IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

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IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Brendan on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 4:06 pm

Following on from last summer we seem to be seeing the IRFU taking a more active role in where players play.

Last summer many complained that moving Cooney to Ulster to replace Ruan was a bad move but from a player point of view and Irish view it has worked out well.  We now have 4 scrumhalfs playing regularly and we now have three players pushing for second spot.

We are seeing Jordi moving North and talk of a flyhalf joining.  We also see Copeland going to connacht.  We have the situation where we have about 20 international players at Leinster whose growth is stunned due to lack of Quaility games.  Before it was locks at Munster.

So do we want to see the 4 best players in each position starting regularly at each of the provinces with an experienced lesser player and young upstart fighting it out for backup
Or is it up to each province to produce their own and let players move if they want.

There is a third option which is what I would like to see is the IRFU sign younger players on development contracts and send them to other provinces to learn from outside their team bubble.  When the contract would be up the provinces could then try and get players they need rather than feel they have to keep a certain player because they developed them


Last edited by Brendan on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 6:02 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Standulstermen on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 4:11 pm

We all want a strong Ireland but individually these guys want the best career for themselves and in most instances this involves their home province. Entice people to move by all means but you cant force. I think thats what we have currently and in fairness it seems to be working.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 4:23 pm

You cant make players move somewhere they don't want to go however, there are ways to incentivise movement of players so that we end up with 4 strong provinces. Clever processes are the way forward.

I really don't see what the big deal about Carbery or Byrne doing a year in Belfast. You could nearly commute daily to Belfast or divide your time between Dublin and Belfast fairly easily. Its only a couple of hours up the road and it puts them in the shop window for the RWC.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 5:11 pm

Encouraging players to move and/or being accepted is the best approach.

Cathal Marsh needs to get away from Leinster and get some regular game time - probably at Ulster. Himself and Cooney would make a good partnership and know each other from playing together before.

A couple more flankers out of Leinster over to Connacht wouldn’t go amiss. The Westerners are having a big clearout of Irish and foreign players.

Ulster need to clear some deadwood too, and keep giving game time to some of the younger/newer guys performing in recent weeks.

Munster are stuck at 10. Keatley isn’t the answer. Is Bleyendaal too fragile? Is JJ Hanrahan their best hope for next season?

There’s a NIE outhalf slot available - do Ulster pursue someone like Quade Cooper for next September, or hold out for someone else post-RWC and make do with McPhillips and Marsh until then?

Scrumhalf seems to be well balanced with four good operators across each team.

Hooker stocks are still looking a bit bare. Strauss retiring leaves ageing Cronin in place until RWC and Tracy behind him. Best has Herring who is so-so. Tom McCartney at Connacht is now IQ and contracted until June 2020 but at 32 not one for the future. Dave Heffernan behind him is not pulling up trees.
Munster are in the best shape of the four.

Niall Scannell and Rhys Marshall who becomes IQ after RWC 19 are the two regulars with Mike Sherry, capped five years ago and nothing since, trailing behind them. He might benefit from a move out west. Or possibly Kevin O’Byrne who deputized well this season in the absence of Scannell.
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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 5:41 pm

Ulster don't want Marsh not good enough - rather we develop our own.
We need a player who is up to speed now not one who might be in a couple of years
We already have three of those McPhillips, Curtis, Lowry

Ulster are clearing out the deadwood - we will see a lot of the kids next year.
We are well stocked at hooker - Herring is a decent backup and seems to be rated by Joe as highly as anyone behind Best
Andrew is decent and McBurney is probably better than any of them

The problem is players will not move and will put there heals in.
Carney and Bryne would rather be 3rd choice at Leinster, than 1st choice at Ulster

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Brendan on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 6:15 pm

The problem (that seems to be getting sorted) is Leinster is producing as much as the other three combined so have way to many good players. As has been pointed out on the Ulster tread they have a lot coming through just missing a few to be ready now.

Porter gains nothing during the internationals as he is away as well. I think if Jordi gets more Irish time because he moved and Moore takes back up from Porter it might cause others to look.

Right now you could make 3 international standard back rows in Ireland and the 4th would be decent club level.

If this u23 takes off it might help to improve development and put young players in the window sooner. It could also end up that Leinster end up having a team that gets TBP against everyone.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Brendan on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 6:21 pm

Also we saw in the 6 Nations how all our centres did which would not have happened if they were all in two provinces coming on as subs in big games.

I think players like Copeland and Bernie have shown moving to get game time is important. Though I think itvwas also they wereclet go. A lot of the up and coming players want to win and play so the mindset might change.

