New coach needed at Quins

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New coach needed at Quins

Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 09 Apr 2018, 4:05 pm

John Kingston out at Quins

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2018/04/09/harlequins-director-rugby-john-kingston-leave-club-disappointing/

Quins supporters will know more, but it's disappointing to hear stories of a club seemingly at odds with itself. Hope an English coach gets a chance.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by propdavid_london on Mon 09 Apr 2018, 4:16 pm

More concerning is that John Kingston will be looking for a new club himself.......who's it gonna be?

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by propdavid_london on Mon 09 Apr 2018, 4:27 pm

He should never have gotten the job in the first place.
This is his second stab at being DOR. First time around when Quins were relegated. This time it was another shambles.
I don't know if the salary or package wasn't right when they were looking 'post' COS. There were a lot of big names talked about and then they all said no for various reasons.
I got the feeling that Kingston was all that was left come the start of the season so the Quins board ran with it.

There were a lot of cracks appearing in COS last season in charge, and the coaching team didn't seem to know how to resolve issues at that time. Promoting from within the same group didn't make sense - they still couldn't fix the cracks and they just got bigger.

A lot has to be asked of the board who only relatively recently gave contract extensions to the senior coaches for 3yrs! Even when performances have been naff! To the players that must have looked like rewarding failure.

I gave Marlan Yarde a bit of a rough time when he left Quins for Sale mid season - but as it turns out he may well have felt that Quins weren't being coached properly and weren't going to go anywhere with the current management.

Whoever will be recruiting will have to work damn hard to find the right person - hopefully its not the same group again.
Perhaps we will see this NZ sharing deal bear fruit and get an experienced 'motivator' into the group.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by formerly known as Sam on Mon 09 Apr 2018, 6:56 pm

Kingston strikes me as someone who was promoted above his ability. At AP level he seems a decent coach just not when he's the head coach.

Quin's need a something different. The NZ connection could see another foreign DOR head over or Rowntree could make an unpopular step forward. Other than that who's available? The next stop for the Mallinder and West combo or will Lancaster be offered the chance to return to Twickenham (albeit slightly down the road).

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 10 Apr 2018, 12:45 am

We thought this year's Premiership would be competitive, and it has been, Sadly, the rugby hasn't been as impressive, so that has made the state of affairs at a lot of clubs look quite poor. Saints, Quins and Bath have no clear identity. Give that they have good supporter bases, the overall league needs coaching and management to put some life back into them.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by yappysnap on Tue 10 Apr 2018, 4:47 am

It had to happen, and to be honest this is a season later then it should have happened, after the performances of last season he should have gone and we'd at least be settling in someone new. Now we have a wasted season to make up for.

As others have said he never should have been promoted, and the board should be asked some tough questions about their supposed world wide talent search. He was clearly out of his depth when he filled in after Richards, and it was exactly the same this time.

Lovely guy, and a Quins stalwart. He's an excellent forwards coach and he's turned into a shrewd man when making signings. But he just isn't a DoR.

Names being mentioned are
Cockers - better then JK but is he too divisive?
Sean Edwards - Could be very good, has a heck of a lot of experience (especially in defense!) and has said repeatedly he wants to do more then just coach defense for Wales. Bit of a gamble but he's my choice
Lancaster - Can't see it. When CoS left Lancaster applied for the position but the England players actually told the board to not hire him.
Farrell - Like Edwards hasn't had the top job but wants it, again a tough coach who specializes in defense. I'd be happy with him also

Or a NZ coach, but I would like English talent if possible, or we'll be slowly killing the game here.

Who ever is picked I hope they sack the other coaches, i'd only leave Rowntree who's getting a pass as he's got the experience and rep, even if his results with the forwards have been surprisingly poor.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by mid_gen on Tue 10 Apr 2018, 7:15 pm

I hope we see some new coaching in place, in particular get shot of the ex-players loitering around and get some professional coaching staff in...people that aren't mates and can kick their asses into gear.

