England summer thread - 2018

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England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 12 May 2018, 12:02 am

First test squad is announced next week, and the rumour is Nick Gubbins will be selected to open, and this would be the prospective team...

Cook
Gubbins
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow
Livingstone
Woakes/Wood
Broad
Leach
Anderson

With James Vince as 12th man

What do we reckon?
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by guildfordbat on Sat 12 May 2018, 12:47 am

Interesting that, Olly.

Livingstone seems a makeweight. Happy to be wrong but not convinced by his inclusion. If he is good enough to play, shouldn't he be at 5? That would allow Stokes to bat at 6 which is surely his more natural spot. Joe Clarke would be a better bet in my book.

Vince as 12th man seems a bit of a cop out. Either back him and give him at least two more Tests or sack him. Don't keep him dangling on the fringes of the side. I see the line up you expect has Root at 3 in place of Vince.

I've no issue with Gubbins being given an opportunity to open. Stoneman's CC form this season has been poor and continued in the same vein today. Simon of Surrey made an impassioned plea with some decent supporting points for Burns' call up on last week's Surrey match thread although I'm less convinced. [I mean that exactly as I say - I don't oppose any call up for Burns, I'm just not so sure about it.] Someone else who I thought might be in with a chance of a recall is Jennings - an unbeaten 50 today following a ton last week.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by LivinginItaly on Sat 12 May 2018, 8:00 am

Yes given the form of Jennings i would probably opt for him in the top 3 with cook and Gubbins. Why? Because in my opinion I would prefer Root at 4 instead of 3 and the rest all seem one place to high in the order (Malan, stokes especially).

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Jetty on Sun 13 May 2018, 12:46 am

Like to see

Cook Burns Gubbins Root Foakes Stokes Bairstow wk Broad Leach Tongue Anderson

Time to get a tall young fast bowler in. Won't happen though.
Also like 3 openers at the top of the order but they are all left-handers.

Maybe it will be Cook Gubbins Vince Root Malan Stokes Bairstow Broad Leach Finn Anderson.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by KP_fan on Sun 13 May 2018, 10:13 am

Is Moeen ali, dumped for good?
His record in Eng is quite good with bat and ball?

How many tests does Pak have
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 13 May 2018, 1:00 pm

Another hundred for Joe Clarke yesterday and a five wicket haul for Sam Curran and Olly Stone this morning. Josh Tongue on eight wickets in the match against Essex too
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 14 May 2018, 11:19 am

Gubbins is a very left field selection. He didnt do much with the Lions and has only played one county game this season. Whilst he was the star of the North/South 50 over games that doesnt really suggest hes the answer to Englands issues having anyone who can stick around in the top 3 on English wickets.
Burns I agree is putting his hand up ...but as an opener? No.
As with previous selections though I guess it comes down to if not him then who? Id expected England to limp on with Stoneman, although Ive never really thought he was good enough in the first place. A poor County season so far justifies looking at other options.
Its a positive if they do choose to look at longer temr devleopment options over another journeyman stop gap (and Jennings isnt doing enough to demand a recall). On top of that Hameeds form is so bad that hes way out of the picture for at least a year.
Same old story...someone has to play.

Theres no way Stokes is a top 5 bat for England, especially going in off the back of a pretty quiet IPL and no first class cricket, but a fit Stokes makes a huge difference to look of the side.

As for Moeen ... he had a fabulous summer last year and really seem to have turned a corner, but the old demons resurfaced pretty quickly over the winter. Hes a mentay weak player who is prone to wild fluctations in form with the bat and ball, and isnt that talented in wither discipline. Whilst he showed some flutters of a return of confidence in the limited over games he still looked shot, and bench warming in IPL hasnt exactly helped his cause in terms of getting a recall for the tests. As with Stoneman his selection owed as much to Englands lack of other options as it did his own ability. Leach at least is a proper spinner and has a fantastic wicket taking record on English pitches, albeit at county level.
I dont think Moeens test career is over, and hes a very good option to have should they wanta second spinner and looking ahead to the winter. But Leach is the "man in" and fully deserved his cap off the back of performances for the Lions. By his standards its been a quiet summer so far, but hes the best wicket taking spin option England have and not useless as a low order bastman and fielder.
Assuming Stokes is fit England have no reason to pick Moeen just to balance teh side which help him keep his place previously.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by jimbohammers on Mon 14 May 2018, 12:12 pm

Leach has injured his hand in the current game against Hampshire, so might be one to keep an eye on.

If he's fit i would probably go:

Cook
Burns
Vince
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow
Woakes
Broad
Leach
Anderson

Tempted to keep Stoneman in there but i think you have to reward form and that's why Burns is in.
Not convinced by Livingstone.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 14 May 2018, 1:37 pm

Confirmed broken left thumb for Jack Leach, puts him out of contention for this test squad announced tomorrow!

