:55 am

mikey_dragon wrote:And on John Mulvihill.... surely there was a better candidate? Were there budget restrictions on the coach and they had to get this guy for peanuts? Either way it can be seen as a huge step back at this point. I'd currently rank him among the likes of Phil Davies, Baber, Burnell, etc.

Hammett was probably still available....

How can you rank someone you've never heard of before among the likes of proven failures?

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by Brendan on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 12:28 pm

While I understand the worries but it's important to enjoy the moment

This has been a great year for the blues. Enjoy It, worry about the other things in the Summer. Blues for the past few seasons have not been the sum of their parts. This year they have no reason they can't do the same next year

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 7:39 pm

gcBlues wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:And on John Mulvihill.... surely there was a better candidate? Were there budget restrictions on the coach and they had to get this guy for peanuts? Either way it can be seen as a huge step back at this point. I'd currently rank him among the likes of Phil Davies, Baber, Burnell, etc.

Hammett was probably still available....

How can you rank someone you've never heard of before among the likes of proven failures?

Fair point but where would you rank him? Now bear in mind, this guy is an assistant coach at the mighty Honda Heat in Japan.... I can't see what other coaching experience he has prior to that?

I see you've also alluded to Pivac and Wilson when discussing Mulvihill. What an idiot comparison. Pivac has a few stints coaching professional teams in New Zealand's premier competition, and also a little international experience when he was head coach of Fiji (where he helped them win silverware). Danny Wilson also had a proven track record when he helped transform our U20s into a professional outfit. He was also forwards coach at 3 professional teams before joining the Blues.

I'd like to see Mulvihill succeed but I can't see it. Blues have varied between poor to average since the departure of Dai Young. After Wilson's hard work where he has been able to get the best of what he has to work with the squad is in need of an injection of high class coaching and playing quality (just a few position not wholesale changes). Do you think you can get that with Mulvihill? I just see this as a step backwards and a signing similar to that of Phil Davies, etc. I was pretty vocal over the signing of Davies and I turned out to be correct as usual.

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by LordDowlais on Mon 09 Apr 2018, 9:24 am

Hope for the future ?

I reckon you should hope that you know where you will be playing next season.

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by Cardiff Dave on Mon 09 Apr 2018, 7:54 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Hope for the future ?

I reckon you should hope that you know where you will be playing next season.

In Cardiff, most definitely.

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 10:02 am

I see that Mulvihill's CV isn't too widely known on this thread if some are thinking his professional experience is less than Pivac's or Wilson's. Also, it's best to remember that he was on the shortlist but many of the other candidates would not have unlocked the £200,000 from the WRU for signing a coach they approved of.

As for the number of players, this is odd. The present playing squad (including Academy players) costs £5.4m, with another £1m on coaching wages. Wasps are moaning about having to survive on 39 players. The Scarlets 'first team squad' includes their Academy players, but the Cardiff Blues first team squad does not. Owen Lane isn't even included in the first team squad on the website, as an example. So the "we've only got 38 players" line doesn't wash.

As for signings for next season, as Holland confirmed at the recent Q&A, there is budget for Mulvihill to sign the players he wants. The areas of weakness have been identified and players / agents have been sounded out, but the final decision now rests with JM.

As for the NDC issues, again this is being addressed and this was confirmed at the Q&A. Navidi is out of contract at the end of next season and they are hopeful of pushing him to an NDC in the short term - but that is only if NDCs survive under the RSA replacement.

As for the Chief Exec spending time trying to develop a ground - they have 4 years or so left on the present lease (although this may get a short term expansion). He has to move quickly in this area as any new build will take that long to go through planning and construction.
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 10:03 am

LordDowlais wrote:Hope for the future ?

I reckon you should hope that you know where you will be playing next season.

Odd comment. They know where they will be playing for seasons to come.
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 10:24 am

PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Hope for the future ?

I reckon you should hope that you know where you will be playing next season.

Odd comment. They know where they will be playing for seasons to come.

Where ?

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 10:31 am

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Hope for the future ?

I reckon you should hope that you know where you will be playing next season.

Odd comment. They know where they will be playing for seasons to come.

Where ?

Where they have a lease to play. Did you expect anything different?
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 11:10 am

PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Hope for the future ?

I reckon you should hope that you know where you will be playing next season.

Odd comment. They know where they will be playing for seasons to come.

