England summer thread - 2018

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England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 12 May 2018, 12:02 am

First topic message reminder :

First test squad is announced next week, and the rumour is Nick Gubbins will be selected to open, and this would be the prospective team...

Cook
Gubbins
Root
Malan
Stokes
Bairstow
Livingstone
Woakes/Wood
Broad
Leach
Anderson

With James Vince as 12th man

What do we reckon?
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 22 May 2018, 8:15 am

Agree with Goose here - this isn't the same Pakistan side that came in 2016, the batting is massively weaker and with Amir constantly a fitness doubt their bowling isn't as certain as it was back then either, albeit Abbas and Shadab are exactly the type of bowlers who cause England issues historically.

This is a series England should win
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 22 May 2018, 8:55 am

As a bit of an aside, I'll be interested to see how much Root bowls in this series and how he gets on.

Regulars will know I've never been keen on him bowling in Tests - my taking the view that you need Test quality bowlers to bowl at Test quality batsmen and that Root isn't one of the former.

I'm in no rush to change that view but I will readily acknowledge that I was surprised and impressed by his bowling when he captained Yorks and brought himself on to bowl after lunch on the first day of their recent Championship match against Surrey at the Oval. In his initial spell, he sent down 7 very tidy overs and had Elgar of all batsmen in some trouble, finally bowling the South African with a lovely flighted delivery after Bairstow had missed a stumping chance the over before.

Now one swallow doesn't make a summer etc etc but it did make me wonder if my long held judgement had been a bit harsh. Perhaps we'll see.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 23 May 2018, 9:50 am

With Crane returning to action and being straight in the wickets theres a fair chance we will see him back in teh side by the ned of the series. If that does happen  Roots ability to hold down an end and bowl economicaly will be of even more value to England. As it is Malans legspin offers more variety to the attack as a partnertship breaker currently, hes also proven he can bowl tightly in tests. Both can do a job with the ball as occasional bowlers, and now England are unlikley to be fielding 6 front line bowlers shoudl see some useage. But their focus has to be on batting and if the bowlers getting picked as specialists arent being utilised for the enormous bulk of overs you have to seriously worry about the quality we have (which isnt misplaced in terms of spinners)
Picthes dependant theres a small chance that England will go without a specialist spinner at all of course, although Id be surprised to see this especially at Lords even if Bess is a bit of a scrapping the barrell pick.


Aside to the aside...wishing Mrs Strauss all the best.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by ChequeredJersey on Wed 23 May 2018, 11:13 am

I still think if we are to select Buttler, who has mostly One Day form and recent experience, we may as well take an actual risk and open with him alongside Cook. Maybe there's a duck there, but that's pretty much what we've been dealing with opening for seasons anyway, and maybe it works and he plays an outright attacking opening game, gets some boundaries off hard ball, softens it up with hard hitting, knocks some bowlers out of the attack and gets the occasional big score. Certainly offers a different player alongside Cook
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 23 May 2018, 12:53 pm

Good interview with Strauss just before his extended leave was announced.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/23574220/embrace-radical-change-accept-ran-status

Hes mostly saying what we already knew mind.
Englands away form in tests is bad even when weighted against other sides and we cant just keep pretending otherwise or hiding behind home wins.
They need to focus identifying players with outstanding skills early and nurture them. Left arm seamers, fast bowlers, proper spinners, natural batsmen. We cant rely on the county game to do this.
The Domestic game is not geraed up to help develope test cricketers, prepare them for overseas competition, or even prep them adequately for home tests. It isnt focused on devleoping the types of cricketer England are short of, and the quality and intesnity are well below those of the international level games.
We need longer tours with more prep or less comeptitive revenue generating games.
100 ball cricket isnt going to help any of that.

