Ulster - Appropriate Way Forward

by Hazel Sapling Wed 04 Apr 2018, 1:16 pm

First topic message reminder :

What is the appropriate way forward for Ulster?

Bring Jackson and Olding Back - They were found not guilt and have been punished far enough through reputational damage and a year's suspension

Look to move Olding and Jackson on for a period of time before bringing them back in a couple of seasons - They have brought damage to the Ulster brand and need to mature. This has to be done outside the comfort of Belfast

Terminate/buyout contracts and banish them - They crossed a line too far and they will never play for Ulster again

by Monkeyan Fri 06 Apr 2018, 11:48 am

In the latest instalment of virtue signalling, I see that Conall McDevitt has made a show of handing back his season ticket. Apparently sending a few questionable text messages is worse than siphoning off £50k of taxpayers' money and giving it to your wife's business.

by Pete330v2 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 11:54 am

marty2086 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:.surprised the amount fo faith an backing some of you have for these players.

Sorry what's your point? They've been found not guilty, there's no proof they've broken any laws.

While they may have been prats, they deserve the opportunity at redemption. If they don't see the error of their ways I'm happy for them to be shown the door but until that time comes, everyone should have a second chance and not led to a well by a hysterical crowd who don't know/care/fathom the facts of it all

My sentiments exactly but put across better than I could.

It's become a witch hunt and there are far too many willing to leap on any bandwagon if it gives them the chance to act offended even if they don't know exactly what they're being offended at. Idiots!!

by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 11:54 am

It was a point of view marty that feminism and demonstrations about this are bad and misguided! Through a lot of the language used.admittedly I could have got the wrong end of the stick. I'm sure.most people on here are feminists anyway.

by Pete330v2 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 11:55 am

Monkeyan wrote:In the latest instalment of virtue signalling, I see that Conall McDevitt has made a show of handing back his season ticket. Apparently sending a few questionable text messages is worse than siphoning off £50k of taxpayers' money and giving it to your wife's business.

I'd prefer it if actual criminals did stay away from Ulster Rugby to be honest, proven criminals like Conall.

by marty2086 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 11:56 am

Monkeyan wrote:In the latest instalment of virtue signalling, I see that Conall McDevitt has made a show of handing back his season ticket. Apparently sending a few questionable text messages is worse than siphoning off £50k of taxpayers' money and giving it to your wife's business.

I like Conall as he's usually well spoken and considered on matters, he was thrown under the bus by certain people for their own gain over that whole issue and it was misrepresented publically, so you think he'd have sympathy with those involved

by marty2086 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 11:57 am

Pete330v2 wrote:
Monkeyan wrote:In the latest instalment of virtue signalling, I see that Conall McDevitt has made a show of handing back his season ticket. Apparently sending a few questionable text messages is worse than siphoning off £50k of taxpayers' money and giving it to your wife's business.

I'd prefer it if actual criminals did stay away from Ulster Rugby to be honest, proven criminals like Conall.

Sorry Pete but you might want to rethink calling people criminals who aren't actually criminals, you know like you were complaining about folks doing with the players

by Pete330v2 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 1:31 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:
Monkeyan wrote:In the latest instalment of virtue signalling, I see that Conall McDevitt has made a show of handing back his season ticket. Apparently sending a few questionable text messages is worse than siphoning off £50k of taxpayers' money and giving it to your wife's business.

I'd prefer it if actual criminals did stay away from Ulster Rugby to be honest, proven criminals like Conall.

Sorry Pete but you might want to rethink calling people criminals who aren't actually criminals, you know like you were complaining about folks doing with the players

I was being facetious Marty although I tend to refer to to all our 'politicians' as criminals whether they've been forced to resign or not.

by the-goon Fri 06 Apr 2018, 1:32 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:.surprised the amount fo faith an backing some of you have for these players.

Defending innocent men, in the face of a witch hunt, how dare you all. The moral and pure 7 1/2, who is a better person than you, as spoken and is not impressed.

by Pot Hale Fri 06 Apr 2018, 1:37 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:Speaking of fools, I see Anna Nolan has run a Gofundme page to raise funds for an add in the Belfast Telegragh calling for PJ and SO to never represent Ulster or Ireland again. She raised the necessary £2000 with a little spare change left over which I'm sure she'll donate to some LGBT charity. The world is doomed when people like this exist.

