Scotland's 2018 Summer Tour: Darien Scheme 2.0

First topic message reminder :

Sunday 10th June 2018

Canada Vs Scotland

Sunday 17th June 2018

America Vs Scotland

Saturday 23rd June 2018

Argentina Vs Scotland



With an eye on the summer tour, whilst also keeping in mind the season isn't over for either of our pro teams - who would you "rest" for the summer tour and who would you bring along in their place?

I'd leave Russell, Price, WP Nel, Hogg, Dunbar, Barclay and Huw Jones purely because those guys have had extremely long seasons, are coming back from long term injuries and/or rarely (if ever) get a full pre-season with their clubs under their belts.

Dunbar is made of glass and could probably do with a summer of conditioning, same with WP Nel

Hogg, Jones and Russell have all had long seasons (lions tours/southern hemisphere seasons) and look a bit jaded.

Price is just off form and could do with some down time.

Barclay is getting on - would not like to injure our captain against America/Canada

With a world cup next year giving all of these guys a full pre-season could pay off in the long term.

Would also allow Townsend to have a closer look at Kinghorn, SHC/Horne (ideally take both and tell Fowles to f3ck off), Grigg, Chris Dean/Johnston/Bennett, Fagerson/Berghan/Mccalum, Bradbury.

Thoughts?

Leander wrote:I wonder if we'll see Strauss again for Scotland? He solves a lot of the ball carrying problems, but he and Toonie have apparently had a tiff.

Can't see it. He never replicated his club form for Scotland. Think he had one decent game but was largely anonymous. Also if he's fallen out with Toonie and is 32 this year, then he's going to struggle to get into the team, especially as he'll be about 33 when the WC starts. It's not old, but probably too old to try and force your way into the team, when you've not been considered for selection for a while.

I was thinking this about Carmichael at the weekend – he is incredibly athletic with a great skillset but also isn’t the biggest for an international lock. He could be a great club lock but being only 6ft 5 and with his frame I’m not sure he’ll ever really be big enough for an international class lock. If we were to make him big enough I think he’d have to sacrifice his natural athleticism which is a big part of his game.

I think he’d make a good back row and the competition is certainly less fierce there, so that may be his future.

Whatever happens they need to decide early on and stick with it – keep him as a lock or move him to backrow and leave him there to develop.

I've been really impressed with Carmichael this season, he runs great lines and has good speed and footwork - I could see him as an 8, in the mould of Bierne when he plays there.

Bradbury is also doing a very good job of tying down the 6 shirt - he is the type of player our backrow has been crying out for - especially now Cockers has got him doing more of the grunt work.

What are our options at blindside post-WC, Given Barclay will likely retire?

Bradbury, Fagerson, Ritchie, Crosbie, Wilson, Harley, Thomson (maybe), Gibbons (maybe). Anyone I've missed?

Lots of competition, but also quite a few guys who are in the mix for other backrow slots. Carmichael could be a very good option - a Carmichael, Bradbury, Watson backrow would have great balance. I'm just not sure I see him as a hard yards beats of a carrier that a lot of modern 8s tend to be.

Swinson is listed at 6'5 but I take that with a large amount of salt.

I would not mind moving Carmichael into a Henderson or Fardy sort of 6. The risk is turning him into the next Rob Harley or Al Kellock (a fast, slim 6'6 who can do everything except carry and underpowered at lock in the scrum; great club players, not really international class). Crosbie is another one who could come through in a similar mould or be turned into an 8. Ashe is being ignored as well (rightfully, due to injuries).

A back row of Bradbury/Watson/Denton with Hamilton, Wilson or M Fagerson on the bench could be the opener for the 6 nations next year. The problem with Wilson is that he is not necessarily the best player, but he is the leader of that pack. They look much better in attitude with him in.