Would imagine they have to bring Moeen back into the fold now
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Beer on Mon 14 May 2018, 1:51 pm

Olly,

What do you make of the ECB's covering up of the Wilkerson affair? Is Strauss politicking?

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 14 May 2018, 2:36 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Confirmed broken left thumb for Jack Leach, puts him out of contention for this test squad announced tomorrow!

Would imagine they have to bring Moeen back into the fold now

Any news on when Crane will be fit? Im assuming not in time to stop this happening.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 14 May 2018, 2:40 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Confirmed broken left thumb for Jack Leach, puts him out of contention for this test squad announced tomorrow!

Would imagine they have to bring Moeen back into the fold now

Any news on when Crane will be fit? Im assuming not in time to stop this happening.

Crane is scheduled to be back fit for around about now (originally the start of the one day cup stuff), but hasn't played yet in his return. Highly doubt he'll even be in their thinking
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 14 May 2018, 2:44 pm

Beer wrote:Olly,

What do you make of the ECB's covering up of the Wilkerson affair? Is Strauss politicking?

Disgusting from Wilkerson. Fully behind Strauss and co
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by KP_fan on Mon 14 May 2018, 3:36 pm

Gooseberry wrote:

Theres no way Stokes is a top 5 bat for England, especially going in off the back of a pretty quiet IPL and no first class cricket, but a fit Stokes makes a huge difference to look of the side.

As for Moeen ... he had a fabulous summer last year and really seem to have turned a corner, but the old demons resurfaced pretty quickly over the winter. Hes a mentay weak player who is prone to wild fluctations in form with the bat and ball, and isnt that talented in wither discipline. .

I think Moeen will be in the starting 11 of the first test vs. Pak provided he is not indisposed due to injury
Eng will convince themselves, for a variety of analyzed & over-analyzed reasons, that his batting is essential
such as not prime form of Stokes
lack of solidity in the middle order

In my view he deserves to be in not for those over-analyzed reasons but simply because he has delivered with bat & bowl in Eng for last may series
In spinning conditions, where he has to lead the attack, he is found wanting

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Beer on Mon 14 May 2018, 4:43 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Beer wrote:Olly,

What do you make of the ECB's covering up of the Wilkerson affair? Is Strauss politicking?

Disgusting from Wilkerson. Fully behind Strauss and co

Heard support for both parties on this one.

On Wilkersons side, he's got good averages, bowls some good leftie spin and can swing the willow when required. Can see why Strauss has issues with him. He's outspoken, and he's not as dedicated as he should be for all his talent. Comparisons to Graham Onions have been ill received.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by JDizzle on Mon 14 May 2018, 6:07 pm

An unbeaten double ton to save a game will always help! Vince has put down his marker.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 15 May 2018, 9:29 am

KP_fan wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:  

Theres no way Stokes is a top 5 bat for England, especially going in off the back of a pretty quiet IPL and no first class cricket, but a fit Stokes makes a huge difference to look of the side.

As for Moeen ... he had a fabulous summer last year and really seem to have turned a corner, but the old demons resurfaced pretty quickly over the winter. Hes a mentay weak player who is prone to wild fluctations in form with the bat and ball, and isnt that talented in wither discipline. .

I think Moeen will be in the starting 11 of the first test vs. Pak provided he is not indisposed due to injury
Eng will convince themselves, for a variety of analyzed & over-analyzed reasons, that his batting is essential
such as not prime form of Stokes
lack of solidity in the middle order

In my view he deserves to be in not for those over-analyzed reasons but simply because he has delivered with bat & bowl in Eng for last may series
In spinning conditions, where he has to lead the attack, he is found wanting


Two spinners were selected ahead of him at the end of the winter. They are now both injured. That is the only reason he will be playing for England in the first test. Ed Smith is coming in with a clean slate in terms of selections and doesnt cvarry the baggage of "loyalty" to players like Moeen who has been given endless chances but never performed consistently to a level that justifies the number of caps he has.
Overall his home record isnt anything special. Hes had two good home series with the ball ( 2014 India and 2017 SA ) and one good summer with the bat (2016). The wickets have come when teams have tried to hit him rather than through craft guile and skill, and hes needed dedicated support staff to tell him how and where to bowl when acheiving this.

Ideally England would be looking to the future and continuing to develope Crane and Leach who are both credible test bowlers for the long term. Moeen may (hopefuly) will have a decent summer again, but hes hardly a name thats going to concern the Pakistan batsmen. 50 tests and averaging over 40 with the ball shows hes not got enough quality and consitency to be the long term answer for an England team thats really struggled to take 20 wickets away from home. As a stop gap hes not that bad, even if hes goiung to come in cold having hardly played in the IPL.

The other option is Liam Dawson. A similalrly limited player whos a pretty mediocre bowler and less of a batsman than Moeen. In his favour he offers a different challenge with the ball ( left armer) and could combine well with Root. Hes had a decent county season so far and was capped last summer in tests. the only real thing I see he has over Moeen though is that hes been playing red ball cricket, I persoanly dont think hes a significantly better bowler and isnt in the same bracket with the bat.

