England summer thread - 2018

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England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 12 May 2018, 12:02 am

First topic message reminder :

First test squad is announced next week, and the rumour is Nick Gubbins will be selected to open, and this would be the prospective team...

Cook
Gubbins
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow
Livingstone
Woakes/Wood
Broad
Leach
Anderson

With James Vince as 12th man

What do we reckon?
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Sat 26 May 2018, 7:20 pm

robbo277 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Great fightback from Buttler and Bess. Given England a slither of a chance and, at the very least, some pride. Feels like a very similar test to the Ireland-Pakistan one.

You’d expect the new ball to defeat the English lower order tomorrow, but if the hosts can just add 100 runs, it gets interesting.

Let's say we do - Pakistan chasing 150. Who do you make favourites? The pitch isn't turning loads and we have a 20 year old off-spinner on debut. Will Bess step up again? Do we have the pace attack to blast Pakistan out on this pitch?

Would still make Pakistan favourites, chasing 150, but it would give England a fighting chance (who only need 9 wickets).

I reckon England need a lead in the 200s to be considered favourites, but that looks very remote.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by robbo277 on Sat 26 May 2018, 7:43 pm

Duty281 wrote:
robbo277 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Great fightback from Buttler and Bess. Given England a slither of a chance and, at the very least, some pride. Feels like a very similar test to the Ireland-Pakistan one.

You’d expect the new ball to defeat the English lower order tomorrow, but if the hosts can just add 100 runs, it gets interesting.

Let's say we do - Pakistan chasing 150. Who do you make favourites? The pitch isn't turning loads and we have a 20 year old off-spinner on debut. Will Bess step up again? Do we have the pace attack to blast Pakistan out on this pitch?

Would still make Pakistan favourites, chasing 150, but it would give England a fighting chance (who only need 9 wickets).

I reckon England need a lead in the 200s to be considered favourites, but that looks very remote.

Largely agree. Here's hoping Buttler and Bess can keep going!

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by KP_fan on Sat 26 May 2018, 9:34 pm

So weekend gave me and opportunity to  watch live, on & off.... & by tea it appeared  game over with Eng 110-6....and the only questions ...can they avoid innings defeat...
can they take the game into tomm :

The last session proved the following;

1)Butler did carry his IPL form into tests Shocked

2) Bess can bat and if he plays few more  innings like thrse he can be in the category of average spinners who can bat and have a reasonable career


3) Shadab does not fit in the pantheon of great Pakistani  leg-spinners
from when I have been watching cricket, they had Qadir, Mushtaq, Danish & then Yasir Arafat
Shadab is good spinner....but less than all of them them....he doesn't appear to have a googly nor a ripping big leg-break
His action is almost that of a Off-spinner who floats it up......

4) Pakistan should still win, by mopping up the lower order with the new ball due and duly chase down 120 odd
Pitch has if at all eased out for seamers and hasn't deteriorated enough for spinners
Unless butler cracks a 150odd inning tomm


Last edited by KP_fan on Sun 27 May 2018, 10:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by sirfredperry on Sun 27 May 2018, 9:51 am

Been at Lord's for the first three days. The fightback was one of the most UNEXPECTED I've seen, given that up to tea on the Saturday England had been completely outplayed.
Full marks to Bess, while Buttler looked composed. OK, Pakistan still ought to win comfortably from here but at least England can take a few positives from the match into the rest of the summer. Must say I thought the Buttler selection was plain daft while possibly few expected Bess to shine with the bat.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 27 May 2018, 10:13 am

A first-rate partnership full of fight and sense between Buttler and Bess, two men who would not have been in my eleven.

However, we remain facing down the barrel. You cannot leave it until the third session of the third day to start playing.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by eirebilly on Sun 27 May 2018, 10:52 am

New ball and fresh Pakistani bowlers/fielders means that Bess and Buttler will certainly be under a lot of pressure this morning. If they can survive the first hour and keep the scoring ticking over they could yet get England into a position to have a total to defend against.

Don't forget that Broad can also get some quick runs and if his confidence gets right up, he can destroy batting line ups very quickly.
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by eirebilly on Sun 27 May 2018, 11:06 am

As expected, Buttler gone early to the new ball Sad
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Sun 27 May 2018, 11:07 am

Buttler gone. That's probably the match.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by eirebilly on Sun 27 May 2018, 11:12 am

Bess to try and anchor the remainder of the innings now and let Wood and Broad swing away. Anything over 100 now could still pose a tricky chase for Pakistan.

