Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

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Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Hazel Sapling on Wed 04 Apr 2018, 1:16 pm

First topic message reminder :

What is the appropriate way forward for Ulster?

Bring Jackson and Olding Back - They were found not guilt and have been punished far enough through reputational damage and a year's suspension

Look to move Olding and Jackson on for a period of time before bringing them back in a couple of seasons - They have brought damage to the Ulster brand and need to mature. This has to be done outside the comfort of Belfast

Terminate/buyout contracts and banish them - They crossed a line too far and they will never play for Ulster again

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 4:01 pm

munkian wrote:The little roide is trying to get his legal expenses back - who would end up paying for this ? Is it the courts ?

Would you like to pay £100,000.00 in legal expenses for something you didn't do?

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by munkian on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 4:03 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
munkian wrote:The little roide is trying to get his legal expenses back - who would end up paying for this ? Is it the courts ?

Would you like to pay £100,000.00 in legal expenses for something you didn't do?

Answering a question with a question ?
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 4:10 pm

munkian wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
munkian wrote:The little roide is trying to get his legal expenses back - who would end up paying for this ? Is it the courts ?

Would you like to pay £100,000.00 in legal expenses for something you didn't do?

Answering a question with a question ?

Is that not what you just did too?

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 4:10 pm

A role model is someone in a position or a role that someone aspires to. It's not a choice.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by munkian on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 4:11 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
munkian wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
munkian wrote:The little roide is trying to get his legal expenses back - who would end up paying for this ? Is it the courts ?

Would you like to pay £100,000.00 in legal expenses for something you didn't do?

Answering a question with a question ?

Is that not what you just did too?

A simple 'I don't know' would have sufficed.

Which part of my question implied judgement on what he was doing ?
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Pete330v2 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 4:16 pm

munkian wrote:The little roide is trying to get his legal expenses back - who would end up paying for this ? Is it the courts ?

Well as this trial has broken his bank account and being an innocent man I'd say he's entitled to something back.
Who pays? Not the prosecution team that for sure, they'll keep every penny in their bank accounts.
It down to the taxpayer.

What's a little roide?

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 4:17 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:A role model is someone in a position or a role that someone aspires to. It's not a choice.

Of course it is a choice. A role model is a person looked to by others as an example to be imitated. If you by choice aren't someone that many people look up to then you probably aren't going to be considered a role model. Unless there is a clause in their contract that states they must aspire to being role models then they absolutely aren't obliged to be anything other than rugby players with the same rights as everyone else.

The way I see it as long as you aren't breaking any laws no one is obliged to be exactly what society expects of them however, you will probably live a more chaotic existence if you don't conform somewhat.


Last edited by Collapse2005 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 4:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by munkian on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 4:19 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:
munkian wrote:The little roide is trying to get his legal expenses back - who would end up paying for this ? Is it the courts ?

Well as this trial has broken his bank account and being an innocent man I'd say he's entitled to something back.
Who pays? Not the prosecution team that for sure, they'll keep every penny in their bank accounts.
It down to the taxpayer.

What's a little roide?

A ride
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 4:38 pm

No guns. A role model is in a position someone aspires to be. So for instance a bank manager is likely to be a role model for someone. Rugby will be role models to anyone wanting to become a rugby player etc etc.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by 21st Century Schizoid Man on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 5:32 pm

A lady from Belfast texted 5 Live today (about 8.30 this am). She said her daughters attended a grammar school that one of the accused formerly attended. Her daughters informed her that those (males) playing rugby were feted at the school and acted arrogantly and entitled. Her point was that this does not bode well for Ulster Rugby if these schools are their natural pool of future resources.
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 5:55 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:No guns. A role model is in a position someone aspires to be. So for instance a bank manager is likely to be a role model for someone. Rugby will be role models to anyone wanting to become a rugby player etc etc.

Eh no it isn't. Just because you are in a privileged position doesn't mean by default you are a role model, all that means is that you more than likely have more influence than most people and therefore in a better position to be a role model if you wish.

All a role model is is someone that others aspire to be like. If you aren't someone that people aspire to be like you aren't a role model.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 6:03 pm

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:A lady from Belfast texted 5 Live today (about 8.30 this am).   She said her daughters attended a grammar school that one of the accused formerly attended.   Her daughters informed her that those (males) playing rugby were feted at the school and acted arrogantly and entitled.   Her point was that this does not bode well for Ulster Rugby if these schools are their natural  pool of future resources.  