As said, Kingston has actually been pretty good on the signing side, we have a very competitive squad, certainly top 6. I hope we can hang on to the best of them over the summer...I'm sure we would have lost plenty if nothing changed.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 10 Apr 2018, 9:41 pm

Can't see Cockers moving. He moved his family up to Edinburgh from their home in Market Harborough. He didn't do that for Toulon. Would indicate to me he intends to be up in Scotland long term not just until the next AP offer comes his way. He won't ever get offered the England job because he's put too many people's backs up over the years so moving to Twickers isn't the big draw it might be for others.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by propdavid_london on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 8:56 am

Guys I don't want involved..........
Mallinder/West
Andy Robinson
Nick Kennedy



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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by mid_gen on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 10:09 am

I'd like us to get someone from the SH with Super Rugby experience. We need some different coaching in the AP, the dross being played this season isn't working.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 12:16 pm

mid_gen wrote:I'd like us to get someone from the SH with Super Rugby experience. We need some different coaching in the AP, the dross being played this season isn't working.

Top 5 AP clubs this season;

Exeter - Rob Baxter - no Super Rugby experience
Saracens - McColl - no Super Rugby experience
Tigers - O'Connor - some Super Rugby experience
Wasps Dai Young - no Super Rugby experience
Newcastle - Richards - no Super Rugby experience

Those are in the running for playoffs the only one with Super Rugby experience was hired because he'd previously been a good number two in the AP and nearly lost his job earlier this season before the addition of a forwards coach saved his bacon.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 12:32 pm

I don't think a Southern Hemisphere coach has won the English Premiership since Gatland did it with Wasps.

I think if clubs want to employ Super Rugby coaches, then they need to take the responsibility for assembling the squad away from them. It's a full-time job working out how to keep a balanced squad which can fight on several fronts, and stay within the cap.

We need something like the General Manager/Head Coach split in US professional sports. Super Rugby experience is no indicator of whether an individual is up to the responsibilities of being a General Manager.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 12:41 pm

John Wells seemingly on the move in the summer...he's proved a great coach (despite my initial dislike of his appointment)

Said to be going into Education, but could his head be swayed by a Quins top role? Or is he not the big name experienced head coach you'd want.

Also I think Lancaster would be a great fit for Quins.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 1:43 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Also I think Lancaster would be a great fit for Quins.
I heard on one podcast that Lancaster's name was floated before but the England players at Quins weren't keen on the idea.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by mid_gen on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 2:50 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
mid_gen wrote:I'd like us to get someone from the SH with Super Rugby experience. We need some different coaching in the AP, the dross being played this season isn't working.

Top 5 AP clubs this season;

Exeter - Rob Baxter - no Super Rugby experience
Saracens - McColl - no Super Rugby experience
Tigers - O'Connor - some Super Rugby experience
Wasps Dai Young - no Super Rugby experience
Newcastle - Richards - no Super Rugby experience

Those are in the running for playoffs the only one with Super Rugby experience was hired because he'd previously been a good number two in the AP and nearly lost his job earlier this season before the addition of a forwards coach saved his bacon.

I think you missed the point.

Being top of the AP isn't much of an achievement when the AP clubs are getting tonked in Europe and the English national team it feeds is getting drubbed in the 6N.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by Brendan on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 3:32 pm

mid_gen wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
mid_gen wrote:I'd like us to get someone from the SH with Super Rugby experience. We need some different coaching in the AP, the dross being played this season isn't working.

Top 5 AP clubs this season;

Exeter - Rob Baxter - no Super Rugby experience
Saracens - McColl - no Super Rugby experience
Tigers - O'Connor - some Super Rugby experience
Wasps Dai Young - no Super Rugby experience
Newcastle - Richards - no Super Rugby experience

Those are in the running for playoffs the only one with Super Rugby experience was hired because he'd previously been a good number two in the AP and nearly lost his job earlier this season before the addition of a forwards coach saved his bacon.

I think you missed the point.

Being top of the AP isn't much of an achievement when the AP clubs are getting tonked in Europe and the English national team it feeds is getting drubbed in the 6N.

I think he means SH coaches aren't use to being in two tournaments so might strugge. NH rugby is more physical and season is longer so better squad management needed.

Other than Piviac who is the last SH coach to win a league in the NH. Joe came from Clearmont is it Lamb. So not great return necessarily in getting SH coach who doesn't know the players in the squad or the other teams

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by mid_gen on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 4:14 pm

I'll take a SH coach that needs to learn some 'squad management' over a NH coach that needs to learn how to coach competitive rugby.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 4:17 pm

mid_gen wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
mid_gen wrote:I'd like us to get someone from the SH with Super Rugby experience. We need some different coaching in the AP, the dross being played this season isn't working.