The split limited overs/tests coaching almost certainly will happen once Bayliss' contract is up in 2019.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 23 May 2018, 1:43 pm

Root confirms that Bess will debut tomorrow, but the final XI hasn't been revealed. Basically as everyone has already said, it'll be a straight choice between Wood and Woakes for that third seamer slot.
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by wisden on Wed 23 May 2018, 2:12 pm

I think Wood will take it for Lords

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 24 May 2018, 8:50 am

Think youre probably right Wisden but it would leave England with a heck of a tail (Bess at 8 on debut?)
On whats likely to be largely a sunny weather game on a flat pitch the touch of extra pace is likley to be the preferred option, but I still dont think Woods the answer in Englands search for a genuine quick for flat picthes long or even short term.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 May 2018, 10:12 am

Unsurprisingly Durham Chairman Ian Botham will be angry if Durham bowler Mark Wood isn't picked...

Seems to be an overcast day, bit of a green tinge to the pitch - might be a bowl first situation?

Also one for the Surrey mafia to note - Ollie Pope has been netting with the England squad, and was pictured talking and walking with Ed Smith and Mark Ramprakash earlier today. One to watch for the future for sure
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 May 2018, 10:19 am

And it's confirmed that Wood plays and Woakes is 12th man
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 24 May 2018, 10:29 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Unsurprisingly Durham Chairman Ian Botham will be angry if Durham bowler Mark Wood isn't picked...

Seems to be an overcast day, bit of a green tinge to the pitch - might be a bowl first situation?

Also one for the Surrey mafia to note - Ollie Pope has been netting with the England squad, and was pictured talking and walking with Ed Smith and Mark Ramprakash earlier today. One to watch for the future for sure

Certainly a think about it before batting day! Wink

My thought last season was that Pope was more of a white ball batsman. However, this season so far he's been better in Championship and excelled there. Definitely one to watch as you say.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 May 2018, 10:35 am

Utterly moronic from Joe Root to bat first under these conditions. Pakistan would have bowled first.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 May 2018, 10:36 am

England win the toss, and bat first - Root stressing he thinks the pitch is dry, and thus going with Wood over Woakes and batting first.

Pakistan go with Azhar Ali, Imam Ul-Haq, Harris Sohail, Asad Shafiq, Babar Azam, Sarfraz Ahmed, Shadab Khan, Farham Ashraf, Mohammad Amir, Hasan Ali, Mohammad Abbas.

Pakistan side looks like a good bowling one, but a batter light to me. Lot of pressure on Shadab batting at 7
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 24 May 2018, 10:49 am

This caught my eye from Will Macpherson's preview in yesterday's London Standard -
''Mark Stoneman has two Tests to save his career, while Alastair Cook is still capable of big scores, but probably not big summers.''
Particularly interesting comment about Cook. How perceptive remains to be seen.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 May 2018, 11:16 am

Stoneman given a proper going over by Abbas. 12/1.

Deserved for the seamer.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 24 May 2018, 11:24 am

Duty281 wrote:Utterly moronic from Joe Root to bat first under these conditions. Pakistan would have bowled first.

If we let Pakistan take advantage of the conditions and bat like a bunch of muppets, we could lose this first Test in the opening session just as we did in New Zealand. However, I believe a captain should have confidence in his batsmen and be backing them to put a total on the board. I acknowledge that's an old school view and today was certainly a day to consider bowling but it still has merit for me.

To be fair (1): as per your post, Pakistan's skipper said he would have bowled.
To be fair (2): he would say that, wouldn't he? [Shortly before the toss, Wasim Akram said on Sky that he would still choose to bat.]

Anyway, we can't meaningfully judge yet. Runs coming but Stoneman already gone. Almost a suicidal run out of Root as well which would have put Duty's view firmly in the driving seat.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 May 2018, 11:29 am

Without wishing to put the mockers on him...Cook looks in much much better nick here than he did in New Zealand a few months ago
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 May 2018, 12:07 pm

Dim shot by Joe Root. Game of patience and he loses. Advantage Pakistan after the first hour.

England have a very weak batting line-up, which is exposed now. Buttler - hasn't played red ball cricket since September - at 7, a debutant at 8, then Broad/Wood/Anderson to round it off, none of whom you would trust to get into double digits. Even Stokes as high as 6 doesn't look fantastic.

Pakistan have bowled well and fielded well so far, though Amir will be disappointed.