Where ?

Where they have a lease to play. Did you expect anything different?

And where is this ? Would you like to tell us ?


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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 11:13 am

LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Hope for the future ?

I reckon you should hope that you know where you will be playing next season.

Odd comment. They know where they will be playing for seasons to come.

Where ?

Where they have a lease to play. Did you expect anything different?

And where is this ? Would you like to tell us ?


The Arms Park. Remember? The ground you tried telling the world they didn't gain the income from and where you claimed the clubhouse was outside of the ground.

Those were funny posts from you.
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by LordDowlais on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 11:22 am

PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Hope for the future ?

I reckon you should hope that you know where you will be playing next season.

Odd comment. They know where they will be playing for seasons to come.

Where ?

Where they have a lease to play. Did you expect anything different?

And where is this ? Would you like to tell us ?


The Arms Park. Remember? The ground you tried telling the world they didn't gain the income from and where you claimed the clubhouse was outside of the ground.

Those were funny posts from you.

Hook line and sinker.

And you will try and tell us that Cardiff Blues own all clubhouse and everything when they do not. It is owned by CAC. The same organisation that turned down your latest offer to "lease" the place.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/42975221

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/promises-cardiff-blues-made-over-14257182

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/turmoil-cardiff-blues-explained-theyre-14251878

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/realistic-and-not-realistic-options-14294221



Over to you, where will you be playing after 2022 ? This is what you lot need to be worrying about. Need to start shopping around next year.

Because you do not own the anything to do with Cardiff Arms Park, I was waiting for a nibble, I thought it would end up being somebody else as I thought you were done with this place, but it just goes to show doesn't it ?

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 11:26 am

a) I've never claimed they owned it. I wrote that they received the income from it. Why am I not surprised that you don't understand how leases work?
b) I know its owned by CAC. I'm a CAC member. Therefore, I part own it.
c) CAC didn't turn down the last offer. Club limited walked from negotiations but, since that time, a new CAC Chairman has been voted in and now negotiations are open again.
d) As I wrote above, it's likely that a short term extension beyond 2022 will be agreed by the new Chair so that the RSA replacement can be sorted. After that (as its likely to be a rolling deal) the redevelopment plans can be looked at again. Therefore, it's very likely that the pro team will stay at CAP well beyond 2022.

I think that the nibble you were hoping for wasn't one that showed, again, that you are clueless. Sadly for you, that's the nibble you got. You got the bite from the poster on here who actually knows what is going on. Sorry about that.
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 4:39 pm

PhilBB wrote:I see that Mulvihill's CV isn't too widely known on this thread if some are thinking his professional experience is less than Pivac's or Wilson's. Also, it's best to remember that he was on the shortlist but many of the other candidates would not have unlocked the £200,000 from the WRU for signing a coach they approved of.

As for the number of players, this is odd. The present playing squad (including Academy players) costs £5.4m, with another £1m on coaching wages. Wasps are moaning about having to survive on 39 players. The Scarlets 'first team squad' includes their Academy players, but the Cardiff Blues first team squad does not. Owen Lane isn't even included in the first team squad on the website, as an example. So the "we've only got 38 players" line doesn't wash.

As for signings for next season, as Holland confirmed at the recent Q&A, there is budget for Mulvihill to sign the players he wants. The areas of weakness have been identified and players / agents have been sounded out, but the final decision now rests with JM.

As for the NDC issues, again this is being addressed and this was confirmed at the Q&A. Navidi is out of contract at the end of next season and they are hopeful of pushing him to an NDC in the short term - but that is only if NDCs survive under the RSA replacement.

As for the Chief Exec spending time trying to develop a ground - they have 4 years or so left on the present lease (although this may get a short term expansion). He has to move quickly in this area as any new build will take that long to go through planning and construction.

Good to know Phil, it sounds hopeful. 'Areas of weakness identified...' Really? I wouldn't trust your lost on that one.

Is there something on Mulvhill's CV that the rest of us haven't seen?

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 4:46 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Good to know Phil, it sounds hopeful. 'Areas of weakness identified...' Really? I wouldn't trust your lost on that one.

Is there something on Mulvhill's CV that the rest of us haven't seen?

The squad is in pretty good shape but just needs depth in the front five, but mostly to replace leavers like the King of Tonga.