I wouldn't be against us sending players to Pro 14 teams for a year a kind of exchange program. Imagine having a working holiday to Italy or South Africa for a year showing what you can do

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by thebandwagonsociety on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 6:24 pm

I can't see how Leinster can split their finances to cover Sexton, Carbery and Byrne. Outhalf is an expensive position the three of them, it could be argued are starting pro14/euro-pool match level. Add in Frawley in the academy who has already made a couple of impressive cameos on the senior side and Marsh who is pretty much out the door. Don't forget Byrne the younger getting Ireland u20 experience.

Leinster need their money to shore up other areas. As Carbery and Byrne come out of their current contracts the decision gets made by the agents soon enough.

The provinces need to generate their core of their team in-house though be it through academy or club routes. That's the USP, that's the intangible that can't get a price put on it.

If Ulster were to end up with 5-6 starters out of Leinster, do the stands really feel that Ulster is 'their team' if a third or even half the players are from Leinster? At what point does the die-hard fan not show up because he couldn't be arsed to watch a Leinster reserve side (as they would dub it) and instead just goes along and supports his local club a bit more? It's a dangerous slope to go down and very difficult to scale it back up afterwards.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Brendan on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 6:37 pm

Irish people love winners and Irish people love chips on their shoulders. Players will play with passion and if Irish spots are up for grabs they will work hard. Connacht is an example of people playing well for their adopted province as also is Cooney.

Regards agents I would be worried they might view overseas as better than Ireland and the player can come back and have their pick of Province

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 7:06 pm

I read somewhere, inspite of the publicity, that there are actually more Leinster born players in the Munster and Connacht squads than there are in the Ulster squad - true or false ?

Currently 6 in the Ulster senior squad
Cooney, AOC, Jones, Shanahan, Timoney and O'Hagan who hasn't played yet and has lived his life in the north so must have been really young (pre school) before coming north.
Two newbies next year - Murphy and Moore.
Murphy is the only one to come direct from the Leinster senior squad

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 7:12 pm

I recently read BOD's poor choice of words on Twitter. A little unfair but he went on to make a good point, that Ulster have underachieved with the players they have available. Might have things have been different if Anscombe was given more time? His son might be playing for ye too... 2 years isn't much time for a coach but I felt that Ulster were very strong during his tenure. Moore and Murphy signing up is a good idea - Leinster are currently up there with NZ for producing quality players and I also believe Henshaw was one of the previous exchanges having played out NW?

I personally think it's a good idea farming players around giving old and new guys more playing time, so long as Connacht don't get neglected too much. The future looks positive for Ireland. On that note, I think Beirne would have been a better fit at Leinster and I'm surprised they didn't fight to get his signature. He'll do well at Munster though, he's excellent in both the loose and tight.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 8:14 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:I read somewhere, inspite of the publicity, that there are actually more Leinster born players in the Munster and Connacht squads than there are in the Ulster squad - true or false ?

Currently 6 in the Ulster senior squad
Cooney, AOC, Jones, Shanahan, Timoney and O'Hagan who hasn't played yet and has lived his life in the north so must have been really young (pre school) before coming north.
Two newbies next year - Murphy and Moore.
Murphy is the only one to come direct from the Leinster senior squad

Munster forwards have a load of blokes from Cork, a few Limerick, South Africa, Tipp, Waterford, Reno US, and 1 each from Wexford and Dublin.  
Backs are a few Cork, SA, Tipp, three Dublin, Surrey, NZ, Belfast, a few Limerick, Clare and Prestbury UK.
That’s 5 I think, Beirne is coming in next season and Wexford-born Copeland is moving to Connacht.  

Connacht have Offaly, 2 Roscommon, Sligo, Ealing UK, Tipp, 8 Dublin, Cork, a good few from Galway, Kettering UK, Paris, SA, Fiji, Laois, Barking UK, Maidstone UK, a few from NZ/Oz, Kildare, Nigeria, Belfast.

12 from Leinster.  Losing 3 Dubs next season and gaining 1 Wexfordman.
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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Standulstermen on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 9:29 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I can't see how Leinster can split their finances to cover Sexton, Carbery and Byrne.  Outhalf is an expensive position the three of them, it could be argued are starting pro14/euro-pool match level.  Add in Frawley in the academy who has already made a couple of impressive cameos on the senior side and Marsh who is pretty much out the door.  Don't forget Byrne the younger getting Ireland u20 experience.

Leinster need their money to shore up other areas.  As Carbery and Byrne come out of their current contracts the decision gets made by the agents soon enough.

The provinces need to generate their core of their team in-house though be it through academy or club routes.  That's the USP, that's the intangible that can't get a price put on it.