I am way too optimistic for my own good...
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by eirebilly on Sun 27 May 2018, 11:23 am

Even I have given up hope now.
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Sun 27 May 2018, 11:26 am

Perfect morning for Pakistan. England recovered some pride last night, but that’s all they’re getting.

And, yes, Ireland did push Pakistan more than England have done.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Sun 27 May 2018, 11:28 am

Some superb bowling by Amir. 4 wickets in half an hour.

All done in time for the Monaco GP.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Sun 27 May 2018, 11:49 am

Yeah there wasn't ever much hope with a new ball due early for rested players

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Sun 27 May 2018, 12:35 pm

Duty281 wrote:9/1 available on Pakistan to win the series! 9/1! Or 6/1 if you use the insurance of 'draw no bet'. And 9/2 on Pakistan winning the first test! 9/2!

I make it a 50-50 series, with England's batting being such an utter disgrace, so that's an astonishingly decent price.

We're in the money, the sky is sunny...

Well done Pakistan. thumbsup

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by eirebilly on Sun 27 May 2018, 12:36 pm

Comprehensive victory for Pakistan. A couple of positives for England but in general, very poor performance.
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 27 May 2018, 12:39 pm

Bye-liss

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by KP_fan on Sun 27 May 2018, 2:41 pm

--In the end, the end came too fast
Very good display from Pakistan & other than forced change of Babar Azam....I don't think they will consider any other changes
I think fakhr Zaman Or Sami will come in, although both are specialists openers

--Shadab ain't a game changing spinner, but adequate as 4th bowler...will pose challenges in 2nd innings & if there is a lot in the pitch Harris Sohail is also a SLA......5th bowler in their ODI make up.
Abbas is like banned Asif......getting late conventional seam movement...with a scrambled seam.....both ways making him hard to pick and LBW his most likely mode of dismissal

--Eng will change their opener Stoneman I guess.....what else can they change?
If Headingley will be the typical seaming pitch....they must bring in a Kiss the top seamer instead of Dig-it-in Wood
Curran, Roland jones or better Woakes...unless they are all injured.
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 27 May 2018, 3:56 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Bye-liss

Bayliss rightly getting stick, but Ramprakash seems to be getting away with criticism - has any England batsman actually improved since he became batting coach?
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Sun 27 May 2018, 7:29 pm

Very poor from England, not least the catching. Stoneman pretty much due for the chop.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Sun 27 May 2018, 7:39 pm

Stoneman is probably due for the chop. 20 test match innings, average of below 30, no score above 60. Only trouble is - who do England replace him with?!

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 27 May 2018, 8:31 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Bye-liss

Bayliss rightly getting stick, but Ramprakash seems to be getting away with criticism - has any England batsman actually improved since he became batting coach?

Olly - a very good and valid question about Ramprakash.

There's no set formula for what makes a good batting coach but two aspects of Ramps' own batting career make me wonder as to how to well the current role suits him.

Firstly, he was a very elegant and natural batsman. The shots just seemed to come to him when playing for Middlesex and Surrey. He didn't really have to work at that part of his game. It is often said in sport that the best coaches aren't those who were the most gifted but those who had to work at their game which enables them to relate better to those they are trying to develop.

Secondly, where Ramps fell down badly was in trying to transfer his excellent county form to the Test arena. He seemed to lack the temperament for the big occasion and got overawed too easily. Where a coach definitely needs to help players and particularly young players is in regard to their mental approach to the game and in stepping up to the next level. As he was unable to do that as a player, we certainly shouldn't assume he can do it as a coach.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by alfie on Sun 27 May 2018, 10:14 pm

Ramps was a lovely county bat but basically rubbish in Tests. OK that's a bit brutal for me Smile but essentially true. Not shocked he isn't cutting it as a coach.

After this rotten start to the summerr you have to wonder if Bayliss and co really have any future in the Test game ? Surely England are better than that ?

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by guildfordbat on Sun 27 May 2018, 10:36 pm

alfie wrote:Ramps was a lovely county bat but basically rubbish in Tests.  OK that's a bit brutal for me Smile  but essentially true. Not shocked he isn't cutting it as a coach.