Top 5 AP clubs this season;

Exeter - Rob Baxter - no Super Rugby experience
Saracens - McColl - no Super Rugby experience
Tigers - O'Connor - some Super Rugby experience
Wasps Dai Young - no Super Rugby experience
Newcastle - Richards - no Super Rugby experience

Those are in the running for playoffs the only one with Super Rugby experience was hired because he'd previously been a good number two in the AP and nearly lost his job earlier this season before the addition of a forwards coach saved his bacon.

I think you missed the point.

Being top of the AP isn't much of an achievement when the AP clubs are getting tonked in Europe and the English national team it feeds is getting drubbed in the 6N.

Getting Drubbed? Ill bite...
Who's won the last few European Cups??

6n
2 6n titles in a row, one a grand slam.
We had a poor one this season, (we still beat Wales...Laugh ) following a lions tour, missing a number of key players through injury and when Jones even admitted they had tried a few different things - which didn't work.

Yeah things are going horribly wrong..... thumbsup

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by mid_gen on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 4:27 pm

We had a poor season because the English league, coached by NH coaches, is playing a style of rugby that isn't competitive.

I guess your team being in the top half for a change is exciting and all, but it doesn't change the fact that English rugby has been cack this year.

If there were any NH coaches who were playing good rugby and were available....sure. But right now I wouldn't take any coaches from the AP, and chances of any of the top Pro 14 coaches leaving to go to quins are slim.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by Brendan on Wed 11 Apr 2018, 5:54 pm

mid_gen wrote:We had a poor season because the English league, coached by NH coaches, is playing a style of rugby that isn't competitive.

I guess your team being in the top half for a change is exciting and all, but it doesn't change the fact that English rugby has been cack this year.

If there were any NH coaches who were playing good rugby and were available....sure. But right now I wouldn't take any coaches from the AP, and chances of any of the top Pro 14 coaches leaving to go to quins are slim.

Which teams in the Prem are SH coaches is Bath or Glaws the highest. As Corkrill has shown he is able to hold his own in the Pro 14 so English coaches are fine.

While England did poor they weren't that far away in the three games they lost. As an Irish fan I'll admit Ireland had all the luck that game in scoring each of their tries. Care was unlucky to get called back v Scotland.
On the club side Wasps loss to Quinn's was a Hollywood type game. Bath weren't to far away and but for 5mins of madness at the end of the Scarlets v Treviso game could have made it through.

So if Gats is the last SH coach to win the Prem and he had spent the majority of his time in Ireland getting a SH coach might not be the best

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 2:21 am

mid_gen wrote:I'll take a SH coach that needs to learn some 'squad management' over a NH coach that needs to learn how to coach competitive rugby.
Squad management isn't something you pick up quickly, and then get back to coaching, It's the core of the job, and means the individual has to rely more on others to coach.

Bath have a wealthy backer, but you don't get the impression Blackadder is entirely comfortable yet in managing his resources for a Premiership season. It's a long learning curve.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by yappysnap on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 4:54 am

An ex Prem coach could be fine, we need someone with vision and the ability to get everyone working towards the same goal. And someone who can deal with what seems like a pretty dodgy culture in the changing rooms too.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by mid_gen on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 7:29 am

Where are these ex prem coaches with vision and ability? I'm really interested to know who these candidates are....it's all very well saying NH coaches are fine...well come on, who is available?

Given our newly founded partnership with the All Blacks it seems quite likely that new blood may be coming from down south..

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 9:59 am

mid_gen wrote:We had a poor season because the English league, coached by NH coaches, is playing a style of rugby that isn't competitive.

I guess your team being in the top half for a change is exciting and all, but it doesn't change the fact that English rugby has been cack this year.

If there were any NH coaches who were playing good rugby and were available....sure. But right now I wouldn't take any coaches from the AP, and chances of any of the top Pro 14 coaches leaving to go to quins are slim.

Well im quite happy with Dean thanks...I don't want no SH coach!
And If you watch us regular, when we have our core set of players, we play extremely attacking fast rugby.

I think your wrong.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by mid_gen on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 10:27 am

Falcons are much improved this year (which is great), and I'd take Dean Richards if he was available sure.

But we're not talking about replacing Dean Richards at Falcons. We're talking about finding a new DoR for Harlequins.


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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 8:16 pm

I was arguing that you suggest a SH coach is the be all and end all....