If Ulster were to end up with 5-6 starters out of Leinster, do the stands really feel that Ulster is 'their team' if a third or even half the players are from Leinster? At what point does the die-hard fan not show up because he couldn't be arsed to watch a Leinster reserve side (as they would dub it) and instead just goes along and supports his local club a bit more?  It's a dangerous slope to go down and very difficult to scale it back up afterwards.

Speaking for myself i would much rather see a team of talented young Ulstermen. If that isnt feasible (at present it probably isnt) i'd like to see a team of talented young Irishmen that will help the national side. What i dont want is a team filled with projects or  and journeymen from around the globe. That isnt meant disrespectfully as some of said 'journeymen' like Reidy are great signings and fit in. I just dont want the team overrun with them. If you look at the leinster lads that have come up you tend to find they fit in nicely. O'Connor while probably having a ceiling in terms of talent is a crowd favourite because its apparent he has that bit of dog in him. Cooney seems to be enjoying his rugby and gets a great reception. Obviously with the two signings in next season it will strengthen that Leinster tie but im not convinced O'Connor will see as much first choice gametime. I would hope we get an NIQ lock and bring Dalton through. O'Toole and Kane can split gametime with Moore. At present the only LHs we have (im discounting vdm) are homegrown and 3/4 of our hookers are the same. the backrow is weak but with Timoney, Rea having made a bit of a breakthrough and Agnew, Hall, Dunleavy and co at the next level we look ok.

I know some disagree but im happy enough without either Leinster 10 moving so outside of Cooney and Ludik our backs are our own.

Mikey
Munster have two NIQ locks on the books i believe which might explain their desire to bring Beirne there. Not sure what you meant about Henshaw? If this helps i believe he was born in leinster but was a product of the Connacht rugby system from the start.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by neilthom7 on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 9:36 pm

I think the best way froward is to try and persuade guys to move and get more gametime a la Cooney etc but we should not force players to move.
Persuade them yes, give them incentives, make the case that it's better for their international chance but don't force them.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Pot Hale on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 9:49 pm

Standulstermen wrote:
thebandwagonsociety wrote:I can't see how Leinster can split their finances to cover Sexton, Carbery and Byrne.  Outhalf is an expensive position the three of them, it could be argued are starting pro14/euro-pool match level.  Add in Frawley in the academy who has already made a couple of impressive cameos on the senior side and Marsh who is pretty much out the door.  Don't forget Byrne the younger getting Ireland u20 experience.

Leinster need their money to shore up other areas.  As Carbery and Byrne come out of their current contracts the decision gets made by the agents soon enough.

The provinces need to generate their core of their team in-house though be it through academy or club routes.  That's the USP, that's the intangible that can't get a price put on it.

If Ulster were to end up with 5-6 starters out of Leinster, do the stands really feel that Ulster is 'their team' if a third or even half the players are from Leinster? At what point does the die-hard fan not show up because he couldn't be arsed to watch a Leinster reserve side (as they would dub it) and instead just goes along and supports his local club a bit more?  It's a dangerous slope to go down and very difficult to scale it back up afterwards.

Speaking for myself i would much rather see a team of talented young Ulstermen. If that isnt feasible (at present it probably isnt) i'd like to see a team of talented young Irishmen that will help the national side. What i dont want is a team filled with projects or  and journeymen from around the globe. That isnt meant disrespectfully as some of said 'journeymen' like Reidy are great signings and fit in. I just dont want the team overrun with them. If you look at the leinster lads that have come up you tend to find they fit in nicely. O'Connor while probably having a ceiling in terms of talent is a crowd favourite because its apparent he has that bit of dog in him. Cooney seems to be enjoying his rugby and gets a great reception. Obviously with the two signings in next season it will strengthen that Leinster tie but im not convinced O'Connor will see as much first choice gametime. I would hope we get an NIQ lock and bring Dalton through. O'Toole and Kane can split gametime with Moore. At present the only LHs we have (im discounting vdm) are homegrown and 3/4 of our hookers are the same. the backrow is weak but with Timoney, Rea having made a bit of a breakthrough and Agnew, Hall, Dunleavy and co at the next level we look ok.

I know some disagree but im happy enough without either Leinster 10 moving so outside of Cooney and Ludik our backs are our own.

Mikey
Munster have two NIQ locks on the books i believe which might explain their desire to bring Beirne there. Not sure what you meant about Henshaw? If this helps i believe he was born in leinster but was a product of the Connacht rugby system from the start.

