Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

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Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Hazel Sapling on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 1:16 pm

First topic message reminder :

What is the appropriate way forward for Ulster?

Bring Jackson and Olding Back - They were found not guilt and have been punished far enough through reputational damage and a year's suspension

Look to move Olding and Jackson on for a period of time before bringing them back in a couple of seasons - They have brought damage to the Ulster brand and need to mature. This has to be done outside the comfort of Belfast

Terminate/buyout contracts and banish them - They crossed a line too far and they will never play for Ulster again

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 4:40 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:I personally think the worst texts were the ones by the other lads rather than Paddy J and Olding.

Exactly, the whole thing about respect for women is a smokescreen for the anger at the verdict. It's about destroying them because people can't accept the outcome of a trial they don't have the full facts from

100% IMO what those two said in their messages was vulgar enough but also fairly harmless. It was a private WhatsApp conversation. To be banned from playing rugby for Ulster for that would be ludicrous but not inconsistent with the wishes of a rabid hoard of clueless bozos that tend to march on issues they don't tend to understand.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Sin é on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 4:41 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:Can you tell me who the Munster/Leinster/Connacht players got done for drink driving, accused of r***, acquitted of r*** in court, end up in court for assault?

I can only think of Shaggy assaulting a doorman when he was a young fellow and Danny Barnes being accused of assault and which was settled out of court. He was gone from Munster the following season.

So now its about who ended up in court? So someone who is falsely accused and ends up in court is at fault? picard

Yes, it reflects badly on rugby and the people who play it. Sportspeople, whether they like it or not are role models.

You really are just a troll

So if I make a false accusation against you, you are to blame?

I bet you are one of those who blames r*** victims for getting drunk or wearing the wrong clothes

I think they should never have been in such a situation in the first place. And I think Ulster Rugby are as much to blame as they have been involved with Ulster from a young age and should have educated them on their responsibilities as role models how to behave towards other people. As Kathy Sheridan wrote in her IT column, she has seen young women throw themselves at Munster players and they managed to not take advantage.
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 4:44 pm

Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:Can you tell me who the Munster/Leinster/Connacht players got done for drink driving, accused of r***, acquitted of r*** in court, end up in court for assault?

I can only think of Shaggy assaulting a doorman when he was a young fellow and Danny Barnes being accused of assault and which was settled out of court. He was gone from Munster the following season.

Eddie Halvey killed a 16 year old boy because he was pi$$ed out of his head. He served no jail time whatsoever. Maybe you should be getting on your high horse about that?

Yes, he did and you won't see or hear too many people in Munster singing his praises. Mick Galwey who gave a character witness statement got huge criticism for doing it as well.

By the way, when the incident happened, Halvey was retired a couple of years.

I think you are missing the point. He wasn't jailed and he killed someone because he was filthy drunk. Who cares if he was retired, there are lots of people who believe his status as a former Munster player is what got him off and it is consistent with the regard Munster players are held in their province. Is that not what we are talking about.

I think that is a much bigger injustice than sending a vulgar WhatsApp message.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by marty2086 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 4:46 pm

Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:Can you tell me who the Munster/Leinster/Connacht players got done for drink driving, accused of r***, acquitted of r*** in court, end up in court for assault?

I can only think of Shaggy assaulting a doorman when he was a young fellow and Danny Barnes being accused of assault and which was settled out of court. He was gone from Munster the following season.

So now its about who ended up in court? So someone who is falsely accused and ends up in court is at fault? picard

Yes, it reflects badly on rugby and the people who play it. Sportspeople, whether they like it or not are role models.

You really are just a troll

So if I make a false accusation against you, you are to blame?

I bet you are one of those who blames r*** victims for getting drunk or wearing the wrong clothes

I think they should never have been in such a situation in the first place. And I think Ulster Rugby are as much to blame as they have been involved with Ulster from a young age and should have educated them on their responsibilities as role models how to behave towards other people. As Kathy Sheridan wrote in her IT column, she has seen young women throw themselves at Munster players and they managed to not take advantage.

Except Murray and Zebo did but that's ok...

Hypocrisy at it's finest


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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by PhilBB on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 4:49 pm

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Don Alfonso on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 4:53 pm

I listened to that WJB radio interview with Sean O'Rourke and O'Rourke referenced "Paddy Jackson sent one message saying "Love Belfast Sluts"." Basic journalism, lads. Basic journalism.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by brennomac on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 4:55 pm

Not an Ulster fan, but what happens to Jackson, Olding and Gilroy will come down to hard cash and the attitude of the sponsors like Kingspan, Bank of Ireland, Vodafone et al. The boys are innocent in the eyes of the law, but they have lost the PR battle comprehensively - and not helped by the warlike "we'll sue everybody" statement from Jackson's solicitor on the steps of the court.

As somebody who has worked in PR, I watched that speech by the solicitor and knew this was going to come back and bite them - and lo and behold we get the cringing statement from Jackson this week.

And then we had the interview with Willie John on Sean O'Rourke's programme on RTE this morning where he in effect said "boys will be boys" and seemed to be hugely impressed by Olding's capacity to sink vast volumes of booze. And this from a guy who captained the Lions to apartheid South Africa and regaled us all later with tales of trashing hotel rooms, don't think Willie John is the one to give character references.