It is way too early to think about 2023 when you think about attrition rates and guys who come through but..
Grunt - Bradbury, Denton (33; same age as Strauss is now), Carmichael, Crosbie, M Fagerson, Ashe (?), Wynne (?) Flockhart (?)
Fetchers - Watson, M Smith, Ritchie, Hamilton

There's no way Swinson is 6ft 5!

Hazel Sapling wrote:Swinson is listed at 6'5 but I take that with a large amount of salt.

I would not mind moving Carmichael into a Henderson or Fardy sort of 6. The risk is turning him into the next Rob Harley or Al Kellock (a fast, slim 6'6 who can do everything except carry and underpowered at lock in the scrum; great club players, not really international class). Crosbie is another one who could come through in a similar mould or be turned into an 8. Ashe is being ignored as well (rightfully, due to injuries).

A back row of Bradbury/Watson/Denton with Hamilton, Wilson or M Fagerson on the bench could be the opener for the 6 nations next year. The problem with Wilson is that he is not necessarily the best player, but he is the leader of that pack. They look much better in attitude with him in.

It is way too early to think about 2023 when you think about attrition rates and guys who come through but..
Grunt - Bradbury, Denton (33; same age as Strauss is now), Carmichael, Crosbie, M Fagerson, Ashe (?), Wynne (?) Flockhart (?)
Fetchers - Watson, M Smith, Ritchie, Hamilton

Is Matt Smith injured? Or out of favour?

I'd forgotten about Hamilton for blindside depth, he's a very handy option to have across the backrow.

Wilson's leadership can't be enough to keep him in the squad if he is not contributing in other ways. He has one good game at 8 per season, then goes missing for the rest of it. I thought Ritchie was very vocal v Canada, both with his players and the ref, from time to time. You can see he's a natural leader. Plays hard, too, and gives away about 100% fewer dim penalties than Wilson.

Also, I don't think Al Kellock was ever fast!

RDW_Scotland wrote:There's no way Swinson is 6ft 5!

I stood next to Swinson at a set of traffic lights in Glasgow a few years ago, I am 6'2 and he wasn't very much taller than I am - there is absolutely no way he is 6'5.

EST wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:There's no way Swinson is 6ft 5!

I stood next to Swinson at a set of traffic lights in Glasgow a few years ago, I am 6'2 and he wasn't very much taller than I am - there is absolutely no way he is 6'5.

I'm assuming then that if Swinson is listed at 6.5 and potentially isn't, then Carmichael, who is also listed as 6.5 likely isn't.

EWT Spoons wrote:

EST wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:There's no way Swinson is 6ft 5!

I stood next to Swinson at a set of traffic lights in Glasgow a few years ago, I am 6'2 and he wasn't very much taller than I am - there is absolutely no way he is 6'5.

I'm assuming then that if Swinson is listed at 6.5 and potentially isn't, then Carmichael, who is also listed as 6.5 likely isn't.

I saw a photo from just after the Canada game where Carmichael is standing level with Kinghorn, who is definitely 6'5''

EWT Spoons wrote:

EST wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:There's no way Swinson is 6ft 5!

I stood next to Swinson at a set of traffic lights in Glasgow a few years ago, I am 6'2 and he wasn't very much taller than I am - there is absolutely no way he is 6'5.

I'm assuming then that if Swinson is listed at 6.5 and potentially isn't, then Carmichael, who is also listed as 6.5 likely isn't.

Carmichael does look tall. Whether that is a function of being slimmer?

Anyone got a squad photo for reckless speculation?

EWT Spoons wrote:

EST wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:There's no way Swinson is 6ft 5!

I stood next to Swinson at a set of traffic lights in Glasgow a few years ago, I am 6'2 and he wasn't very much taller than I am - there is absolutely no way he is 6'5.

I'm assuming then that if Swinson is listed at 6.5 and potentially isn't, then Carmichael, who is also listed as 6.5 likely isn't.

When you see him standing next to the likes of Gilchrist and co he looks around 6ft 5. Swinson I suspect is closer to 6ft 4.

Not overly scientific but there you go!