Maybe Rashids kicking himself now. No IPL contract, no easy pay day in county cricket, no chance of taking advantage of the injuries and resurecting his test career. Lots of time with the X Box and his regrets.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by robbo277 on Tue 15 May 2018, 9:48 am

So if you go with the last team of:

Cook, Stoneman, Vince, Root, Malan, Stokes, Bairstow, Broad, Wood, Leach, Anderson

Leach is out so you need a 4th bowler.

While Malan was looking the best of the three junior batsmen in the top 6 at the end of the winter, there were questions over Stoneman and Vince. Vince may have answered his doubters with early season runs, but Stoneman's form isn't great, which potentially opens the door for Jennings to return or Burns to get a go.

In terms of the fourth bowler, in May in England could we go with 5 seamers and have Root and Malan as slower options? It'd be silly to prepare turning tracks against Pakistan. If so, we open the door for Woakes or possibly Jake Ball who has been in the wickets, or possibly we could trial someone who is a bit more raw and possibly offers a point of difference?

The other option would be finding another spinner. Would it be too early to throw Virdi in to a Pakistan team who are going to be pretty handy against spin? If so, your probably turning back to Moeen, unless you go really left field and pick someone like Danny Briggs.

I think there should be a question mark over Wood, especially if we bring in a specialist spinner and only have 3 frontline seamers + Stokes. In 21 innings he's taken 28 wickets @ 41.82 with a best of 3/39. He needs to start delivering more if he's going to maintain his place in the team.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by robbo277 on Tue 15 May 2018, 9:51 am

Gooseberry wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:  

Theres no way Stokes is a top 5 bat for England, especially going in off the back of a pretty quiet IPL and no first class cricket, but a fit Stokes makes a huge difference to look of the side.

As for Moeen ... he had a fabulous summer last year and really seem to have turned a corner, but the old demons resurfaced pretty quickly over the winter. Hes a mentay weak player who is prone to wild fluctations in form with the bat and ball, and isnt that talented in wither discipline. .

I think Moeen will be in the starting 11 of the first test vs. Pak provided he is not indisposed due to injury
Eng will convince themselves, for a variety of analyzed & over-analyzed reasons, that his batting is essential
such as not prime form of Stokes
lack of solidity in the middle order

In my view he deserves to be in not for those over-analyzed reasons but simply because he has delivered with bat & bowl in Eng for last may series
In spinning conditions, where he has to lead the attack, he is found wanting


Two spinners were selected ahead of him at the end of the winter. They are now both injured. That is the only reason he will be playing for England in the first test. Ed Smith is coming in with a clean slate in terms of selections and doesnt cvarry the baggage of "loyalty" to players like Moeen who has been given endless chances but never performed consistently to a level that justifies the number of caps he has.
Overall his home record isnt anything special. Hes had two good home series with the ball ( 2014 India and 2017 SA ) and one good summer with the bat (2016). The wickets have come when teams have tried to hit him rather than through craft  guile and skill, and hes needed dedicated support staff to tell him how and where to bowl when acheiving this.

Ideally England would be looking to the future and continuing to develope Crane and Leach who are both credible test bowlers for the long term. Moeen may (hopefuly) will have a decent summer again, but hes hardly a name thats going to concern the Pakistan batsmen.  50 tests and averaging over 40 with the ball shows hes not got enough quality and consitency to be the long term answer for an England team thats really struggled to take  20 wickets away from home. As a stop gap hes not that bad, even if hes goiung to come in cold having hardly played in the IPL.

The other option is Liam Dawson. A similalrly limited player whos a pretty mediocre bowler and less of a batsman than Moeen. In his favour he offers a different challenge with the ball ( left armer) and could combine well with Root. Hes had a decent county season so far and was capped last summer in tests. the only real thing I see he has over Moeen though is that hes been playing red ball cricket, I persoanly dont think hes a significantly better bowler and isnt in the same bracket with the bat.

Maybe Rashids kicking himself now. No IPL contract, no easy pay day in county cricket, no chance of taking advantage of the injuries and resurecting his test career. Lots of time with the X Box and his regrets.

I forgot about Dawson, and he could be a decent stopgap for this series.

Moeen came in as a batsman who bowls then became a bowler who batted a bit, and it was never quite clear what was keeping him in the team, other than perhaps a dearth of spin-bowling options. I think his best bet is to focus on his batting and to be a second spinning option, but to make the team like that his batting would have to merit a place in the top 5. He's a good counter-attacker, but I don't think he has the allround game to play in the top 5.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 15 May 2018, 12:03 pm

Beer wrote:Olly,

What do you make of the ECB's covering up of the Wilkerson affair? Is Strauss politicking?

sorry for being thick, but who is Wilkerson?