Does this sort of stuff go on in other provinces or sports. I honestly don't know. I'm a Leinster fan and Horgan clocking the doorman years ago is the only episode I know of involving a Leinster player. As some posters have commented, the Halvey drink driving case was a scandal and was a case where he should got jail and not a suspended sentence and a rap on the wrist.

Other sports have their villains too - and as a Dub fan I have been disgusted at the behaviour at times of Diarmuid Connolly. And don't forget some of the first on to Twitter to attack the woman in the Belfast case was a Laois GAA player and a soccer player with Drogheda United. The Laois player was immediately dropped by the county days ahead of a key final.

No rugby team in Ireland and indeed no sport in Ireland has a monopoly on sh1t behaviour and maybe there are lots of other WhatsApp chats of the type that emerged in the Belfast r*** trial. I honestly don't know.

I don't get to watch a lot of Ulster matches, but the ones I do get to see are the games against Leinster-Munster-Connacht where Ravenhill is packed to the rafters, with a sizeable chunk of the Ulster supporters being young women of the age of the complainant. How impressed are they I wonder at the attempts to get Jackson and Olding reinstated.



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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Sin é on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 4:55 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
How to the rest of the other provinces more or less manage to keep themselves out of such controversy.

Munster sex tapes, Doug Howlett was arrested a number of years ago too
Mils Muliania arrested for r***
The Ireland team went on a three day drinking binge after winning the Grand Slam but just Ulster have problems

Rolling Eyes

Munster sex tapes were not headline news and as far as I recall didn't get into the public domain.

Doug Howlett - I believe that was a mistake (he wasn't arrested). Howlett sued Indep. for misreporting as well and won his case. He had to clear his name as that would have gone against him when applying for citizenship.

If referring to the arrest in London after the world cup worth noting:

All Blacks winger Doug Howlett has been found guilty of serious misconduct by the New Zealand Rugby Union following an incident after the World Cup quarter-final defeat by France last month.

He was drunk and jumping on cars.

Even though Mils was innocent, he was shipped out fairly quickly.

After the Grand Slam, POM, Earls & Murray, Best & Rob Kearney headed off to Dubai with wifes/girlfriends and children. I don't think they were on a 3 day binge.
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Sin é on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 4:59 pm

PhilBB wrote:

Thats a (poor) photoshop job.
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 5:01 pm

brennomac wrote:Not an Ulster fan, but what happens to Jackson, Olding and Gilroy will come down to hard cash and the attitude of the sponsors like Kingspan, Bank of Ireland, Vodafone et al.  The boys are innocent in the eyes of the law, but they have lost the PR battle comprehensively - and not helped by the warlike "we'll sue everybody" statement from Jackson's solicitor on the steps of the court.

As somebody who has worked in PR, I watched that speech by the solicitor and knew this was going to come back and bite them - and lo and behold we get the cringing statement from Jackson this week.

And then we had the interview with Willie John on Sean O'Rourke's programme on RTE this morning where he in effect said "boys will be boys" and seemed to be hugely impressed by Olding's capacity to sink vast volumes of booze. And this from a guy who captained the Lions to apartheid South Africa and regaled us all later with tales of trashing hotel rooms, don't think Willie John is the one to give character references.

Does this sort of stuff go on in other provinces or sports.  I honestly don't know.  I'm a Leinster fan and Horgan clocking the doorman years ago is the only episode I know of involving a Leinster player.  As some posters have commented, the Halvey drink driving case was a scandal and was a case where he should got jail and not a suspended sentence and a rap on the wrist.

Other sports have their villains too - and as a Dub fan I have been disgusted at the behaviour at times of Diarmuid Connolly. And don't forget some of the first on to Twitter to attack the woman in the Belfast case was a Laois GAA player and a soccer player with Drogheda United. The Laois player was immediately dropped by the county days ahead of a key final.

No rugby team in Ireland and indeed no sport in Ireland has a monopoly on sh1t behaviour and maybe there are lots of other WhatsApp chats of the type that emerged in the Belfast r*** trial.  I honestly don't know.

I don't get to watch a lot of Ulster matches, but the ones I do get to see are the games against Leinster-Munster-Connacht where Ravenhill is packed to the rafters, with a sizeable chunk of the Ulster supporters being young women of the age of the complainant.  How impressed are they I wonder at the attempts to get Jackson and Olding reinstated.


If I was a Ulster fan I wouldn't really care to be honest as they were found not guilty of any wrong doing which should be enough for sensible people.

That said I agree that the statement from Jackson's solicitor did seem a bit ill advised at the time. Also quite sad but true that their careers may revolve around sponsorship and more specifically public pressure from marching loonies.


Last edited by Collapse2005 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 5:02 pm

Sin é wrote:

Thats a (poor) photoshop job.

If you dig deep enough you will find plenty of stories swept under the carpet in Rog's parish.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by marty2086 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 5:09 pm

Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
How to the rest of the other provinces more or less manage to keep themselves out of such controversy.

Munster sex tapes, Doug Howlett was arrested a number of years ago too
Mils Muliania arrested for r***
The Ireland team went on a three day drinking binge after winning the Grand Slam but just Ulster have problems

Rolling Eyes

Munster sex tapes were not headline news and as far as I recall didn't get into the public domain.