Grobler is only a one-year contract at Munster to fill the gap between Ryan leaving and Beirne arriving.  Might he move to Ulster as an NIQ lock since he’s in the country so to speak? Fardy has one of the NIE lock slots. Kleyn has the other as an NIQ special project, but becomes IQ in June 2019. And Fardy finishes his contract at Leinster at same time.
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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Standulstermen on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 10:33 pm

In that instance pot I suspect maybe we would be allowed an NIQ LH (provided we get rid of VDM). It’s a funny one as Gibbes seems to have a wee thing for Warwick who has begun to repay him. I’m still not convinced enough to suggest him as first choice. Word is Deysel has a serious injury so might that be the end of his time here?

With Piutau going we have no guaranteed NIQ on the books for next year. We are light enough in the outside backs ironically but I doubt we would be allowed a signing there. No thanks to Grobler though.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by geoff999rugby on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 10:42 pm

Stand Cunningham has gone public in stating that journeymen across the board are on their way out - will take till next year as some have contracts till 2019.

Currently we have only Deysel, Coetzee as NIE and VdeMerwe as a project.
That project contract could be terminated

Cunningham also went public stating that LH, Lock,backrower, in that order, were our NIE signing priorities
Obviously Jackson going has upset that
We can sign two further NIE and if no Irishmen coming in they will be a LH and a 10.
If one of those is a Irishman good enough we will sign a Lock.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Standulstermen on Tue 24 Apr 2018, 11:02 pm

He has said that Geoff but we have very little by way of confirmations regarding this squad and the longer this fecking coach search goes on the more limitations we are putting on ourselves. We are kidding ourselves at lock if we don’t prioritise there. I’d argue it’s where we are worst off given Hendo will be away with Ireland. Treadwell hasn’t kicked on, Dalton is massively raw with Rodney esque tackle stats and AoC is a bloody grinder but limited. My own thought is if we can’t (or aren’t allowed) a Lealiafano we should get the best possible tools so McPhillips and Cooney have the ball on a silver platter. In fairness barring Stockdale it doesn’t look like any of our backs will be called up anytime soon.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 25 Apr 2018, 9:16 am

Lock is a problem but so is LH and 10 - sadly we cant fix every spot.
I honestly think Cunningham has identified the correct priorities in the forward LH, Lock, backrow in that order.

As to getting rid of players surplus to requirement - we have lost old players to retirement Marshall and Bowe and also Herron is away.
I understand Diack and Patterson have been released
I don't expect Simpson or Montgomery to be retained and one of more or Cairns, Owens, Busby will go
Henry may well retire
Ah You will be an interesting one - looks surplus to requirements to me; we have 4 TH without him - Moore, Herbst, Kane, O'Toole.
Hopefully VdeMerwe contract will be cancelled
So a thining out is happening but some will not go as they have contracts for next year.

As to a coach the reality is we are a hard sell at the moment

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 25 Apr 2018, 10:10 am

Pot Hale wrote:

Munster forwards have a load of blokes from Cork, a few Limerick, South Africa, Tipp, Waterford, Reno US, and 1 each from Wexford and Dublin.  
Backs are a few Cork, SA, Tipp, three Dublin, Surrey, NZ, Belfast, a few Limerick, Clare and Prestbury UK.
That’s 5 I think, Beirne is coming in next season and Wexford-born Copeland is moving to Connacht.  
.



James Hart, Conor Oliver, Ian Keatley and Andrew Conway are all from Dublin. Jeremy Loughman also went to school in Blackrock college although he is from Athy. Copeland is from Wexford so that's 6.

Maybe you didn't count Hart?

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 25 Apr 2018, 10:39 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

Munster forwards have a load of blokes from Cork, a few Limerick, South Africa, Tipp, Waterford, Reno US, and 1 each from Wexford and Dublin.  
Backs are a few Cork, SA, Tipp, three Dublin, Surrey, NZ, Belfast, a few Limerick, Clare and Prestbury UK.
That’s 5 I think, Beirne is coming in next season and Wexford-born Copeland is moving to Connacht.  
.



James Hart, Conor Oliver, Ian Keatley and Andrew Conway are all from Dublin. Jeremy Loughman also went to school in Blackrock college although he is from Athy. Copeland is from Wexford so that's 6.

Maybe you didn't count Hart?

I did. I looked at where each of those was born.
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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by profitius on Wed 25 Apr 2018, 3:29 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

Munster forwards have a load of blokes from Cork, a few Limerick, South Africa, Tipp, Waterford, Reno US, and 1 each from Wexford and Dublin.  
Backs are a few Cork, SA, Tipp, three Dublin, Surrey, NZ, Belfast, a few Limerick, Clare and Prestbury UK.
That’s 5 I think, Beirne is coming in next season and Wexford-born Copeland is moving to Connacht.  
.