Mulvihill's got a strong Super Rugby CV and is well known for being a tracksuit coach whose aim is to develop players, especially the younger players, and coaches. That's why Strange is on board, Hodges is on board and why JM's personal recommendation from Alec Evans was so warmly received.

I've no idea how quickly JM will learn the demands of northern hemisphere rugby as that is a big weakness in the set up (as it stands), but I wouldn't be surprised if JM doesn't lean on some of his contacts to get up to speed on that one.
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 4:58 pm

PhilBB wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Good to know Phil, it sounds hopeful. 'Areas of weakness identified...' Really? I wouldn't trust your lost on that one.

Is there something on Mulvhill's CV that the rest of us haven't seen?

The squad is in pretty good shape but just needs depth in the front five, but mostly to replace leavers like the King of Tonga.

Mulvihill's got a strong Super Rugby CV and is well known for being a tracksuit coach whose aim is to develop players, especially the younger players, and coaches. That's why Strange is on board, Hodges is on board and why JM's personal recommendation from Alec Evans was so warmly received.

I've no idea how quickly JM will learn the demands of northern hemisphere rugby as that is a big weakness in the set up (as it stands), but I wouldn't be surprised if JM doesn't lean on some of his contacts to get up to speed on that one.

Yeah it's the front 5 I was referring to. The back-row and backs are in good shape, but you could do with a new winger in addition to Lane being given a pro contract. I think North would be better off at Blues than Ospreys although I realize he won't be there all year.

I rate Jason Strange as he's actually got a decent track record - that's a good signing. I couldn't find much info on JM's experience, but it appears he also spent some time with the Western Force. I still don't think he's as great as Wilson and Pivac were back when they first moved over to Wales. Blues have improved and look better than they have done in almost 10 years so it's a critical moment right now. I'm not sure JM is the right one for the role but I do wish him well.

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 5:04 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:

Yeah it's the front 5 I was referring to. The back-row and backs are in good shape, but you could do with a new winger in addition to Lane being given a pro contract. I think North would be better off at Blues than Ospreys although I realize he won't be there all year.

I rate Jason Strange as he's actually got a decent track record - that's a good signing. I couldn't find much info on JM's experience, but it appears he also spent some time with the Western Force. I still don't think he's as great as Wilson and Pivac were back when they first moved over to Wales. Blues have improved and look better than they have done in almost 10 years so it's a critical moment right now. I'm not sure JM is the right one for the role but I do wish him well.

They are hopeful of North as the winger but, if not, the back three is pretty well stacked with Williams, Morgan, Scully, Lane, Summerhill, James (hopefully). They had a look at Ryan Edwards earlier in the year, too.

I don't know how you rate Strange as he's never coached a pro team season long. He's a complete punt. He's only coached amateurs and kids.

Mulvihill has coached Super Rugby, something Pivac never has done. If there's a willy waving contest on coaching records, JM's and WP's are pretty similar - Pivac has no Super Rugby experience but did coach Fiji. Danny, of course, was always going to welcomed at the club when he moved back after Bristol but he had never been HC before (and it showed). Danny should do wonders at Wasps.

JM ticked the £200k box. Nobody else did other than Boyd and Mallinder and neither of them wanted to work with a £5.5m squad when they knew they'd get offers to work with £8m squads. I think that's fair enough from their angle.

JM is a complete unknown in this country so I'm interested in seeing how he goes. How he manages the old heads and which players he picks up as signings should dictate his first few months.
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 5:20 pm

Most of them are good players, not sure if all of them are up to this standard - a standard which mirrors international intensity these days. Scully has looked good lately. I'm not sure if James can or will return.

It's a bit much to say he just coached kids when a number of them picked up pro contracts. He has a proven record with limited resources, that sounds promising to me.

Interesting that Danny cited budget as reasons for leaving, he must have been pretty sure that the team was going to go backwards next season. I hope JM can find some former super rugby players on the cheap. Botha just signed for Ospreys so these players are out there I guess.

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by PhilBB on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 5:23 pm

Strange has never coached professional adults. That's a fact, isn't it? So I'm not sure what yardstick you are using to measure him by.

Look at Cummings and Bulbring at the Turks, for cheapies.
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 6:10 pm

What do you mean by that? As I'm pretty sure Keelan Giles would have counted as a 'professional adult'... There is no particular yardstick. I suggested that based on what's he has already achieved it's a promising appointment.