Doug Howlett - I believe that was a mistake (he wasn't arrested).  Howlett sued Indep. for misreporting as well and won his case. He had to clear his name as that would have gone against him when applying for citizenship.

If referring to the arrest in London after the world cup worth noting:

So now it's about what made headlines, if it's about the headlines they can't be held responsible for someone making an unsubstantiated claim. If the actions are the problem then the Munster pair are equally as guilty, you can't have different logic for them.



Sin é wrote:After the Grand Slam, POM, Earls & Murray, Best & Rob Kearney headed off to Dubai with wifes/girlfriends and children. I don't think they were on a 3 day binge.

So they were on the pi$$ after the game, they were drinking from 10am on the Sunday (Joe Schmidt has talked publically about it), there are also plenty of videos about of it, there are also social media posts from the players out in Dublin on Sunday and Monday. Jordi Murphy also spoke about it in an interview and talked about returning to training after it.

The players flew out to Dubai on the 21st

But you 'think' otherwise so the facts must be wrong Rolling Eyes

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by PhilBB on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 5:12 pm

This thread is fantastically Irish. I've missed this.

It's hugely entertaining.
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 5:16 pm

Sin é wrote:

I think they should never have been in such a situation in the first place. And I think Ulster Rugby are as much to blame as they have been involved with Ulster from a young age and should have educated them on their responsibilities as role models how to behave towards other people. As Kathy Sheridan wrote in her IT column, she has seen young women throw themselves at Munster players and they managed to not take advantage.

I guess Kathy Sheridan wasn't there when Zebo and Murray met a girl in a chipper and brought back to their hotel for a good time. What a daft thing to say anyway, all rugby players to some extent have women throwing themselves at them fairly regularly.

Being a role model doesn't make you a good rugby player, if it did Peter McVerry would have over 100 caps for Ireland. I don't see why rugby players should have to be role models either, they have the same rights as everyone else. They might get extra sponsorship for playing nice but that's their choice.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Sin é on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 5:21 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:

Thats a (poor) photoshop job.

If you dig deep enough you will find plenty of stories swept under the carpet in Rog's parish.

Tell us a few then.
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by PhilBB on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 5:24 pm

Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:

Thats a (poor) photoshop job.

If you dig deep enough you will find plenty of stories swept under the carpet in Rog's parish.

Tell us a few then.

Don't fear, they'll all be photoshopped.
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 5:26 pm

I heard a rumour once that some people still think he is a better out half than Jonny Sexton.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Sin é on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 5:29 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:

I think they should never have been in such a situation in the first place. And I think Ulster Rugby are as much to blame as they have been involved with Ulster from a young age and should have educated them on their responsibilities as role models how to behave towards other people. As Kathy Sheridan wrote in her IT column, she has seen young women throw themselves at Munster players and they managed to not take advantage.

I guess Kathy Sheridan wasn't there when Zebo and Murray met a girl in a chipper and brought back to their hotel for a good time. What a daft thing to say anyway, all rugby players to some extent have women throwing themselves at them fairly regularly.

They learned their lesson. Both settled down now and learned the error of their ways. Zebo has 2 kids. Murray a steady girlfriend.

Being a role model doesn't make you a good rugby player, if it did Peter McVerry would have over 100 caps for Ireland. I don't see why rugby players should have to be role models either, they have the same rights as everyone else. They might get extra sponsorship for playing nice but that's their choice.

What in the name of god are you going on about if someone is good, they will be a good rugby player?
Whether sports people like it or not, they are role models. The sports sell them as good role models. This is what Ulster Rugby expect of their fans.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/branch/values.php#.Ws43OWaZPMU
VALUES

Ulster Rugby values and traditions work to make Kingspan Stadium one of the best places in Europe to watch live rugby.
We are proud that a night at the home of Ulster Rugby is a safe, enjoyable, inclusive experience for people of all ages. Here are our Ulster Rugby values and we ask all our fans to support them throughout the season:

- We are passionate in our support of the Ulster team
- We are silent during kicks at goal by both teams
- We respect the match officials' decisions
- We drink responsibly
- We are mindful of our language, especially when there are children and young people near us
- We do not tolerate sectarian, homophobic or derogatory language
- We respect the opposition players, supporters, management and officials.
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 5:32 pm

PhilBB wrote:This thread is fantastically Irish. I've missed this.

It's hugely entertaining.

It is. So why have you been absent, then, Phil? We’ve missed your err contributions.
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Sin é on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 6:38 pm

marty2086 wrote:
So they were on the pi$$ after the game, they were drinking from 10am on the Sunday (Joe Schmidt has talked publically about it), there are also plenty of videos about of it, there are also social media posts from the players out in Dublin on Sunday and Monday. Jordi Murphy also spoke about it in an interview and talked about returning to training after it.

The players flew out to Dubai on the 21st

But you 'think' otherwise so the facts must be wrong Rolling Eyes

It was claimed they had gone on a 3 day binge.
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by The Great Aukster on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 6:50 pm

Sin é wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
Sin é wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:What do the protesters want?

They obviously consider Jackson and Olding guilty, so do they think forcing them out of their job is a fitting punishment for a serious crime - doesn't seem very rational.

The issue is not the r*** trial, what the problem is their disrespectful attitude to women. Going on a four day drinking binge is hardly the best way to represent the values of Ulster rugby.  