Sounds like 5 live cracked the case.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 6:10 pm

Nearly there. So you agree that you don't have the choice over whether you're a role model or not. These guys are role models whether they like it or not. Terrible role models.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by The Great Aukster on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 10:01 pm

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:A lady from Belfast texted 5 Live today (about 8.30 this am).   She said her daughters attended a grammar school that one of the accused formerly attended.   Her daughters informed her that those (males) playing rugby were feted at the school and acted arrogantly and entitled.   Her point was that this does not bode well for Ulster Rugby if these schools are their natural  pool of future resources.  
Sounds exactly like every rugby school in Ulster and it has always been thus.
Another term for arrogance could be 'self-confidence', and most psychologists would consider that an essential ingredient of success - now that really wouldn't bode well for Ulster in the future.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Don Alfonso on Fri 13 Apr 2018, 8:25 am

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:A lady from Belfast texted 5 Live today (about 8.30 this am).   She said her daughters attended a grammar school that one of the accused formerly attended.   Her daughters informed her that those (males) playing rugby were feted at the school and acted arrogantly and entitled.   Her point was that this does not bode well for Ulster Rugby if these schools are their natural  pool of future resources.  

OMG!! Seriously?!? We need to do something!! ASAP!!

I also heard some random guy on a radio phone-in say something about how immigrants were taking all our jobs! So many serious issues highlighted by anonymous contributions to radio programmes!!

Honestly, Ulster rugby has enough real issues to be concerned about.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Standulstermen on Fri 13 Apr 2018, 8:47 am

Don Alfonso wrote:
21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:A lady from Belfast texted 5 Live today (about 8.30 this am).   She said her daughters attended a grammar school that one of the accused formerly attended.   Her daughters informed her that those (males) playing rugby were feted at the school and acted arrogantly and entitled.   Her point was that this does not bode well for Ulster Rugby if these schools are their natural  pool of future resources.  

OMG!! Seriously?!? We need to do something!! ASAP!!

I also heard some random guy on a radio phone-in say something about how immigrants were taking all our jobs! So many serious issues highlighted by anonymous contributions to radio programmes!!

Honestly, Ulster rugby has enough real issues to be concerned about.

i believe in some schools in America too the football players sometimes are lauded. I think they are called yocks or jocks (it might be a soft J).

On the role model thing. I would agree it isnt down to them whether they are role models therefore it cant be held against them. It says more about a parent (i give children a by ball) that they expect 23 year olds to be well rounded people. I was a Muppet at 23 and in particular regarding women and booze. I would honestly say it took a house, a marriage and my first child before i properly got to grips with the latter (in terms of balance). If my son idealises a sportsman (whilst i smile and nod) i am a bigger influence in his life and i casually and nicely remind him that they kick or throw a ball about. Thats my job as a parent. Again im not absolving these lads. They need to pay a penance. Lets be proportionate though

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 13 Apr 2018, 9:06 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nearly there. So you agree that you don't have the choice over whether you're a role model or not. These guys are role models whether they like it or not. Terrible role models.

Jesus dude if you read all my posts I keep repeating that being a role model is a choice. No one has to be or don anything just because you want them to. You're not that important.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by munkian on Fri 13 Apr 2018, 9:31 am

Ulster Rugby sponsor 'highly concerned' after r*** trial
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 13 Apr 2018, 9:33 am

And you're wrong. You don't get to choose whether you're a role model or not it's based on someone else aspiring to be you or the line of work you're in etc. These guys are role models like it or not.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Intotouch on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 12:08 am

Wasn't Trevor Brennan banned from playing rugby in Ireland for life for punching a man in the face who had shouted insults at him from the stand? I believe the argument to justify banning him for life was that it was to show what behaviour would never be tolerated in the sport. To not ban him for life would have been to show some tolerance towards a man who they saw as being a role model for young rugby players and an example for them to follow.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by marty2086 on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 12:14 am

Intotouch wrote:Wasn't Trevor Brennan banned from playing rugby in Ireland for life for punching a man in the face who had shouted insults at him from the stand? I believe the argument to justify banning him for life was that it was to show what behaviour would never be tolerated in the sport. To not ban him for life would have been to show some tolerance towards a man who they saw as being a role model for young rugby players and an example for them to follow.