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 15 May 2018, 12:58 pm

Buttler is in to bat at 7

YES! Love Jos <3

Don't care that he has barely played red ball cricket, coming in at 7 and given free reign to take the attack to the opposition is worth a go - he's one of, if not England's most talented batsmen, better than continuing with proven failures for me
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by jimbohammers on Tue 15 May 2018, 2:20 pm

Dawson is injured by the way, out for at least 6 weeks

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 15 May 2018, 2:37 pm

Cricinfo reporting Dom Bess will be selected as the spinner, and James Vince will miss out altogether.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Marky on Tue 15 May 2018, 3:11 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Beer wrote:Olly,

What do you make of the ECB's covering up of the Wilkerson affair? Is Strauss politicking?

sorry for being thick, but who is Wilkerson?

Imagine being a Cricket fan, and not knowing who Wilkerson is laughing

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by LivinginItaly on Tue 15 May 2018, 3:19 pm

squad announced: Cook, Stoneman, Malan, Root, Bairstow, Buttler, Stokes, Woakes, Wood, Bess, Broad, Anderson.

Would appear a straight choice between Wood or Woakes to complete the 11.

A bit of a strange selection really.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by sirfredperry on Tue 15 May 2018, 3:39 pm

I would have had Ali playing. Is Bess going to take five-fors and hit 100s? I would have persevered with Vince, too. Or will they keep going back to him time after time (a la Ballance)?
   Mind you, the strangest selection is Ed Smith as selector. What's his qualification?

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by jimbohammers on Tue 15 May 2018, 3:53 pm

sirfredperry wrote:
   Mind you, the strangest selection is Ed Smith as selector. What's his qualification?

Strauss's mate.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 15 May 2018, 4:03 pm

Some way from the squad I would have chosen. A long way in the case of Buttler.

That said and as always, it's a game of opinions so we'll just have to wait and see what happens ....

Btw, I've also got no idea about the Wilkerson references.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by robbo277 on Tue 15 May 2018, 4:07 pm

sirfredperry wrote:I would have had Ali playing. Is Bess going to take five-fors and hit 100s? I would have persevered with Vince, too. Or will they keep going back to him time after time (a la Ballance)?
   Mind you, the strangest selection is Ed Smith as selector. What's his qualification?

It is a strange old squad.

Vince (despite an unbeaten double) dropped for Buttler is the big one, shifting Malan and Bairstow up 2 places each (around Root and Stokes, who don't move). It feels like a lot of juggling to get in a player on the back of his white ball form. I can only think he'll be told to play every innings like a T20 game and not worry too much about situation? Although there has been far too much of that from England recently, trying to use their white ball skills to hit their way out of trouble when things get tough.

Stoneman is also a little odd considering his form and considering how Vince was dispensed with.

Seamers are mainly as expected although Ball's early season form would have merited a look at least. Bess isn't a player I'm overly familiar with, but with Leach, Crane and Dawson out, Rashid retiring from the longer format and Ali out-of-favour and currently out the country that doesn't leave much. Possibly selected for his batting on the back of a 90 that got cited in an England article. Perhaps bat at 9 behind Woakes and look to bowl a few overs to rest and rotate the seamers? I guess we'll be looking for our 3 frontline seamers and Stokes to weigh in with the majority of the wickets.

Still no 90mph bowler or huge turner of the ball in there. Not saying we have the players available and are leaving them out, but it looks like a same-old-England bowling attack. Should hopefully be enough to regularly take wickets at home and with tours to Sri Lanka and West Indies in the summer may even be enough to get some results away from home too. Still big question marks over whether they could challenge the top teams away from home though.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by jimbohammers on Tue 15 May 2018, 4:18 pm

Bess has taken 1 wicket this season.
Young Virdi at Surrey... 17

I'm not saying Virdi should be called up but what is the point of CC form?

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Tue 15 May 2018, 4:26 pm

Buttler has done nothing to justify his test selection. A poor test record so far, and currently playing in the IPL - not four day cricket for his county. Bess an even odder selection. Still unconvinced by Mark Wood.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 15 May 2018, 4:59 pm

jimbohammers wrote:Bess has taken 1 wicket this season.
Young Virdi at Surrey... 17

I'm not saying Virdi should be called up but what is the point of CC form?

Jimbo - that's certainly a question your man Vince is entitled to ask after his match saving unbeaten double ton yesterday. He also scored 70 in his last Test innings.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 15 May 2018, 7:35 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
jimbohammers wrote:Bess has taken 1 wicket this season.
Young Virdi at Surrey... 17

I'm not saying Virdi should be called up but what is the point of CC form?

Jimbo - that's certainly a question your man Vince is entitled to ask after his match saving unbeaten double ton yesterday. He also scored 70 in his last Test innings.

I don't think Vince can have many arguments about being dropped, as soon as they decided to get Bairstow and Root up the order his fate for the moment was sealed. He's really competing with Malan for that #4 slot now, and after the winter Malan clearly is ahead in that battle.