James Hart, Conor Oliver, Ian Keatley and Andrew Conway are all from Dublin. Jeremy Loughman also went to school in Blackrock college although he is from Athy. Copeland is from Wexford so that's 6.

Maybe you didn't count Hart?

I did. I looked at where each of those was born.  


For some reason very few players are from Limerick, the so called home of rugby.
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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 25 Apr 2018, 5:21 pm

So basically when I asked if Munster and Connacht had more Leinster born players than Ulster the answer is, at the very least, similar or more.

Interesting Ulster being talked about as only coping because of Leinster players but not the other two provinces.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 25 Apr 2018, 6:28 pm

Standulstermen wrote:
Mikey
Munster have two NIQ locks on the books i believe which might explain their desire to bring Beirne there. Not sure what you meant about Henshaw? If this helps i believe he was born in leinster but was a product of the Connacht rugby system from the start.

Perhaps, but I thought Leinster would have fought harder to get him back, especially with Toner getting on. I thought Henshaw went to Connacht from the Leinster academy... and then back to Leinster when he came good although I could be wrong.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 25 Apr 2018, 6:53 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:So basically when I asked if Munster and Connacht had more Leinster born players than Ulster the answer is, at the very least, similar or more.

Interesting Ulster being talked about as only coping because of Leinster players but not the other two provinces.

Connacht are not coping. Where on earth did you get the idea that they are? Have you seen their player exit list?
Ulster are not being talked about as only coping. They’ve been deomstrably poor this season and publicly denounced by ugly lezzers apparently. It doesn’t get much lower than that.
Munster have been slightly better.
Leinster have done ok but have won nothing yet.
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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Kingshu on Wed 25 Apr 2018, 6:57 pm

As I understand it the town Henshaw is from is split into Leinster and connacht by the river. He lived on the leinster side but the school and rugby club were on the other side of the bridge and hence he went though Connachts system.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Pot Hale on Wed 25 Apr 2018, 7:02 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:
Mikey
Munster have two NIQ locks on the books i believe which might explain their desire to bring Beirne there. Not sure what you meant about Henshaw? If this helps i believe he was born in leinster but was a product of the Connacht rugby system from the start.

Perhaps, but I thought Leinster would have fought harder to get him back, especially with Toner getting on. I thought Henshaw went to Connacht from the Leinster academy... and then back to Leinster when he came good although I could be wrong.

Henshaw grew up in Coosan next to the border between Leinster and Connacht.  Big GAA family but his uncle played for Buccaneers RFC and Robbie joined them.  Then moved into Connacht academy before joining senior team. Also an accomplished GAA footballer.
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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed 25 Apr 2018, 7:42 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:So basically when I asked if Munster and Connacht had more Leinster born players than Ulster the answer is, at the very least, similar or more.

Interesting Ulster being talked about as only coping because of Leinster players but not the other two provinces.

Connacht are not coping. Where on earth did you get the idea that they are?  Have you seen their player exit list?
Ulster are not being talked about as only coping.  They’ve been deomstrably poor this season and publicly denounced by ugly lezzers apparently.  It doesn’t get much lower than that.
Munster have been slightly better.  
Leinster have done ok but have won nothing yet.  

Never said Connacht were coping and also only made reference to Ulster and coping with specific reference to the number of Leinster players.
You have made inferences in my post which are well wide of the mark

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Intotouch on Thu 26 Apr 2018, 3:44 am

I think that the poll needs a fourth option. Players being moved around each year sounds too much to me. Once to one other province though I think could be a good experience. Right now I'd like to see one of the young Leinster 10s to go to Ulster for a year. Players might be happier to go knowing that they can return. Also the province coaches might feel less robbed if they know the player is temporarily being moved. After a year then that player could choose to stay on or return but now knowing what to expect in either province. I don't like the idea of forcing a player to move permanently.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by PhilBB on Thu 26 Apr 2018, 8:52 am

Gerrymandering.

This is what happens when you have only one employer.
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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Pete330v2 on Thu 26 Apr 2018, 9:44 am

Intotouch wrote:I think that the poll needs a fourth option. Players being moved around each year sounds too much to me. Once to one other province though I think could be a good experience. Right now I'd like to see one of the young Leinster 10s to go to Ulster for a year. Players might be happier to go knowing that they can return. Also the province coaches might feel less robbed if they know the player is temporarily being moved. After a year then that player could choose to stay on or return but now knowing what to expect in either province. I don't like the idea of forcing a player to move permanently.