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by Stone Motif on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 7:58 pm

PhilBB wrote:Strange has never coached professional adults. That's a fact, isn't it? So I'm not sure what yardstick you are using to measure him by.

Look at Cummings and Bulbring at the Turks, for cheapies.
Is it easier to coach someone with the fundamentals of their job in place or a kid who may not even have his driving license?
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by PhilBB on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 8:26 am

mikey_dragon wrote:What do you mean by that? As I'm pretty sure Keelan Giles would have counted as a 'professional adult'... There is no particular yardstick. I suggested that based on what's he has already achieved it's a promising appointment.

Strange hasn't produced a season long coaching plan for a team of adult professionals. That's what I mean.

If you've no particular yardstick for Strange yet you're rating him highly, why is your arbitrary yardstick not doing the same for Mulvihill?
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by PhilBB on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 8:27 am

Stone Motif wrote:
PhilBB wrote:Strange has never coached professional adults. That's a fact, isn't it? So I'm not sure what yardstick you are using to measure him by.

Look at Cummings and Bulbring at the Turks, for cheapies.
Is it easier to coach someone with the fundamentals of their job in place or a kid who may not even have his driving license?

When the opposition is a fully professional outfit, and the context is a £5.5m squad of pro players, neither option is relevant.
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by PhilBB on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 4:24 pm

PhilBB wrote:a) I've never claimed they owned it. I wrote that they received the income from it. Why am I not surprised that you don't understand how leases work?
b) I know its owned by CAC. I'm a CAC member. Therefore, I part own it.
c) CAC didn't turn down the last offer. Club limited walked from negotiations but, since that time, a new CAC Chairman has been voted in and now negotiations are open again.
d) As I wrote above, it's likely that a short term extension beyond 2022 will be agreed by the new Chair so that the RSA replacement can be sorted. After that (as its likely to be a rolling deal) the redevelopment plans can be looked at again. Therefore, it's very likely that the pro team will stay at CAP well beyond 2022.

I think that the nibble you were hoping for wasn't one that showed, again, that you are clueless. Sadly for you, that's the nibble you got. You got the bite from the poster on here who actually knows what is going on. Sorry about that.

I knew that the Spoofer Dowlais wouldn't respond to this kicking.
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by Cardiff Dave on Fri 13 Apr 2018, 9:17 am

PhilBB wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:What do you mean by that? As I'm pretty sure Keelan Giles would have counted as a 'professional adult'... There is no particular yardstick. I suggested that based on what's he has already achieved it's a promising appointment.

Strange hasn't produced a season long coaching plan for a team of adult professionals. That's what I mean.

If you've no particular yardstick for Strange yet you're rating him highly, why is your arbitrary yardstick not doing the same for Mulvihill?

I want one.
Seem quite popular these days. Convinced the council use them.
In imperial and metric if poss. Adjustable too.
Gonna check on Amazon.

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 13 Apr 2018, 3:58 pm

PhilBB wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:What do you mean by that? As I'm pretty sure Keelan Giles would have counted as a 'professional adult'... There is no particular yardstick. I suggested that based on what's he has already achieved it's a promising appointment.

Strange hasn't produced a season long coaching plan for a team of adult professionals. That's what I mean.

If you've no particular yardstick for Strange yet you're rating him highly, why is your arbitrary yardstick not doing the same for Mulvihill?

Highly? Like I said it's a promising appointment. He's a Welsh coach, he's achieved well with what he's had. It's perhaps a good idea to nurture him, say, by making him an assistant to an experienced-proven coach at a pro outfit? Except JM isn't really all that experienced right? Depending on your perspective I guess.

As I keep suggesting I would have hired a proven coach and that's some JM isn't no matter what spin you try and put on it.

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by PhilBB on Fri 13 Apr 2018, 4:19 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:

Highly? Like I said it's a promising appointment. He's a Welsh coach, he's achieved well with what he's had. It's perhaps a good idea to nurture him, say, by making him an assistant to an experienced-proven coach at a pro outfit? Except JM isn't really all that experienced right? Depending on your perspective I guess.

As I keep suggesting I would have hired a proven coach and that's some JM isn't no matter what spin you try and put on it.

Mulvihill is hugely experienced, Mikey. That's exactly why the WRU were keen for him to work with young coaches. That's exactly the point. That's why they released the £200k.