Seriously?

by marty2086 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 1:48 pm

Paddy Jackson wrote:I am ashamed that a young woman who was a visitor to my home left in a distressed state. This was never my intention and I will always regret the events of that evening.

I am also truly sorry for engaging in a WhatsApp group chat which was degrading and offensive and I apologise unreservedly for this.

The criticism of my behaviour is fully justified and I know I have betrayed the values of my family and those of the wider public.

Following the trial I have taken time to reflect with my family on the values that were such an integral part of my upbringing, the most important of which is respect. My departure from these values has caused understandable public anger and I am resolutely committed to returning to those principles.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 2:40 pm

Blind faith in some cases goon. But more than that is the words to talk down to women about the case or anyone who disagrees.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 2:41 pm

If the point is appropriate ways forward ignoring it and dismissing those with concerns ain't going to make it go away simply question motives.

by marty2086 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 2:46 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Blind faith in some cases goon. But more than that is the words to talk down to women about the case or anyone who disagrees.

Blind faith?

Seriously?

THEY WERE FOUND NOT GUILTY!!

That's not blind faith it's out there in the open

Those who are demanding they be sacked, are asking for the law to be broken because they disagree with comments that were made outside of the place of work. If I disagree with their comments should I be at their place of work demanding they be sacked?

by geoff999rugby Fri 06 Apr 2018, 3:06 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:.surprised the amount fo faith an backing some of you have for these players.

7 1/2 you are making the same mistake as 'Sin e' re the view of many of us.
If I may quote myself from the previous thread

This is where you continue to miss read what people here are saying.
No one that I can see is defending their actions.
What people are saying is the trial is over the players were found not guilty and should stay or go solely based upon what is in their legal signed contracts.

Instead we have a mob rule, hate filled, largely ignorant social media campaign going on to force them out.
In addition we have a spineless IRFU and Ulster CEO who appear to be listening to this.
It is these facts that are unacceptable not the action themselves

by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 3:13 pm

Blinds faith in the sense some can't see they've done any hinges wrong. Separate to blind faith in the justice system marty. You would surely have to acknowledge a fair few people are just dismissing it as a case of here not guilty so nothing needs to be done or seen to be done? It's separate to amy court case.

by marty2086 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 3:16 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Blinds faith in the sense some can't see they've done any hinges wrong. Separate to blind faith in the justice system marty. You would surely have to acknowledge a fair few people are just dismissing it as a case of here not guilty so nothing needs to be done or seen to be done? It's separate to amy court case.

Really? So who has said that?

by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 3:16 pm

Don't think I'm misreading that geoff. I understand your point on contracts being broken and with these sort of this it tends to be a bit wishy washy in terms of damaging the brand etc. You'd note I said first off they should remain in place but I felt that the club needed to be seen to confront the issue and deal with it rationally and compassionately as well. I don't think any demonstrations should be out into a box of mob rule but by discussion on what could be done.

by Monkeyan Fri 06 Apr 2018, 3:23 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Blinds faith in the sense some can't see they've done any hinges wrong. Separate to blind faith in the justice system marty. You would surely have to acknowledge a fair few people are just dismissing it as a case of here not guilty so nothing needs to be done or seen to be done? It's separate to amy court case.

I think we've all acknowledged that the content of the text messages was pretty unpleasant. However, sending a rude text message to a friend or group of friends is hardly grounds for dismissal. If they had posted such comments on an open forum the argument would be different, but these were private messages between a small group that only became public knowledge because of the trial. The existence of the texts may show Jackson, Olding and Gilroy to be not the sort of guys you'd want dating your daughter, but you can't sack someone for being a bit of a cad.

by geoff999rugby Fri 06 Apr 2018, 3:24 pm

But most of us do think they have done something wrong and should receive an appropriate level of punishment.
Some would say a year not playing is enough.
However to claim, as is being claimed, they should never play in Ireland is way over the top.
They were found not guilty and everything I have heard suggests to me it was not a close call and whether or not the PPS
should have even brought the case is questionable