They were responsible for Ulster Rugby, IRFU and the sport of rugby being the headline item on news reports on the island of Ireland for 9 weeks for all the wrong reasons. I can't see any sponsor wanting them to have their logo emblazoned across their chest, particular companies like Vodafone and Bank of Ireland whose customer base would be 50% women.

Turn on your radio and you will hear plenty of songs publicly broadcast with racism and sexism in the lyrics and 50% of the audience would be women. Why aren't these people protesting outside the RTE offices in Donnybrook or the BBC in Belfast against such disrespectful attitudes to women? Doesn't seem very consistent?

If it's the drinking binge they're protesting about why are they being singled out when it happens at other provinces and the national side too? Is there a rule for one and a different rule for another?
http://rugbylad.com/paul-oconnell-recalls-24-hour-drinking-binge-following-rwc-2011-loss/

Sin é wrote:62% of voters agreed to change the Constitution to recognise Same Sex Marriage. i'd imagine that the 38% who didn't agree with it felt aggrieved, but they have to accept it.
It's interesting that 100% of the jurors agreed on a not guilty verdict in a Court of Law, yet those who feel aggrieved do not accept it. It seems that in this case neither the Law nor Democracy are held in as high regard north of the border.

Sin é wrote:I don't know what you are listening to, but I can't recall any that are racist/sexist (the black rappers can say stuff that you and I would consider derogratory towards black people)

I don't think there is too much binge drinking going on in Munster/Leinster by the senior team anyway. What POC got up to was fairly harmless I'd say - I wonder how many shots his mother and father and John Eales knocked back on his binge drinking spree? I'd say the binge was he didn't go to bed for 24 hours.

And for ffs, can you not get it through your head that the issue is with their misogynic attitude towards women (displayed for all to see in their text messages to each other).

Your assertion was that "going on a four day drinking binge is hardly the best way to represent the values of Ulster rugby" yet what "POC got up to was fairly harmless". Can you agree that whatever the impact of either event on marketing revenue that this looks like double standards?

Well, first of all POC's 'binge' was 24 hours, not 48. Secondly, he was in good enough condition to meet his parents halfway through and have a chat with Eales. He even said that about 4 hours into his binge he could only about sip sparkling wine. Anyway, he wasn't picking up and having a threesome with Fergus McFadden and some young woman who he had never seen in his life before.

You can't recall any racist music yet then say "the black rappers can say stuff" that you would consider derogatory towards black people, so how do you know it's derogatory if you haven't heard it? Presumably 50% of the black people hearing the derogatory stuff are female so does that not qualify as being derogatory to women? Some people reckon anything from 20 to 35% of rap/Hip Hop music is misogynistic, so it's surprising that you've haven't heard any of this - here are a couple of articles with a plethora of examples:
http://www.thecrimson.com/column/where-rap-meets-race/article/2018/2/27/whererapmeetsrace-installment2/
https://www.stylist.co.uk/life/music-and-misogyny-why-were-all-listening-to-sexist-lyrics/56419

I had a look at the list you have there, I wouldn't be a big fan of any of them. According to one of those articles, most of them date back to the 60s/70s and recent one from Beyonce etc. have been criticised.

So why have the protesters suddenly taken umbrage with three privileged rugby players' private comments rather than the much coarser fare publicly broadcast? Logic would suggest that they are not protesting about the vocabulary at all but rather the trial outcome, which infers they do not support the Law nor the democracy that underpins it.

I'd imagine the reason why people don't want them wearing an Ireland jersey, representing them. Beyonce & co don't represent them.

And for the love of god, when will you get it into your head that the problem with the texts is what they were saying - i.e., joking about treating a woman like as if they were pigs on a spit. Its their attitude and total disrespect to women.

And no, its not sudden - we've had to listen to the tale of their sordid lives for the last nine weeks.

There was a woman on a chat show last week where she was saying that she and her 7 year old rugby playing son were watching one of the six nations games. She doesn't know a lot about rugby and the 7 year old was explaining to her about how Paddy Jackson was missing. She asked why he was missing and the 7 year old said he is missing because of the 'girl.' The child is 7! She said that they were all talking about it in the club.

Sin é wrote:Going on a four day drinking binge is hardly the best way to represent the values of Ulster rugby
Sin é wrote:Well, first of all POC's 'binge' was 24 hours, not 48
Aside from your inconsistency between 4 days and 48 hours, the point was whether binge drinking was the best way to represent the values of a rugby team, and considering POC's binge is not criticised in any way, logically that would suggest that it has next to no impact on sponsors. The protesters are clearly not castigating the players for their drinking habits, neither do the IRFU nor the provinces.

Regarding derogatory remarks, rugby supporters of both sexes were flooding the petition to support the players' re-instatement. Thousands of women (and men) apparently do not find Jackson and Oldings' remarks outweighing their wish to be represented by them as rugby players.

"A woman on a chat show" - seriously? There was uproar in 2001 when the fictitious Toyah in Coronation Street was r***ed, pre-watershed and viewed by all ages, prompting a whole swathe of difficult questions. Now such subjects are ubiquitous unless RTE censor them out?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Considering it only took 109 subscribers to reach the £2000 to match the ad placed by the 139 concerned protesters, (roughly 27% more per head) - do you still think Ulster supporters don't put their money where their mouth is?