Hazel Sapling wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:

EST wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:There's no way Swinson is 6ft 5!

I stood next to Swinson at a set of traffic lights in Glasgow a few years ago, I am 6'2 and he wasn't very much taller than I am - there is absolutely no way he is 6'5.

I'm assuming then that if Swinson is listed at 6.5 and potentially isn't, then Carmichael, who is also listed as 6.5 likely isn't.

Carmichael does look tall. Whether that is a function of being slimmer?

Anyone got a squad photo for reckless speculation?

I photo I referred to is on the SRU twitter feed, some way down the stream. I can't link to it cos I'm new.

Leander wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:

EST wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:There's no way Swinson is 6ft 5!

I stood next to Swinson at a set of traffic lights in Glasgow a few years ago, I am 6'2 and he wasn't very much taller than I am - there is absolutely no way he is 6'5.

I'm assuming then that if Swinson is listed at 6.5 and potentially isn't, then Carmichael, who is also listed as 6.5 likely isn't.

Carmichael does look tall. Whether that is a function of being slimmer?

Anyone got a squad photo for reckless speculation?

I photo I referred to is on the SRU twitter feed, some way down the stream. I can't link to it cos I'm new.

Is this the photo you're referring to, Leander? https://twitter.com/Scotlandteam/status/1005690691152797696

It's a bit late, but welcome to the madhouse!

IanBru wrote:

Leander wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:

EST wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:There's no way Swinson is 6ft 5!

I stood next to Swinson at a set of traffic lights in Glasgow a few years ago, I am 6'2 and he wasn't very much taller than I am - there is absolutely no way he is 6'5.

I'm assuming then that if Swinson is listed at 6.5 and potentially isn't, then Carmichael, who is also listed as 6.5 likely isn't.

Carmichael does look tall. Whether that is a function of being slimmer?

Anyone got a squad photo for reckless speculation?

I photo I referred to is on the SRU twitter feed, some way down the stream. I can't link to it cos I'm new.

Is this the photo you're referring to, Leander?
It's a bit late, but welcome to the madhouse!

Cheers!

There's another one elsewhere on that feed with Gilchrist holding the trophy, that's the one I was thinking of.

Re that photo, Google tells me Ritchie is 6'3''...

Carmichael must have put on 10 kg in the last year, he really looks like he has filled out now and the way he is playing it shows. Again he is a second row in the Toonie mode, very skilful and mobile. He will never be the biggest lock, but may well make up for it in other ways.

He has already jumped ahead of others in the lock queue this year and his star seems to be on the ascendancy. Hopefully he will get a start next weekend and carry on the good work.

Re the photo to try figure out Carmichael's height!

Has anyone noticed the horrendous permatan on young Adam Hastings? With he and Ali Price in the team, the Weegies really can no longer try to pretend than Edinburgh are the team of cosmetic using nancies!

Leander wrote:

IanBru wrote:

Leander wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:

EST wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:There's no way Swinson is 6ft 5!

I stood next to Swinson at a set of traffic lights in Glasgow a few years ago, I am 6'2 and he wasn't very much taller than I am - there is absolutely no way he is 6'5.

I'm assuming then that if Swinson is listed at 6.5 and potentially isn't, then Carmichael, who is also listed as 6.5 likely isn't.

Carmichael does look tall. Whether that is a function of being slimmer?

Anyone got a squad photo for reckless speculation?

I photo I referred to is on the SRU twitter feed, some way down the stream. I can't link to it cos I'm new.

Is this the photo you're referring to, Leander?
It's a bit late, but welcome to the madhouse!

Cheers!

There's another one elsewhere on that feed with Gilchrist holding the trophy, that's the one I was thinking of.

Re that photo, Google tells me Ritchie is 6'3''...

Wiki reckons he's 6.4, based on how close in height the photo makes Carmichael & Ritchie look, that would make sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_Ritchie

https://twitter.com/EdinburghRugby/status/1005752449200742400?s=09

I suspect this is the picture. They're not standing right next to each other but he looks slightly taller than Kinghorn. I think 6ft 5 is probably about right!