That's the thing, they're not talking about anything permanent. To move 2 hours up the road and get the required amount of minutes in the 10 shirt in order to stake your claim for the RWC is surely an offer that would delight a player like Carberry. He could commute very easily and still be around his mates whilst making new Leinster buddies in Belfast. I can understand Byrne wanting to remain where he is, he's getting plenty of game time whilst playing second fiddle to Johnny Sexton, surely a position any young outhalf would dream of. The IRFU need Carberry to play at 10 as much as possible if he's Joe's backup to Sexton for the RWC, anything else will leave us in a lot of trouble should Johnny get injured during the tournament or worse still before it.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Sin é on Thu 26 Apr 2018, 10:10 am

Schmidt should be keeping a good eye on Madigan. He has been playing 10 all season for Bristol, will be in the Premiership next season and is a nominee for Player of the Championship this season. He would be a good bet to bring to the world cup next year. Interestingly, his backup (Callum Sheedy) with Bristol is also Ireland qualified (there was a bit of controversy a few years ago when he pulled out of an U20s Wales squad as he didn't want to be tied to Wales).
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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Kingshu on Thu 26 Apr 2018, 10:36 am

Pete330v2 wrote:
Intotouch wrote:I think that the poll needs a fourth option. Players being moved around each year sounds too much to me. Once to one other province though I think could be a good experience. Right now I'd like to see one of the young Leinster 10s to go to Ulster for a year. Players might be happier to go knowing that they can return. Also the province coaches might feel less robbed if they know the player is temporarily being moved. After a year then that player could choose to stay on or return but now knowing what to expect in either province. I don't like the idea of forcing a player to move permanently.

That's the thing, they're not talking about anything permanent. To move 2 hours up the road and get the required amount of minutes in the 10 shirt in order to stake your claim for the RWC is surely an offer that would delight a player like Carberry. He could commute very easily and still be around his mates whilst making new Leinster buddies in Belfast. I can understand Byrne wanting to remain where he is, he's getting plenty of game time whilst playing second fiddle to Johnny Sexton, surely a position any young outhalf would dream of. The IRFU need Carberry to play at 10 as much as possible if he's Joe's backup to Sexton for the RWC, anything else will leave us in a lot of trouble should Johnny get injured during the tournament or worse still before it.

I think thats the issue the second spot is more appealing and both are hoping the other leaves so that he gets it. Byrne feels as he has started more at 10 than Carbery he can hold onto it, Carbery will feel that he was injured a lot, but was still back up 10 in the H-cup games and that next season will be better. So both want to fight it out for the dream position, and hope the other leaves for the good positional at Ulster.

It makes sense for one to move, but from each players POV it makes more sense to stay, either the other leaves and you get the dream position by default, or the other stays and you believe you can fight and hold onto that team position.

The IRFU should have made Cullen pick one for the dream position and inform the other he would be 3rd choice, that way the 3rd choice one would be more likely to move. By offering them both the option to move, it was always going to happen they would both dig in and either hope the other moves or be happy to fight it out.


On Madigan, I don't buy the hype of him at OH, he has never been able to make himself first choice OH until be moved to the second tier. He's a good OH and a good 12, he is a great bench option to cover both. It would be nice to have him as an option come WC time, but I wouldn't really want him long term at Ulster, would rather a stop gap, or even McPhillips and top NIQ after World Cup. he's not worth the money Paddy was on, and is certainly earning more at Bristol.
If he were to move he would have to be IRFU funded for me to accept it.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 26 Apr 2018, 10:57 am

Madigan is earning, roughly, twice as much at Bristol as Paddy was at Ulster.
Twice the money for half the player - Bristol clearly have more money than sense

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by PhilBB on Thu 26 Apr 2018, 11:29 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Madigan is earning, roughly, twice as much at Bristol as Paddy was at Ulster.
Twice the money for half the player - Bristol clearly have more money than sense

Money saved on the data usage of his phone, however. You must consider that.
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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 26 Apr 2018, 12:14 pm

Bog off troll

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by PhilBB on Thu 26 Apr 2018, 12:16 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Bog off troll


Oh, sense of humour bypass along with the comprehension of the word 'honest'.