BTW
6 November 2008 - Isaac Boss name is cleared
Isaac Boss confirmed that no charges would be brought against him following an investigation by the police into the woman's claims. "I have been confident from the outset that these malicious and unfounded allegations against me would be dismissed," Boss said in a written statement. "I have strenuously defended my good name from the outset but it has been a nightmare worrying that the truth would not come out."

While the decision not to bring charges cleared his reputation, the allegation had been "distressing and devastating" for him and his family. "I am grateful for the support of my family, friends and colleagues from rugby and across the sports community throughout this ordeal."

Speaking from Tokoroa this morning, Boss' dad Allan said "we just feel vindicated". "We all knew it was rubbish from the very beginning. This news is a load off his shoulders."

Boss' agent, Kent Hale, said "the false allegations made by a former acquaintance of Isaac's may leave the woman open to prosecution for wasting police time" “It had been Boss's high profile as an international rugby player that had made him vulnerable to the publicity the r*** claims attracted.”

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Standulstermen on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 8:00 pm

brennomac wrote:Not an Ulster fan, but what happens to Jackson, Olding and Gilroy will come down to hard cash and the attitude of the sponsors like Kingspan, Bank of Ireland, Vodafone et al.  The boys are innocent in the eyes of the law, but they have lost the PR battle comprehensively - and not helped by the warlike "we'll sue everybody" statement from Jackson's solicitor on the steps of the court.

As somebody who has worked in PR, I watched that speech by the solicitor and knew this was going to come back and bite them - and lo and behold we get the cringing statement from Jackson this week.

And then we had the interview with Willie John on Sean O'Rourke's programme on RTE this morning where he in effect said "boys will be boys" and seemed to be hugely impressed by Olding's capacity to sink vast volumes of booze. And this from a guy who captained the Lions to apartheid South Africa and regaled us all later with tales of trashing hotel rooms, don't think Willie John is the one to give character references.

Does this sort of stuff go on in other provinces or sports.  I honestly don't know.  I'm a Leinster fan and Horgan clocking the doorman years ago is the only episode I know of involving a Leinster player.  As some posters have commented, the Halvey drink driving case was a scandal and was a case where he should got jail and not a suspended sentence and a rap on the wrist.

Other sports have their villains too - and as a Dub fan I have been disgusted at the behaviour at times of Diarmuid Connolly. And don't forget some of the first on to Twitter to attack the woman in the Belfast case was a Laois GAA player and a soccer player with Drogheda United. The Laois player was immediately dropped by the county days ahead of a key final.

No rugby team in Ireland and indeed no sport in Ireland has a monopoly on sh1t behaviour and maybe there are lots of other WhatsApp chats of the type that emerged in the Belfast r*** trial.  I honestly don't know.

I don't get to watch a lot of Ulster matches, but the ones I do get to see are the games against Leinster-Munster-Connacht where Ravenhill is packed to the rafters, with a sizeable chunk of the Ulster supporters being young women of the age of the complainant.  How impressed are they I wonder at the attempts to get Jackson and Olding reinstated.



To answer a few points Brenno

1. I wholeheartedly agree it will come down to sponsors money. It shouldn't but it will. C'est la vie.
2. Don has already commented on the standard of journalism in the O'Rourke interview.
3. Jackson and Olding could have come out of court wearing a Cilice and flogged themselves on the steps of court and the response would still be the same
4. Im not convinced there will be the gender divide amongst Ulster fans. possibly more irish.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by marty2086 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 8:15 pm

Sin é wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
So they were on the pi$$ after the game, they were drinking from 10am on the Sunday (Joe Schmidt has talked publically about it), there are also plenty of videos about of it, there are also social media posts from the players out in Dublin on Sunday and Monday. Jordi Murphy also spoke about it in an interview and talked about returning to training after it.

The players flew out to Dubai on the 21st

But you 'think' otherwise so the facts must be wrong Rolling Eyes

It was claimed they had gone on a 3 day binge.

They were as they are entitled to do

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 10:56 pm

Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:

I think they should never have been in such a situation in the first place. And I think Ulster Rugby are as much to blame as they have been involved with Ulster from a young age and should have educated them on their responsibilities as role models how to behave towards other people. As Kathy Sheridan wrote in her IT column, she has seen young women throw themselves at Munster players and they managed to not take advantage.

I guess Kathy Sheridan wasn't there when Zebo and Murray met a girl in a chipper and brought back to their hotel for a good time. What a daft thing to say anyway, all rugby players to some extent have women throwing themselves at them fairly regularly.

They learned their lesson. Both settled down now and learned the error of their ways. Zebo has 2 kids. Murray a steady girlfriend.

Being a role model doesn't make you a good rugby player, if it did Peter McVerry would have over 100 caps for Ireland. I don't see why rugby players should have to be role models either, they have the same rights as everyone else. They might get extra sponsorship for playing nice but that's their choice.