I think there are good coaches out there they just need a chance. Rob Baxter wasn't a big name manager...look what he's doing. Whos to say someone like John Wells wouldn't do the same.

Its about putting some effort in to find one.

Personally I want to see mostly English coaches in the prem.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by yappysnap on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 8:24 pm

Off the top of my head guys doing well:

Dai Young
Richards
Baxter
Diamond
Sarries coach

So there's obviously some NH talent in the league. Would they come to Quins? no. Would we want them? Maybe.

Grabbing someone from super rugby has no guarantees to it, it's so different in style that it's a massive transition for coaches, just look at Coventry, Blackadder, O'Connor off the top of my head.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 8:37 pm

mid_gen wrote:Falcons are much improved this year (which is great), and I'd take Dean Richards if he was available sure.

But we're not talking about replacing Dean Richards at Falcons. We're talking about finding a new DoR for Harlequins.


Mallinder and West did good jobs at England under 20s and initially at Saints. This season might be the wake up call they need to change how they operate and go back to what made them successful. They'd got far too settled at Saints and needed something to force a change. Former Bath and Nottingham DOR Haag is with England under 20s, he's a very good coach as a left field selecrion.

I'm sure Mike Ford would like another shot... can't see that though.

SH coaches aren't a magic wand, they seem to work well in the Pro14 where they're popular. Previously we've seen the likes of Coventry and Mauger come in and not hit the heights. Tom Coventry was a Super 15 winner before he got LI relegated.

Ackerman has come in and done a great job at Glaws. Blackadder has been very average at Bath.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by yappysnap on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 9:43 pm

Yea exactly, a lot of SH coaches really struggle to cross over to the AP.

Interesting article by Andy Goode about Quins, he points out that Martin Johnson is around and available??!

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/quins-need-experienced-outsider-replace-kingston-andy-goode&#8236

Bizarre call really, Johnson is a legend, but has little to no experience and his stint as England coach was just pointless.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by Brendan on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 9:46 pm

I think a S.A. coach as opposed to a SH coach would suit the Prem better. There must be some up and coming people who are ready to step up

Quinn's need someone to steady the ship and improve them slowly.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by yappysnap on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 9:49 pm

Ackerman has done well to be fair. Are there many other good SA coaches? I know nothing about them, but how well coached are the SA teams in the Rabo?

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by yappysnap on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 9:50 pm

Biggest thing for Quins is avoiding relegation next season, if ring fencing is coming in then that'll be the end of us. Even if it isn't we'd probably be Frak if we went down. Even if it means an interim coach who just keeps us at 11th, I don't mind if there's a plan and it's executed in the long run.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by yappysnap on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 10:02 pm

Also the Fail reports:

Harlequins will enlist the help of the All Blacks in the search for a new boss, raising the prospect of yet another foreign coach leading a Premiership side.

The Londoners recently signed a 'strategic partnership' with the back-to-back world champions and as part of that agreement will now ask the New Zealanders to provide them with advice and a list of potential names within the Kiwi system to take charge at the Stoop.

Sportsmail understands Quins are more likely than not to appoint their first southern hemisphere coach in 17 years - having sacked stalwart John Kingston on Monday - since New Zealander Zinzan Brooke resigned in 2001.

They will not be promoting from within, as they did when appointing Kingston to the top job when Conor O'Shea left to join Italy in 2016.

One coach who could be suggested by the Kiwis is Scott Robertson, the 43-year-old former All Black flanker who won 22 caps and now leads the Crusaders in Super Rugby.

But legendary former All Black guru Wayne Smith, 60, is highly unlikely to be appointed as he joined the Kobe Steelers in Japan this week.

Kingston was given his marching orders on Monday after a galling 35-5 home defeat to London Irish last Saturday, despite signing a new contract in January.

I can't see Scott Johnson leaving, he is the big name down here at the moment and in a few seasons if he's still going well will be in and around the AB camp I expect.

Still all speculation tbh.

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Re: New coach needed at Quins

Post by Brendan on Thu 12 Apr 2018, 10:23 pm

The Kings coach seems to make teams better than the sum of their parts. He had the kings get big wins in Super Rugby and their second season was fairly good. Lost more or less his whole squad when joining the Pro 14 and has now got them coming together. He would do well.

Is there any good coaches in the championship such as Ealing's guy.

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