As for Gilroy it should be a wrap over the knuckles and that is - anything more is absurd.
Solomona just got 4 weeks for being homophobic, Folau is going around saying the same and not even being disciplined.
Far worse than a one liner form Gilroy in a private message

by Pete330v2 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 3:40 pm

What's blind is following the hashtag, social media groups who are as illinformed as they are deluded with the entire case. They see only what they want to see and are similar to the anti-brexit members of the public who protested because they didn't like the outcome. These femenist groups simply want to completely ignore everything that Geoff and Marty have just pointed out, that would destroy their witch hunt. It's utterly vile that these guys who have already had their lifes destroyed should have to face the mob like this. Yes they made questionable lifestyle choices and said things they shouldn't have but who hasn't? Everyone deserves a chance to prove that a leopard can change it's spots.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 3:43 pm

And I'd never call for those things again. I'm just pleased they don't play for a club of mine so I don't have to begrudgingly accept they're there. I repeat though I do think the club needs to communicate with protesters and not right them off as a bunch of crazies.

If you read the stuff I put about basteraud and Marler on 2 separate issues you'll know how I feel about solomona s slap on the wrist. It's not happy ad a clue!

by marty2086 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 3:53 pm

And yet every club probably has one, didn't Paul Doran-Jones and Haskell get expelled from school for videoing a threesome? Seem to remember them joking about it in a video last year, deafening silence thanks to no one pointing it out to the hysterical masses

Folau condemning people to hell, no protests

I haven't seen many of the outraged actually being outraged at the status of the womens game within Ulster either but no ones led them to the water there yet so they can't be outraged

by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 4:07 pm

Separate issues of course. And I've seen people putting the boot into them online. And of course defending them for free speech etc etc

by marty2086 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 4:18 pm

How are they separate issues? All are to do with issues of respect and free speech

Solomona and Bastareaud made their comments while representing their clubs, yet not one person has claimed they should be sacked

by Standulstermen Fri 06 Apr 2018, 4:52 pm

An appropriate punishment is along the lines that after being fully reinstated the players should be made to work helping to educate young rugby players about the levels of professionalism required at the top of the game and how their attitude towards women in how they spoke was wrong. They could work with womans groups if any would accept the help and work within their status as Ulster and Ireland players to promote the womans game.

Im probably not explaining it well but a sort of public service highlighting where they went wrong (in terms of the whatsapp attitude) would be sufficient. As i said previously im not comfortable with guilty men representing Ulster but im equally concerned about innocent men not being allowed to represent Ulster

by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 5:13 pm

I agree with that ulster.

Separate marty as you want to talk on them rather than ulster. Personally i would be calling on folou to be sacked.

by marty2086 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 5:23 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I agree with that ulster.

Separate marty as you want to talk on them rather than ulster. Personally i would be calling on folou to be sacked.

No, Im pointing out the differing attitudes to it all, private conversations see people calling for players to be sacked whereas comments made on social media don't nor do comments made while on the job that amount to hate speech

Also sacking Folau would be illegal given it's his religious belief

I've clearly said previously Ulster shoulder some of the responsibility for the mess, as they allowed the culture that created their attitudes to exist

by Pete330v2 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 5:44 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I agree with that ulster.

Separate marty as you want to talk on them rather than ulster. Personally i would be calling on folou to be sacked.

Folau's comments come from his religious beliefs. It's a doctrine that should be very familiar with a lot of people in this country as it's preached in a number of divisions of the church. Even if it were just an opinion I'll always believe that people should be entitled to them without persecution just as those who hold opposing view should receive no persecution for what they believe in. To bury people who have different views or have made offensive comments is burying our heads in the sand about the issues instead of meeting them head on and dealing with them at the root cause. A little like how firing the Ulster lads will do nothing to address a culture that needs fixing.

by Kingshu Fri 06 Apr 2018, 5:58 pm

Tolerance is used a lot nowadays
"the ability or willingness to tolerate the existence of opinions or behaviour that one dislikes or disagrees with."
Not practised alot.
71/2 calling for Folou to be sacked for expressing his religious views. Wheres the tolerance in that?
You may like me dislike and disagree with them, but he is entiltled to have them. No law was broken. So we can tolerate them. He may dislike homosexuality but he has to also tolerate it. Its a two way street.