What in the name of god are you going on about if someone is good, they will be a good rugby player?  
Whether sports people like it or not, they are role models. The sports sell them as good role models. This is what Ulster Rugby expect of their fans.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/branch/values.php#.Ws43OWaZPMU
VALUES

Ulster Rugby values and traditions work to make Kingspan Stadium one of the best places in Europe to watch live rugby.
We are proud that a night at the home of Ulster Rugby is a safe, enjoyable, inclusive experience for people of all ages. Here are our Ulster Rugby values and we ask all our fans to support them throughout the season:

- We are passionate in our support of the Ulster team
- We are silent during kicks at goal by both teams
- We respect the match officials' decisions
- We drink responsibly
- We are mindful of our language, especially when there are children and young people near us
- We do not tolerate sectarian, homophobic or derogatory language
- We respect the opposition players, supporters, management and officials.

No they arent obliged to be role models just because you want them to be. No one is obliged to live up to your expectations.


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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 10:58 pm

That last point stand as an outsider; is this being viewed as a north south thing in a way. And a British irish thing ad a wider thing?

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 10:58 pm

The thing is I dont think Zebo and Murray did much wrong. Likewise Jackson and Olding.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 11:00 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:That last point stand as an outsider;  is this being viewed as a north south thing in a way. And a British irish thing ad a wider thing?

No its not a north south thing at all in my opinion. There is a similar amount of dopes rallying in Dublin as there were in Belfast.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 11:06 pm

Kinda guessed your point of view guns.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Don Alfonso on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 11:26 pm

I'm going to say I disagree and say that although it's not a North/South thing, it is very significant that it is a two-jurisdiction thing.

The press in the South are having a field day because all their Christmases have come at once. They have a celebrity r**e case, with two relatively posh grammar school boys that they can name, because they have been named up here. The accused in r**e cases down South can't be named. Now they can report a story with (relatively) famous faces involved and wallow in the salacious details. Furthermore, Olding and Jackson's reflect on the North - the culture in Ulster rugby (rather than wider Irish rugby - see Sin e for details), and Northern grammar schools (no reflection on Blackrock or Clongowes etc).

In addition, it seems to have been folded into the wider debate about repealing the 8th, and it is being used as to paint a wider picture of misogyny in Irish society. The issues have been morphed not only by protesters, but by the likes of Aodhan O'Riordan and Leo Varadhkar. AOR tweeted about it, and Leo had to be stopped from discussing it on a radio show, as part of a discussion about abortion. Each politician seemed to think they could talk freely about it because it was happening in Belfast - only an experienced radio presenter (in Leo's case) and the realisation that you could defame someone in another jurisdiction (in Aodhan's case), prevented them saying something intensely stupid. Both making hay to score political points about wider society in the abortion debate, and indeed about r*** trials generally. Whether it's fair  - or even relevant - to use to use two fellas who live under another legal system is up for debate.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 2:34 am

Don Alfonso wrote:I'm going to say I disagree and say that although it's not a North/South thing, it is very significant that it is a two-jurisdiction thing.

The press in the South are having a field day because all their Christmases have come at once. They have a celebrity r**e case, with two relatively posh grammar school boys that they can name, because they have been named up here. The accused in r**e cases down South can't be named. Now they can report a story with (relatively) famous faces involved and wallow in the salacious details. Furthermore, Olding and Jackson's reflect on the North - the culture in Ulster rugby (rather than wider Irish rugby - see Sin e for details), and Northern grammar schools (no reflection on Blackrock or Clongowes etc).

In addition, it seems to have been folded into the wider debate about repealing the 8th, and it is being used as to paint a wider picture of misogyny in Irish society. The issues have been morphed not only by protesters, but by the likes of Aodhan O'Riordan and Leo Varadhkar. AOR tweeted about it, and Leo had to be stopped from discussing it on a radio show, as part of a discussion about abortion. Each politician seemed to think they could talk freely about it because it was happening in Belfast - only an experienced radio presenter (in Leo's case) and the realisation that you could defame someone in another jurisdiction (in Aodhan's case), prevented them saying something intensely stupid. Both making hay to score political points about wider society in the abortion debate, and indeed about r*** trials generally. Whether it's fair  - or even relevant - to use to use two fellas who live under another legal system is up for debate.

I don’t think it’s a North South thing. It’s a privileged sport vs everyone else thing.  I doubt most people down South would know what a grammar school is let alone be able to name one.  Most wouldn’t know Jackson or Olding from a hole in the ground either, unless they follow rugby. Read up on the reaction of people when a rugby TV presenter, Dara O’Brien, made the mistake recently on TV of wondering if rugby had become the “people’s game’ in Ireland. He was laughed out of it by all and sundry.  Rugby remains a minority sport on the island and with its perceived tendencies to be a sport of the elite/rich, other people relish the chance to take it down a peg or two.
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 9:04 am

Its not really a minority sport anymore. Yeah GAA will always top the bill but rugby has a huge following now too. Rugby generally comes out in the top 10 viewership figures each year up there with the All Ireland finals. Also the privileged line is old and tired at this stage. Rugby has a better spread of demographics in Ireland than football for example.

Daire O'Brien wasn't laughed by all in sundry he was laughed off by GAA and football fans who can be quite tribal.

The press in the South love stories like this because they froth over #metoo #ibelieveher and other stories because they are highly divisive and therefore create lots of traffic. It has literally nothing to do with having a go at the North.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by munkian on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 9:38 am

Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:

I think they should never have been in such a situation in the first place. And I think Ulster Rugby are as much to blame as they have been involved with Ulster from a young age and should have educated them on their responsibilities as role models how to behave towards other people. As Kathy Sheridan wrote in her IT column, she has seen young women throw themselves at Munster players and they managed to not take advantage.