After this rotten start to the summer you have to wonder if Bayliss and co really have any future in the Test game ?  Surely England are better than that ?

Yeah, we can tinker around with the eleven and drop someone like Stoneman but there does seem to be something more fundamentally wrong with how the Test side is being run.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 27 May 2018, 10:58 pm

It’s not lost on me that Ramprakash is batting coach for a team that can get starts but not convert them and show no county form internationally

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by robbo277 on Mon 28 May 2018, 6:52 am

The mentality is all wrong. When was the last time England came from behind in a game to win or at least push it close? As soon as the chips are down, we collapse. Is it a one-day mindset? There's less ebb and flow in an ODI and usually another game around the corner where you might come off. Test cricket is different, you have a stinking Day 1, you dig deep Days 2 to 5 to try to turn it around.

In the Melbourne test and the second test against New Zealand were the only times we had a first innings lead and we carried on fighting - although both matches ended up drawn with England marginally ahead.

In the Adelaide test we had a first innings deficit and the bowlers fought hard in the third innings, but the bats subsided in the 4th.

In the Brisbane test we had a small first innings deficit that could have been overturned, but the batters and then the bowlers offered two poor innings.

In Perth, Sydney and the first test in NZ we gave up big first innings leads and lost by an innings.

Against Pakistan we gave up a big first innings lead and only just made them bat again.

Against SA and West Indies last summer, the pattern continued. England won 5 tests where they got first innings leads, and lost 2 tests when they went behind. In the South Africa series, this effect is most stark:

England won the 3 tests they won (first innings lead in brackets) by 211 (97), 239 (178) and 177 (136) runs. In every instance, they managed to increase their first innings lead when it got to margin of victory to make 3 big test wins.

The test they lost, they gave up a first innings lead of 130 and lost by 340. Plonked in between two 200 run wins against South Africa came one huge loss. All it took was one good innings for South Africa and England subsided.

There are technical issues, but as soon as this England team gets under the cosh they fold. And that's the most embarrassing bit.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by KP_fan on Mon 28 May 2018, 7:14 am

robbo277 wrote:The mentality is all wrong. When was the last time England came from behind in a game to win or at least push it close? As soon as the chips are down, we collapse. Is it a one-day mindset? There's less ebb and flow in an ODI and usually another game around the corner where you might come off. Test cricket is different, you have a stinking Day 1, you dig deep Days 2 to 5 to try to turn it around.

In the Melbourne test and the second test against New Zealand were the only times we had a first innings lead and we carried on fighting - although both matches ended up drawn with England marginally ahead.

In the Adelaide test we had a first innings deficit and the bowlers fought hard in the third innings, but the bats subsided in the 4th.

In the Brisbane test we had a small first innings deficit that could have been overturned, but the batters and then the bowlers offered two poor innings.

In Perth, Sydney and the first test in NZ we gave up big first innings leads and lost by an innings.

Against Pakistan we gave up a big first innings lead and only just made them bat again.

Against SA and West Indies last summer, the pattern continued. England won 5 tests where they got first innings leads, and lost 2 tests when they went behind. In the South Africa series, this effect is most stark:

England won the 3 tests they won (first innings lead in brackets) by 211 (97), 239 (178) and 177 (136) runs. In every instance, they managed to increase their first innings lead when it got to margin of victory to make 3 big test wins.

The test they lost, they gave up a first innings lead of 130 and lost by 340. Plonked in between two 200 run wins against South Africa came one huge loss. All it took was one good innings for South Africa and England subsided.

There are technical issues, but as soon as this England team gets under the cosh they fold. And that's the most embarrassing bit.

That's a true assessment
Intensity is the key ingredient, that's missing...the intensity to raise the level of fight in adversity, when chips are down.
The intensity to keep fighting with belief even when behind in the game.....
This intensity stems from the leader & is missing.....coach and support cast can only help make the strategies / plan....but the raising of the bar's gotta be executed done the team& led by the leader

Root becomes a picture of despondency & hopelessness as things get adverse
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 28 May 2018, 9:13 am

Jennings for Stoneman is the only change for the 2nd test - Stoneman had to be chopped, horribly out of form, and Jennings has had a good start to the summer with three centuries already
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 28 May 2018, 9:31 am