For J and O may not like their actions but there is no tolerance shown here.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 6:08 pm

Because he's a bloody idiot. Tattoos. Dyed hair. But he doesn't like gay people. Massive hypocrite and a shame as he's probably the best full back in the world. Folou is scum.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 06 Apr 2018, 6:39 pm

I’m confused with the Falou thing. The bible kind of backs up his comments, and he is not alone in what he has said. Devout people of most religions seem to have similar view points. So I assume most people who are against his comments are not religious. So surely Hell should not be a worry to them. “Oh no this bloke thinks someone I don’t believe in will send me to a place I don’t believe in”

by clivemcl Fri 06 Apr 2018, 6:49 pm

I didn't know how to word my thoughts, but ScarletSpiderman did it pretty well.

Some christians disagree though. Not many, but some do. So they might be more justified in disagreeing with him. But still, they would have to concede he is only taking his bible literally.

And that's the thing. People react to it as if he said 'they deserve to go to hell' like it's an opinion of his. He didn't say this, he just said what his bible states - the black and white interpretation. And i guess that's freedom of speech. The other misconception is that these people go and stand on a soapboxes in the street saying this. Also not true of Folau in this case. He honestly gave the answer of his religion in response to a direct question. Somebody perhaps goading/trolling him. He said nothing that implied he had any personal disdain towards homosexuals, merely that his religion dictates their lifestyle is incompatible with salvation.

But anyway... whats this to do with Ulster?

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 06 Apr 2018, 6:58 pm

Clive, you actually tidied up what I wanted to say but couldn’t word myself. But on the tattooed thing, isn’t that a no-go for some religions (i believe Jews aren’t allowed them?). Ain’t religion, sexuality, and gender a minefeild nowadays. I think there is a pious arguement to being pro/con to nearly every side of them.

by clivemcl Fri 06 Apr 2018, 7:04 pm

I think its a funny one, people need to differentiate between religious doctrine and personal hate speech.
Either that or ban religious freedoms.

But from what I've read it is simply unreasonable to have everone call Folau 'homophobic'. He has not expressed any opinion about homosexual people, nor has he discriminated against them in any way. He simply echoed his doctrinal faith.

Will it soon be a hate crime or homophobic to read certain scriptural verses?

I guess some would argue it should be.

But it's funny, I read a tweet saying 'gladly Folau's views are not the views reflected in world rugby'? I was like 'ummm so world rugby think homosexuals DO go to heaven? I didn't think world rugby would be so unanimous never mind even comment on religious matters Headscratch

'.

by clivemcl Fri 06 Apr 2018, 7:08 pm

Anyway, I see now Jackson has made a statement of regret.

I wonder, if the boys have genuine remorse. Is there anything to be said for them actually having more impact as 'role models' if they were seen to have turned their attitudes around, and were happy to spend the remainder of their contracts attending functions that were open and educational towards young people and their attitudes.

I have to say, as a father, I think my kids would get more from watching two guys talk about their mistakes and how it nearly destroyed them and how they were stupid and wrong, compared with what my kids would learn if we never heard from the pair of them again.

I'd have much rather seen those apologies done in the flesh, on camera and less read off a page like Olding's was.

People need to hear and feel it to gauge how genuine or not it may be.

by Pete330v2 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 8:04 pm

clivemcl wrote:Anyway, I see now Jackson has made a statement of regret.

I wonder, if the boys have genuine remorse. Is there anything to be said for them actually having more impact as 'role models' if they were seen to have turned their attitudes around, and were happy to spend the remainder of their contracts attending functions that were open and educational towards young people and their attitudes.

I have to say, as a father, I think my kids would get more from watching two guys talk about their mistakes and how it nearly destroyed them and how they were stupid and wrong, compared with what my kids would learn if we never heard from the pair of them again.

I'd have much rather seen those apologies done in the flesh, on camera and less read off a page like Olding's was.

People need to hear and feel it to gauge how genuine or not it may be.