I guess Kathy Sheridan wasn't there when Zebo and Murray met a girl in a chipper and brought back to their hotel for a good time. What a daft thing to say anyway, all rugby players to some extent have women throwing themselves at them fairly regularly.

They learned their lesson. Both settled down now and learned the error of their ways. Zebo has 2 kids. Murray a steady girlfriend.

Being a role model doesn't make you a good rugby player, if it did Peter McVerry would have over 100 caps for Ireland. I don't see why rugby players should have to be role models either, they have the same rights as everyone else. They might get extra sponsorship for playing nice but that's their choice.

What in the name of god are you going on about if someone is good, they will be a good rugby player?  
Whether sports people like it or not, they are role models. The sports sell them as good role models. This is what Ulster Rugby expect of their fans.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/branch/values.php#.Ws43OWaZPMU
VALUES

Ulster Rugby values and traditions work to make Kingspan Stadium one of the best places in Europe to watch live rugby.
We are proud that a night at the home of Ulster Rugby is a safe, enjoyable, inclusive experience for people of all ages. Here are our Ulster Rugby values and we ask all our fans to support them throughout the season:

- We are passionate in our support of the Ulster team
- We are silent during kicks at goal by both teams
- We respect the match officials' decisions
- We drink responsibly
- We are mindful of our language, especially when there are children and young people near us
- We do not tolerate sectarian, homophobic or derogatory language
- We respect the opposition players, supporters, management and officials.

I think success brings in idiots mind.

Last time I went to see  Ulster play us in Newportone of their travelling fans -

Called the barmaid an 'English c*nt' because she asked him to get in queue.
Called me an 'English c*nt' for telling him to behave.
He then called me a 'poof' when I didn't want to fight him

Charming lad with a poor grasp of geography.
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 9:42 am

Look every team/place has its bad eggs. That story doesn't prove anything really. I can tell you stories of people being really nice to me in Belfast and in Cardiff etc.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by munkian on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 9:48 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Look every team/place has its bad eggs. That story doesn't prove anything really. I can tell you stories of people being really nice to me in Belfast and in Cardiff etc.

They do, its just the only unpleasant incident I've ever had attending a rugby match.

Also, using 'bad egg' when describing a misogynistic racist homophobe is pretty light Shocked
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 10:01 am

munkian wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Look every team/place has its bad eggs. That story doesn't prove anything really. I can tell you stories of people being really nice to me in Belfast and in Cardiff etc.

They do, its just the only unpleasant incident I've ever had attending a rugby match.

Also, using 'bad egg' when describing a misogynistic racist homophobe  is pretty light Shocked

Well I wasn't there so I'm only party to the story from your POV so I cant comment on whether the individual was any of those things.

The only obnoxious fan I can ever remember encountering was an English fan but I still rate the English fans as the best traveling rugby supporters in the world.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 10:47 am

Ah cheers for the responses. Quite similar to a lot of English views on rugby then which can be tied up with class and perceptions.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Don Alfonso on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 10:51 am

Pot Hale wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:I'm going to say I disagree and say that although it's not a North/South thing, it is very significant that it is a two-jurisdiction thing.

The press in the South are having a field day because all their Christmases have come at once. They have a celebrity r**e case, with two relatively posh grammar school boys that they can name, because they have been named up here. The accused in r**e cases down South can't be named. Now they can report a story with (relatively) famous faces involved and wallow in the salacious details. Furthermore, Olding and Jackson's reflect on the North - the culture in Ulster rugby (rather than wider Irish rugby - see Sin e for details), and Northern grammar schools (no reflection on Blackrock or Clongowes etc).

In addition, it seems to have been folded into the wider debate about repealing the 8th, and it is being used as to paint a wider picture of misogyny in Irish society. The issues have been morphed not only by protesters, but by the likes of Aodhan O'Riordan and Leo Varadhkar. AOR tweeted about it, and Leo had to be stopped from discussing it on a radio show, as part of a discussion about abortion. Each politician seemed to think they could talk freely about it because it was happening in Belfast - only an experienced radio presenter (in Leo's case) and the realisation that you could defame someone in another jurisdiction (in Aodhan's case), prevented them saying something intensely stupid. Both making hay to score political points about wider society in the abortion debate, and indeed about r*** trials generally. Whether it's fair  - or even relevant - to use to use two fellas who live under another legal system is up for debate.

I don’t think it’s a North South thing. It’s a privileged sport vs everyone else thing.  I doubt most people down South would know what a grammar school is let alone be able to name one.  Most wouldn’t know Jackson or Olding from a hole in the ground either, unless they follow rugby. Read up on the reaction of people when a rugby TV presenter, Dara O’Brien, made the mistake recently on TV of wondering if rugby had become the “people’s game’ in Ireland.  He was laughed out of it by all and sundry.  Rugby remains a minority sport on the island and with its perceived tendencies to be a sport of the elite/rich, other people relish the chance to take it down a peg or two.  