So Jennings for Stoneman will be a change, and I’d like to see Woakes in for Wood for the 2nd test too - might be a bit “horses for courses”, but we kind of need that right now, and even Stokes showed he can do the “enforcer” role better than Wood can in the last test
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by guildfordbat on Mon 28 May 2018, 10:19 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:So Jennings for Stoneman will be a change, and I’d like to see Woakes in for Wood for the 2nd test too - might be a bit “horses for courses”, but we kind of need that right now, and even Stokes showed he can do the “enforcer” role better than Wood can in the last test

Agree with all that although, with some reference to Robbo's interesting post, we also and probably more importantly need a better approach and mindset.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Mon 28 May 2018, 10:49 am

I said before the series started that I considered it 50-50. After seeing how sharp, motivated and well-prepared Pakistan are, I probably make them 60-40 favourites for the final test in Leeds.

And you can still get 7/2 on Pakistan to win in Leeds.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by VTR on Mon 28 May 2018, 6:13 pm

We seem to be slumping towards a 1999 style nadir. I suppose the difference this time is we were also shocking in ODIs back then. We badly need to win the World Cup to make the marginalisation of first class cricket and by extension the Test team worthwhile

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 28 May 2018, 6:13 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
alfie wrote:Ramps was a lovely county bat but basically rubbish in Tests.  OK that's a bit brutal for me Smile  but essentially true. Not shocked he isn't cutting it as a coach.

After this rotten start to the summer you have to wonder if Bayliss and co really have any future in the Test game ?  Surely England are better than that ?

Yeah, we can tinker around with the eleven and drop someone like Stoneman but there does seem to be something more fundamentally wrong with how the Test side is being run.

Well Strauss in his pre break interview pretty much said outright they would split the leadership between tests and limited overs once his contracts over. The question really is will it happen sooner, probably not.


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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 28 May 2018, 7:12 pm

VTR wrote:We seem to be slumping towards a 1999 style nadir. I suppose the difference this time is we were also shocking in ODIs back then. We badly need to win the World Cup to make the marginalisation of first class cricket and by extension the Test team worthwhile

Aye, we are so poor I am amazed anyone would think we had the skills needed to help spot fixing.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon 28 May 2018, 11:10 pm

I’d imagine it’s Woakes for Wood, which seems really short term for me and stinks again of a lack of imagination or forethought. But if you haven’t got or used either, then it’s probably the only change to make to win this test. 

Although I will wind up Olly here and say I get Vaughan’s point about Broad - something needs to happen. It’s the most comfortable poor team. Not many good teams are built by being allowed to be s***

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 28 May 2018, 11:22 pm

I get Vaughan’s overall point, but he’s literally chosen to go after the one of the “old guard” who went away after the Ashes, and looked at their game, made changes and has bowled much better and faster in NZ and the first test because of said changes!
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Mon 28 May 2018, 11:44 pm

Not the first time Vaughan has suggested Broad be dropped; probably not the last either.

The reason why England have lost 6 of their last 8 tests isn't because of Broad, or Anderson for that matter. It's because of a weak top order, a terrible captain, rubbish preparation, dismal fielding, and a focus on limited-overs rubbish ahead of the true form.

Soon Broad and Anderson will retire: then England will be absolutely screwed.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by LivinginItaly on Tue 29 May 2018, 7:33 am

To be honest I don't think Vaughan really wants broad to be dropped. From listening to him at times on the commentary I get the idea that he says controversial statements just to get some attention

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by dummy_half on Tue 29 May 2018, 7:35 am

Duty281 wrote:Not the first time Vaughan has suggested Broad be dropped; probably not the last either.

The reason why England have lost 6 of their last 8 tests isn't because of Broad, or Anderson for that matter. It's because of a weak top order, a terrible captain, rubbish preparation, dismal fielding, and a focus on limited-overs rubbish ahead of the true form.

Soon Broad and Anderson will retire: then England will be absolutely screwed.

Certainly Root isn't looking special in that department - another case of 'best player is not best captain'? The problem is who would take over - only certainties for selection are Cook, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Broad and Anderson, and there are reasons for not giving any of them the captaincy...

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by robbo277 on Tue 29 May 2018, 7:50 am

Trevor Bayliss was saying they don't know everyone's best field positions or who should field where. It's all quite shambolic.

I wouldn't drop Broad, but I wouldn't say he's untouchable. Anderson and Stokes are I'd say. However, if the third seamer was outbowling him and we decided to change the make-up of the attack, either bringing in a second spinner, a left armer or a tall quick (were we to have anyone good enough in any of those 3 categories) then I wouldn't hesitate to take Broad out.