My, my.
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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by geoff999rugby on Thu 26 Apr 2018, 12:21 pm

Your are not funny.
Tedious is a more apt description

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by PhilBB on Thu 26 Apr 2018, 1:17 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Your are not funny.
Tedious is a more apt description

"Thanks, Geoff"
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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Intotouch on Mon 30 Apr 2018, 12:21 am

Pete330v2 wrote:
Intotouch wrote:I think that the poll needs a fourth option. Players being moved around each year sounds too much to me. Once to one other province though I think could be a good experience. Right now I'd like to see one of the young Leinster 10s to go to Ulster for a year. Players might be happier to go knowing that they can return. Also the province coaches might feel less robbed if they know the player is temporarily being moved. After a year then that player could choose to stay on or return but now knowing what to expect in either province. I don't like the idea of forcing a player to move permanently.

That's the thing, they're not talking about anything permanent. To move 2 hours up the road and get the required amount of minutes in the 10 shirt in order to stake your claim for the RWC is surely an offer that would delight a player like Carberry. He could commute very easily and still be around his mates whilst making new Leinster buddies in Belfast. I can understand Byrne wanting to remain where he is, he's getting plenty of game time whilst playing second fiddle to Johnny Sexton, surely a position any young outhalf would dream of. The IRFU need Carberry to play at 10 as much as possible if he's Joe's backup to Sexton for the RWC, anything else will leave us in a lot of trouble should Johnny get injured during the tournament or worse still before it.

Pete I don't know why you think that this move isn't permanent. I never heard that it was for a one or two year period. If one moves and another young out half gets promoted from the Leinster academy into the squad then Leinster would have no need to get their player back. Or want him. Especially since whoever plays as first choice ten at Ulster would be more expensive then to re-employ at Leinster.

Madigan wanted to come back to play in Ireland but Leinster had two more out halves to make space for and the other provinces had this position filled. Now however if relegation is blocked for five years in the premiership he may want to move to Ulster even for less money or he'll spend the next chunk of his career in the second tier in England. If this ring fencing decision doesn't happen soon it may be too late and Ulster will have an out half from somewhere but I think it'd be great for Madigan and Ulster if he could go there and Leinster keep the two lads are there now. But that would depend on what the English decide and what salary he'd accept of course. But that would be my preferred outcome.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by rodders on Mon 30 Apr 2018, 10:14 am

Madigan won't be back because he's an average player getting a fortune in the second tier in England. Any of the provinces would be crazy to match his wages.

A completely missed point is that the IRFU can't encourage any player to move as the provinces can't bid against each other. So with that in mind anyone that moves it is their own choice.

A lot of debate around about a non story - Ulster approach the IRFU to look at bringing in an NIE fly half and they explore the IE options first. Solving an issue Joe has with his no2 fly half needing game time and Ulster needing a 10 is a no brainer but sounds like it didn't suit Carbury so that is the end of it.

The bigger story is Munster losing Grobler. A really stupid decision by the IRFU.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by The Great Aukster on Mon 30 Apr 2018, 1:56 pm

Madigan is 29 and has two years left on his contract with Bristol. When he moved from Bordeaux, Ulster needed a 10 but couldn't afford him. If Madigan had really wanted to come back to Ireland he could have done so, but now with so much younger competition, why would he take a pay cut now?

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Pot Hale on Mon 30 Apr 2018, 2:21 pm

rodders wrote:Madigan won't be back because he's an average player getting a fortune in the second tier in England. Any of the provinces would be crazy to match his wages.

A completely missed point is that the IRFU can't encourage any player to move as the provinces can't bid against each other. So with that in mind anyone that moves it is their own choice.

A lot of debate around about a non story - Ulster approach the IRFU to look at bringing in an NIE fly half and they explore the IE options first. Solving an issue Joe has with his no2 fly half needing game time and Ulster needing a 10 is a no brainer but sounds like it didn't suit Carbury so that is the end of it.

The bigger story is Munster losing Grobler. A really stupid decision by the IRFU.


Grobler contract was agreed in advance as a one-year deal because Beirne was coming in. Now that he's suddenly come good at the end of season, there's question marks around why he's leaving. Munster already have Kleyn on their books, Fardy at Leinster. We need to develop more home grown locks not import them.
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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Intotouch on Wed 02 May 2018, 5:18 am

The Great Aukster wrote:Madigan is 29 and has two years left on his contract with Bristol. When he moved from Bordeaux, Ulster needed a 10 but couldn't afford him. If Madigan had really wanted to come back to Ireland he could have done so, but now with so much younger competition, why would he take a pay cut now?

Maybe I have the timing wrong but about a year ago Madigan was in Ireland telling people that he'd love to come back. Since this would obviously involve a pay cut I assume that he was willing to make that sacrifice to be back playing for Ireland again.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by The Great Aukster on Wed 02 May 2018, 10:11 pm

Intotouch wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Madigan is 29 and has two years left on his contract with Bristol. When he moved from Bordeaux, Ulster needed a 10 but couldn't afford him. If Madigan had really wanted to come back to Ireland he could have done so, but now with so much younger competition, why would he take a pay cut now?