None of that changes the Southern media's glee at being able to name r**e suspects or being used as fodder for an argument about abortion in the South, which were my substantive points,.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Standulstermen on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 11:45 am

Apologies, only saw the question and rather than regurgitate a response its pretty much what Don says.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by marty2086 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 12:14 pm

So the Indo have chased Bank of Ireland for a statement

As a sponsor of Ulster Rugby, Bank of Ireland is highly concerned regarding the serious behaviour and conduct issues which have emerged as a result of the recent high profile trial,

The Bank has formally conveyed these concerns to the CEO of Ulster Rugby.

It is of paramount importance to Bank of Ireland that our sponsorship activity aligns with and supports our core values, and reflects positively on Bank of Ireland through association.

We understand that an internal review is underway. We expect this review to be robust, to fully address the issues raised, and that decisions will be taken – and policies and protocols be put in place – that fully address the issues that have arisen.

Given that a review is underway, we won’t comment further on this issue at this time.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 12:18 pm

Haven't posted here for a while as some may have noticed.

Can I just say this thread has become a monumental diatribe of tedium as people go round and round in ever decreasing circles.

Glad I got that off my chest - I'll not revisit for the simple reason I have life - some here need to get one as well !

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Pot Hale on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 1:55 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:

None of that changes the Southern media's glee at being able to name r**e suspects or being used as fodder for an argument about abortion in the South, which were my substantive points,.

Fair enough.
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 2:22 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Haven't posted here for a while as some may have noticed.

Can I just say this thread has become a monumental diatribe of tedium as people go round and round in ever decreasing circles.

Glad I got that off my chest - I'll not revisit for the simple reason I have life - some here need to get one as well !

No hadn't noticed. boxing

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 2:31 pm

Meanwhile in Munster:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/school-launches-investigation-after-sexual-assault-list-posted-in-boys-toilets-36800398.html

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Pete330v2 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 2:42 pm

marty2086 wrote:So the Indo have chased Bank of Ireland for a statement

As a sponsor of Ulster Rugby, Bank of Ireland is highly concerned regarding the serious behaviour and conduct issues which have emerged as a result of the recent high profile trial,

The Bank has formally conveyed these concerns to the CEO of Ulster Rugby.

It is of paramount importance to Bank of Ireland that our sponsorship activity aligns with and supports our core values, and reflects positively on Bank of Ireland through association.

We understand that an internal review is underway. We expect this review to be robust, to fully address the issues raised, and that decisions will be taken – and policies and protocols be put in place – that fully address the issues that have arisen.

Given that a review is underway, we won’t comment further on this issue at this time.

So bank comment on moral issues now? That's like Gary Glitter complaining about the school curriculum content.

That being said, that wording makes it seem like they're expecting policies put in place as opposed to sackings.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by clivemcl on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 2:46 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Meanwhile in Munster:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/school-launches-investigation-after-sexual-assault-list-posted-in-boys-toilets-36800398.html

They should all have their right to future employment removed!

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Sin é on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 3:24 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Meanwhile in Munster:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/school-launches-investigation-after-sexual-assault-list-posted-in-boys-toilets-36800398.html

That is exactly the reason why the behaviour of those rugby lads needs to be publicly disciplined. School kids don't need role models like that.
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Sin é on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 3:31 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:
marty2086 wrote:So the Indo have chased Bank of Ireland for a statement

As a sponsor of Ulster Rugby, Bank of Ireland is highly concerned regarding the serious behaviour and conduct issues which have emerged as a result of the recent high profile trial,

The Bank has formally conveyed these concerns to the CEO of Ulster Rugby.

It is of paramount importance to Bank of Ireland that our sponsorship activity aligns with and supports our core values, and reflects positively on Bank of Ireland through association.

We understand that an internal review is underway. We expect this review to be robust, to fully address the issues raised, and that decisions will be taken – and policies and protocols be put in place – that fully address the issues that have arisen.

Given that a review is underway, we won’t comment further on this issue at this time.

So bank comment on moral issues now? That's like Gary Glitter complaining about the school curriculum content.

That being said, that wording makes it seem like they're expecting policies put in place as opposed to sackings.

I've seen elsewhere that BOI are not happy and will pull all BOI sponsorship of rugby (thats Munster & Leinster as well).

BOI's new CEO is a woman and very big on gender equality.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/bank-of-ireland-commits-to-gender-equality-in-executive-hires-by-2021-1.3455610

Ms McDonagh was speaking at the launch of the bank’s “responsible business report”, which details its charity donations, sponsorship schemes and contributions to the Irish economy.

Bearing in mind the reputation banking has, why would it want to further tarnish its imagine by remaining hitched to rugby?
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 3:52 pm

Sin é wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Meanwhile in Munster:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/school-launches-investigation-after-sexual-assault-list-posted-in-boys-toilets-36800398.html

That is exactly the reason why the behaviour of those rugby lads needs to be publicly disciplined. School kids don't need role models like that.

Rugby players aren't obliged to be their role models. I'd say their parents or their teachers hold that obligation.

You seem to be suggesting the Ulster guys are somehow at least partially responsible for the behaviour of these kids, is that right?

Anyway I thought this sort of stuff didn't happen in Munster?


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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 3:54 pm

Sin é wrote:

Bearing in mind the reputation banking has, why would it want to further tarnish its imagine by remaining hitched to rugby?

Because rugby has a global audience which means global exposure for BOI. All sports have their issues.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by munkian on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 4:00 pm

The little roide is trying to get his legal expenses back - who would end up paying for this ? Is it the courts ?
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