The Buttler selection can obviously be criticised - but I and surely others must be able to see why they've done it, in that unique "7" slot they have. There's no denying his talent, and you could argue he was hastily jettisoned when he did get dropped originally anyways (and he did ok in that role in the two tests he played in India in 2016 also). Foakes can feel harshly done by, but if they aren't taking the gloves off Bairstow then I think Buttler shades it.

Bess is simply the next cab off the rank, to be honest I imagine unless he pulls up any trees, Leach will be back in when he's fit again. Could argue for Virdi, but I think he's more of a consideration for the winter tours if he continues his form.

For me the lucky man is Stoneman, both because he never nailed down his opening slot in the winter, he has also had a wretched start to the county season. He must be on an extremely short leash...
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by alfie on Tue 15 May 2018, 8:16 pm

I have been a little out of touch with the cricket - busy spotting deer on Exmoor etc-recently ; but picked up on this selection...First thought was "bizarre". Buttler as a bat ? At 7 ? picard

More reflective : First I have no problem with Bess. Might be up to it , might not : with Leach injured and Moeen not having pulled down any trees recently ,why not see what he has to offer ?
Wood surely carries the drinks ...no point in five pace men and I don't fancy a tail of Wood Broad Anderson and Bess.
Slightly surprised Stoneman holds his spot...He [i] really/i]needs a score. Burns knocking on that door....

Brings me back to Buttler. Why ? If he isn't to keep - and even if he were , why on earth would he be preferred to Foulkes ? - they must be taking him as one of the best six batsmen in England. Does anyone believe that ?
Yes he has talent . He might well smash a rapid seventy and help win a home Test against Pakistan ...but is he seriously going to become a fixture , home and away , at seven ? If he is , I think England has a big problem...

This team might well win next week. So might a number of possible lineups. But I struggle to see it as a first step on the road back to the top of the Test rankings. Bit disappointed in Ed Smith's opening offering...

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 15 May 2018, 8:18 pm

Olly - particularly coming from a Surrey perspective, agree with you about Stoneman and Virdi.

I would have been inclined to go with Moeen for a home series given his past success here and Leach's injury but understand what you say about Bess.

I'm certainly not blind to Vince's faults but feel it's remarkably tough and poor timing to bin him now following most recent scores of 70 and 200 not out in Test and Championship cricket respectively.

For ''that unique ''7'' slot'', I didn't feel Bairstow was doing too badly there. Buttler's call up seems not only left field but unconvincing and unoriginal.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by JDizzle on Tue 15 May 2018, 8:54 pm

alfie wrote:I have been a little out of touch with the cricket - busy spotting deer on Exmoor etc-recently ; but picked up on this selection...First thought was "bizarre". Buttler as a bat ? At 7 ? picard

More reflective : First I have no problem with Bess. Might be up to it , might not : with Leach injured and Moeen not having pulled down any trees recently ,why not see what he has to offer ?
Wood surely carries the drinks  ...no point in five pace men and I don't fancy a tail of Wood Broad Anderson and Bess.
Slightly surprised Stoneman holds his spot...He [i] really/i]needs a score. Burns knocking on that door....

Brings me back to Buttler. Why ?  If he isn't to keep - and even if he were , why on earth would he be preferred to Foulkes ?  - they must be taking him as one of the best six batsmen in England. Does anyone believe that ?
Yes he has talent . He might well smash a rapid seventy and help win a home Test against Pakistan ...but is he seriously going to become a fixture , home and away , at seven ? If he is , I think England has a big problem...

This team might well win next week. So might a number of possible lineups. But I struggle to see it as a first step on the road back to the top of the Test rankings. Bit disappointed in Ed Smith's opening offering...

Re. Bess, I agree. He is 100% ahead of Virdi in the pecking order. There is a balance to strike between picking people in form and just parachuting someone who has a couple of good games. Virdi obviously has huge talent, but Bess has 60 FC wickets at 22 and impressed on the Lions tour to the Windies this winter. Leach is injured, and I like that they haven't gone back to Moeen - he needs to earn his place, whether in the CC or at least in the ODI team. And one more thing, Bess would not be batting 11 in that line up! Probably 8, 9 if Woakes is in ahead of Wood which I would expect, and I would think they could get away with that if need be - albeit rather than it looking strong with Woakes/Bess/Broad/Anderson.

I'm a little disappointed they have stuck with Stoneman and discarded Vince. Vince has a much higher ceiling than Stoneman at Test level and if they are investing in a borderline player, I would have hoped it was him. There were mumblings that Vince would open, but these obviously turned out not to be true.

I like the Buttler selection - they've gambled on someone who they know can play/destroy international bowling than a complete newbie. Plus if Bairstow is to keep the gloves, then Buttler probably fits the mould better as a genuine counter attacking option than Foakes. Although their FC strike rates would suggest not as much as you would think! It is undoubtedly his last shot at Test level though.