Review now! Cook looked gone to me...umpire's call.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 May 2018, 12:12 pm

43/3. Great line and length. Malan departs cheaply.

England are, again, in trouble.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 May 2018, 12:13 pm

Operation get Jos in is going well
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 May 2018, 12:24 pm

Hasan Ali is bowling absolutely beautifully here
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 24 May 2018, 12:33 pm

Btw, excellent punditry from Wasim Akram. Not only saying where he would place a different fielder but also saying whom he would move to make such a change possible.

Too much to hope the indolent Botham was listening and taking note.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 May 2018, 12:37 pm

Cook holding everything together. Bairstow looking a little lost out there.

Suppose Amir will get another 2-3 overs before lunch?

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 24 May 2018, 12:40 pm

To be fair Pakistan have bowled beautifully. England on 58 for 3 and I would say Root is the only to have gifted his wicket away with a loose shot.
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 24 May 2018, 1:00 pm

Pakistan's morning. England reach lunch on 72 for 3. Cook looking in good nick on 46 is something England can be happy about.
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 May 2018, 1:02 pm

Pakistan's session then, but England are far from out of it.

Cook going along well, though riding his luck at times. He needs someone to stick with him for the afternoon. Pakistan have bowled well and fielded well and fully deserve their success.

It'll be a crucial first hour (cliche!) in the afternoon. England could get to a position of relative strength, say 120/3, or they could lapse to something dreadful like 100/6.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 May 2018, 1:09 pm

Pakistan just on top, but England still in it especially considering the conditions and there is clearly something in the pitch. A lot depends on this partnership, but both are going well at the moment.

I reckon 250-275 is par, with anything above 300 putting England on top.
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 May 2018, 1:29 pm

Weather is set to be better tomorrow, when Pakistan will be presumably batting, and Lord's tends to be best to bat on during days two and three, so I reckon England need at least 300 to be competitive.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 May 2018, 1:49 pm

Amir starting the second session magnificently.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 May 2018, 2:29 pm

Much needed for Pakistan as Bairstow misses one and gets clean bowled.

He made 27, but every run was a struggle. 100/4.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 24 May 2018, 2:43 pm

Well, rumours of Cook's demise etc etc

Or is it merely like surviving the plague but dying of old age anyway; everyone else is so weak that belligerently not dying seems a success.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by king_carlos on Thu 24 May 2018, 3:07 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Well, rumours of Cook's demise etc etc

Or is it merely like surviving the plague but dying of old age anyway; everyone else is so weak that belligerently not dying seems a success.  

As long as Cook is one of the best two openers in England it's up to him whether he still plays IMO. If he called it a day few would criticise him but I'd wager there are runs in the tank yet.

I completely understand the backing of young talent when the talent is there but currently it isn't. Some of the selections, and suggestions, of batsman for recent tests series have smacked of desperation more than reason.

Personally I'd have much rather tried an experienced head such as James Hildreth than most of those selected and discarded over the last two years. Yes it's still a gamble as to whether he scores runs at test level and yes we'd only get a couple of years out of him if he did, but I'd consider it far more likely that we get two good years out of a proven red ball player than the parade of batsman averaging mid-30s in first class cricket to have been tried and discarded.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by robbo277 on Thu 24 May 2018, 3:12 pm

Cook is so crucial from here. For all the talent Stokes and Buttler possess, Cook is the one you'd back to play a match winning knock more often than not.

Haven't watched the game and so not sure the state of the pitch. From the commentary Pakistan have bowled well but England have helped them by playing a bit loose, I think Michael Vaughan said that no-one had got out to a jaffa.

England would have probably been thinking 350-400 at the start of the day, but that might have to be revised down now because of the poor start. One thing in England's favour is that Pakistan don't have the best batting line-up, so an under-par score could be good enough, if the bowlers can make inroads.

Not the most encouraging first half day of a test summer and nothing that would yet suggest that any of our pre-test questions and problem positions have been answered, but a long way to go in this test.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 May 2018, 3:25 pm

What a delivery from Amir to get Cook
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 May 2018, 3:26 pm

Mammoth wicket. Huge.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 24 May 2018, 3:47 pm

Lots of talk about preparation for overseas tours....but how many red ball innings have the England top 7 played between them this season?