No, Brennan was banned by ERC for attacking a fan in the stands. A fan who only Brennan heard shout abuse and who gave differing accounts of what was shouted at him

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by catchweight on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 12:15 am

Jackson and Olding have been sacked from Ulster Rugby as I understand it.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by clivemcl on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 12:20 am

I've no idea what grounds they are using to justify this if true.
If it's their demeaning/derogatory language against females, then Gilroy has equal guilt.

If not the messages, is it the alcohol consumption? Surely they can't react to the alleged victims claims since the court system has dealt with that.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Intotouch on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 12:24 am

marty2086 wrote:
Intotouch wrote:Wasn't Trevor Brennan banned from playing rugby in Ireland for life for punching a man in the face who had shouted insults at him from the stand? I believe the argument to justify banning him for life was that it was to show what behaviour would never be tolerated in the sport. To not ban him for life would have been to show some tolerance towards a man who they saw as being a role model for young rugby players and an example for them to follow.

No, Brennan was banned by ERC for attacking a fan in the stands. A fan who only Brennan heard shout abuse and who gave differing accounts of what was shouted at him

I remember seeing the footage. Provocation or not which do you think is more acceptable behaviour?

Also is there truth in what I read saying that one of them also made a video and took photos of the "gang bang" and shared them with another?

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by clivemcl on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 12:27 am

Intotouch wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Intotouch wrote:Wasn't Trevor Brennan banned from playing rugby in Ireland for life for punching a man in the face who had shouted insults at him from the stand? I believe the argument to justify banning him for life was that it was to show what behaviour would never be tolerated in the sport. To not ban him for life would have been to show some tolerance towards a man who they saw as being a role model for young rugby players and an example for them to follow.

No, Brennan was banned by ERC for attacking a fan in the stands. A fan who only Brennan heard shout abuse and who gave differing accounts of what was shouted at him

I remember seeing the footage. Provocation or not which do you think is more acceptable behaviour?

Also is there truth in what I read saying that one of them also made a video and took photos of the "gang bang" and shared them with another?

You have misread. And herein lies the problem with the trial by media. People are not careful or considered or level headed.

You have just stated something entirely fabricated because you couldn't be bothered to properly read the news yourself.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Pot Hale on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 12:28 am

Intotouch wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Intotouch wrote:Wasn't Trevor Brennan banned from playing rugby in Ireland for life for punching a man in the face who had shouted insults at him from the stand? I believe the argument to justify banning him for life was that it was to show what behaviour would never be tolerated in the sport. To not ban him for life would have been to show some tolerance towards a man who they saw as being a role model for young rugby players and an example for them to follow.

No, Brennan was banned by ERC for attacking a fan in the stands. A fan who only Brennan heard shout abuse and who gave differing accounts of what was shouted at him

I remember seeing the footage. Provocation or not which do you think is more acceptable behaviour?

Also is there truth in what I read saying that one of them also made a video and took photos of the "gang bang" and shared them with another?

No, not true. it was an unrelated porn clip downloaded from net.
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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by catchweight on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 12:29 am

Their behaviour clearly brought the club into disrepute. I would say the grounds for sacking them are there.

There was also apparently significant pressure from sponsors to sack them.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Intotouch on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 1:33 am

"how we play is who we are" is the motto of one of their sponsors (seriously) so yes, I'm sure there was pressure from the sponsors to sack them from sponsors.




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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by catchweight on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 1:38 am

I think it is the correct move from Ulster.

I dont think they could have credibly kept the pair on with integrity. It would cast a shadow over the club.


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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Standulstermen on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 2:15 am

No more a shadow than getting rid of innocent men. That said the lack of talk from Jackson or Olding suggests they are happy with the $$$$ involved.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Pete330v2 on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 6:50 am

Paddy and Stu had been checking out offers from abroad before the trial was over. I'd been told Paddy definately wanted away so we don't know who's choice it's been yet.

Lets hope we have some good signings lined up to sweeten the deal.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by clivemcl on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 7:36 am

Pete330v2 wrote:Paddy and Stu had been checking out offers from abroad before the trial was over. I'd been told Paddy definately wanted away so we don't know who's choice it's been yet.

Lets hope we have some good signings lined up to sweeten the deal.

I would say a deal has been struck Pete that includes it appearing amicable. I don't reckon either player will say anything about the club.

The players will be given enough money to make them leave 'happy', at least in front of cameras.

This also has the benefit of the club and IRFU not having to explain any reasoning for their departure - since they weren't 'sacked' per se.

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

Post by Standulstermen on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 7:56 am

Can we ditch this thread now and move to the other one

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Re: Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

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