Mulvihill isn't a proven Super Rugby coach? By what definition are you now arbitrarily using "proven"?

Plus, of course, let me know which coaches are queuing up to work with £5-6m squads in a league like the PrO'14. You must agree there are at least 31 European Head Coach positions that are more attractive.
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by mikey_dragon on Fri 13 Apr 2018, 4:56 pm

There is no scientific method here Phil, which is what I think you're looking for? It's a just a point of view. Also bear in mind that until we spoke a couple days ago I had no idea that JM coached in Super Rugby - all I could find on the internet was Barbarians and 2nd Division coaching in Japan. I've actually found his LinkedIn profile now though which highlights more experience than I thought.

Who released what $200K? I'm not really clued up on the financial situation.

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 15 Apr 2018, 12:57 am

Great news as Cardiff Blues secure themselves champions cup rugby once more!

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by Pot Hale on Sun 15 Apr 2018, 2:40 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Great news as Cardiff Blues secure themselves champions cup rugby once more!

Great result for,the Blues. Would be amazing if Benetton joined them.
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by Cardiff Dave on Sun 15 Apr 2018, 10:18 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Great news as Cardiff Blues secure themselves champions cup rugby once more!

Ditto Dragons, as they secure themselves Challenge Cup rugby once more. Very Happy

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by The Oracle on Sun 15 Apr 2018, 1:45 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Great news as Cardiff Blues secure themselves champions cup rugby once more!

Ditto Dragons, as they secure themselves Challenge Cup rugby once more. Very Happy

Yes a great achievement by the Dragons. We worked bloody hard for that!
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by Stone Motif on Sun 15 Apr 2018, 5:25 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
PhilBB wrote:Strange has never coached professional adults. That's a fact, isn't it? So I'm not sure what yardstick you are using to measure him by.

Look at Cummings and Bulbring at the Turks, for cheapies.
Is it easier to coach someone with the fundamentals of their job in place or a kid who may not even have his driving license?

When the opposition is a fully professional outfit, and the context is a £5.5m squad of pro players, neither option is relevant.

So coaching ability is irrelevant when you have an inferior/limited squad? Warren Gatland and Bernard Jackman will be delighted with thus volte face...
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 16 Apr 2018, 8:48 am

mikey_dragon wrote:There is no scientific method here Phil, which is what I think you're looking for? It's a just a point of view. Also bear in mind that until we spoke a couple days ago I had no idea that JM coached in Super Rugby - all I could find on the internet was Barbarians and 2nd Division coaching in Japan. I've actually found his LinkedIn profile now though which highlights more experience than I thought.

Who released what $200K? I'm not really clued up on the financial situation.

The £200k comes from the WRU if a coach is appointed that they approve of. Keep in mind, however, this was also the case with Phil Davies.
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 16 Apr 2018, 8:49 am

Stone Motif wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
PhilBB wrote:Strange has never coached professional adults. That's a fact, isn't it? So I'm not sure what yardstick you are using to measure him by.

Look at Cummings and Bulbring at the Turks, for cheapies.
Is it easier to coach someone with the fundamentals of their job in place or a kid who may not even have his driving license?

When the opposition is a fully professional outfit, and the context is a £5.5m squad of pro players, neither option is relevant.

So coaching ability is irrelevant when you have an inferior/limited squad? Warren Gatland and Bernard Jackman will be delighted with thus volte face...

You lost me at that massive leap of logic, sorry. Unsurprisingly, I'll add, because to extrapolate your post from the one I'd written was an act of pure fiction.
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by Stone Motif on Mon 16 Apr 2018, 3:00 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
PhilBB wrote:Strange has never coached professional adults. That's a fact, isn't it? So I'm not sure what yardstick you are using to measure him by.

Look at Cummings and Bulbring at the Turks, for cheapies.
Is it easier to coach someone with the fundamentals of their job in place or a kid who may not even have his driving license?

When the opposition is a fully professional outfit, and the context is a £5.5m squad of pro players, neither option is relevant.

So coaching ability is irrelevant when you have an inferior/limited squad? Warren Gatland and Bernard Jackman will be delighted with thus volte face...