And how many of those did they spend much time at the crease in?

Stonemasons one of the few who's actually played a decent amount of County cricket but hasn't been in great shape.

Lots of pressure of Butler and Stokes to transfer their IPL batting form into match saving home test performances now. The stewing think is they look more in control of the situation than anyone else bar Cook so far.

With this tail though 300 looks very optimistic.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 24 May 2018, 4:15 pm

Revisiting that last comment it's a lot to expect from Butter and Bess to save this inning and 200 now looks pretty optimistc

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by robbo277 on Thu 24 May 2018, 4:29 pm

It's a shame the last two specialist batsmen got out one after the other like that, especially to what sounds like a loose shot from Buttler as the second man out.

It's happened to England a few times that they've taken 6 wickets up top but then failed to get 7-10 and really let teams off the hook, but in most instances there will be a set batsmen marshalling them through, taking the majority of the strike when things get tough and giving the tail-ender something to play for.

You'd question whether now it's best for the tail-enders to try and play properly and risk getting a ball that's too good for them, or just start swinging and pray to add 50 between them to get us over 220.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 May 2018, 4:40 pm

That could’ve gone better.

At least they get 20 overs in decent bowling conditions - need to make inroads tonight
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 May 2018, 5:04 pm

Top stuff from Pakistan. I was really impressed with their fielding (not an attribute one normally associates with Pakistan!), urgency and general togetherness on the field. Good all-round bowling attack, too.

England, Cook apart, played like a team low on confidence and ability. No surprises, with a tail as long as that one, and so many players out of form. Further highlights Root's terrible decision this morning; not the first terrible decision he has made at the toss in his tenure as captain!

Task for Pakistan now is a simple one, on paper - bat England out of the game. Score 334+. Target Wood and Bess. Grind England down. Prosper on the fast outfield and better weather conditions that Friday will bring.

(Oh, and you can still get Pakistan at 6/4 to win the Test. Laugh )

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 May 2018, 5:12 pm

The system works. Good review by England.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 May 2018, 6:33 pm

Disappointing mini-session in the field from England. Only Broad carried any real threat; on the whole the bowling was too short, and Pakistan were resolute and watchful (the opposite of England's batters).

Could be a long Friday for England and for Root.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by James100 on Thu 24 May 2018, 7:18 pm

Duty281 wrote:Disappointing mini-session in the field from England. Only Broad carried any real threat; on the whole the bowling was too short, and Pakistan were resolute and watchful (the opposite of England's batters).

Could be a long Friday for England and for Root.

Only saw it in the background at the pub, but whenever I looked over, Wood was bowling well. Was I just lucky in what I saw ofhim?

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 May 2018, 7:33 pm

Mainly solid, but little else from what I saw. Course, he should have had a wicket, but Stokes deflected away a sitter for Root.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by KP_fan on Thu 24 May 2018, 8:16 pm

good to see test match cricket again...I am a big fan of Pak cricket....most talented cricketing country in the world

--After a long time Pak has a balanced side
2 bowling all-rounders in ashraf whose batting skill we saw against Ire & who averages 32 in FC cricket
quite a decent 4th seamer he is  in mid 80s with speed, though with an awkward windmill bowling action

And shadab khan the talented leggie who is a handy batsman too...and they have a WK who can bat and who is also their Captain

--The other interesting aspect of their bowling....all their seamers are front-on bowlers and that's probably why they are more fast medium than fast

front on seamers are less than side on ones generally in international cricket.....and to find 3 and a half in same 11 is rare
Amir is not quite as fully front on as other right arm bowlers

when you are side-on you get more pivot and rotate your body to get speed.....while front-on bowlers have to use more shoulder to generate speed, are able to put the ball more accurately where they want, are more skiddy seamers then swing bowlers

--Eng thought as did Mark Nicolas did at toss.... that the pitch is good for batting and Eng won the toss and batted first
Waqar thought at toss pitch has a tinge of green and Pak would like to bowl first
waqar was right, and pak seamers are quite talented and handy in mid 80s seaming the ball around although Hassan and Amir touch 90mph occasionally I think