And, I think slightly overlooked due to the shiny selections of Buttler and Bess, the fast bowling remains an issue. Broad and Anderson will do their thing in England, as they always do, and Woakes will be fine in English conditions again. Wood will play a couple of Tests and look better than his figures and we will be six months later on facing tours abroad with Jimmy/Broad 6 months older and a battery of right arm medium pacers again after that. Would have liked to see a wildcard in there - or Ball, who I think deserves a decent run in a friendlier start - but I understand that was made trickier by Bess debuting.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Beer on Wed 16 May 2018, 9:40 am

Marky wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Beer wrote:Olly,

What do you make of the ECB's covering up of the Wilkerson affair? Is Strauss politicking?

sorry for being thick, but who is Wilkerson?

Imagine being a Cricket fan, and not knowing who Wilkerson is laughing

Plays Regional Cricket down Cambridge way, highly rated, but apparently my source tells me Strauss and the ECB aren't massive fans of his social media presence (he's a bit of a douche by all accounts) and it's hampered his progression. There's a campaign in the area to get him into the Cambridge side and potentially a move after.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 16 May 2018, 9:53 am

JDizzle wrote:
alfie wrote:I have been a little out of touch with the cricket - busy spotting deer on Exmoor etc-recently ; but picked up on this selection...First thought was "bizarre". Buttler as a bat ? At 7 ? picard

More reflective : First I have no problem with Bess. Might be up to it , might not : with Leach injured and Moeen not having pulled down any trees recently ,why not see what he has to offer ?
Wood surely carries the drinks  ...no point in five pace men and I don't fancy a tail of Wood Broad Anderson and Bess.
Slightly surprised Stoneman holds his spot...He [i] really/i]needs a score. Burns knocking on that door....

Brings me back to Buttler. Why ?  If he isn't to keep - and even if he were , why on earth would he be preferred to Foulkes ?  - they must be taking him as one of the best six batsmen in England. Does anyone believe that ?
Yes he has talent . He might well smash a rapid seventy and help win a home Test against Pakistan ...but is he seriously going to become a fixture , home and away , at seven ? If he is , I think England has a big problem...

This team might well win next week. So might a number of possible lineups. But I struggle to see it as a first step on the road back to the top of the Test rankings. Bit disappointed in Ed Smith's opening offering...

Re. Bess, I agree. He is 100% ahead of Virdi in the pecking order. There is a balance to strike between picking people in form and just parachuting someone who has a couple of good games. Virdi obviously has huge talent, but Bess has 60 FC wickets at 22 and impressed on the Lions tour to the Windies this winter. Leach is injured, and I like that they haven't gone back to Moeen - he needs to earn his place, whether in the CC or at least in the ODI team. And one more thing, Bess would not be batting 11 in that line up! Probably 8, 9 if Woakes is in ahead of Wood which I would expect, and I would think they could get away with that if need be - albeit rather than it looking strong with Woakes/Bess/Broad/Anderson.

I'm a little disappointed they have stuck with Stoneman and discarded Vince. Vince has a much higher ceiling than Stoneman at Test level and if they are investing in a borderline player, I would have hoped it was him. There were mumblings that Vince would open, but these obviously turned out not to be true.

I like the Buttler selection - they've gambled on someone who they know can play/destroy international bowling than a complete newbie. Plus if Bairstow is to keep the gloves, then Buttler probably fits the mould better as a genuine counter attacking option than Foakes. Although their FC strike rates would suggest not as much as you would think! It is undoubtedly his last shot at Test level though.

And, I think slightly overlooked due to the shiny selections of Buttler and Bess, the fast bowling remains an issue. Broad and Anderson will do their thing in England, as they always do, and Woakes will be fine in English conditions again. Wood will play a couple of Tests and look better than his figures and we will be six months later on facing tours abroad with Jimmy/Broad 6 months older and a battery of right arm medium pacers again after that. Would have liked to see a wildcard in there - or Ball, who I think deserves a decent run in a friendlier start - but I understand that was made trickier by Bess debuting.


Largely agree with this but lets face it Bess was a real shock to everyone. Is he good enough for test level? Im not sure. Could we have gone without a proper spinner at all? Well theres 12 in the squad so they dont actually have to play him if the pitch is green and looks like a 3 dayer. Last summer Moeen was vital to England papering over the cracks and in some tests they even played 2 spinners....but that was going up against SA with pitches prepared to negate their strengths and expose their weakness playing even mediocre spinners. You wont see teh same against Pakistan, especially in spring tests. Last time they were here it was an absolute shoot out between the seam attacks and the Pakistan batsmen were utterly incapable of delaing with the moving ball, although theyve had better prep this time round theres little to suggest much has changed ....Ireland and some div 2 attacks have made them uncomfortable. Woakes , Anderson, Broad should be enough to blow them away on helpful pitches. By the time India come they should have options again ... both Leach and Crane should be back bowling and Moeen will have had a chance to rehabilitate himself in the limited over games.
I had expected them to go back to Moeen, and Im glad they didnt pick