My issue is taking him out for another right arm, 84mph seamer isn't going to change the variety of our attack, and if the bowler is of lesser quality than it can only hurt.

I don't know why Anderson and Broad, who have had so much success over the years in pitching the ball up, are so quick to revert to shorter pitched bowling. Not even bouncers, just back of a length stuff. Do they just hate being hit? So if the ball isn't hooping through the air they just try to dry up the runs?

It's hard to criticise when they've got over a thousand wickets between them, but especially with the new ball I think we should be more positive. Maybe if they had 400 on the board once in a while they would be more willing to risk a 4 or two for the wicket?

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by robbo277 on Tue 29 May 2018, 7:52 am

robbo277 wrote:Trevor Bayliss was saying they don't know everyone's best field positions or who should field where. It's all quite shambolic.

I wouldn't drop Broad, but I wouldn't say he's untouchable. Anderson and Stokes are I'd say. However, if the third seamer was outbowling him and we decided to change the make-up of the attack, either bringing in a second spinner, a left armer or a tall quick (were we to have anyone good enough in any of those 3 categories) then I wouldn't hesitate to take Broad out.

My issue is taking him out for another right arm, 84mph seamer isn't going to change the variety of our attack, and if the bowler is of lesser quality than it can only hurt.

I don't know why Anderson and Broad, who have had so much success over the years in pitching the ball up, are so quick to revert to shorter pitched bowling. Not even bouncers, just back of a length stuff. Do they just hate being hit? So if the ball isn't hooping through the air they just try to dry up the runs?

It's hard to criticise when they've got over a thousand wickets between them, but especially with the new ball I think we should be more positive. Maybe if they had 400 on the board once in a while they would be more willing to risk a 4 or two for the wicket?

I guess they could be thinking if they get the edge it's still only 50/50 whether they'll get the wicket, so the odds aren't in their favour! censored

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 29 May 2018, 9:20 am

The reappearence of Jennings really sums up Englands selection policies over the the Bayliss era.
After being dropped twice by England (recalled whilst horribly out of form) and overlooked for Vince at 3 hes suddenly leapfrogging Gubbins based on a couple of good county innings.

Whilst Im happy to see theyve finally admitted that Stoneman just isnt good enough or young enough to be worth investing years of devleopment in Im at a loss as to how they can suddenly be latching back on to Jennings when he had seemingly been well down the pecking order. His county runs were scored before the last test squad was announced, and he had some success with the Lions. Its not like hes suddenly announced himself with a skillfull double century against a test class attack over the weekend, his last two scores have actually been poor. It seems a reactive desperation selection, although in the long run Im happier to see Jennings in than Stoneman why didnt this happen for the first test?

Woakes for Wood would be a similar thing. They have supposedly switched to a policy of trying to pick specialists to do specialist jobs and asking them to take resposnibility. Batsmen not to rely on the tail to bail them out. The better batsmen pushed up the order the order to cover for the lack of depth and quality. A spinner picked for his bowling rather than his batting ....and you end up with him making his name by hitting a well crafted 50 to avoid an innings defeat whilst being ineffectual with the ball.
Going back to Woakes...assuming its for Wood...just reverts back to type. 4 pretty samey definately not fast right armer home conditions specialists. Two of them who quite possibly wouldnt be in the frame at all if they couldnt hold a bat. None of them going to offer that spark they need on flat or super quick away pitches.
That said again Im happier to see Woakes in than Wood simply because I really dont thgink Wood is the answer either. But their justification for picking him was that they wanted to develope a fast bowler and start picking bolwers on their bowling and potential for foriegn pitches ather than worrying about the strength of the 8/9 spots. If Wood goes then thats the policy chucked out the window after one game and back to the typical flip flopping of the Bayliss era.

Buttler bought in to offer flair and to attack tired bowlers is called on to fight defensive rear guard battle ... but then easily dismissed with the new ball that hes supposed to make fly to boundaries. Youd think as well he'd be a safe pair of hands at first slip as a keeper by trade.

Seam bowlers dropping short of a length at home when theres movement after weve been told all winter that they are having trouble understanding how to bowl on Aussie pitches ...who decided on this policy? Fair enough for Wood to be trying to unsettle batsmen with his short pitched stuff (and he was able to get a wicket catching a player on the back foot doing this) but Broad and Anderson? Yes Broads at his best when hes snarling and to be fair couldve got a lot more wickets but that agression doesnt have to mean dropping short of a length consistently.