You lost me at that massive leap of logic, sorry. Unsurprisingly, I'll add, because to extrapolate your post from the one I'd written was an act of pure fiction.
No logic leap - question was asked as to whether Jason Strange would have an easier job arguably coaching the Blues that the Wales under 20s. You responded that the context of the Blues squad being relatively weak/underfunded in comparison to their opposition rendered the question meaningless. If there's a bit missed in between by all means enlighten.
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by PhilBB on Mon 16 Apr 2018, 3:49 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
No logic leap - question was asked as to whether Jason Strange would have an easier job arguably coaching the Blues that the Wales under 20s. You responded that the context of the Blues squad being relatively weak/underfunded in comparison to their opposition rendered the question meaningless. If there's a bit missed in between by all means enlighten.

The logic leap was to your claim of volte face and for some reason you mentioned Jackman and Gatland.

You asked a question that provided two options, but neither are relevant to the role he is taking up.

"Is it easier to coach someone with the fundamentals of their job in place or a kid who may not even have his driving license?"

As he's never run a team of adult professionals over a season long campaign, never worked to view the defensive patterns of different opposition with a weekly turnaround of professional players, neither option is relevant. Why is neither option relevant? Because the role is about his skills, not the skills of those he is coaching.

That's why you did commit a massive logic leap, as it seems that you were concentrating on the players he was coaching rather than the skillset he will have to develop.

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by Stone Motif on Tue 17 Apr 2018, 7:54 am

PhilBB wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
No logic leap - question was asked as to whether Jason Strange would have an easier job arguably coaching the Blues that the Wales under 20s. You responded that the context of the Blues squad being relatively weak/underfunded in comparison to their opposition rendered the question meaningless. If there's a bit missed in between by all means enlighten.

The logic leap was to your claim of volte face and for some reason you mentioned Jackman and Gatland.

You asked a question that provided two options, but neither are relevant to the role he is taking up.

"Is it easier to coach someone with the fundamentals of their job in place or a kid who may not even have his driving license?"

As he's never run a team of adult professionals over a season long campaign, never worked to view the defensive patterns of different opposition with a weekly turnaround of professional players, neither option is relevant. Why is neither option relevant? Because the role is about his skills, not the skills of those he is coaching.

That's why you did commit a massive logic leap, as it seems that you were concentrating on the players he was coaching rather than the skillset he will have to develop.


Righto. We'll just have to agree to disagree that regardless of his skill set, it is probably easier to get the captain of the Lions, Wales and the Blues - as erudite a pundit as I've seen - to understand what it is he wants him to do than it is a teenager. Good coaching inevitably being a two way street with plenty of exchange of ideas and your old favourite osmosis and all. So where does budget come into it again?
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by PhilBB on Tue 17 Apr 2018, 2:47 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
Righto. We'll just have to agree to disagree that regardless of his skill set, it is probably easier to get the captain of the Lions, Wales and the Blues - as erudite a pundit as I've seen - to understand what it is he wants him to do than it is a teenager. Good coaching inevitably being a two way street with plenty of exchange of ideas and your old favourite osmosis and all.  So where does budget come into it again?

The captain of the Lions, Wales and Cardiff would more likely question and judge why he is being asked to do something. He would also have the starting position of questioning Strange's ability to do the job, as Warburton will have experienced coaching sessions from some of the very best in the game.

A teenager will have none of that, so will just blindly do what he's told to do as "that's the way to get on" in his career.

So, you see, both require the skill of the coach to be the issue, rather than the skill of the player.

Budget is relevant because of the mixed ability of players to be coached, thus testing the skill of the coach even further.

These are basic facts that your analysis missed yet you still write in the style of somebody who thinks they are clever. What a terrible approach.
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by Stone Motif on Tue 17 Apr 2018, 4:09 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
Righto. We'll just have to agree to disagree that regardless of his skill set, it is probably easier to get the captain of the Lions, Wales and the Blues - as erudite a pundit as I've seen - to understand what it is he wants him to do than it is a teenager. Good coaching inevitably being a two way street with plenty of exchange of ideas and your old favourite osmosis and all.  So where does budget come into it again?

The captain of the Lions, Wales and Cardiff would more likely question and judge why he is being asked to do something. He would also have the starting position of questioning Strange's ability to do the job, as Warburton will have experienced coaching sessions from some of the very best in the game.

A teenager will have none of that, so will just blindly do what he's told to do as "that's the way to get on" in his career.

So, you see, both require the skill of the coach to be the issue, rather than the skill of the player.