Maybe I have the timing wrong but about a year ago Madigan was in Ireland telling people that he'd love to come back. Since this would obviously involve a pay cut I assume that he was willing to make that sacrifice to be back playing for Ireland again.

Why would it "obviously involve a pay cut"? Did Sexton and Hart take pay cuts and make sacrifices just to play in Ireland?

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by Intotouch on Thu 03 May 2018, 1:01 am

The Great Aukster wrote:
Intotouch wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:Madigan is 29 and has two years left on his contract with Bristol. When he moved from Bordeaux, Ulster needed a 10 but couldn't afford him. If Madigan had really wanted to come back to Ireland he could have done so, but now with so much younger competition, why would he take a pay cut now?

Maybe I have the timing wrong but about a year ago Madigan was in Ireland telling people that he'd love to come back. Since this would obviously involve a pay cut I assume that he was willing to make that sacrifice to be back playing for Ireland again.

Why would it "obviously involve a pay cut"? Did Sexton and Hart take pay cuts and make sacrifices just to play in Ireland?

A private businessman paid for a chunk of Sexton's salary which is how the IRFU could afford to lure him back from Racing. Maybe there's someone else out there who'd like to pay part of Madigan's salary but he's not the star that Sexton is so I doubt that this is the case. Hence I doubt that the union is going to be able to match his current salary at Bristol. As I understand it the union couldn't match the type of money being offered to him by foreign clubs a couple of years ago which is why he left in the first place. That and the fact that he was second choice out half at Leinster when Leinster returned and wanted to be the first choice again and play more rugby. So, given this scenario, if he came back he'd have to take a pay cut. Unless a private citizen once again steps up to generously bump up what the union could pay.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by The Great Aukster on Thu 03 May 2018, 2:55 pm

Madigan went to France for a better money offer, and to prove (maybe to himself) that he was a starting rather than a cover player - at least the money bit was achieved. Saying he wanted to return to Ireland is all well and good but also a fairly typical agent stunt to stir the market a bit.
In reality he signed for an English club for more money than he would have been offered in Ireland, so it's not a ringing endorsement of his willingness to make sacrifices.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by thebandwagonsociety on Thu 03 May 2018, 3:14 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:Madigan went to France for a better money offer, and to prove (maybe to himself) that he was a starting rather than a cover player - at least the money bit was achieved. Saying he wanted to return to Ireland is all well and good but also a fairly typical agent stunt to stir the market a bit.
In reality he signed for an English club for more money than he would have been offered in Ireland, so it's not a ringing endorsement of his willingness to make sacrifices.

Indeed he signed for a championship club for more money. It can't be argued that he has in any way been stretched and developed as a player during a season of running a side with vastly superior players against partly-amateur opposition.

Words are cheap. It would only ever be in his interest to claim he wants to get back to Ireland and represent Ireland. It makes the argument in any negotiations that his agent has that he is a Test quality flyhalf. If he was ever to claim that he didn't want to come back, he's limiting his options and removing a negotiating chip from the table.

In reality he couldn't beat out Gopperth for the starting position, saw Sexton returning in front of him and probably looked behind him at Byrne/Carberry thinking they could compete at the other end. He had to move when he did as to stay any longer could have seriously impacted his earning potential.

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by clivemcl on Fri 04 May 2018, 5:28 pm

I would bet money that if Carberry goes to Ulster, Cooney will make teh WC squad along with him.

My question would be, if they hit it off and that partnership works for them and their Ireland chances, might Carberry stay?

Or will this be a 'loan' deal on paper? Will he still somehow be committed to or promised back to Leinster.

What guarantees would Leinster really have of him coming back once the agreed time was spent up north?

Who knows, i mean the feeling of your club not fighting to keep you, finding your career prosper with a new playing partnership, add in teh fact UR supporters are the BEST Wink
... could Ulster turn him??

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Re: IRFU control over players in the provinces what do we want and is it what we need

Post by geoff999rugby on Fri 04 May 2018, 6:18 pm

In the end it will be up to him.

Sexton and Kearney will be close to retirement - Sexton will be 34, Kearney 33

However he will still be competing against Bryne at 10 and Larmour at 15 so not easy.
I suspect he will go back but if McPhillips, Lowry and Curtis are a year on then it may not matter.
Given the small nature of next years Ulster squad they will all be getting game time - Curtis will play some games at 12 I reckon
Remember McPhillips has done ok but he is is considered the weakest of the three

By the way it is Carbery not Carberry


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