Add to that Bayliss' admitted confussion over fielding places and the continued horrors in the slips and really its looking like the team is lacking leadership and clarity of direction.

I do agree with Vaughn that many of Englands palyers are capable of better performances, and its certainly not just down to there being 4 or 5 place fillers in the side. They genuinely look like a side that doesnt know whats going on around them and aree in a permanent panic.





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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 29 May 2018, 9:55 am

Interesting table in this article on the beeb...https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/44281297

Only four England batsmen who debuted since 2014 have managed to average over 30, and the best two are well away from the team (Balance and Hameed) with Buttler of all people 3rd and Robson (remember him?) fourth.

The lack of quality is damning.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 29 May 2018, 10:11 am

Gooseberry wrote:Interesting table in this article on the beeb...https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/44281297

Only four England batsmen who debuted since 2014 have managed to average over 30, and the best two are well away from the team (Balance and Hameed) with Buttler of all people 3rd and Robson (remember him?) fourth.

The lack of quality is damning.

Another interesting one was in The Times (as a quiz) today:

Twelve players have partnered Cook at the top of the order since Strauss retired - stats listed in no particular order, can you name them:

1) 6 Tests, Avge 24.5
2) 11 & 27.28
3) 3 & 14
4) 7 and 30.54
5) 7 & 20.38
6) 6 & 41.7
7) 11 & 27.68
8) 10 & 31.12
9) 6 & 28.75
10) 2 & 23
11) 3 & 12
12) 3 & 43.8



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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by sirfredperry on Tue 29 May 2018, 10:22 am

Interesting stats about the recent players. I can't help feeling I've been transported back to the 90s when just about everyone (Thorpe was one exception) who came into the side underperformed.
Then we had a period where the selectors got in spot on. Tresco, Vaughan, Strauss, Bell (eventually), Pieterson, Cook, Trott and Prior all settled in pretty much straight away.
The first two of the above had only moderate county stats before being picked ,but they were considered to be players with Test match temperament. Alas, now it's stick-a-pin-in time again, with players in and out of the team.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 29 May 2018, 11:41 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Interesting table in this article on the beeb...https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/44281297

Only four England batsmen who debuted since 2014 have managed to average over 30, and the best two are well away from the team (Balance and Hameed) with Buttler of all people 3rd and Robson (remember him?) fourth.

The lack of quality is damning.

Another interesting one was in The Times (as a quiz) today:

Twelve players have partnered Cook at the top of the order since Strauss retired - stats listed in no particular order, can you name them:

1) 6 Tests, Avge 24.5
2) 11 & 27.28
3) 3 & 14
4) 7 and 30.54
5) 7 & 20.38
6) 6 & 41.7
7) 11 & 27.68
8) 10 & 31.12
9) 6 & 28.75
10) 2 & 23
11) 3 & 12
12) 3 & 43.8



Couldnt match to the stats but ...

Compton, Root, Carberry, Robson, Lyth, Trott, Moeen, Hales, Hameed, Jennings, Stoneman

Not sure who 12 is? (Ballance?)

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by compelling and rich on Tue 29 May 2018, 11:51 am

Gooseberry wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Interesting table in this article on the beeb...https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/44281297

Only four England batsmen who debuted since 2014 have managed to average over 30, and the best two are well away from the team (Balance and Hameed) with Buttler of all people 3rd and Robson (remember him?) fourth.

The lack of quality is damning.

Another interesting one was in The Times (as a quiz) today:

Twelve players have partnered Cook at the top of the order since Strauss retired - stats listed in no particular order, can you name them:

1) 6 Tests, Avge 24.5
2) 11 & 27.28
3) 3 & 14
4) 7 and 30.54
5) 7 & 20.38
6) 6 & 41.7
7) 11 & 27.68
8) 10 & 31.12
9) 6 & 28.75
10) 2 & 23
11) 3 & 12
12) 3 & 43.8



Couldnt match to the stats but ...

Compton, Root, Carberry, Robson, Lyth, Trott, Moeen, Hales, Hameed, Jennings, Stoneman

Not sure who 12 is? (Ballance?)

ben duckett?