Budget is relevant because of the mixed ability of players to be coached, thus testing the skill of the coach even further.

These are basic facts that your analysis missed yet you still write in the style of somebody who thinks they are clever. What a terrible approach.

Have a look in the mirror Phil, Jesus. That level of self-awareness would be a hoot if it was coming from Dowellais.

So it's a two way street as I've said, and you agreed, with the skill of the coach one of a range of factors that determine whether he is a success. You could only argue otherwise if as seems likely you have spent the majority of your life sat on your backside rather than participating in sport, because there is nothing truer in sport coaching than you being able to lead a horse to water but not being able to make it drink.


The receptiveness, experience and ability to challenge that comes with proven pro players is entirely relevant, regardless of how much you want to arbitrarily claim Jason Strange is a sh1t coach, as you've done with others. He might be an excellent coach, or he might be rubbish, but to say he won't have an easier job coaching a fully pro team, or that the higher standard of players he's working with won't make it easier for him to employ the coaching skills he does possess - even at a side as poorly funded as the Blues - is bizarre.

And to say the skill of the coach has a ceiling based on the limitations of his squad is a total volte face sorry. Let's hear your thoughts on why Warren Garland or Bernard Jackman are such bad coaches again if you like just to show us why.
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by PhilBB on Tue 17 Apr 2018, 4:23 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
Have a look in the mirror Phil, Jesus. That level of self-awareness would be a hoot if it was coming from Dowellais.

So it's a two way street as I've said, and you agreed, with the skill of the coach one of a range of factors that determine whether he is a success. You could only argue otherwise if as seems likely you have spent the majority of your life sat on your backside rather than participating in sport, because there is nothing truer in sport coaching than you being able to lead a horse to water but not being able to make it drink.

The receptiveness, experience and ability to challenge that comes with proven pro players is entirely relevant, regardless of how much you want to arbitrarily claim Jason Strange is a sh1t coach, as you've done with others. He might be an excellent coach, or he might be rubbish, but to say he won't have an easier job coaching a fully pro team, or that the higher standard of players he's working with won't make it easier for him to employ the coaching skills he does possess - even at a side as poorly funded as the Blues - is bizarre.

And to say the skill of the coach has a ceiling based on the limitations of his squad is a total volte face sorry. Let's hear your thoughts on why Warren Garland or Bernard Jackman are such bad coaches again if you like just to show us why.

I'm glad that you got the quip even if, typically, you didn't grasp it fully.

My coaching career was always of the nature that if the horse won't drink then you get rid of that horse and get some other horse in. That's probably why players move around so much. You know, pro sport and all that.

I've not claimed that Strange is a poor coach, so that's another piece of drivel from you. If you find it bizarre, you haven't asked yourself why some coaches shine with adults and others with kids. And you haven't done much thinking.

Neither Gatland nor Jackman has maximised the talent available to them. And I didn't claim that the "skill of the coach has a ceiling based on the limitations of his squad", either. So that is yet another piece of drivel and misinterpretation.
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by Cardiff Dave on Fri 08 Jun 2018, 12:20 pm

Halfway House of Frazer?
Where's Bob gonna buy his shoes in future?

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by Cardiff Dave on Fri 15 Jun 2018, 12:43 pm

New owners of the pie shop soon.
I'm welling up. It'll never be the same again. Like Clark's.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44493259

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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by The Oracle on Fri 15 Jun 2018, 3:58 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:New owners of the pie shop soon.
I'm welling up. It'll never be the same again. Like Clark's.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44493259


All the sugar daddies are bailing. I smell a rat!
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

Post by ScarletSpiderman on Fri 15 Jun 2018, 4:53 pm

The Oracle wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:New owners of the pie shop soon.
I'm welling up. It'll never be the same again. Like Clark's.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44493259


All the sugar daddies are bailing.  I smell a rat!

Pies leaving is one of those happy/sad moments. Like him or not he has kept the Blues going for so long, he deserves a lot of respect for what he has done. However, I do wonder if Hammett would’ve been successful if Pies wasn’t there backing the players over the coach. Mulvihill will hopefully be able to come on and have free reign over what happens with the team going forward without interference.

Also the Fail are saying Arhip is on his way in for next season after his deal in France has fallen through. If that’s true then he will be a hell of a statement of intent for the Blues.
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Re: Cardiff Blues - hope for the future?

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