RDW_Scotland wrote:https://twitter.com/EdinburghRugby/status/1005752449200742400?s=09

I suspect this is the picture. They're not standing right next to each other but he looks slightly taller than Kinghorn. I think 6ft 5 is probably about right!

Boys, boys you're being very amateur about this: legend has it that Carlos Billardo, ex-Argentina Wendyball coach, was at a wedding with his wife and when the jigging started kept asking his wife to dance with the Brazilian striker Careca. When Mrs Billardo finally asked why he said, "They always put him on the edge of the wall at free kicks. I want to see how tall he really is."


So, get the Bru and Hagia Sophia to attend a social gathering with young Mr Carmichael. If she cuts a rug with him and doesn't need to hunker doon to look him in the eye then he is at least 6 foot seven.

jimbopip wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:https://twitter.com/EdinburghRugby/status/1005752449200742400?s=09

I suspect this is the picture. They're not standing right next to each other but he looks slightly taller than Kinghorn. I think 6ft 5 is probably about right!

Boys, boys you're being very amateur about this: legend has it that Carlos Billardo, ex-Argentina Wendyball coach, was at a wedding with his wife and when the jigging started kept asking his wife to dance with the Brazilian striker Careca. When Mrs Billardo finally asked why he said, "They always put him on the edge of the wall at free kicks. I want to see how tall he really is."


So, get the Bru and Hagia Sophia to attend a social gathering with young Mr Carmichael. If she cuts a rug with him and doesn't need to hunker doon to look him in the eye then he is at least 6 foot seven.

I have no idea what goes through your mind at times but it provides endless entertainment!

Impressed with the performance, backs didn't cut loose but a powerful performance from the pack.

Been wanting to see Bradbury & Denton together for a while, gives us far more physicality of the gain-line.

Toolis, Gilchrist & Ritchie were all excellent imo.  

Carmichael, McCallum & Price all had an impact from the bench.

Fingers crossed Taylor is fit, would love to see him paired with Bennett in the midfield.

A rumour kicking around that Danny Wilson might become the next Scotland forwards coach instead of going to Wasps.

That would be quite a catch, though hard to see it unless he has some release clause, as he has already signed up for that job and can't imagine that Wasps would be keen to lose him this close to the start of the season.

Who is Danny Wilson?

Apparently Carl Hogg is in charge of the lineout and mauls for this tour - so far so good on that front!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Who is Danny Wilson?

Apparently Carl Hogg is in charge of the lineout and mauls for this tour - so far so good on that front!

DW is or was coach of Cardiff Blues, a very highly rated younger coach, who did very well on limited resources in the last job. Definitely a coach on the up and presumably took the Wasps job as a career progression, rather than struggling on with an underfunded team. You could see that an international appointment could be appealing as well as the chance to work with someone like Toonie.

Not sure an up and coming younger coach is what we need so close to the world cup, but Toonie is never one to do things by the book so it may work out.

That Danny Wilson rumour is doing the rounds on twitter.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Not sure an up and coming younger coach is what we need so close to the world cup, but Toonie is never one to do things by the book so it may work out.

Up and coming probably does not do him justice. He has been a head coach in his own right and performed miracles with that Blues team. I am sure if their funding had matched his ambition, then he would never have moved on. When I said up and coming, I meant that he is someone who could easily go right to the top of the coaching tree.

He could be a very exciting appointment.

Yeah I've just looked him up and read the chat on Twitter - sounds like he's worked wonders with the Blues. International rugby is a very different level so there would be a risk, but sounds like he will have earned his place at the top level at least.

I'd take Danny Wilson over Carl Hogg in a heartbeat, that would be a great appointment!

That would be a great appointment, don't like stealing coaches from another team when he's just signed though - certainly wouldn't appreciate it if someone "stole" one of our newly signed coaches!