Vince...yes dissapointed but one innings doesnt change anything. Hes never going to be a top 3 bat at test level and thats the gap they needed to fill. The question has been asked what does county form matter? Very little. Weve seen this year on year (inclduing Leach being overlooked for Crane) . The quality of cricket in the county game just isnt very high, we see some pretty mediocre cricketers ( Darren Stevens) able to thrive there. I suspect the decision on Vince had already been made before the double centtury, but hes certainly made the decision look brave.
Buttler again a massive surprise but then Bayliss has always had a thing for this and reading Agnews comments Ed Smith was always a champion of his for tests. What you get with him is a batsman brimming with confidence and absolutely at the top of his form. Is he goign to be able to knuckle down with the ball swinging around on a green top? Probably not ...but he could score a rapid 50 in the same number of balls those around him scrath out a 10 before knicking one to slip anyway. I assume he will bat at 5. Certainly putting him at 7 would be bonkers. Assuming Stokes plays that does leave England with a very dangerous ( both to them and the opposition) middle order, although I personaly would have Bairstow above Stokes in the batting order. What it also means is you have some real expereince and proven international players rather than nervous newbies in the middle order.


Stoneman ..I wrote at length before about this when the Gubbins rumours surfaced. Personaly I just dfont think hes good enough for tests, nor is he in form, nor is he the sort of flair player Ed Smith supposedly likes. Im not over enthuised by him being in the team, but then I dont exactly see Gubbins as a must pick either. The top 3 remains a real problem for England, the worrying thing is that this squad doesnt seem to have been picked to address that at all.

Bowlers wise Im a bit dissapointed with Wood. He was bought back in during the winter for some pace on unhelpful tracks. He didnt do much with that, and hes not a true quick anyway. Add in the injury issues and hes hadrly demanding of a spot, or one for the future. I just dont see him as the answer to Englands long trm issues overseas, or so as a long term repalcement as a senior bowler for Broad Anderson. Meanwhile Sam Curran has "done a Vince" and taken 10 wickets in a county match to add to his solid performances for the Lions...and gives the left arm option. In home spring tests his bowling should be effective, and he has the potential to devleope into a Broad/Anderson replacement.
Overall its pretty dissapointing to see the same seamers who have failed abroad in the winter (again), and with two coming to the end of their careers and none of the younger ones selected. Yes Woakes, Anderson, Broad should be able to trouble most batting line ups on their own in home conditions (although last year it was only Anderson who did that) but wheres the eye on the future? Wheres the variety? Are England blinkered again into kidding themselves that Woakes/Wood/Stokes are genuinely good rather than adequate test bowlers?


I guess my take home form this is that despite their being two real left field selections its pretty conservative overall and suggests that England remain complacent and arent adressing the big areas of concern. They havent done anything to strengthen the top 3 short or long term, they are still kidding themselves that 5 medium fast seamers is fine, and they are still stuck selecting mediocre county spinners for the sake of having one in the side. A lot of that is down to a lack of options as always.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 16 May 2018, 10:06 am

Gooseberry wrote:
JDizzle wrote:
alfie wrote:I


A lot of that is down to a lack of options as always.

That to me is the crux of it.

Early season wickets mean we have seen a lot of wickets falling to seam bowlers who really are trundlers, spinners not being used and top order batsmen struggling.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 17 May 2018, 12:33 pm

Beer wrote:
Marky wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Beer wrote:Olly,

What do you make of the ECB's covering up of the Wilkerson affair? Is Strauss politicking?

sorry for being thick, but who is Wilkerson?

Imagine being a Cricket fan, and not knowing who Wilkerson is laughing

Plays Regional Cricket down Cambridge way, highly rated, but apparently my source tells me Strauss and the ECB aren't massive fans of his social media presence (he's a bit of a douche by all accounts) and it's hampered his progression. There's a campaign in the area to get him into the Cambridge side and potentially a move after.
The lad is moving to Australia to get better coaching and experience. We’ll lose him to the Aussies

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 17 May 2018, 12:57 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Beer wrote:
Marky wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Beer wrote:Olly,

What do you make of the ECB's covering up of the Wilkerson affair? Is Strauss politicking?

sorry for being thick, but who is Wilkerson?

Imagine being a Cricket fan, and not knowing who Wilkerson is laughing

Plays Regional Cricket down Cambridge way, highly rated, but apparently my source tells me Strauss and the ECB aren't massive fans of his social media presence (he's a bit of a douche by all accounts) and it's hampered his progression. There's a campaign in the area to get him into the Cambridge side and potentially a move after.
The lad is moving to Australia to get better coaching and experience. We’ll lose him to the Aussies

Sounds like he will fit in well down there

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by robbo277 on Thu 17 May 2018, 4:35 pm

Could England still have a couple of surprises in store?

Bairstow's last 16 ODI caps have been as an opener for England and opened against Essex in the CC in one innings for Yorkshire, scoring 50 off 44. With Vince dropped and a lower order batsman coming in, could Bairstow be promoted to the top 3? Either as an opener or a number 3?