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 29 May 2018, 12:14 pm

Yeah Ducket was the 12th person.

Hameed and Root the only ones to average over 40 - though Root's stats boosted by one big hundred scored in teh second innings when England had a lead of over two hundred on first innings.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 29 May 2018, 1:01 pm

I do think Duckett was hastily jettisoned, considering he was thrown in on raging turners in Bangladesh and India - probably deserved a go in England.

But it just proves that whoever is next off the rank in county cricket, often isn't good enough, or simply not taking their opportunity.

I always tend to think these things go in cycles, and England are having a bad patch
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by KP_fan on Tue 29 May 2018, 1:31 pm

dummy_half wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Not the first time Vaughan has suggested Broad be dropped; probably not the last either.

The reason why England have lost 6 of their last 8 tests isn't because of Broad, or Anderson for that matter. It's because of a weak top order, a terrible captain, rubbish preparation, dismal fielding, and a focus on limited-overs rubbish ahead of the true form.

Soon Broad and Anderson will retire: then England will be absolutely screwed.

Certainly Root isn't looking special in that department - another case of 'best player is not best captain'? The problem is who would take over - only certainties for selection are Cook, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Broad and Anderson, and there are reasons for not giving any of them the captaincy...

why don't they consider Broad or Anderson....probably Broad, he has more years left in him
Mooen Ali has the temperament to make a good captain too IMO
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 29 May 2018, 2:00 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Yeah Ducket was the 12th person.

Hameed and Root the only ones to average over 40 - though Root's stats boosted by one big hundred scored in teh second innings when England had a lead of over two hundred on first innings.

Duckets behaviour since has put hium out of the picture.

But realisticaly hes not a proper test opener, his future was always going to be primarily as a limited overs player who if he developed well enough might have made the grade as a test bat. But he was far from the kind of knuckle down technicaly correct batsman that England are despertaley short of through the full order.

KP_fan wrote:
dummy_half wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Not the first time Vaughan has suggested Broad be dropped; probably not the last either.

The reason why England have lost 6 of their last 8 tests isn't because of Broad, or Anderson for that matter. It's because of a weak top order, a terrible captain, rubbish preparation, dismal fielding, and a focus on limited-overs rubbish ahead of the true form.

Soon Broad and Anderson will retire: then England will be absolutely screwed.

Certainly Root isn't looking special in that department - another case of 'best player is not best captain'? The problem is who would take over - only certainties for selection are Cook, Root, Bairstow, Stokes, Broad and Anderson, and there are reasons for not giving any of them the captaincy...

why don't they consider Broad or Anderson....probably Broad, he has more years left in him
Mooen Ali has the temperament to make a good captain too IMO

Broads place in the side has been in question at times, not just from Vaughn and is very close to retirement. If they were considering him or Anderson it would be as a very short term decision, its unlikely either will styay on past the next ashes and wouldnt really solve the issue. It would rather assume that they are very desperate to get rid of Root immediately, which isn't the case, and wont happen whilst Strauss is on leave unless theres an Australia type scandal break.

As for Moeen ...you are kidding right? Whilst heis behaviour is squeeky clean hes never been comfortable in the spotlight and has been very flakey as a player. Watch some of the ways he got out in the winter tests and tell me thats an example of a player whos capable of leading by example. He cant even get in the side as third choice spinner at the moment, so despite your love of him ( based on performances in two series) hes not close to justifying garaunteed selection in the team. Having him in there wont help with Englands long term ambition to nuture proper spinners who can take wickets through skill, even when theyve played others alongside Moeen theyve often been asked to try and keep things tight as hes leaked runs chucking it up tempting batsmen to get themselves out.
The South Africa series last summer was his first genuinely good one with the ball since India at home, and that took a second spinner playing alongside him and being fed advice from a specialist coach. Without that, and away from home, he fell apart again.
He has a fragile mentality which has been exposed time and again, hardly one that senior players are going to buy into.
Anderson has surprised a lot of people by keeping going as long as he has and surviving a pretty heavy load over the winter without breaking down, but realisticaly hes living on borrowed time and may well be rested for part of the winter if he hasnt retired. The India series is going to be pretty demanding, and he'll be 36 by the end of that.

As a medium to long term option Bairstows the guy currently, but I dont see a change being on the cards this summer. If the police issues go away and he can show a more control of his agression then Stokes comes into the frame as well.

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