But I suppose its stealing from big spenders like Wasps so it's not so bad

If his methods include rabbit hunting in the Brecon beacons we're on to a winner

NeilyBroon wrote:If his methods include rabbit hunting in the Brecon beacons we're on to a winner

I read that Big Gav is travelling to USA for Saturday's game; I take this as proof positive that young Hastings will be starting.

Do I get my Young Sherlock badge now?

Gold star for Jim.

Quote from a Cardiff-supporting friend of mine re Danny Wilson - 'If he gets the Scotland job, you'll be lucky to have him. We were gutted when he left'.

Charlie Shiel called up to replace the injured Ali Price - is he really going to make his Scotland debut before his Edinburgh one??

RDW_Scotland wrote:Charlie Shiel called up to replace the injured Ali Price - is he really going to make his Scotland debut before his Edinburgh one??

Why didn't they call up Velacott? Surely worth a shot!

I suspect it is based on who is fit and not on their holidays - Shiel has been training with the 7s, Vellacott has probably only just returned to pre-season this week after a 5 week break.

I would also suspect Sheil will be going to just experience it, and will not really be in with a shout of troubling the selectors

Vellacott may not want a Scotland cap

I dunno - one more injury to a 9 and he'll be on the bench!

Leander wrote:Vellacott may not want a Scotland cap

Very true, maybe he's already been asked.

Sorry but Price isn't a great loss. I rate Wee Horne far higher than Price.

First thing Ali Price did when he came on against Canada was to take a quick tap penalty, run 5 metres forward and the stopped and get himself tackled.

He had the look of "now why the hell did I just do that" on his face as soon as he'd done it!

RDW_Scotland wrote:I dunno - one more injury to a 9 and he'll be on the bench!

True.

I really hope not though, as he's not played a minute of competitive rugby in 15s so I can't imagine he is anywhere near ready for a full international yet.

EWT Spoons wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:I dunno - one more injury to a 9 and he'll be on the bench!

True.  

I really hope not though, as he's not played a minute of competitive rugby in 15s so I can't imagine he is anywhere near ready for a full international yet.

Was the same situation with Ashe when he was called up on Summer tour and he did okay. I think more and more now young players are better prepared for international debuts. Just look at Harris who has had plenty of starts for Newcastle but couldn't catch a ball on his debut, I think it's definitely becoming less relevant than it has been.

Sheil gets a good write-up and I'd be happy to see him play! It's not as if these games have significance or importance anything more than symbolic and depth-building anyway.

Shiel looked the business at u20s. Good, quick service, very lively from the base of the ruck, managed his forwards well. He'll be a hell of a player if he carries on that development curve. That said, a hell of a step up for him if he does get called upon. Interesting that they didn't choose Fowles or Kennedy or Pyrgos.

Leander wrote:Shiel looked the business at u20s. Good, quick service, very lively from the base of the ruck, managed his forwards well. He'll be a hell of a player if he carries on that development curve. That said, a hell of a step up for him if he does get called upon. Interesting that they didn't choose Fowles or Kennedy or Pyrgos.

Relieved they didn't pick Fowles, HP can feel a little hard done by as he was showing good form towards the end of the season but that's a drop in the ocean of recent poor form. He has next season to up his game. I'd imagine Horne Jr will be first choice going forward for Glasgow.

NeilyBroon wrote:

Leander wrote:Shiel looked the business at u20s. Good, quick service, very lively from the base of the ruck, managed his forwards well. He'll be a hell of a player if he carries on that development curve. That said, a hell of a step up for him if he does get called upon. Interesting that they didn't choose Fowles or Kennedy or Pyrgos.

Relieved they didn't pick Fowles, HP can feel a little hard done by as he was showing good form towards the end of the season but that's a drop in the ocean of recent poor form. He has next season to up his game. I'd imagine Horne Jr will be first choice going forward for Glasgow.

I wouldn't count Price out. He's on a poor run of form, but he's a very good player.