--Eng were again leaden footed juts like their first test in NZ
Joe Root is uninspiring formulaic captain.....we'll see how long he lasts

Jack Leach got one test and a new spinner Bess comes in....who looks quite ordinary, but to be fair, there wasn't anything in the pitch today even for Shadab.....and Bess hasn't had an extended spell

In 1980s India's new ball partner for kapil in home tests was a musical chair...every 2 tests a new partner....I hope Eng don't do that with spinners slot

I hope Ali is brought back....at-least he can bat and has a good bowling record too in home tests

--Pak have to bat out of their skin and get close to 300....whihc is a par score but give that Pak a frail batting side, that's about the maximum they can get here.
if they do get about 100 odd lead...they will restrict the 4th inning chase to 200ish
Eng are not out of the game yet.
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by No name Bertie on Thu 24 May 2018, 10:09 pm

I thought the Pakistanis bowled well - there was a lot of movement on the ball.  But England generally batted poorly.  It has been said that the Pakistanis have got their preparations right - three matches against county sides and an international Test Match against Ireland.

When Mohammad Amir got a five year ban and was pilloried for the spot fixing incident - I thought he had been treated over harshly.  He was only 18 years old and it was senior figures in the Pakistani team that got him involved - the Pakistani Captain no less and Pakistan's topped rated senior bowler.  At such an age it is difficult to resist when your Captain & the top bowler talk to you about doing something, which at first glance, seems very minor - bowl two no balls.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by JDizzle on Thu 24 May 2018, 10:56 pm

Think you are pretty harsh on Root and Bess there KPF! Not sure what Root did to give a formulaic approach when England have only bowled 23 overs...

Plus Leach has a broken hand and Bess bowled one over! Harsh to the max to label him ‘ordinary’ already. Especially given he is only 20 too.

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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 25 May 2018, 11:13 am

Anderson needs to be a good yard or so fuller here
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 25 May 2018, 11:15 am

Agreed JD ....but Bess is pretty ordinary.
He's also England's third choice full time spinner, and arguably would be fourth if Rashid hadn't quit.

By county standards he's good, but he's nother a test class player or likely to become a top class one even if he stays within the England set up and is pushed.

Looking at this England side it must make us all a bit squeamish about the amount of abuse the likes of Monty and Treadwell got. And even more so Bell who would walk into this side now but spent almost his entire career being abused as not good enough by the fans.

The toss was by no means a bad decision, there should be help in the conditions for Anderson and Broad in particular even if that green tinge has gone .
The reason Pakistan are ahead is that they've comprehensively outplayed an England side that's full of filler despite not being that good themselves, and not having set the world on fire so far on tour.
That happens in cricket.

But England have to be aspiring to be good enough to win even on a bad day. Currently the weather looks like their biggest hope....although I'd never rule out a sudden Pakistan collapse.


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Re: England summer thread - 2018

Post by KP_fan on Fri 25 May 2018, 11:27 am

JDizzle wrote:Think you are pretty harsh on Root and Bess there KPF! Not sure what Root did to give a formulaic approach when England have only bowled 23 overs...

Plus Leach has a broken hand and Bess bowled one over! Harsh to the max to label him ‘ordinary’ already. Especially given he is only 20 too.

Re: Bess
see my full comment in bold below¨the benefits accorded to him
Jack Leach got one test and a new spinner Bess comes in....who looks quite ordinary, but to be fair, there wasn't anything in the pitch today even for Shadab.....and Bess hasn't had an extended spell


Formulaic is not just as a fielding captain, but in finalizing 11 and batting order

--Its's not good to keep moving himself around giving the dependency of Eng's overall batting on him...especially to No. 3 where he's effectively facing the new ball...if then opener falls early
--or to buy the argument of the selectors that Butler's form in masala IPL on Patta pitches warrants him a test match place on a seaming pitch

such decisions should be astutely thought through and not juts gotten into because selectors / media think it's the obvious thing to do
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Re: England summer thread - 2018

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