Spot on Clive. We can, as a society, follow the hatred being displayed by the hashtag gang and bury the 3 guys under the carpet where they can be eventually forgotten or we can show how we actually deal with those who make mistakes and repent. It makes us much more progressive than following the likes of the feminazis (I don't like the term much but here the shoe fits) dow the route they want to go. Their hatred is palpable which I find disgusting........but I'm not offended.......honest.

by marty2086 Fri 06 Apr 2018, 8:09 pm

Jackson made comments on the stand about how he wish he'd knew the girl left in distress, so it's not his first comments on the matter yet it's not stopping people criticising it saying he's trying to save his skin and he should have done it earlier

by No 7&1/2 Sat 07 Apr 2018, 9:50 am

Pete. That's one of my points. Why call a group of people feminazis. It's language like that which serves in a way to dismiss out of hand any of the varied points they may have.

by Pete330v2 Sat 07 Apr 2018, 10:14 am

What are their varied points? Do enlighten me, I must be missing something.

by geoff999rugby Sat 07 Apr 2018, 10:36 am

Clive the problem you have is to us atheist it is not acceptable to ring fence religious beliefs as being something that should be treated differently to not religious comments.
For me what Folau said was worse
What Solomona, and Basteraud said was far worse, although to be fair I don't know what motivated their hateful comments

Grant you it is a tricky one but religious beliefs are just that beliefs of certain people which should have an elevated status.
To add balance I have no problem with Ashers bakery doing what they did, I wont shop there, but I agree they had a right to refuse.
I suspect we don't want to enter that debate though Whistle

by No 7&1/2 Sat 07 Apr 2018, 11:08 am

Pete, some will no doubt want them sacked. Some will want lesser punishments than that but quicker action. Some will just want to highlight what they consider backwards laws around accusations of r*** and the many shades of grey in between.

by Pete330v2 Sat 07 Apr 2018, 11:14 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Pete, some will no doubt want them sacked. Some will want lesser punishments than that but quicker action. Some will just want to highlight what they consider backwards laws around accusations of r*** and the many shades of grey in between.

But that's just incorrect. They are campaigning for the players involved to never play for Ulster or Ireland again, it even says it on their media output right after the various hashtag exclamations. There's not variance in what they are asking for at all. There is the kind of variance you describe in those supporting the players.

by marty2086 Sat 07 Apr 2018, 11:19 am

Pete330v2 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Pete, some will no doubt want them sacked. Some will want lesser punishments than that but quicker action. Some will just want to highlight what they consider backwards laws around accusations of r*** and the many shades of grey in between.

But that's just incorrect. They are campaigning for the players involved to never play for Ulster or Ireland again, it even says it on their media output right after the various hashtag exclamations. There's not variance in what they are asking for at all. There is the kind of variance you describe in those supporting the players.

Full page paper ads, protests at court buildings, at civic buildings and another planned for next week at the Ospreys game plus demands for Ulster to tell the world whats going on even though they've told them whats going on, a bloody review not to mention another hearing is still to come

by No 7&1/2 Sat 07 Apr 2018, 11:28 am

It's not incorrect. Some won't be wanting them sacked even when matching. It becomes bigger than this particular case as well. To call them feminazis just doesn't sit right.

by marty2086 Sat 07 Apr 2018, 11:31 am

Why? When they're demanding that men be held to a higher standard than women is that not what the name implies, overzealous, overreaching feminism?

by No 7&1/2 Sat 07 Apr 2018, 11:33 am

Why a higher standard? Don't understand that. But to bring it back to the point of the thread again if there are these protests and a lot of I'll feeling the club obviously need to take a softer stance than some of the fans.

by marty2086 Sat 07 Apr 2018, 11:36 am

Because the young woman involved used similar language to Gilroy, yet no one sees a problem there. They also don't see a problem with calling Jackson or Olding rapists because a woman made an accusation but they have a problem with comments directed towards the young woman, they are applying differing standards.

Just because you have protests doesn't mean they are right or you bow down to the pressure, leadership is about creating consensus, not following it.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 07 Apr 2018, 11:41 am

We've come a long way. There's obviously a good distance to travel.

by marty2086 Sat 07 Apr 2018, 11:50 am

I agree but those who are calling for the players to be sacked and thats what they are doing, are part of the problem. They have hitched their wagon to a seriously flawed case, they have went after the players as a group rather than on the merits of what each said or did, which is how it should be handled.

Ulster Rugby have questions to answer, there have been issues around behaviour for a long time. Most clubs face them and I think it's a throwback to pre professionalism but there's also a societal issue.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 07 Apr 2018, 11:54 am

There's always people who fight against the law and call for change. They're not always wrong. In this sort of instance barricading yourself against it won't do any good. I don't envy the guys in power at ulster as it's going to be a very difficult period for them.

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