Root doesn't want to play at 3. Malan at 4 and Stokes at 5 are possibly one place too high for my liking. Bairstow would add impetus to the top 3 and allow Root, Malan, Stokes and Buttler to play 4-7, which feels more comfortable.

If Bairstow was opening, he could also hand the gloves to Buttler when the opposition go 8 or 9 down and Bairstow's mind starts to drift to his batting.

It would be unorthodox and I'm not saying it's the right way to go, but it might be something that England have thought about. If Bairstow gets to a good start we could seize the initiative from the start of games and it would also push Root one further place away from the new ball.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by alfie on Thu 17 May 2018, 11:20 pm

An interesting idea , Robbo...though not one I'm expecting to be taken up by England.

IF Bairstow succeeded as an opener it would indeed leave a more "comfortable" looking 3-7. IF...

Bit rough on YJB though to expect him to solve all England's batting problems ? One might argue that Moeen has been somewhat undermined by being moved up and down the order to plug holes....

I am generally a believer in leaving the parts that are working in place and seeking to find new faces to fill the holes. But I guess this debate will run and run ...at least until they unearth a couple of new men to replace Bell and Pietersen.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 18 May 2018, 7:55 am

It's been confirmed Root said he'll bat at 3, and Bairstow is going to bat at 5
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 18 May 2018, 8:04 am

They arent going to play Bairstow as an opener, not a chance. Its a totally different beast to limited overs and even a one off County game. If we were reading anything into those then Vince would be playing. If anyone succeeded as an opener it would leave the 3-5 looking more comfortable, but of the last dozen specialists tried none have.
If nothing else it would be grossly unfair on Bairstow. You either overload him with pressure or take the gloves off him then leave him defending his place and confidence in a role hes unfamiliar and unskilled for against a strong pace attack in conditions that should enable the new ball to move a lot.
I personaly think he should be at 4 or 5 as one of our best 3 bats (or two with the form Cooks been in) but thats unlikely to happen too. As is taking the gloves off him.

Vince getting dropped presumably means Root will stay at 3, although there could be an argument for sticking Malan there to protect him a bit from the new ball. But with the struggles to find anyone who can settle at 2 or 3 I beleive we have to start sticking our test class batsmen in the firing line. As with Bairstow at 7 theres only so long you can sustain the luxury of hiding them down the order when you lose that benefit anyway as the top order dissapears within 10 overs.

For me the half way house of Root at 3 and Bairstow at 5 is better than Bairstow 2 Root 3/4 or the old Root 4 Bairstow 7. We saw occassions in Aus where Bairstow was stranded with the tail and pushed into chucking his wicket away and miss scoring opportunitiues either trying to score too quickly or under pressure to stay on strike, 7 is at least one place too low when you dont have Strauss/Trott/Pietersen or even Bell....but do have Stokes and Buttler as specialist bats.

For me ...Cook, Stoneman, Root, Malan, Bairstow, Buttler, Stokes, Woakes, Broad, Bess, Anderson
I suspect they will keep Stokes in the top 6 though.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 18 May 2018, 8:05 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:It's been confirmed Root said he'll bat at 3, and Bairstow is going to bat at 5

Posted as I wrote my meandering piece!

Good.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by alfie on Fri 18 May 2018, 10:55 am

Yes the order Goose is advocating makes sense - given the XI we have. You can quibble about Root/Malan at 3 or 4 , and the exact distribution of the all-rounders ; but that suggested order is as sound as any and has the added merit of breaking up the left and right handers.
Still doesn't convince me this is the best XI but that is a different argument Smile

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by alfie on Fri 18 May 2018, 11:00 am

And it is also encouraging that this time it seems Root is actually embracing the idea of batting three rather than doing it reluctantly...given how much of the game is played in the head this different attitude might make a big positive difference. Hope so...

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Sat 19 May 2018, 4:16 pm

9/1 available on Pakistan to win the series! 9/1! Or 6/1 if you use the insurance of 'draw no bet'. And 9/2 on Pakistan winning the first test! 9/2!

I make it a 50-50 series, with England's batting being such an utter disgrace, so that's an astonishingly decent price.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 21 May 2018, 11:34 am

I do agree its a decent price on Pakistan but ....
This really shouldnt ge a 50/50 game.
Yes England have become notoriously bad starters to series and the summer
Yes Englands team has glaring weaknesses and a couple of fillers
Yes Pakistan have some bowlers with proven pedigree on English pitches

But England are still the better team, especially at home.
Anderson, Broad, Woakes and the supporting cast shouldnt have too much trouble taking 20 wickets.
Pakistan dont have any stronger a batting line up than England do.
They may have had a decent number of games to warm up in but are still struggling to look noticebaly better than one of the worst county sides and came very close to being undone by a pretty poor Ireland side.
England dont lose series at home very often, even to better sides. Which Pakistan arent. Despite the selections.

I have to keep England as clear favourites for the first test and series, but Id still be tempted by odds that long to lay money on Pakistan.

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